I may have made a bad mistake...

[MrStabby]

In the loot of the last dungeon I put a greatsword, a nice item with abilities appropriate for a level 12 party to find. I then decided on a whim to make it an intelligent item with its own character etc..

I think I may have made a mistake.

Essentially I have created a DMPC that I can't take away from the players - at least not without annoying them considerably. Now I have to think not only about what I am putting in front of my PCs but also how the weapon will react, its views if questioned etc..

Has anyone else used intelligent weapons before? Any luck with them? Any tips? Any problems?

I can foresee a lot but i don't know what comes up in reality - experience from people who have actually used them, as a player or a DM would be useful.

[Willie the Duck]

The nightmare intelligent item is so iconic, that it's been lampooned in D&D comics like KoDT for years.

The best way to get rid of this problem is to make them regret associating themselves with the magic item. Make it a jerk, make it a crybaby, make it a fanatic, make it secretly evil, make it desperately want to be handed off to a gnomish barbarian (or other race/class suitably obscure). Heck, make the long lost great great grandchild of its' original master discover that it has been found and come looking for it.

[Arm of God]

What kind of personality did you give the sword?

My DM once threw in a murdersword that cared for nothing except bloodshed. The sword would make hidden rolls in order to control the PC holding it. When it crit, it would take over the PCs body, amplify his/her stats, and try to kill anything that moved until the PC was incapacitated. My paladin ended up tossing it in lava because it made him uncomfortable.

Another sword my DM threw in was a dark, necrotic, evil sword with a flamboyant personality. Our warlock ended up selling it to a clueless merchant because he was so annoyed.

It's easy to take away the sword when the PC's make the decision, just make the sword unbearable in some way.

[MrFahrenheit]

I literally lol'ed at the murdersword

[Arm of God]

If you want your PC's to keep the sword, give it some backstory. What was it before a sword? A prince? A metal golem? Or was it just a sword that became sentient? Who used it before your party? What glory and bloodshed has it seen? What mind proficiencies does it have? Treat the sword like you would any other NPC.

[ruy343]

Thus far, the suggestions have been to make the magic item that you gifted to your players an item that they'll regret having for some reason. That's certainly one approach that you could take, but I feel like there are better ways to play with it.

An emotional connection: how about having the magical item only communicate with the wielder with feelings of emotion? The item can't speak common or any other known language, but can understand common, and can perhaps answer questions presented directly to it by "feeling" answers. For example - a sword that wishes to be returned to its creator: "Should we go to see the powerful wizard?" Apprehension. "What's so important about this ruined city?" Excitement/Belonging. Simple things like that allow the item to fade into the background when not needed, but still be a memorable character in its own right.
A passive-aggressive or reclusive item: perhaps the item doesn't enjoy speaking much, and would much rather wait until it feels the need to pipe up. Perhaps the players don't even know that it's magical until it decides something is important enough to speak up about.

[ClintACK]

Lots of ways to go with this.

For one, you could just make it very patient and mostly uninterested in the things that interest the party. Then it's just the quiet DMPC that never speaks up and has nothing particular to add if the party tries to get it involved. Of course, it could suddenly light up when the topic turns to killing vampires (or whatever it's particular interest is) -- but otherwise it's content in its own pleasant reminiscence on mayhem past.

[Biggstick]

Other posters have asked good questions, but one that hasn't been asked yet is what have you actually had the sentient sword say? Has it revealed anything to the party yet? If it has, what has it actually revealed about itself?

You may already have an idea about what kind of personality the sword has, but if you haven't actually revealed anything in game, it can still be changed without players realizing it's happened. Or if it has revealed something, we need to know what it was to better help you adjust it in a way to help you.

[MrStabby]

What kind of personality did you give the sword?

My DM once threw in a murdersword that cared for nothing except bloodshed. The sword would make hidden rolls in order to control the PC holding it. When it crit, it would take over the PCs body, amplify his/her stats, and try to kill anything that moved until the PC was incapacitated. My paladin ended up tossing it in lava because it made him uncomfortable.

Another sword my DM threw in was a dark, necrotic, evil sword with a flamboyant personality. Our warlock ended up selling it to a clueless merchant because he was so annoyed.

It's easy to take away the sword when the PC's make the decision, just make the sword unbearable in some way.

Ah, thanks for this.

