Paladin/Favored Soul Gestalt: how does it compare with Core Classes?

[Pleh]

I had a bit of an interesting thought and I was curious to see what people thought about it.

This has to do with Class Tiers, which is why I'm asking here (my best source for people who understand it better than me) though I understand there is sometimes a little bit of dispute when it comes to where classes fall under tiering systems.

Paladins. How I wish they would work like they were supposed to in 3.5 (I guess they kind of DO work they way they were supposed to, but I just wish they were more effectively awesome and less theoretically awesome). I have been working on a pet project of building some sets of house rules to fix some of the less fun problems I run into with 3.5 (the details are beyond the scope of this thread), and I was thinking about things it would be nice to see Paladins do differently. First of all, I'd like to commend WotC for giving them a suite of Smite Spells in 5e. I think that was a brilliant way to address the unintentional relative weakness of smite in 3.5.

But I had a funny idea pop into my head the other day and I wanted to hear some feedback. My train of thought went something like, "Fighters derive power from mastering various martial skills and abilities. Monks derive power from mastering themselves and forging their whole being into a weapon, a tool, and more. Paladins, rather than gaining power from self-mastery, rely on force of self. They rely on simply BEING a force to be reckoned with. This explains why, compared to other classes, they are more devastated by experiencing a period of self-doubt, compromising on their values, or even betraying their cause. Something put a Paladin in this world for a reason and their very existence has weight unlike their peers."

My next thought was, "... Sounds like I'm describing a Favored Soul (at least fluff-wise)."

In terms of their fluff and story, they have a lot in common. So much so that it made me consider what it might look like if I gestalted the two classes. To my understanding, both classes are considered poor by tiering standards, which made me consider the possibility of gestalting them for a homebrew setting and considering the gestalted combination to be equivalent to a non-gestalted core class.

I sat down to give the idea a small amount of research. They'd have nearly perfect class stats: d10 HD, perfect BAB, and perfect in all saves. That in and of itself is nothing to turn your nose up at (and fits well with the concept that these characters are meant to be in and of themselves a force of nature). They are proficient with simple and martial weapons plus any exotic weapon their deity favors. They are proficient with all types of armor and shields (except tower) and because Favored Soul is a Divine caster, they can wear full plate and still cast like a sorcerer with no spell chance failure.

On the subjects of spells, they'll have to prepare their paladin spells, but have access to their favored soul spells at will. I kind of like the idea that they prepare half their spells (especially if I homebrew a couple 5e Smite Spells into the paladin spell list) at the start of the day and have a few Favored Soul backups in case of emergencies.

Skills would be barely effected as both classes get 2+int and have almost identical class skills. The Favored Soul would gain a couple skills to be better with animals and the Paladin would learn a thing or two about arcane stuff.

The other class features for both classes.... seem almost forgettable to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what matters to this class I'm describing is a hero with nearly perfect stats that can cast magic in full plate and then smite. The rest of it doesn't seem to me to register on the scale of tiering.

---

I'm not saying this "fixes" either class. I honestly don't have enough information to measure what effect making this gestalt into a core class would have on the game, which is where I was hoping you guys might come in.

What do you think? Did I misuse the Gestalt rules or forget something important here?

I guess it would be helpful to mention that my goal here is to help making Paladin gameplay more fun by making them feel more impactful in gameplay. That being said, I would be on the side of ruling that by using Gestalt on Paladin, they gain the lack of Alignment restriction from Favored Soul, as losing that ridiculous handicap is most certainly gaining some of the best features from the other class.

[Xuldarinar]

Keep in mind it has been years since I looked at the favored soul, but...



You'd have a paladin with Fight bonus feats, Wings, access to up to 9th level spells as a spontaneous spellcaster, and a slight Wisdom dependency.

You'd have a favored soul with full BaB, a distinct healing ability, Cha to saves, and the ability to smite people.


They would work reasonably well together, and.. I've honestly never seen the favored soul as that bad a class. Not the best, but properly managed it did its job. I have been making archetypes and alternate classes to update 3.5 content to pathfinder, maybe the favored soul should be next..

[Red Fel]

Actually, Xul raises an interesting point - there is a spell-less Paladin ACF. Actually, there are two. They're generally frowned upon, because spells > everything, but if you're gestalting with a divine spellcasting class, you're really not losing anything. The one I'd advise looking at is the Holy Warrior from Complete Champion; you no longer gain Paladin spellcasting, but instead gain bonus feats, including Extra Smiting and Improved Smiting, Extra Turning, Power Attack, and others.

