D&D 4E Multiclassing (Dragon #421)

[Draculstar]

The 4E DM on Roll20 just allowed this and said "try to break the game, just let me see the sheet when it's done so I can plan". He mentioned he's building an "ultimate hardcore" campaign. I love the hardcore aspect, and don't know how to optimize a 4E character. I'm the only player, but I prefer it that way. I'm only allowed one character.

So... How iz make game break? Here's the list of things I'll need:
• AoE controller effects, this is essential because he has a Minion fetish (the more spammable the better, the bigger the area the better)
• Single-target striker-level damage, preferably even higher than the "normal" striker-level, for Elites and maybe Solos (they'd be lower level than me and multi-stage fights)
• Extremely high durability, though preferably by not taking damage in the first place
• I will be receiving Minions to fight for me at some points over the campaign, including a warzone, so any ways to keep them alive would be handy

[Leewei]

Any aura that automatically damages enemies is pretty ideal for use against minions.

As far as breaking the game goes, I'd suggest a Charisma-based character using Paladin, Sorcerer, and Warlock features and powers. Paladin grants good defenses and plate armor proficiency. Sorcerer gives you good multi-attacks. Warlock gets you Eyebite, an at-will which blinds your enemy. At higher levels, paladins gain access to decent Charisma-based mass marks, which should help protect your minions.

[MwaO]

I'd note that there are dead levels, where one doesn't gain powers, so Warden is a really good choice for all of those levels.

In any case, I wouldn't play with those options if someone was paying me to do so. CharOp basically ignored them because they were that stupid…not as in broken, but just completely stupid for the 4e system.

[Devigor]

I think I'd go with a Half-Elf Avenger and grab Twin Strike with Dilettante. Then go to town on multi-attacking with Fighter and Ranger powers. Grab a sunblade/radiant weapon and go Mornin'lud, grabbing every damage booster you can. If killing mass minions is that big of a necessity, grab a couple of the ranger encounter powers that let you close burst instead of multi-attack. If they're ranged minions, use Avenger or Assassin utilities to get close first.

Edit: Alternatively, go Bladesinger and grab REAL daily powers instead of wizard encounter powers. Swordmage powers, perhaps?

[darkdragoon]

If you use a lot of basics, the Level 9 Ranger swap Dual Weapon Attack or Close Combat Archery may be worthwhile. Otherwise it's just cherrypicking powers and if nothing else Warden mixed in for the HP bonus.

[Draculstar]

@Leewei You can't grab Eyebite if you go Paladin 1 without Half-Elf. Same goes for the armor proficiencies and features of Paladin if you go Warlock 1.

@MwaO Warden makes sense for those. Gotta love extra HP. I thought the rules were ignored by CharOp because they're completely unofficial UA?

@Devigor Do you think there is a good way to do a ranged character that meets all the prerequisites? I ask out of curiosity, since you mentioned ranged minions.

@Darkdragoon I'm trying to figure out which combination of class features and powers will work best together for a solo campaign.

[Devigor]

The easiest way to use those rules is to basically pretend you're a much more involved Eternal Seeker, starting at level 11.

Are you required to follow any of the restrictions listed in the sidebar for that multiclassing system?

[Draculstar]

Yeah. I can only choose a second class, but I can also multiclass normally besides that. I have to have at least a 15 in the primary stat of the class. I also can't apply striker damage features to barbarian powers, since they already deal higher damage.

I can make a hybrid with it, but following the regular rules, hybrid class features usually only work for the hybrid class itself, not for features or powers from other classes (like Sneak Attack only applying to Rogue powers). However, if I don't hybrid, the class features work normally (Sneak Attack could work with Steel Serpent Strike, for example).

[Devigor]

Pardon my Hellish Rebuke, but what in the abyss would you be hybriding for with D421 multiclassing?

[Draculstar]

Maybe for 1 out of a 100 instances, 3 classes can be better than 2. But yeah, I see your point. I dunno. Maybe an Int+Cha hybrid Psion|Wizard that grabs some Bard or Warlock goodies could be worthwhile?

[Devigor]

Eh. If you really need a hybrid, go Int+Con with an Artificer|Swordmage and grab Wizard powers where you need.
• Artificer gives Magic Weapon, which can buff any minions you get, and the shielding formula (or whatever it is) giving a minion temporary HP could work with your DM. Artificers can also be effective at short to medium range.
• Swordmage with Shielding can protect your minions by reducing damage dealt to them, and it gives you a lot of options for teleporting, damage, and defensive stuff. Plus, they can also be effective at short to medium range.
• Wizard powers wreck minions with AoE and can lock down big critters. Enough here to power you by itself, really. More than 90% of Wizard is designed for medium to long range.