The sword has the spirit of a dead halfling child trapped in it. Personality is overenthusiastic ADHD weapon - somewhat naive and very petulant when it doesn't get what it wants. It talks a lot in response to questions then starts (sometimes) singing.

[Ninja_Prawn]

You could always take the sentience out of the sword, leaving them with the item (which keeps its powers, somehow) but removing the DMPC. Maybe it's trapped in the sword and desperately wants to leave - and will reward the PCs if they free it. Maybe it will corrupt the holder and steal their soul if it isn't purged. Maybe the sentience in the sword needs to be extracted for plot reasons... perhaps the holy macguffin that's sealing up a rift in spacetime is running out of batteries and it needs a new soul fed into it to keep it going so the sentient sword volunteers due to having the most experience at inhabiting an item.

Problem solved! :smallcool:

[Arcangel4774]

You could damage the sword in midcombate, causing it to lose the ability to speak. This would go great to tie into the emotion component thay was mentioned

[SillyPopeNachos]

Is it an artifact? No? Have a NPC caster hit it with Dispel Magic.

[NecroDancer]

Check out the sword "craven edge" from Critical Role for inspiration

http://criticalrole.wikia.com/wiki/Craven_Edge

[MrStabby]

You could always take the sentience out of the sword, leaving them with the item (which keeps its powers, somehow) but removing the DMPC. Maybe it's trapped in the sword and desperately wants to leave - and will reward the PCs if they free it. Maybe it will corrupt the holder and steal their soul if it isn't purged. Maybe the sentience in the sword needs to be extracted for plot reasons... perhaps the holy macguffin that's sealing up a rift in spacetime is running out of batteries and it needs a new soul fed into it to keep it going so the sentient sword volunteers due to having the most experience at inhabiting an item.

Problem solved! :smallcool:

What were peoples reactions when you did this?

[gfishfunk]

Simple solutions are best:

- The personality is fluff. Tell the player that the character is now in charge of the personality, reactions, and voice of the sword.
- The sword is background: no longer role play it, but provide it as a player resource. If anyone asks, yeah, its still doing all that stuff in the background, but everyone got used to it.
- They come to a town and find a cleric that can remove the soul of the child, potentially requiring some magic thing for it and creating a side-quest. This is another hook to use to steer your players where you want them to go.

I don't like the other approaches for the following reason:

- If you pressure the players into getting rid of the item, they likely won't. Keeping something powerful will trump other reasons to get rid of it.

[RickAllison]

Ah, thanks for this.

The sword has the spirit of a dead halfling child trapped in it. Personality is overenthusiastic ADHD weapon - somewhat naive and very petulant when it doesn't get what it wants. It talks a lot in response to questions then starts (sometimes) singing.

Hey, you could make it super-annoying so they hate it, then offer a place that requires the soul of a child to open, maybe masked with a riddle to make it seem less sinister. The party gives up the child's trapped soul and they go on. Oh and you might need to traumatize your party afterwards...

[pwykersotz]

Is it an artifact? No? Have a NPC caster hit it with Dispel Magic.

That wouldn't work unless the DM decides that the intelligence is caused by a custom spell. Dispel Magic only affects spells that fit into the spell level schema.

[Ninja_Prawn]

What were peoples reactions when you did this?

Oh, I've never done any of those things. Sorry; I didn't mean to give that impression. They were just ideas that would eliminate your 'DMPC' problem without you having to take away the players' toys or deliberately annoy them.

[Starchild7309]

As it's a small child from what you have said I would have it basically know nothing. It can't give them helpful info really. Its a small naive, petulant child....so what, make it behave like one.

Things the sword might say at inopportune times:

I am tired of this...put me away (roll to see if the wielder can still wield the sword)
Why is that guy so ugly? (to the big scary guard in town or mercenary)
Who does that stupid guy think he is? The King/Lord?
Oh! Kitty cats...take me closer (roll to see if the wielder has to run down dark alleys to find a cat for the sword)
(Walking into a dungeon) EEEK! That's scary in there! I don't wanna go! (roll to see if the wielder can carry the sword inside)

Not sure if this one fits the sword, but swords are said to "drink the blood of their victims" I'm thirsty/hungry! Feed Me NOW! (roll to see if the wielder has to go cut some sentient being with the blade to sate its thirst.