But yeah. It's definitely a flavorful concept - you're basically taking a weaker-but-melee-oriented Cleric, and a weaker-but-spontaneous Cleric, and mashing them together. The Charisma synergy between the two classes is nice, although the Paladin chassis is still a bit MAD.

One problem that the Favored Soul faces is the Wings ability. Ignoring the fact that it comes at level 17, well after you could get magical flight or some kind of graft for Ex flight, Savage Species indicates that having armor modified for unusual body types (e.g. wings) may increase the cost. The language of the ability indicates that you're not just gaining the magical ability to fly, you're gaining actual, physical wings; on a heavy armor class like the Paladin, that's a painful expense.

All that said, you say your goal is to make Paladins "more impactful." What does that mean, exactly?

[Grim Reader]

Favored Soul is tier 2, one of the strongest classes in the game.

The only reason to boost it is to bring it up to tier1, to equal the Cleric. And this won't do that. Cha to saves is the big boost for the FS.

[Jack_Simth]

I had a bit of an interesting thought and I was curious to see what people thought about it.

This has to do with Class Tiers, which is why I'm asking here (my best source for people who understand it better than me) though I understand there is sometimes a little bit of dispute when it comes to where classes fall under tiering systems.
It's still tier-2, with the Favored Soul doing the heavy lifting to get it there. It's a stronger tier-2 than a vanilla FS, but it's still the same basic game-breaking methods.

[Gnaeus]

Favored Soul is tier 2, one of the strongest classes in the game.

The only reason to boost it is to bring it up to tier1, to equal the Cleric. And this won't do that. Cha to saves is the big boost for the FS.

That and a pool of turn attempts for DMM or other cheese.

I agree that definitionally, it is still T2. No question. But it would vault it from bottom T2 to top of T2. Full BAB, cha to saves, cleric casting and smites might combine to make it the best melee in the game for some levels. Which is not the height of OP power, but isn't nothing

[Draconium]

One problem that the Favored Soul faces is the Wings ability. Ignoring the fact that it comes at level 17, well after you could get magical flight or some kind of graft for Ex flight, Savage Species indicates that having armor modified for unusual body types (e.g. wings) may increase the cost. The language of the ability indicates that you're not just gaining the magical ability to fly, you're gaining actual, physical wings; on a heavy armor class like the Paladin, that's a painful expense.

In addition, there is a pair of feats found in Races of the Dragon - Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight Wings - that would imply that if you have physical wings, you can only fly in light armor and/or while carrying a light load. This is because Reinforced Wings increases it to Medium armor/load, while Heavyweight increases them to Heavy armor/load. This would simply add a feat tax on an already feat-starved chassis, if not for the fact that you don't get them until so late in the game, they're practically meaningless.

@OP: As others have said, the result of said gestalt would most likely sit at a high Tier 2 - as a spontaneous caster, it doesn't have the sheer versatility of a Cleric or Wizard, but is still a fairly powerful class. The d10 HD, full BAB, and all good saves are just icing on the cake. However, it would end up still being rather MAD; You'd still be a front-liner, meaning you need decent Str and Con, and you need Cha and Wis to cast your spells. Not to mention, most of the class features you get after level 5 aren't really worth it, usually because of how late you'd be getting them.

[Troacctid]

The second coming of druid. It would either be the #1 or #2 most powerful core class. Seriously. Special mounts are no joke, your chassis is crazy good, you're pretty much Wisdom-SAD with Serenity, and Battle Blessing is extremely overpowered, like, it's just completely unfair.

[Gnaeus]

Not to mention, most of the class features you get after level 5 aren't really worth it, usually because of how late you'd be getting them.

That's kind of true of a great many classes. But looking at all the class features:

All weapons/armor. - not bad. FS should have had this anyway. Helps a little w/MAD.
Detect Evil - at will non useless level 1 spell. Situational
Aura of good- useless
Smite evil: probably equal to an extra level 1 spell, and not an amazing one.
Divine Grace: virtual immunity to saves. Fantastic
Lay on hands: probably just saves wand charges. Still, you have Cha synergy so it's probably better than on vanilla Paladin
Aura of courage: would be great if you were ever going to fail will saves anyway. But fear effects are often save or loses, and it's an area buff. Not useless
Divine health: worth trading away. Saves aren't a big issue.
Turn undead: Fantastic. A lot of cleric tricks just opened up. The reduced turning level doesn't hurt much. Also helps get PRCs.
Special mount: Fantastic. It shares your buffs, so there are a lot of useful tricks available. Almost as good as an animal companion
Remove disease: a free spell, but not one you would have taken. Saves buying a scroll maybe.
Paladin Casting: very good. Gives you a range of low level utility spells. Saves buying some cheap wands. If Battle Blessing is available, a significant action economy benefit.