Alternative to that is Warden instead of Wizard, filling dead levels with HP. Swordmage has a lot of AoE options. Namely, using Arcane Admixture+Resounding Thunder in paragon to give you an Int-based Close Burst 2 At Will (Sword Burst). If you absolutely must have Wizard powers, use multiclass feats (some are damn fabulous, and I'd be tempted to go all the way to grab one of their utilities), or use Eternal Seeker.

The biggest problem with a solo game, regardless of playstyle and preference, is that the action economy is super slim. Making milestones every encounter instead of every two encounters is advised here, or maybe just allowing multiple action points per encounter for when elites or solos appear.

[ThePurple]

The biggest problem with a solo game, regardless of playstyle and preference, is that the action economy is super slim. Making milestones every encounter instead of every two encounters is advised here, or maybe just allowing multiple action points per encounter for when elites or solos appear.

The issue that I have is that 4e was never designed for a single PC. It's a team based system.

If I was every going to run a game with a single player, rather than using some obscene and easily abused multiclassing set-up, I would rather have that single player run multiple characters: it solves the action economy problems, provides for real tactical options, allows for more complex fights, etc.

[Draculstar]

The DM didn't force me to make a character with that system, I asked him if I could and he said to have at it. I wanted to try it because I have played almost every class and race in 4th edition, and I wanted to see how this kind of multiclassing would feel to play.

As for multiple characters, the reason I wanted to keep it solo was because of the type of experience; it feels a lot different to play a single character who runs around doing things, compared to a party. Everything from the playstyle to the way NPCs and monsters act towards you is altered.

The DM has made arrangements for the campaign to not be too difficult. We've already gone through some mock battles as examples of what I'm to expect. He gives monsters 10% lower (out of the total, not a flat -2) defenses and attack bonuses and then cuts their XP value down by 10% as well. Combat is easier than usual, so I felt the multiclassing option would be valid. I'm trying to make a character like from Fable: The Lost Chapters, if I can.

Plus... How is it obscene? No one's posted anything I would even call "abusive".

[MwaO]

@MwaO Warden makes sense for those. Gotta love extra HP. I thought the rules were ignored by CharOp because they're completely unofficial UA?

No, because instant stupid stuff like that showed up. If it was in any way well done, someone would have examined it more thoroughly.

Basically, the person who designed the system didn't understand 4e. If you want to play solo and cover the range of roles, I'd pick from the following:
Cleric with Battle Cleric's Lore or Sentinel who gets +4 to AC to Hide from a stat - Cleric checks the very high defenses, Sentinel+Hide on other side has decent defenses+Controller. And opens up a little bit of Defender usefulness for protecting the pet.
Striker or Controller
Look to MC either Fighter or Sorcerer for power swaps to pick up Striker options via Rain of Blows/Shock Trooper or Flame Spiral/Demonskin Adept

As examples:
Dex/Cha Sorcerer|Cleric who MCs Monk for Centered Breath Flurry of Blows(to slide target into Flame Spiral)
Sentinel|Warden with Str/Wis who MCs Fighter for Rain of Blows/Shock Trooper

[Leewei]

@Leewei You can't grab Eyebite if you go Paladin 1 without Half-Elf. Same goes for the armor proficiencies and features of Paladin if you go Warlock 1.

I have to admit I'm not very familiar with Dragon #421 MC. Does this allow PHB3 style hybrids? If so, that's how you can get the Paladin armor proficiency and Warlock eyebite.

[Devigor]

Yeah, you can hybrid and still multiclass using 421.

On the subject of those sample builds... I think I'd rather use an Int|Cha Psion|Sorcerer and grab sorcerer utilities that boost defenses every chance I get, if I was going to go sorcerer at all. Using Dishearten on standards and minions (especially with the existing penalty he said his DM was giving to monster attacks) and then using Living Missile on a troublesome Elite or Solo works much better with Flame Spiral. Ten squares of sliding as a minor action looks juicy... Plus, at level 15 he can grab the Dominate power or the upgraded multi-target Living Missile (forgot the name) to eke even more out of Flame Spiral. Dealing 10d6+10xStatic Mods to every monster in a battle can get ridiculous, even at epic levels. Especially at epic levels, now that I think about it...

That doesn't even include other gems you can pull with that hybrid. Sorcerer dailies can be sweeter than pie, with some higher level augmented Psion at wills.

Edit: Now I want to use this, it's as close to a 3.5 wilder as I've yet seen.

Edit2: Doing a quick static mods check, assuming you improve your forced movement, grab some encounter slide powers, and your DM keeps that math handicap on creeps, you should be able to solo a 10-encounter-long adventure at-level designed for a regular party, using the above PsiSorc.

[MwaO]

Yeah, you can hybrid and still multiclass using 421.

