I'm Thinking About Playing A Rogue On My Third Game

[Bartmanhomer]

Hey everyone. I'm thinking about playing a Netural Good Male Lesser Drow Rogue on my third game. Here's a twist the rogue is a lot younger than adulthood. The rogue is a child. Does anybody have any advice of how to be successful playing a male child rogue or thief?

[weckar]

Don't worry mate, you didn't need to say it was a Drow. With you, it is implied.

What kind of stat alterations are you using to represent the child age category, and are you keeping in mind the chance for serious trauma in such a role?

[Bartmanhomer]

Don't worry mate, you didn't need to say it was a Drow. With you, it is implied.

What kind of stat alterations are you using to represent the child age category, and are you keeping in mind the chance for serious trauma in such a role?

What do you mean about stat alterations? and what do you mean a serious trauma in such a role?

[Deadline]

Don't worry mate, you didn't need to say it was a Drow. With you, it is implied.

Also, the character will have a last name that is either "Spade", or "Diamond", because those are the two card suits you haven't used yet. :smallwink:


What kind of stat alterations are you using to represent the child age category, and are you keeping in mind the chance for serious trauma in such a role?

I believe Pathfinder has a "Child" template that could be used for this. Also, the child adventurer idea is trope-ridden enough that you can totally run something like this without ever having to worry about the consequences of such a thing if it were to happen in "real-life". Unless such a thing is what you are interested in exploring.

[Bartmanhomer]

Also, the character will have a last name that is either "Spade", or "Diamond", because those are the two card suits you haven't used yet. :smallwink:



I believe Pathfinder has a "Child" template that could be used for this. Also, the child adventurer idea is trope-ridden enough that you can totally run something like this without ever having to worry about the consequences of such a thing if it were to happen in "real-life". Unless such a thing is what you are interested in exploring.

Actually the male child rogue name happens to be Eric Spade. :smile:

[Deadline]

Actually the male child rogue name happens to be Eric Spade. :smile:

Not Sam Spade? Dang, maybe you'll go with Neil Diamond for your next character (hint, he should be a bard). :smalltongue:

[Bartmanhomer]

Not Sam Spade? Dang, maybe you'll go with Neil Diamond for your next character (hint, he should be a bard). :smalltongue:

No. I just decided to go the name Eric Spade. Oh and FYI I'm also not going to use David Spade as my rogue character name.

[weckar]

Child template could easily be used even in 3.5, sure.

Also, totally subbing to this thread.
The tropes, they are real.

[Bartmanhomer]

Child template could easily be used even in 3.5, sure.

Also, totally subbing to this thread.
The tropes, they are real.

Could you link the child template please if it not too much trouble?

[Troacctid]

Use the Savage Drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) instead for an extra +2 Int. (Don't take the racial levels.)

Do not skimp on Constitution. You've got a racial penalty and a tiny hit die. You need the extra HP badly.

Pick a prestige class. It will inform your build. I would not recommend going straight rogue. Some good options off the top of my head are Trapsmith, Assassin, Avenger, Slayer of Domiel, Temple Raider of Olidammara, Eye of Xanathar, Life Eater, Urban Savant, Shadowbane Stalker, Unseen Seer, Umbral Disciple, Swordsage (technically not a prestige class but it feels like one), Elocater, and Fatemaker.

[Bartmanhomer]

Use the Savage Drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) instead for an extra +2 Int. (Don't take the racial levels.)

Do not skimp on Constitution. You've got a racial penalty and a tiny hit die. You need the extra HP badly.

Pick a prestige class. It will inform your build. I would not recommend going straight rogue. Some good options off the top of my head are Trapsmith, Assassin, Avenger, Slayer of Domiel, Temple Raider of Olidammara, Eye of Xanathar, Life Eater, Urban Savant, Shadowbane Stalker, Unseen Seer, Umbral Disciple, Swordsage (technically not a prestige class but it feels like one), Elocater, and Fatemaker.