[Pleh]

All that said, you say your goal is to make Paladins "more impactful." What does that mean, exactly?

Yes, I was having some trouble finding the right words to express this more clearly.

I find the most fun to a character when they have the right balance of being effective in combat and being flavorful out of combat. Giving a Paladin that extra edge of "born for a purpose" on top of whatever creed they follow gives them plenty of potential for flavor out of combat. It was in the fighting ring that the Paladin was falling behind in the party.

I'm not sure where I got the idea that the FS wasn't that great if it's Tier 2. It was an impression I had in the sea of disorganized D&D knowledge rolling around in my head. Maybe I had the wrong impression based on the small collection of virtually useless class features FS gets beyond magic.

Getting back to your question, a D&D heroic character should be impactful in the story. This means changing the course of events for better or worse. This can be done with a convincing word, an underhanded trick, or by forcefully removing other characters from the story. When I say, "more impactful" I do mean giving them better statistical odds in combat (effectively raising their tier, if possible), but the reason I hesitated to just say it that way was that I didn't want to encourage responses like, "If you want to improve the paladin's tier with homebrew, just give him X, Y, and Z and call it a day" as that kind of response could take away from the analysis of the gestalted combination.

[Troacctid]

Favored Soul is a legitimately powerful class. It just gets a lot of flak because cleric is right there, doing the same thing while also being obviously better.

[Red Fel]

Yes, I was having some trouble finding the right words to express this more clearly.

I find the most fun to a character when they have the right balance of being effective in combat and being flavorful out of combat. Giving a Paladin that extra edge of "born for a purpose" on top of whatever creed they follow gives them plenty of potential for flavor out of combat. It was in the fighting ring that the Paladin was falling behind in the party.

There are two sides to this comment. First, much of what you're saying is flavor. "Born for a purpose," things like that, can be applied to any class. The other side, however, is combat utility. And let's be clear - aside from the wings and two weapon feats, FS doesn't lend much to melee combat. What it lends is spellcasting, to such a degree that, as others have mentioned, it basically overshadows Paladin. It's not a Paladin with FS spells, it's an FS with some Paladin class features.

And that's a major point. You're not so much making the Paladin relevant in combat; you're creating an FS who passes as a Paladin.


I'm not sure where I got the idea that the FS wasn't that great if it's Tier 2. It was an impression I had in the sea of disorganized D&D knowledge rolling around in my head. Maybe I had the wrong impression based on the small collection of virtually useless class features FS gets beyond magic.

Probably from the fact that it's constantly compared with the T1 Cleric. The Cleric is pretty perfect - melee ability, spellcasting, no spell failure, DMM shenanigans. Clerics cover every base. Comparing the FS with the Cleric is just like comparing the Sorcerer with the Wizard. Sorcs are really quite good; the Mailman is the classic illustration of how to make a shockingly effective one. But the Sorcerer stands perpetually in the shadow of the definitive T1 class, the Wizard, which can literally do anything at any time if it has had time to prepare. Clerics have the same effect on Favored Souls, with the added wrinkle that, unlike there is for the Sorcerer, there isn't an abundance of supplemental material for the FS. There's plenty of content that makes a Sorc even better; not quite so much for the FS.

Still not a bad class by most metrics. Just never quite as awesome as its big brother.


Getting back to your question, a D&D heroic character should be impactful in the story. This means changing the course of events for better or worse. This can be done with a convincing word, an underhanded trick, or by forcefully removing other characters from the story. When I say, "more impactful" I do mean giving them better statistical odds in combat (effectively raising their tier, if possible), but the reason I hesitated to just say it that way was that I didn't want to encourage responses like, "If you want to improve the paladin's tier with homebrew, just give him X, Y, and Z and call it a day" as that kind of response could take away from the analysis of the gestalted combination.