On the subject of those sample builds... I think I'd rather use an Int|Cha Psion|Sorcerer and grab sorcerer utilities that boost defenses every chance I get, if I was going to go sorcerer at all. Using Dishearten on standards and minions (especially with the existing penalty he said his DM was giving to monster attacks) and then using Living Missile on a troublesome Elite or Solo works much better with Flame Spiral. Ten squares of sliding as a minor action looks juicy with that 1d6 + Cha per square... Plus, at level 15 he can grab the Dominate power or the upgraded multi-target Living Missile (forgot the name) to eke even more out of Flame Spiral. Dealing 10d6+10xCha to every monster in a battle can get ridiculous, even at epic levels. Especially at epic levels, after you factor in all of the static modifiers.

Except two specific problems:
You smack down your Sorcerer damage bonuses.
You start off with a very low AC. Making you really vulnerable to not going first.

A Str/Cha Sorcerer|Cleric has an AC of 19 from Battle Cleric's Lore at 1st level. He can heal himself. He has a Striker option(damage). Take some of the Sorcerer-boosting options and greatly increase defenses...

A Str/Wis Warden|Sentinel who takes the Warden AC has an AC of 19 from Hide+Wis+Zephyr Concealment. He can target 3 opponents each round with Magic Stones.

[Devigor]

The sorcerer damage bonuses are fun, yes. But against minions, it doesn't matter, and against an elite or solo... Flame spiral. Against a few standard monsters, he'll have to rely on more involved tactics and his other powers, but that's a given with a solo campaign.

The other problem, AC, is already taken care of with the math fix his DM is using. Yes, AC 19 is always better than AC 16, but if all monsters have -10% to their attack rolls and defenses, it's probably okay if he starts off shoving a feat into Imperious Majesty (because who wouldn't play a tiefling in this situation?). Then at level 2 grab improved initiative. Unarmored agility at 4th, or swap it for one of the earlier two if monsters roll higher on average. They're worth the feats, and he can grab the superior implements and such after a slight delay, with enemies having lower defenses.

Edit: Reading my own post makes me think many people would call "Blasphemy!", but I really do think it'd work. At least, the math says it'd be decent compared to my own solo artificer|swordmage or the solo bugbear slayer another buddy of mine's playing.

[The Ship's dog]

If you were needing some crazy AOE Sorcerer damage then you could try for a fey race so you could qualify for the Sarifal Feywarden-Flame Spiral combo, provided you are planning on taking Sorcerer as one of your classes or at least Multicalssing into it.

If you were going to go for this then if it works (which likely it won't because it will be taking up valuable feat slots) then you could pick up War wizardry if you find your own followers are getting in the way of your damage. This could also open up other AOE damage builds because then you could blast away with a significantly lower chance to hit your allies.

If you truly are expecting there to be hoards of minions thrown your way then you could take a look at the various forced-movement powers and/or builds; breaking up the ranks of the enemy and making them do stupid things is as good as controlling them through slows and other easily accessible AOE status effects. Sometimes if you plan ahead then it can be even better because you can force them into traps and ambushes you may have prepared earlier.

P.S. I am still relatively new to character optimisation so if I am saying completely the wrong things then please tell me, the only way I will learn is when I get involved and people tell me I'm doing it wrong.

[Devigor]

@The Ship's dog
You didn't get anything wrong, but see below for some new notes on what was said earlier:

• Flame Spiral was errata'ed to 1/turn damage (so my previous build is now much weaker). It was mostly awesome for the Effect line adding auto-damage as an aura, before, but it can still be useful if you have ways of moving enemies off-turn, every turn (such as a full party with multiple controllers/a flail user/marks of storm/other assorted sliding stuff).
• Flame Spiral only targets enemies, though the War Wizardry feat and War Wizard's Expertise are both still pretty good (take 'em both and it's almost impossible to hit your allies).
• Forced movement is indeed awesome. If you're expecting more than 65% of the XP value of an adventure will be minions, try tackling Wall powers and powers like Ice Traps that block squares of the map or damage folks that walk on them. If 65% of the adventure is made of minions, they're taking up a lot of space. Taking up more of the space is a lot more of a penalty on their maneuverability than yours, when there are enough minions that you can fire in a straight line and kill three.
• Along with the above, bottlenecking them with a summon at the bottleneck to blast the minions, or boxing them in completely while you turn them to ashes, are great ideas.

[The Ship's dog]

@Devigor
Oh, thank you for telling me those revisions and extra things that I didn't know. I'll just sort of lurk in the background for now.

[Kurald Galain]

For dealing with minions, an easy way to autokill a group of them is Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation, a first-level wizard spell. If not a wizard, grab it from a multiclass feat or a wand magic item (if you are a wizard, combo it with Enlarge Spell to make it even better).