Now if the wielder has a good wisdom this will be annoying, but not utterly problematic. The ones where it randomly insults someone innocently like a child might can provide good r/p opportunities. If the wielder has a poor wisdom or fails the save its going to be interesting if it won't let the wielder enter a dungeon or has to run off after god knows what in the middle of an important quest.

You said ADHD, my son is very much like that. Very stubborn and very much his own free will and desire to do whatever he feels like doing regardless of what is going on. Play it like that. Either the players will coddle the sword and it will take them all over and be an issue for them or they will pass it off on someone else because it becomes and inconvenience.

[SillyPopeNachos]

That wouldn't work unless the DM decides that the intelligence is caused by a custom spell. Dispel Magic only affects spells that fit into the spell level schema.
And there you have the solution. It's up to the DM, and instead of complaining, the DM can decide in their world that sentience in magic items is caused by a custom spell.

[Specter]

Unlike a DMPC, the sword won't bother you during combat, won't make decisions for the group and won't annoy someone for being 'better' than them at something. Just make it speak less and it should be good.

[Waffle_Iron]

Another option is the slow reveal.

- The sword is not intelligent, it is possessed.
- Actually it's more like a prison for a single soul.
- The spirit possessing the sword may or may not remember how it was forced into its prison. It was probably gory.
- The sword has charges.
- Each roll of natural 20 drains a charge.
- As the charges are used, the spirit is gradually consumed. The closer to zero charges the item gets, the more painful the loss of a charge is.
- After a charge is drained the spirit needs time to recover.
- When the final charge is drained, the spirit is consumed entirely, never proceeding to it's heaven or hell. It ceases to exist.
- To power the sword again, another being must be sacrificed to it, granting charges relative to it's innocence.

If you have the players uncover these facts before they play out fully, they will use the sword only in dire emergency, or only with it's permission.
Also, the horror of realizing that their "good-aligned intelligent weapon" was used to sacrifice children will make them want to avoid using it themselves.
However, they won't be able to just destroy the weapon, because that would also destroy the innocent child inside...

[Willie the Duck]

The sword is actually a sword of spirit ensnaring. Anyone slain by in must make a Cha save or have their spirit trapped by it. An enemy gets ahold of the sword, and kills all the PCs with it. They then find themselves inside a nightmare landscape with the souls of a portion of those slain by the sword (many of them by whichever PC wielded it). The PCs discover that the Halfling child is in fact a deranged super soul (perhaps a composite of all the souls' darkest natures, like that one good Star Trek Voyager episode) that feeds on the terror that it inflicts upon the others. The PCs must find a way to gain dominance over the child-soul, then communicate with whomever is left holding the sword and convince them to do whatever is needed to free them (and perhaps get them resurrected after that). Bam! Entire new direction for the campaign.

[Levistej]

A great take on this is Nightblood from Brandon Sandersons Cosmere series.
A blade that has been given life by infusing thousands of souls into it's core. The problem is that in order to sustain itself it slowly sucks out the soul of its weilder till he's nothing more than a human shaped husk. The sword cuts not only on the material level but efects the spiritual and cognitive level as well - removing the soul from the body upon striking. This manifests itself in no visible wounds but charred, empty eyesockets of the swords victims.
It also has a very strange moral code and can learn and develop mentaly. I love Sanderson and nightblood is propably the coolest sword in fantasy literature to date.
Spoiler alert if you ever thaught of reading some of his work, but here is the wiki with more detail. May it be a source of ideas.
http://coppermind.net/wiki/Nightblood

[Corsair14]

I have a sword in my campaign that's a daemonic sword. Initially its fairly mundane but as the character levels so does its power. For the first level or two he has it, he will simply subtly hint the character should do the bad thing when moral decisions come up. Then for the next couple levels he will have to start rolling a willpower-esque save(haven't actually figured out what save) when these decisions come up and when he fails, will start to develop minor physical traits. After that the weapon will start talking to him directly. The fact the character who is going to get it is an int 6 human barbarian should make this interesting.

Havent figured out what kind of daemon yet, right now its just a generic evil one that is ticked about being imprisoned in the sword.
The sword will need a high level remove curse to get rid of it so no throwing it in the lava.

[gfishfunk]

I love a lot of these ideas, but many of them have huge plot tumor written all over them (but in a fun way, so its more okay).