What's wrong going to straight rogue?

[Troacctid]

What's wrong going to straight rogue?
Diminishing returns. The high-level abilities are weak, so you fall off in power later in the game. Prestige classes provide you with more powerful level-appropriate abilities.

[Bartmanhomer]

Ok here's Eric Spade backstory. Eric Spade was born in a good reform drow rogue family. He's the son of Andrew Spade and Samantha Spade. And he's the brother of Nancy Spade. Andrew spade taught Eric how to be a good rogue drow. Even though he's still a child. He got great potential. He's friends with Stan Club, Kyle Heart and Kenny Diamond. He got a romantic crush on Bonnie Club (Stan's sister). Eric Spade and his friends always get into mischief of their adventures. He join a diverse rouge group called The Light Cloak and Dagger. Where they do good things like helping the community and other stuff. Eric Spade personality is very clever and a bit agressive and domineering. He can be a brat sometimes but deep down inside he a nice kid. The backstory still need some polishing and editing.

[Troacctid]

Pretty weird for there to be a nice happy nuclear family of good-aligned drow.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Pretty weird for there to be a nice happy nuclear family of good-aligned drow.
Maybe we should write sanctify the wicked into their backstory?

[weckar]

So Real, so Real...

[Menzath]

Yeah I wouldn't go full rogue, if you end up tumbling in and out of combat alot I'd recommend the swift ambusher feat and 3 levels of scout(which I did), other than that there are some pretty good prcs if you look around, or other rogue like classes, everyone seems to love Beguiler.

[Bartmanhomer]

Use the Savage Drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) instead for an extra +2 Int. (Don't take the racial levels.)

Do not skimp on Constitution. You've got a racial penalty and a tiny hit die. You need the extra HP badly.

Pick a prestige class. It will inform your build. I would not recommend going straight rogue. Some good options off the top of my head are Trapsmith, Assassin, Avenger, Slayer of Domiel, Temple Raider of Olidammara, Eye of Xanathar, Life Eater, Urban Savant, Shadowbane Stalker, Unseen Seer, Umbral Disciple, Swordsage (technically not a prestige class but it feels like one), Elocater, and Fatemaker. Would you described to me what all these prestige class do?

[Jack_McSnatch]

Be melee. Rogues are not ranged characters, no matter what the books tell you. If you're a drow, you might consider dipping Swashbuck and fighter. 3 levels swashbuckler will give you weapon finesse for free, and int as a damage bonus. Drow even have racial levels for both those classes that would benefit a melee rogue a whole lot. Drow fighter gets an initiative bonus and dex to damage against flat-footed foes at level 1, and Drow Swashbuckler lets you take a 5 foot step after hitting with two weapons, but that one is at 7th level. Better to supplement more rogue levels. Don't do drow rogue. Poison use isn't nearly as useful as trapfinding.

[Troacctid]

Trapsmith: Trap master. Loses some sneak attack damage, gains powerful spells for combat and dungeoneering, can make nifty traps. Quite strong.

Assassin: Loses skill points. Gains instant death attacks and spellcasting that greatly enhances sneak attacks, stealth, and subterfuge.

Avenger: Slightly weaker version of the Assassin with different alignment requirements.

Slayer of Domiel: Good-aligned version of the Assassin with tweaked abilities and divine spells.

Temple Raider: Olidammara-themed divine-casting rogue. Loses skill points, gains useful dungeoneering spells. Not as good as Trapsmith, but still cool.

Eye of Xanathar: Gain a freaky eyeball that gives you Beholder powers, improves your perception and scouting abilities, and allows you to make melee sneak attacks under any conditions (no flanking or flat-footing required). Slower sneak attack progression.

Life Eater: Eat souls. Gain powerful death-related spell-like abilities and deliver negative levels and bleed damage with your sneak attacks. Evil.

