Druid/Paladin Flavor Fluff

[Afgncaap5]

If you were an ancient and highly respected order of Druid/Paladins, what would you look like? I've got some players heading through the Eldeen Reaches in Eberron, and was trying to come up with a few memorable factions for them to encounter even if not violently. I had the idea while thinking about Eberron's allegedly lax view on alignment and the the feat that lets Paladins multiclass (a feat which appears to exist for, among other reasons, the creation of unusual orders of knights.)

One weird wrinkle: I've often heard it said that Eberron has a pretty lax view on alignment, and it's true that if you want a Frollo you can have a Cleric with an alignment that's way different from their deity's, and the book specifically mentions things like good chromatic dragons and vampires being a possibility, even if a rare one, but... well, looking again, I'm not finding a blanket wash on alignment restrictions like I'd assumed. In fact, the section on Paladins in the ECS specifically says that paladins need to hold to goodness and virtue like no one else. It doesn't mention Law, but I think the implication is there.

So... a member of an order of druid paladins would need to maintain both the lawful implacability that makes a paladin do the right thing no matter what, and also the neutral indifference of nature that allows it to thrive, even under Eberron's alignments. Am I reading that right? I mean... I'm gonna create this order of druidic paladins either way, I just wanna know if I'm going by the book and not seeing it or if I'm, as I suspect, just hand waving the alignment issue in the name of the Rule of Cool.

[LibraryOgre]

Well, the first question is, what general alignment do you want them to have? Are they mostly LG, with some LN and NG, or are they mostly NG, or mostly LN?

I think the easiest way is to go with a LG order of druidic paladins. Ones who seek to build ordered environments in harmony with nature. So, their goal is sustainable agriculture and mining (perhaps aided by magic), careful population control, and other such intersections of the interest of society and the interest of the natural world. Their interest in balance is real, but it's to allow good to flourish and inspire others to avoid evil.

[Afgncaap5]

Well, the first question is, what general alignment do you want them to have? Are they mostly LG, with some LN and NG, or are they mostly NG, or mostly LN?

I think the easiest way is to go with a LG order of druidic paladins. Ones who seek to build ordered environments in harmony with nature. So, their goal is sustainable agriculture and mining (perhaps aided by magic), careful population control, and other such intersections of the interest of society and the interest of the natural world. Their interest in balance is real, but it's to allow good to flourish and inspire others to avoid evil.

Definitely Lawful Good. I think the smattering of NG and LN people would have a balance toward NG as well. Being aided by magic is one of the things that feels like it'd come up in the Reaches given the attitudes of the Ashbound.

I think the biggest visual issue would be that of armor. Probably lots of leafweave and bronzewood at work. I've also got an image of branches on helmets made to resemble antlers.

[Karl Aegis]

I feel like I would be a wandering camel salesman who sells camels at crazy low prices.

[BowStreetRunner]

So... a member of an order of druid paladins would need to maintain both the lawful implacability that makes a paladin do the right thing no matter what, and also the neutral indifference of nature that allows it to thrive, even under Eberron's alignments. Am I reading that right? I mean... I'm gonna create this order of druidic paladins either way, I just wanna know if I'm going by the book and not seeing it or if I'm, as I suspect, just hand waving the alignment issue in the name of the Rule of Cool.

One of the more interesting interpretations of Neutrality that I've encountered among D&D players likens it to Taoism, which posits that distinctions between good and bad as well as law and chaos are perceptual instead of real, which lines up pretty well, all things considered. However, within Taoism there is a belief that all things have a purpose and there is a natural place in the world for everything. If that is the case, and a believer in this Neutrality understood that they were born to be a Paladin - if that were their correct natural place in the order of all things, then they might accept their purpose as natural and embrace it, thus merging the overall neutral tenets of the druids with the lawful good role of the paladins.

[Afgncaap5]

One of the more interesting interpretations of Neutrality that I've encountered among D&D players likens it to Taoism, which posits that distinctions between good and bad as well as law and chaos are perceptual instead of real, which lines up pretty well, all things considered. However, within Taoism there is a belief that all things have a purpose and there is a natural place in the world for everything. If that is the case, and a believer in this Neutrality understood that they were born to be a Paladin - if that were their correct natural place in the order of all things, then they might accept their purpose as natural and embrace it, thus merging the overall neutral tenets of the druids with the lawful good role of the paladins.

I can agree with that in general, though that's starting to veer into an overly concrete definition of the word paladin that wouldn't really mesh well with how the people in this game world saw themselves. I can definitely get "The natural order is for me to honorable, virtuous, and just and to be unyielding in these pursuits" but "paladin" itself is a term that isn't as universal for NPCs as it is for players. (It might be better to say that these aren't druidic paladins, but they are instead a different class that behaves mechanically in every way as if they were druids and paladins. Or, as they'd see it in-universe, "Those <whatever we call 'em> warriors are scary. They're changing shape and casting spells like the wardens of the wood, mowing down undead and bandits like the silver flame's knights, and then looking a little too closely at my cart. I'm just lucky he didn't turn into a bloodhound to smell the barkmelon I need to sneak to Thrane, I'm gonna have enough trouble bribing the border patrol.")