I say tie it to some plot aspect that you already want to happen, and then use it as a hook.

[BillyBobShorton]

As a player who started out DMing (poorly) back when I was like 10 or 11, I always missed the whole "being a player" aspect when I ran games. Eventually, my solution was to create intelligent items so I could still role play a bit as a party member, which also served well when it was a smaller group (1-3 players).

I think it takes a certain type of person/DM to pull that off. If you are good at being spontaneous, quick-witted, dreaming up and sinking into a personality, then embrace it.

If you feel it starts to pile on too much to the DM workload, a solution I would offer is to bring a fun lersona to the wepon that the party enjoys, then suddenly make "the batteries go dead". Part of their campaign/side mission would be to find the right person to help them figure out how to get the Weapon its "groove back".

All its other cool properties work, but you are unburdened of the role playing aspect until a later date. It adds a sense of companionship, lets you know the party enjoyed your weapon/character, and adds more suspense. In the meantime, concoct some plot about where the weapon's personality went to and what they'd need to get it back. Or they may be fine with a sword or whatever that does a bunch of stuff but DOESN'T talk. Either way, you all win.

Hope that helps.

[Joe the Rat]

If the sword does not have a vote in party decisions, and cannot act on its own, it's not really a DMPC. It's an NPC.

Like any NPC, it can be your nudge or exposition fairy. Point out something the party missed, or forgot. Bring up useful information. Suggest locations to find things.

In this case, a hyperactive childlike personality might be good for pointing out the ooo, shiny things. Depending on its purpose (you did roll or give it a purpose, right?), it might be really good at noticing certain types of creatures or items.

If you're serious abou- hold on

Hey! Listen!
If you're serious about making the item go away, just make it really annoying to have around.

[MrStabby]

Oh, I've never done any of those things. Sorry; I didn't mean to give that impression. They were just ideas that would eliminate your 'DMPC' problem without you having to take away the players' toys or deliberately annoy them.

Ah sorry.

I should have been more explicit in the OP; I was looking for people with experience of actually using these items. I have no shortage of ideas on what I could do, but what I should do would have to be based on actual experience.

[RickAllison]

Ah sorry.

I should have been more explicit in the OP; I was looking for people with experience of actually using these items. I have no shortage of ideas on what I could do, but what I should do would have to be based on actual experience.

While I have yet to do so, my DM ran into the problem with his DMPC who had to stay with the party for numerous reasons, but he couldn't keep up with his world, his NPCs, and all while trying to control this DMPC. The solution we ended up with was he ceded control over her to us and so we would take turns RPing her when needed and based on the DM's characterization. In your situation, it would mean encouraging your players to chime in as the sword when appropriate in-character. You can advance your own plans for the spirit at your leisure while the regular back-and-forth is handled by the players.

[MrStabby]

While I have yet to do so, my DM ran into the problem with his DMPC who had to stay with the party for numerous reasons, but he couldn't keep up with his world, his NPCs, and all while trying to control this DMPC. The solution we ended up with was he ceded control over her to us and so we would take turns RPing her when needed and based on the DM's characterization. In your situation, it would mean encouraging your players to chime in as the sword when appropriate in-character. You can advance your own plans for the spirit at your leisure while the regular back-and-forth is handled by the players.

That is a nice touch. I might steal that.

[Osrogue]

Is it an artifact? No? Have a NPC caster hit it with Dispel Magic.

I don't think that's really RAW since it isn't a spell, but that sounds like a bad idea. Evil von Badguy has a magical weapon? Dispel magic. Magic armor? Dispel magic. Golem? Dispel magic. Floating city in the sky built upon rows of immovable rods? Dispel magic.

Probably better for it to be confined to spells and not all magical creatures/magical effects.

[Herobizkit]

Another option is the slow reveal.

- [snip] -

If you have the players uncover these facts before they play out fully, they will use the sword only in dire emergency, or only with its permission. Also, the horror of realizing that their "good-aligned intelligent weapon" was used to sacrifice children will make them want to avoid using it themselves. However, they won't be able to just destroy the weapon, because that would also destroy the innocent child inside...You, Sir/Madam, are a treasure.

Playing the sword as an actual child and asking questions could be another fun ticket.