Urban Savant: Know everything about your enemies. Literally peek at their statblocks and look at their stats. At higher levels, you can give your whole team buffs with a Knowledge check. Also gives you spellcasting and wild empathy and stuff. Designed for bards, but works great for any skill monkey. Requires a level in an arcane spellcasting class. No sneak attack progression.

Shadowbane Stalker: Good-aligned divine sneak attacker. Gives you divine spellcasting and bonuses to stealth and stuff. Pretty strong. Requires a level of cleric.

Unseen Seer: Arcane sneak attacker. Advances sneak attack and arcane spellcasting. Cast as a wizard while also being a rogue. Also pretty strong. Requires a level of wizard, sorcerer, beguiler, etc.

Umbral Disciple: Gives incarnum-based abilities that provide constant concealment, let you hide in plain sight, and other nifty things. Slower sneak attack progression. Requires an essentia pool. It's common to take only the first 3 levels of this class, because the first 3 levels are great and the next 3 levels after that offer almost no benefits. (7+ is fine, but it just sucks slogging through 4–6.)

Swordsage: The ultimate ninja. Many powerful combat abilities that fit into the fighting style of a ninja assassin martial artist. Deals lots of extra damage and has a plethora of abilities that increase mobility and enable sneak attacks. Very strong for melee rogues, even if you only take one level. May be subject to multiclass xp penalties if you use that rule.

Elocater: Psionic class that lets you levitate at will and gives you powers based on teleportation and movement, as well as advancing psionics. Has a cooperative strike ability instead of sneak attack. Improves flanking. Gives you Teleport and Plane Shift as 3rd level powers. Lots of fun. Requires a level of psion or another manifesting class.

Fatemaker: Gives you spellcasting, bonuses to Charisma, and some abilities themed around luck and fate. Good for the party face.

[Bartmanhomer]

Trapsmith: Trap master. Loses some sneak attack damage, gains powerful spells for combat and dungeoneering, can make nifty traps. Quite strong.

Assassin: Loses skill points. Gains instant death attacks and spellcasting that greatly enhances sneak attacks, stealth, and subterfuge.

Avenger: Slightly weaker version of the Assassin with different alignment requirements.

Slayer of Domiel: Good-aligned version of the Assassin with tweaked abilities and divine spells.

Temple Raider: Olidammara-themed divine-casting rogue. Loses skill points, gains useful dungeoneering spells. Not as good as Trapsmith, but still cool.

Eye of Xanathar: Gain a freaky eyeball that gives you Beholder powers, improves your perception and scouting abilities, and allows you to make melee sneak attacks under any conditions (no flanking or flat-footing required). Slower sneak attack progression.

Life Eater: Eat souls. Gain powerful death-related spell-like abilities and deliver negative levels and bleed damage with your sneak attacks. Evil.

Urban Savant: Know everything about your enemies. Literally peek at their statblocks and look at their stats. At higher levels, you can give your whole team buffs with a Knowledge check. Also gives you spellcasting and wild empathy and stuff. Designed for bards, but works great for any skill monkey. Requires a level in an arcane spellcasting class. No sneak attack progression.

Shadowbane Stalker: Good-aligned divine sneak attacker. Gives you divine spellcasting and bonuses to stealth and stuff. Pretty strong. Requires a level of cleric.

Unseen Seer: Arcane sneak attacker. Advances sneak attack and arcane spellcasting. Cast as a wizard while also being a rogue. Also pretty strong. Requires a level of wizard, sorcerer, beguiler, etc.

Umbral Disciple: Gives incarnum-based abilities that provide constant concealment, let you hide in plain sight, and other nifty things. Slower sneak attack progression. Requires an essentia pool. It's common to take only the first 3 levels of this class, because the first 3 levels are great and the next 3 levels after that offer almost no benefits. (7+ is fine, but it just sucks slogging through 4–6.)

Swordsage: The ultimate ninja. Many powerful combat abilities that fit into the fighting style of a ninja assassin martial artist. Deals lots of extra damage and has a plethora of abilities that increase mobility and enable sneak attacks. Very strong for melee rogues, even if you only take one level. May be subject to multiclass xp penalties if you use that rule.