Well, let's look at three ways to make a Paladin more "impactful" on the story, and let's see whether the FS gestalt accomplishes them.
Combat. While it does not make him more effective at melee combat (aside from two weapon feats and wings), it gives the Paladin spellcasting, which makes him more combat-effective overall. That said, he's basically a Sorcerer in armor, as opposed to a warrior with magic.
Skills. The FS has only 2+Int skill points per level, and a limited number of class skills. As such, it doesn't substantially impact the Paladin's skill usage. That said, it can cast Guidance of the Avatar, which grants a +20 to a single skill check, so... Spellcasting again.
RP. This is a fudge area. As both are divine champion types, there's not much that FS can add to Paladin in terms of RP potential, other than the feature you point out - the idea of being directly chosen and empowered by a deity. All that said, the gestalt doesn't open up RP potential the way it would if, say, you gestalted Paladin with Monk (some sort of devotee of sacred martial arts), Ranger (champion of justice and nature), or something else outside of the usual divine wheelhouse.
Ultimately, that's what it boils down to. Apart from one line of fluff - chosen by a deity, a factor that any hero can claim (some with an element of truth to it) - the key thing that FS brings to the table is spells. And frankly, that disrupts the fluff of the Paladin. He's no longer the chosen warrior of a deity, he's a holy wizard with a shield and sword. Why is he even wearing armor, if he can simply float in the air and hurl divine judgment?

Does spellcasting let the Paladin have a greater impact on the story? Mechanically, certainly; spells are the ultimate trump card. Overcome skill challenges, social challenges, and combat challenges. There's a spell for everything. The question isn't whether FS lets a Paladin have a greater impact; the question is whether he's still a Paladin.

[Erit]

In addition, there is a pair of feats found in Races of the Dragon - Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight Wings - that would imply that if you have physical wings, you can only fly in light armor and/or while carrying a light load. This is because Reinforced Wings increases it to Medium armor/load, while Heavyweight increases them to Heavy armor/load. This would simply add a feat tax on an already feat-starved chassis, if not for the fact that you don't get them until so late in the game, they're practically meaningless.

A counter-implication is that Favored Souls are natively proficient with Medium armor, and classes usually aren't proficient in armor if it would interfere with their abilities. Druid is the only one I know of to do that kind of thing, and the spiritual oath is halfway meaningless anyway. But RoTD came out around two years after CompDiv, and in keeping with tradition there was no mention of effects on other books, so it's wide open for DM arbitration.

[Gnaeus]

And let's be clear - aside from the wings and two weapon feats, FS doesn't lend much to melee combat. What it lends is spellcasting, to such a degree that, as others have mentioned, it basically overshadows Paladin.

Combat. While it does not make him more effective at melee combat (aside from two weapon feats and wings), it gives the Paladin spellcasting, which makes him more combat-effective overall. That said, he's basically a Sorcerer in armor, as opposed to a warrior with magic.


I would say FS casting lends tons to melee combat. Paladin was T5 because it is not always even very good in melee, having less core melee joy than fighter and the same kinds of traps. A little DMM persisted righteous might goes a long, long way.

And one of the biggest paladin class features is the mount. And the mount has share spells...

[John Longarrow]

For myself, I'd take a look at the Ruby Knight Vindicator. Re-fluff with paladin abilities.

This would turn Paladin from being a core class with low level "Paladins" running around to a prestige class that represents those who are already the walking, talking symbol of divine might who've taken up the mantle.

Note: I'd also look at the prestige paladin in UA.

They won't be as good at spell casting as a straight cleric/FS, but they are the powerhouse in melee.

[T.G. Oskar]

Most of what I'd say has been already said, but I'd like to give it a different point of view.

Indeed, in the overall case of mechanics, you're not altering much; the Favored Soul is already good, but not as much as the Cleric, and adding Paladin spells and class features won't do much in the end to overshadow the Cleric. As said, it's like comparing a Sorcerer with a Wizard; the Sorcerer has the same spell access, but it doesn't have the flexibility to choose which spell to cast at the right time. What you're doing, though, is adding...say, Hexblade or Duskblade elements, which serve to reinforce physical combat and add their own tricks, but doesn't provide much to the Favored Soul to make it equal to the Cleric in power, because you're not really adding that much versatility.