"Why are you hurting that monster?"
"When's second breakfast?"
"Play with me! If I see someone with a red tunic before you, I get to punch you!" (hilt baps PC)
"Where do souls go when they die?"

I'm guessing that the kid-in-armor from Fullmetal Alchemist would be a great influence for your DMPC.

[ethertwist]

In the loot of the last dungeon I put a greatsword, a nice item with abilities appropriate for a level 12 party to find. I then decided on a whim to make it an intelligent item with its own character etc..

I think I may have made a mistake.

Essentially I have created a DMPC that I can't take away from the players - at least not without annoying them considerably. Now I have to think not only about what I am putting in front of my PCs but also how the weapon will react, its views if questioned etc..

Has anyone else used intelligent weapons before? Any luck with them? Any tips? Any problems?

I can foresee a lot but i don't know what comes up in reality - experience from people who have actually used them, as a player or a DM would be useful.

Sure, I've used/played with intelligent weapons before. And I know that they are almost never to be trusted. Very very rarely will an intelligent item have the same goals/motivation as the PC. That's not what DMs do.

There isn't much point to having a sentient item unless it:


creates conflict, or
inspires a crisis of conscience, or
adds an element of mystery or intrigue, or
advances the plot



Otherwise it's just roleplaying baggage for the DM. Most players will recognise this and be wary of their sentient sword, and most good players will embrace this (i.e. avoid metagaming and just feel special that their character has another reason to be in the spotlight).

You just need to figure out if the sword does any of the above. If yes, work out which one and why, and have this in your head. Don't try to force that upon the party, you don't need to. Drop a few hints early that it's sentient and the player who carries the sword will ask you. 'What's the sword saying/doing/radiating?' When you answer you can be as specific or as vague as you like.

And if they don't ask you, then the sword will fade into the background so your problem is solved. If this happens and you feel particularly inspired to bring it up again after months/years of adventuring they will all gasp in awe at how you kept its motivations hidden all this time! It's a win-win.

Edit:

Sorry, I realise now that I am confusing an intelligent item with a sentient item. Does your sword speak to the party, like all the time?

If this is the case and it's constant chit chat I recommend that they wake up one day and the sword is suddenly unable to talk to them. Turn it into a plot twist if necessary. I do not recommend a talking sword - it's just another avenue for the conversation at the table to be derailed and to take you out of your place as 'the universe' but still force you to reveal plot.

It remains an NPC with influence but it shouldn't have an unbridled voice. Just my opinion.

[Sigreid]

My characters basically won't use an intelligent anything. Too much of a threat to their free will.

[Knaight]

I wouldn't assume that this is a mistake yet - an intelligent sword is firmly in the persistent NPC category and not the true DMPC category, and this particular one is going to have a very limited perspective and thus a limited capability to provide really useful advice or similar.

[The Shadowdove]

Hunting spider blade

Each night this blade turns itself into a blade-like spider. If seen it'll immediately turn back into a sword.

While unnoticed, it stalks the night. It does not return to it's owners side until it has slain a living creature.

Once sheathed, it is magically cleaned it any debris or blood.

Note: your character may become the suspect in the murder of innocents,pets, or farm animals as evidence has a way of leading to wherever you are staying.

[MrStabby]

Sure, I've used/played with intelligent weapons before. And I know that they are almost never to be trusted. Very very rarely will an intelligent item have the same goals/motivation as the PC. That's not what DMs do.

There isn't much point to having a sentient item unless it:


creates conflict, or
inspires a crisis of conscience, or
adds an element of mystery or intrigue, or
advances the plot



Otherwise it's just roleplaying baggage for the DM. Most players will recognise this and be wary of their sentient sword, and most good players will embrace this (i.e. avoid metagaming and just feel special that their character has another reason to be in the spotlight).

You just need to figure out if the sword does any of the above. If yes, work out which one and why, and have this in your head. Don't try to force that upon the party, you don't need to. Drop a few hints early that it's sentient and the player who carries the sword will ask you. 'What's the sword saying/doing/radiating?' When you answer you can be as specific or as vague as you like.

And if they don't ask you, then the sword will fade into the background so your problem is solved. If this happens and you feel particularly inspired to bring it up again after months/years of adventuring they will all gasp in awe at how you kept its motivations hidden all this time! It's a win-win.

Edit:

Sorry, I realise now that I am confusing an intelligent item with a sentient item. Does your sword speak to the party, like all the time?

If this is the case and it's constant chit chat I recommend that they wake up one day and the sword is suddenly unable to talk to them. Turn it into a plot twist if necessary. I do not recommend a talking sword - it's just another avenue for the conversation at the table to be derailed and to take you out of your place as 'the universe' but still force you to reveal plot.

It remains an NPC with influence but it shouldn't have an unbridled voice. Just my opinion.

Yeah, I tend to try and think things through, but this was an impulsive last minute change - mainly for ****s and giggles. It is looking like it might be a bit of a burden, but at least I might be able to use it to advance the plot/give some useful information - make it ancient enough to know a few bits of very specific history tied to its backstory - which could be useful if I can tie into the plot.

Maybe I will just see how it goes and try and keep the interactions to a minimum for the time being. If it can get petulant and go into a sulk then it gives me a break.

[Tawmis]

In the loot of the last dungeon I put a greatsword, a nice item with abilities appropriate for a level 12 party to find. I then decided on a whim to make it an intelligent item with its own character etc..
I think I may have made a mistake.
Essentially I have created a DMPC that I can't take away from the players - at least not without annoying them considerably. Now I have to think not only about what I am putting in front of my PCs but also how the weapon will react, its views if questioned etc..
Has anyone else used intelligent weapons before? Any luck with them? Any tips? Any problems?
I can foresee a lot but i don't know what comes up in reality - experience from people who have actually used them, as a player or a DM would be useful.

This can always be fixed. Why not make the Weapon "evil" - so that it begins influencing the characters. Causing interruption of sleep, which in turn impacts the character's ability to attack, make checks, etc., because the sword is seeking to find it's "evil" master... So it will do whatever it can to break free of the good character's grasp.

You could even make a quest out of destroying the sword and/or the "owner" coming back for it.

[Anderlith]

Read Warbreaker by Brandon Sanderson. Pay attention to Nightblood. This is how you run an intelligent item.

[SillyPopeNachos]

I don't think that's really RAW since it isn't a spell, but that sounds like a bad idea. Evil von Badguy has a magical weapon? Dispel magic. Magic armor? Dispel magic. Golem? Dispel magic. Floating city in the sky built upon rows of immovable rods? Dispel magic.

Probably better for it to be confined to spells and not all magical creatures/magical effects.
If dispel magic doesn't rid the game of magical effects (my post had nothing to do with creatures, you brought that up), then we have a gap that converting the spell Disjunction would fill.

[Steampunkette]

My suggestion? Use it to create a quest.

If it contains the soul of a halfling child, have the owner wake up in the middle of the night to crying coming from the sword. The spirit tries to play it off, but in further weeks it keeps happening. Eventually the child breaks down into full throated sobbing cries about how they miss their family and how alone they feel in the sword. They can't play, or hug, or eat nice food... They're just trapped there, and have been for a long time.

REALLY go for broke on the crying. If you can manage tears of your own, do it. The sight and scent of tears can drive a group of people into tears of their own through sympathy. If nothing else it will at least make them feel uncomfortable in their inability to help... at first.

Get the players emotionally invested into the child-spirit in the blade and give them a way to release the child without destroying the weapon. Perhaps have them track down a Necromancer they're already going to have to take in, or work with a local church who will send them on a quest to release the kid through a series of noble acts or trials. With the investment your tears fostered, whether sympathetic or unquiet guilt at inability, they'll leap at the chance to help the child.

Write up a tearful farewell for the kid at the conclusion of the questline. Spare no heartstring in the process. Have the child finally be revealed, a full bodied apparition with a mop of red hair and freckles on their cheek, missing a tooth but happy, as they run towards the loving arms of their parents. Have the child look between it's parents and the person who held their blade, then rush over to give them a ghostly hug and a sniffly thank you before they fade into the ether. If their parents are dead, have them fade, too.

If the parents are alive have the final act performed over the child's gravesite so the party has a "Real" marker in the world to mourn over and maybe bring flowers once in a while. Leave them with NPCs they have a bond with by proxy. Maybe have the parents dote on the one who bears the greatsword, treating that character as an extension of their own family.

What you did for giggles could become a powerful moment in your storytelling career. A series of events your players will carry with them for years to come.

Grab hold of it!