Elocater: Psionic class that lets you levitate at will and gives you powers based on teleportation and movement, as well as advancing psionics. Has a cooperative strike ability instead of sneak attack. Improves flanking. Gives you Teleport and Plane Shift as 3rd level powers. Lots of fun. Requires a level of psion or another manifesting class.

Fatemaker: Gives you spellcasting, bonuses to Charisma, and some abilities themed around luck and fate. Good for the party face.

Those are really great prestige classes. The only classes that's closest and doesn't require much requirement is the Swordsage or Fatemaker. I'll choose the Swordsage.

[Linken]

Be melee. Rogues are not ranged characters, no matter what the books tell you. If you're a drow, you might consider dipping Swashbuck and fighter. 3 levels swashbuckler will give you weapon finesse for free, and int as a damage bonus. Drow even have racial levels for both those classes that would benefit a melee rogue a whole lot. Drow fighter gets an initiative bonus and dex to damage against flat-footed foes at level 1, and Drow Swashbuckler lets you take a 5 foot step after hitting with two weapons, but that one is at 7th level. Better to supplement more rogue levels. Don't do drow rogue. Poison use isn't nearly as useful as trapfinding.

Boo, hiss! My ranged rogue is good!

not really :p

Seriously, though, yeah, Melee is mandatory for rogues. Crossbow feats get you sneak attack die on crossbows, but short of a feat-heavy game, you can't really do much of it.

[Ravens_cry]

Use the Savage Drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) instead for an extra +2 Int. (Don't take the racial levels.)

Damn, and here I was hoping Savage Drow would be an actual alternate race for Drow.
Hmm . . .
****
With the death of their spider goddess, drow civilization was scattered through the Underdark, some even making their way to the surface to escape the terrible vengeance of they they long enslaved. . .

[radthemad4]

Quickdraw and two weapon fighting let's you throw daggers at range when you win initiative and they're still flat footed, or when a wizard casts grease on them or whatever and also melee it up by flanking afterwards.

Also, if playing 3.5 (this doesn't work in PF) and if your DM allows it (some don't) you can do ranged touch sneak attacks with Alchemists' Fires, Acid Flasks, Holy Water, etc. (more applicable in higher levels after you can get a handy haversack or something, can afford to carry many of them and/or can convince a spellcaster buddy to craft them for you (or craft them yourself if your DM allows you to (many do) ) but they might still come in handy in early levels).

[Bartmanhomer]

Quickdraw and two weapon fighting let's you throw daggers at range when you win initiative and they're still flat footed, or when a wizard casts grease on them or whatever and also melee it up by flanking afterwards.

Also, if playing 3.5 (this doesn't work in PF) and if your DM allows it (some don't) you can do ranged touch sneak attacks with Alchemists' Fires, Acid Flasks, Holy Water, etc. (more applicable in higher levels after you can get a handy haversack or something, can afford to carry many of them and/or can convince a spellcaster buddy to craft them for you (or craft them yourself if your DM allows you to (many do) ) but they might still come in handy in early levels). Nice combo. Anyway. I'm going to start making my male Drow rogue character sheet unless if somebody else have any suggestions?

[gorfnab]

Nice combo. Anyway. I'm going to start making my male Drow rogue character sheet unless if somebody else have any suggestions?
Some light reading material
The Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6)

Drow have some interesting Spell Like Abilities that can somewhat be useful to deal with. Here is a post that shows what you can do with them.
Drow Fighter Utility Caster (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5111.msg73307#msg73307)

If you have a build idea in mind (class levels, feats, possible equipment) you could post it here and get even more guidance.

[Stealth Marmot]

I'm confused, are you somehow implying that small children don't inherently already have the class "rogue"?

Because saying "rogue child" is redundant if my experience with children has been any indication.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm confused, are you somehow implying that small children don't inherently already have the class "rogue"?

Because saying "rogue child" is redundant if my experience with children has been any indication.