You do, however, add some flexibility, because Paladins prepare spells; a key distinction in the comparison. Anyone with proper system mastery (not a newbie) will see the Paladin/FS gestalt and notice a few things. First, the class gestalt is still MAD - Strength to attack and damage, Wisdom for Paladin spells and the save DC of Favored Soul spells, Charisma for saves, smite and Favored Soul spellcasting overall, and Constitution to survive. The Favored Soul could ignore Wis and take mostly buffing spells, and wade into combat as a less-flexible Clericzilla; what you're doing is forcing a FS to spread its distribution into Strength AND Wisdom as well, which is a minus. Second, when you have two spell lists that act completely different (FS' spells are Cha-based, but have their spell DCs based on Wisdom and cast spontaneously; Paladin spells are Wis-based and prepared), you notice their benefits. Paladins add a few spells FS's can't cast, but are mostly meant to boost its combat skills, or the Paladin's class features; you still rely on FS for your heavy casting, which is still limited. Third, you're adding a class with severe feat starvation, forcing you to split your feats even further. Fourth, the class features of both classes don't overlap, but don't synergize either - Divine Grace being the sole exception.

This leads to one potential good build - Wis 14, balanced Str and Con, poor Cha, forcefully Human. That helps a bit on feat starvation. Then, you choose your Favored Soul spells based on their versatility (what spells you'll expect to use more than once, because of flexibility - the Summon Monster line is a good example), and choose Paladin spells based on how they add to your build...which will most likely be aiming for a Clericzilla. Thus, you may expect the Paladin||FS getting spells like Shield of Faith, Conviction, Righteous Might, Heal, maybe Prayer (it's a luck-based buff, so it stacks, plus a debuff that has no saving throw - always useful), etc., then prepare Paladin spells based on those few occasions you have need of them (say, maybe Righteous Aura?), and then build for a solid high damge build (say, Ubercharger), choosing your few feats carefully. Or, Holy Warrior and choose feats wisely.

Now, let's see something different. What if, instead of Paladin, you chose Fighter? There'd be little change, except now you'd have more feats, but no Divine Grace and no external spell list. Can you notice any difference that makes the Paladin superior? Most likely Turn Undead (but see feat starvation). the mount (which is pretty solid), and very little else - Smites require their own kind of optimization and are often sub-par, Lay on Hands is more of an emergency heal, and the rest isn't particularly impressive. With substitution levels and ACFs, things differ - you could potentially have an A-game Paladin with added spells (but no DMM shenanigans or divine feats), but you could have a nasty Dungeon Crasher with a spell load-out specific to boosting Strength checks, and still have feats to spare for both your fighting style and needed feats for the Favored Soul. In the end, both are really similar, but neither hold a candle to the Cleric, because both are essentially boosting something that the Cleric can do, when it needs to do it, but doesn't have the flexibility to change to a different task otherwise. Between each other, the Paladin would provide some synergy and extra spells on exchange for less feats, or synergy and Divine feats in exchange for slightly less Fighter feats. In the end, what someone with a good amount of system mastery would see, and which is the conclusion of most of the posters, is that the gestalt mostly makes the Favored Soul have a slightly better chassis for combat, superior saves and a handful of nice spells (and access to some cool feats), but doesn't fundamentally change the Favored Soul into having enough flexibility to matter.

Now, fluff-wise...there is some overlap, but nothing on the idea of "a Paladin with Favored Soul spells stops being a Paladin". I'd consider it as the Avatar, from the Ultima series, if he followed a God instead of the Eight Virtues - he'd be expected to be an exemplar, as the deity of this character would bless him not only with the powers of a Paladin, but imbue him with his own power (the Favored Soul spells, including the wings). You'd expect someone like Heironeous, which is essentially the quintessential Paladin god, to have only ONE of them in existence, and the character would be the successor of the current one. The deity has its reason - s/he expects a lot of the character, but because the deity knows the character can do it, so s/he gives him even more powers; the two purposes overlap. The "holy wizard with sword and shield" can be said of a Cleric, which behaves more like a Wizard than the Favored Soul, and in this case, the flavor of "chosen amongst the chosen" kinda edges out.

[Red Fel]

I would say FS casting lends tons to melee combat. Paladin was T5 because it is not always even very good in melee, having less core melee joy than fighter and the same kinds of traps. A little DMM persisted righteous might goes a long, long way.

Key distinction, though: Righteous Might isn't an inherent property of FS. It's a spell, which any spellcaster with access to Righteous Might can use.

That's what I was saying. FS, inherently, lends very little to the Paladin's combat abilities, aside from spells. Can spells improve combat ability? Yes. Spells > everything. But that doesn't mean that FS is making Paladin better at combat; it means that a spell, which could be accessed by any number of means, is making the Paladin better at combat.

Now, that said, keep in mind that the only reason the FS can cast a DMM Persist Righteous Might is because of the Paladin's Turn Undead; FS doesn't have it natively. So that's a thing, too.


In the end, what someone with a good amount of system mastery would see, and which is the conclusion of most of the posters, is that the gestalt mostly makes the Favored Soul have a slightly better chassis for combat, superior saves and a handful of nice spells (and access to some cool feats), but doesn't fundamentally change the Favored Soul into having enough flexibility to matter.

Very much this.

The thing is, when gestalting a very high-tier class with a very low-tier class, all you're really doing is taking the superior class, and tacking on the inferior's class features, BAB, and saves. You're basically replacing the inferior tier with the superior tier. Which is fine. But it means that, mechanically, the inferior class will only very rarely add something truly unique and beneficial; generally, all you get are better numbers and one or two useful tricks.

That said, the other side on which you're focusing on is fluff, and as Raijin Oskar points out, there's a feast to be had there. This concept feels like it would need to be pretty unique. All Paladins represent law and justice and goodness, and some also represent the interests of their patron deities. So a Favored Soul // Paladin would have to go an extra mile, flavor-wise, to say that not only is this a champion of law and justice and goodness, and not only does he represent his patron, but that patron has gone and extra-special annointed this Paladin, above and beyond other Paladins or even Clerics. It basically has to be incredibly unique in the world, just to justify itself.

[Gnaeus]

Key distinction, though: Righteous Might isn't an inherent property of FS. It's a spell, which any spellcaster with access to Righteous Might can use.

That's what I was saying. FS, inherently, lends very little to the Paladin's combat abilities, aside from spells. Can spells improve combat ability? Yes. Spells > everything. But that doesn't mean that FS is making Paladin better at combat; it means that a spell, which could be accessed by any number of means, is making the Paladin better at combat.

Now, that said, keep in mind that the only reason the FS can cast a DMM Persist Righteous Might is because of the Paladin's Turn Undead; FS doesn't have it natively. So that's a thing.

If spells could be accessed for free, your point would be meaningful. But they can't.

Maybe a paladin could access righteous might. And maybe he can't. Maybe he could get a custom item made. Maybe he could buy a wand and use it with cross class UMD on a skill lacking class. And maybe he couldn't. He can't guarantee it. The FS/pal can.

But more than that, if he can get it, he can't get it for free. The ability to cast Righteous Might several times per day without resource expenditure is not a thing paladin can duplicate. And the 20 k it would cost will go elsewhere. The FS/pal will have bonuses to hit, damage, and AC due to GMW and magic vestment. Could he get those spells some other way? Or just buy an item with more +s? In some games yes. But even if he could, unless he could get them for free, he cannot duplicate the melee benefits of Favored Soul.

I also disagree strongly with much of what Oscar wrote. He said FS/Paladin features don't synergize except for Divine Grace. I cannot think of a more false statement. Mount gets both share spells and share saving throws. For a class with a list of buffs and all good saves, that synergizes amazingly well. Turn Undead has huge synergy with divine charisma based casting classes. Looking in the other direction, the FS good saves make paladin better able to stand in battle without dropping to fireballs or being dominated. So does energy resistance. Wizard dropped a fireball and couldn't exclude you? Save for half with good reflex and divine grace, then subtract 10 and shake it off. Weapon focus and spec aren't great feats. But they are decent prerequisites and just by themselves they do actually help you hit and damage things.

I also disagree with the MAD complaint. The FS/paladin is less MAD than a DMM cleric (who likely also wants a decent Cha) or a vanilla FS. Your stats should be Cha/str/con or wis/dex or int. You only need 14 wisdom, and you don't need that until 15th level. FS was a secondary combatant anyway, so adding paladin reduces your need for Str because of better BAB, reduces your need for dex because of heavy armor and divine grace, reduces your need for con because of higher base HP and divine grace, and reduces your need for Wisdom because of fear immunity and divine grace. Your charisma is doing triple duty, giving you spells, saves, and turn attempts. (And smites/LoH, pretty junk but will probably get used anyway)

Severe feat starvation? Hardly. There is literally no problem the paladin has that can be fixed with feats better than it can be fixed with 9 levels of cleric casting and the above synergies. DMM persist & Battle blessing are the only must haves. I'd probably want companion spellbond as well, but you are starting from a base of being more superior to any mundane melee than the standard CoDzilla already is.