[KillingAScarab]

Dragon Magazine #310 featured a number of alternate paladins, one of which was true neutral: Incarnate (not Magic of Incarnum Incarnate). That particular paladin would have to pick two "opposed" planes/energy types (either fire and water/cold or air/electricity and earth/acid) which determine the two types of damage their elemental burst would do instead of turning undead. They would get an elemental minion rather than a special paladin mount. They were focused on balancing the material plane by keeping the inner planes from exerting too much influence on it. Incarnate and some of the other alternate paladins in that issue also included avoiding excessive travel to other planes as part of their paladin code, so even if air/electricity was one of your planes/energy types you should only visit the Elemental Plane of Air on business or you would Fall. They were also supposed to be seeking balance between civilization and the natural world, but with 2 skill points per level, that always seemed like more flavor text than anything you could accomplish mechanically without NPC support. The spell list was a little different, too. I don't know that Incarnate is exactly what you're looking for, but alternate paladins might be a start.

[Afgncaap5]

Dragon Magazine #310 featured a number of alternate paladins, one of which was true neutral: Incarnate (not Magic of Incarnum Incarnate). That particular paladin would have to pick two "opposed" planes/energy types (either fire and water/cold or air/electricity and earth/acid) which determine the two types of damage their elemental burst would do instead of turning undead. They would get an elemental minion rather than a special paladin mount. They were focused on balancing the material plane by keeping the inner planes from exerting too much influence on it. Incarnate and some of the other alternate paladins in that issue also included avoiding excessive travel to other planes as part of their paladin code, so even if air/electricity was one of your planes/energy types you should only visit the Elemental Plane of Air on business or you would Fall. They were also supposed to be seeking balance between civilization and the natural world, but with 2 skill points per level, that always seemed like more flavor text than anything you could accomplish mechanically without NPC support. The spell list was a little different, too. I don't know that Incarnate is exactly what you're looking for, but alternate paladins might be a start.

Interesting... I might look into those. I think for right now I'll just stick with baseline paladins and druids, but that's a fun idea. :smallcool: Mainly I was curious to see if people had ideas for flavor and fluff instead of rule alternatives (the recurring theme of maintaining a balance between the natural world and civilization seems to be very strong here.)

[Hiro Quester]

I played a gnome Druid with a level of monk recently, so played as Lawful Neutral, but allied to the laws of nature, rather than the laws of humanoid societies, and completely indifferent to humanoid ideals of good and evil.

So the Lawful implacability of a paladin with the Neutral indifference of a Druid. I wrote the following for my party members to explain my PC's Lawful Neutral Druidyness (channeling a little Nietzschean "Will to Power").

I could easily see an interesting Lawful Neutral Druid/Paladin society formed along these lines (attending towards the long-term good of the continuation of the Cycle of Life and the Law of the Jungle, but more indifferent to the good and evil of humanoid interactions).

Maybe they should be high elves.


A druid doesn't have to be a treehugging hippie, protecting all creatures from harm. That would be totally naive.

The basic Law of the Jungle is exploitation, the strong using the weak for their own purposes. Everything in the Great Cycle of Life is a matter of living creatures using (often eating) other living creatures, and eventually being used themselves. The most powerful predator will eventually be old and weak, and will become food for others. In the meantime, he will use his power to exploit others as he wishes, for his own ends.

Hunting and killing a creature often needs to be done, because you have to eat. As long as you are not wasteful or needlessly cruel, and use the creature with gratitude for the service it provides, then treating an animal as a means to your own ends is just How Nature Works. Some things die so others can live, and so the ecosystem can continue.

Nature isn't all sunshine and hummingbirds and baby seals and flowers. It's also a mother leopard slightly wounding a gazelle, then giving the terrified and suffering gazelle to her cubs to catch and release, over and over and over again, because the cubs need to practice hunting. It's a wasp laying its eggs inside the body of a still-living paralyzed caterpillar, so it's larva can eat the caterpillar alive when they hatch. Nature is a forest fire that incinerates all the creatures and plants in a valley, so that the soil is fertile for the next generation of trees to grow back. Nature is a herd starving to death because they have eaten too much of their food supply and the land can only support a smaller herd.

Obad Hai teaches us that this is how things are and must be. Trying to prevent these things would be futile. And reckless.

There are usually more important large-scale matters at stake, and the life of one creature, or a herd of beasts, or even a village of people, is often insignificant in the bigger picture. Most of the time, the death of millions of individual creatures is essential to the continuing cycles of nature. So it goes.

A druid knows that they, like all mortal persons, will eventually be exploited by other living creatures. Their body will one day be worm-food, or chewed on by a bear, or have their bones picked clean by vultures. So it goes.

Everything uses other things, and this is as Natural as can be. Nature is teeth and claws, disease and parasites, tsunamis and forest fires.

Nature is not nice. And neither should Druids be. The Laws of Nature are not Good. They are fiercely, coldly, terribly, brutally, Neutral.

And a Lawful Neutral druid respects that sacred system, and would not presume to undermine the Law of the Nature.

Those who think of Nature as somehow separate from People and Culture forget this Law, or mistakenly think people are exempt from it. But people have to eat, and poop, and breathe, and die. Cities need water supplies and forests and farms and sewage systems.

Even a wizard specializing in the most abstract manipulation of arcane energies still needs to eat and visit the outhouse at the end of his meditation. All mortals, and most Gods, are still part of Nature. (Aberrations and Undead are totally freaking Unnatural, though. Their existence cannot be tolerated.)

As long as the ecosystem (network of exploitation) is balanced, and nothing (or no species) is taking more than its share, then all is as it should be. And when it's unbalanced, Nature has ways of righting the balance. (The herd starving because the forest cannot sustain their numbers.)

Though sometimes we Druids need to give the system a nudge. Or teach over-exploiting people a lesson.

As long as it's done with respect and gratitude, and not unbalancing or distressing the ecosystem, then this is part of the Natural Way Things Are. It's how things always have been. So it goes.