I don't know what you mean by that. Can you explain a bit more please?

[Stealth Marmot]

I don't know what you mean by that. Can you explain a bit more please?

I've come to the conclusion that every child in the real world has at least 5 levels in rogue.

[Bartmanhomer]

I've come to the conclusion that every child in the real world has at least 5 levels in rogue.

Ok...but this is an RPG game. Not real life. I don't want to sound like a jerk or anything but I don't know how you compared a child in the real world and a game. Also the Male Drow Rogue that I creating in Level 1.

[Stealth Marmot]

Ok...but this is an RPG game. Not real life. I don't want to sound like a jerk or anything but I don't know how you compared a child in the real world and a game. Also the Male Drow Rogue that I creating in Level 1.

I was joking. Badly it seems.

[Bartmanhomer]

I was joking. Badly it seems. Yeah it was a very bad joke. Next time if you want to joke about something, make it more humorous and specific.

[Deadline]

Yeah it was a very bad joke. Next time if you want to joke about something, make it more humorous and specific.

As a person who has two kids, I thought it was hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[Bartmanhomer]

As a person who has two kids, I thought it was hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

Well I didn't find it funny at all because I didn't understand the joke.

[radthemad4]

The joke is that kids are very sneaky (like Rogues), which having babysat my niblings a lot recently, I fully agree with.

[Bartmanhomer]

The joke is that kids are very sneaky (like Rogues), which having babysat my niblings a lot recently, I fully agree with.

Oh so that the joke? Now it makes sense.

[Bartmanhomer]

Ok here's Eric Spade character sheet. Please keep in mind that he's a young child.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1025339

[Menzath]

Is that craft skill in poison making? Or for back story reasons? Otherwise having those points in escape artist or another rogue-ey skill(forgery, sleight of hand) may better(and fit the character theme/story)

[Bartmanhomer]

Is that craft skill in poison making? Or for back story reasons? Otherwise having those points in escape artist or another rogue-ey skill(forgery, sleight of hand) may better(and fit the character theme/story)
Yeah I'm still polishing my character sheet.

[Bartmanhomer]

Well I'm finished with my character sheet.

[Inevitability]

Some remarks:

-Your move speed is not listed.
-A crossbow uses bolts, not arrows.
-You know most poisons are technically evil, right? You can still craft Drow Injury Poison, but your DM may be against a Good person crafting stuff like Black Lotus Extract.
-Your languages aren't listed. You automatically know Common, Elven and Undercommon and can select up to three of Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome and Goblin.
-You either have some money left or a very tight budget. In case of the first, I suggest buying some useful items. Aboleth Mucus.

[Bartmanhomer]

OK I fix the sheet a bit

[Bartmanhomer]

I put Eric Spade in level 1 so that way he'll get the level advantage. Anything else that you want me to add?

[Jay R]

I played David, a 9-year-old Thief in original D&D. His greatest moment was walking up to a guardsman, sniffling, and saying, "Where's my daddy? I'm tired, and I'm thirsty, and I'm hungry, and I'm scared, and I can't find my daddy, and .. and ..."

When the guard turned to get him some food, David sneak attacked.

[Inevitability]

I put Eric Spade in level 1 so that way he'll get the level advantage. Anything else that you want me to add?

What, exactly, do you mean by 'level advantage'?

[Bartmanhomer]

What, exactly, do you mean by 'level advantage'?

A child regardless of his/her class and race always start at Level 0. Since I want Eric to be at Level 1. I just thought it was fair to have his Level advantage. That what I meant by it.

[Inevitability]

A child regardless of his/her class and race always start at Level 0. Since I want Eric to be at Level 1. I just thought it was fair to have his Level advantage. That what I meant by it.

There is no such rule. In fact, there are no rules for playing children at all. That means you can just start at level 1 even if you're playing a child, because the fact that you're playing a child means the DM is going to let you start at level 1.