[Red Fel]

If spells could be accessed for free, your point would be meaningful. But they can't.

They can't be accessed for free. But they can be accessed by various means, through various classes and magic items, and so forth. Anything that is a property of a spell, as opposed to a property of a class, can be gained by a number of means other than taking levels in that class. Thus, it's not that FS specifically grants prowess in martial combat, but rather that FS provides the option of one way to access a spell that grants prowess.


Maybe a paladin could access righteous might. And maybe he can't. Maybe he could get a custom item made. Maybe he could buy a wand and use it with cross class UMD on a skill lacking class. And maybe he couldn't. He can't guarantee it. The FS/pal can.

The FS//Paladin can guarantee it if he chooses Righteous Might for his spells known. The FS, as a spontaneous caster, chooses from a finite list. Again, spells like Righteous Might aren't an inherent aspect of the class; they are an option available to the class.


But more than that, if he can get it, he can't get it for free. The ability to cast Righteous Might several times per day without resource expenditure is not a thing paladin can duplicate. And the 20 k it would cost will go elsewhere. The FS/pal will have bonuses to hit, damage, and AC due to GMW and magic vestment. Could he get those spells some other way? Or just buy an item with more +s? In some games yes. But even if he could, unless he could get them for free, he cannot duplicate the melee benefits of Favored Soul.

If you can take levels of FS, you can take levels of another class. If you can take levels of any class with access to the Cleric spell list - including Cleric - you can access this spell. So, yes, this Paladin could access spells like Righteous Might through several means.


I also disagree strongly with much of what Oscar wrote. He said FS/Paladin features don't synergize except for Divine Grace. I cannot think of a more false statement. Mount gets both share spells and share saving throws. For a class with a list of buffs and all good saves, that synergizes amazingly well. Turn Undead has huge synergy with divine charisma based casting classes. Looking in the other direction, the FS good saves make paladin better able to stand in battle without dropping to fireballs or being dominated. So does energy resistance. Wizard dropped a fireball and couldn't exclude you? Save for half with good reflex and divine grace, then subtract 10 and shake it off. Weapon focus and spec aren't great feats. But they are decent prerequisites and just by themselves they do actually help you hit and damage things.

Agreed here.


I also disagree with the MAD complaint. The FS/paladin is less MAD than a DMM cleric (who likely also wants a decent Cha) or a vanilla FS. Your stats should be Cha/str/con or wis/dex or int. You only need 14 wisdom, and you don't need that until 15th level. FS was a secondary combatant anyway, so adding paladin reduces your need for Str because of better BAB, reduces your need for dex because of heavy armor and divine grace, reduces your need for con because of higher base HP and divine grace, and reduces your need for Wisdom because of fear immunity and divine grace. Your charisma is doing triple duty, giving you spells, saves, and turn attempts. (And smites/LoH, pretty junk but will probably get used anyway)

Disagreed here. While it is true that, with the right buffs, you are less reliant on Str, you make a lot of assumptions about how to play the class. If you're playing both classes to their utmost, you need your physical stats for Paladin's melee abilities; you need Wis for Paladin's spells, Cha for FS' spells and Paladin's various abilities. You're still MAD; the only difference is that now your Cha is more useful.

You could argue that the build basically turns you into an armored FS. In that case, you're right; become a straight-up spellcaster, and only wade into combat when you need to, with Righteous Might up. But that's not the character the OP was describing. The OP was describing a Paladin with more flavor and spells, not an FS with Paladin features.


Severe feat starvation? Hardly. There is literally no problem the paladin has that can be fixed with feats better than it can be fixed with 9 levels of cleric casting and the above synergies. DMM persist & Battle blessing are the only must haves. I'd probably want companion spellbond as well, but you are starting from a base of being more superior to any mundane melee than the standard CoDzilla already is.

Again, same problem - you're describing a combat-oriented buffbot FS, not a Paladin with spells. Sure, buffs preclude the need for Power Attack or Extra Smiting, because you don't need to use those abilities; at that point, as I've said, you're a spellcaster who juices, not a divine champion warrior with a spell selection.

Would it be suboptimal to play this character with melee feats? Of course it would! But it would fit the concept.

[Grim Reader]

Just going to note that spontaneous spellcasters get turn undead for two feats.