[Bartmanhomer]

There is no such rule. In fact, there are no rules for playing children at all. That means you can just start at level 1 even if you're playing a child, because the fact that you're playing a child means the DM is going to let you start at level 1.

What a relief. I'm glad that a child is playable in D&D 3.5 :smile:

[Bartmanhomer]

I played David, a 9-year-old Thief in original D&D. His greatest moment was walking up to a guardsman, sniffling, and saying, "Where's my daddy? I'm tired, and I'm thirsty, and I'm hungry, and I'm scared, and I can't find my daddy, and .. and ..."

When the guard turned to get him some food, David sneak attacked.

Ha. Epic! I'm going to use that lost child act when I'm facing enemies like that on my third game! :biggrin:

[Inevitability]

What a relief. I'm glad that a child is playable in D&D 3.5 :smile:

That's not what I said, I said your DM could allow it. Nothing in the default rules allows playing children, just like nothing in the default rules forbids playing children.

[Troacctid]

That's not what I said, I said your DM could allow it. Nothing in the default rules allows playing children, just like nothing in the default rules forbids playing children.
Actually I believe the default rules say that all PCs begin play as adults. There are even minimum starting ages based on your race and class.

[Inevitability]

Actually I believe the default rules say that all PCs begin play as adults. There are even minimum starting ages based on your race and class.

Fair point, though I must say there's ways around that.

[Bartmanhomer]

That's not what I said, I said your DM could allow it. Nothing in the default rules allows playing children, just like nothing in the default rules forbids playing children.

Oh I'm sorry. I misunderstood.

[Bartmanhomer]

Does anybody else have any comments or suggestions for my Drow rogue?

[Bartmanhomer]

All right I'm playing a regular adult male Drow rogue and so far I'm doing great. I decided that I want to multiclass a Swordsage my second level. Any suggestions anyone?

[Inevitability]

All right I'm playing a regular adult male Drow rogue and so far I'm doing great. I decided that I want to multiclass a Swordsage my second level. Any suggestions anyone?

Swordsage is a great class. How many levels do you want to take in it? Depending on your build delaying the level a bit may be better.

[Crake]

All right I'm playing a regular adult male Drow rogue and so far I'm doing great. I decided that I want to multiclass a Swordsage my second level. Any suggestions anyone?

You are gonna die sooooo fast with 8 con. If the hp doesn't get you, the inevitable fortitude save you need to roll will.

[Bartmanhomer]

Swordsage is a great class. How many levels do you want to take in it? Depending on your build delaying the level a bit may be better.

Will my DM said we're going to play by Level 5 or 6. So I say about 2 or 3 levels. :smile:

[Bartmanhomer]

You are gonna die sooooo fast with 8 con. If the hp doesn't get you, the inevitable fortitude save you need to roll will.

I update my character sheet just to let you and everybody else know.

[Bartmanhomer]

Which tier category does a multiclass rogue/swordsage belong to? Is it Bottom, Low, Middle, High or Top tier?

[Inevitability]

Which tier category does a multiclass rogue/swordsage belong to? Is it Bottom, Low, Middle, High or Top tier?

What is this bottom/low/middle/high/top stuff you're talking about? The usually used tiers on this site are (from most to least powerful): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, with occasional references to a 'tier 0' that's pretty much strictly TO.

In this situation, a rogue/swordsage would be tier 3, perhaps tier 4 if built poorly. This is generally considered a very good place for a class to be in terms of power, provided it doesn't deviate greatly from the other players' characters.

[Bartmanhomer]

What is this bottom/low/middle/high/top stuff you're talking about? The usually used tiers on this site are (from most to least powerful): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, with occasional references to a 'tier 0' that's pretty much strictly TO.

In this situation, a rogue/swordsage would be tier 3, perhaps tier 4 if built poorly. This is generally considered a very good place for a class to be in terms of power, provided it doesn't deviate greatly from the other players' characters.

Oh I'm sorry. I was thinking of the Super Smash Bros. Tier List. :smile: