Colonists / Immigration Question

[kalos72]

So as some of you may have seen from some of my other posts here lately, my group runs a 3.5E rules / 4E timeline version of Neverwinter in the FR.

We are constantly looking at new ways to get more people to move to the rebuild city.

We have started to work a plan to organize orphanages in major cities, moving the good aligned kids to Neverwinter. All others will still get a good happy home but we wont move them to Neverwinter most likely.

We have talked about commoner advancement scenarios. "Always want to be a wizard? Move to Neverwinter and you can join the Neverwinter Wizards Guild" type enticements.

We have started to walk through a scenario about buying slaves and bringing them back to Neverwinter and freeing them, 10-30% might stay. Also expanding this to other Spelljamming spheres (Greyhawk, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, etc,) and dealing with the Illithids or Neogi for slaves. Buying them but freeing them regardless of their decision to stay.

But what about standard immigration type scenarios? We assumed that eventually people will just move there as its reputation improves but would offering people, the right people, gold to move, giving them a free house, maybe a horse and tools, etc help immigration? How can I quantify that in game?

We tend to overthink most things...but when your goal is to compete with Waterdeep, you have got a high bar to start with. Mind you we are also selective, has to be good aligned(or other with GREAT cause), decent people. Race/sex doesnt matter, religion could if they serve an Evil god.


Thoughts?

[weckar]

The fact that they need to be good aligned is a point of worry. 90% (some may say 99%) of commoners will be strictly Neutral.
Plus, is segregation itself really that Good?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Neverwinter is on a river delta on the sword coast. It's naturally positioned as a trade-hub for the area and, apparently, the soil is quite fertile and can be worked year 'round because of the unnatural warmth (providing the spellplague did't disrupt the nearby fire elementals). Unless agents of Waterdeep based factions actively work against it, neverwinter would likely recover on its own without you, I suspect.

Offer plots of land and maybe a mule to work it and people will flock to it like the mid-west in the 1800's. Artisans will follow hard on the homesteaders' heels and fisheries will take root quite rapidly as the city regrows. You basically have to be a moron or actively sabotaged to screw this up.

[Coidzor]

Competing with Waterdeep isn't a matter of population or even industry alone.

You want adventurers using your city as a base of operations that bring more good than bad and are reasonably attached to the place continuing to serve as a market. You want the support services for adventurers, like magical item crafters. You want powerful organizations and individuals invested in the continued existence and operation of the city.

Part of that requires tales of adventurers striking it rich in the area, and may require the potentially risky move of encouraging adventurers to use Neverwinter as a base for expeditions to Mount Hotenow and the ruined dwarf holds there.

If Luskan is still ruined, you don't have to worry about them as much, though Luskan elements will almost certainly be more apt to sabotage you than waterdhavian ones, as Waterdeep should actually be served by regaining a trading partner. If Luskan is also rebuilding, you may have to take steps, either to try to improve relations or to make sure Neverwinter is dominant.

May take a page from 5e's book and look into re-establishing some of the dwarf holds within what should be your sphere of influence. Phandelver's lost mine might not be able to be found for a few decades when the pieces are put together, but on the off chance it is, getting a source of near mass produced magical weapons would be the kind of thing that would draw adventurers and be a feather in the cap of the region, and also benefit the city greatly, especially if a favorable trade deal as part of reestablishing the holds was made.

I believe there are a few lost elven cities and ruins in the area that would make good dungeon delves to do and then advertise for other adventurers. You'll basically want to search for as many adventure hooks as possible and then follow up on some and publicize as many as you can that won't be counterproductive, that is.

[hamishspence]

The fact that they need to be good aligned is a point of worry. 90% (some may say 99%) of commoners will be strictly Neutral.


"Humans tend toward no alignment, not even Neutral" (PHB).

A case could be made that the Neutral commoner, while more frequent than the Evil or Good one, isn't vastly more frequent.

[kalos72]

Well, good is more "not evil" but very valid points.

Also great points about adventuring and the like. We have Gauntlgrym and Shanadar outposts integrated into our AoO.

One thought to help the adventuring input, offer a reward for troll/orc/goblin ears/tongues maybe? Could I scry a body part to make sure its real?

Something like the party needs to register at the city and then 10sp an ear or something?

[Zombimode]

One thought to help the adventuring input, offer a reward for troll/orc/goblin ears/tongues maybe? Could I scry a body part to make sure its real?

I don't know if advocating genocide is helping you in your goal of creating a "shining" Neverwinter Nights :smallamused:

[sleepyphoenixx]

We have talked about commoner advancement scenarios. "Always want to be a wizard? Move to Neverwinter and you can join the Neverwinter Wizards Guild" type enticements.

We have started to walk through a scenario about buying slaves and bringing them back to Neverwinter and freeing them, 10-30% might stay. Also expanding this to other Spelljamming spheres (Greyhawk, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, etc,) and dealing with the Illithids or Neogi for slaves. Buying them but freeing them regardless of their decision to stay.

But what about standard immigration type scenarios? We assumed that eventually people will just move there as its reputation improves but would offering people, the right people, gold to move, giving them a free house, maybe a horse and tools, etc help immigration? How can I quantify that in game?

How exactly do you pay for that? Or better, how do you expect the city to sustain itself?
You can't have a prosperous city that is completely reliant on financial aid from a group of adventurers.

For the first thing you could take a page out of the magic academy in Silverymoon. Those who can't pay can still get in by serving in the Spellguard after graduation.
This is good in more than one way. You establish a center of magical learning, you get potentially powerful spellcasters that regard the city as a home or at least a former home and you get spellcasters for the city guard.

About buying slaves, that's not only wasteful but also goes against your stated alignment. Paying money to slavers supports slavery. You should free them instead by killing slavers.
If you want to spend money on that offer rewards for it, which should also bring in good-aligned adventurers.
But paying slavers only increases slavery and makes slavers rich, which probably isn't something you want.

As for the third it shouldn't even be necessary. Neverwinter is in a prosperous region, in an ideal location both for farming and as a trading hub. As long as you can provide security people should come by themselves. You can offer cheap deals on land if you really want to, but that's as far as you should need to go.

[kalos72]

Killing orc and goblins is genocide? Thats half my life in Neverwinter!

Buying slaves has always been a moral question for the group. In the one hand, we cannot stop the entire Neogi or Illithid nation in the Spelljammer world, isn't freeing the ones we can a good thing or your actually freeing them after? I would add that creating and supporting an anti-slavery group where we attack their ships to free the slaves is also a proposal but that WILL have a backlash.

We would not buy "locally", if that helps. I also like the idea of paying rewards for killing slavers and offering sanctuary to the freed slaves in Neverwinter.

Entry to the wizards guild, bard college, ranger school is state sponsored for the time being to entice more immigration.

Financially, this is coming from the players pockets right now but will eventually get moved to city coffers once its better established. The players are eating most of the upfront costs for improvement however.

[Coidzor]

Killing orc and goblins is genocide? Thats half my life in Neverwinter!

Buying slaves has always been a moral question for the group. In the one hand, we cannot stop the entire Neogi or Illithid nation in the Spelljammer world, isn't freeing the ones we can a good thing or your actually freeing them after? I would add that creating and supporting an anti-slavery group where we attack their ships to free the slaves is also a proposal but that WILL have a backlash.

We would not buy "locally", if that helps. I also like the idea of paying rewards for killing slavers and offering sanctuary to the freed slaves in Neverwinter.

Entry to the wizards guild, bard college, ranger school is state sponsored for the time being to entice more immigration.

Financially, this is coming from the players pockets right now but will eventually get moved to city coffers once its better established. The players are eating most of the upfront costs for improvement however.

You probably don't want to aggravate the current situation with Many-Arrows (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Many-Arrows), even if they are fairly distant.

If you're small fry in Faerun, not even the grand scheme of Toril, you're better off not even drawing the attention of the Neogi or Illithid on the scale of crystal spheres. Further, bringing a bunch of coolies from multiple different worlds to a corner of Faerun is going to attract way more attention than it is worth from regional and continental powers. Also, is going to be worse for stability than a bunch of Faerunian immigrants.

As I recall, slavery is officially illegal basically everywhere in the general region of Neverwinter that has laws.

That's all well and good, but you need to make sure you don't bankrupt yourselves or the city, and part of that is making sure the outlays are investments that will see a return.

[daremetoidareyo]

The quickest way to get a mass migration is to make some other piece of densely populated geography unbearable to live in. Perhaps fund some ideological rebels to make life miserable somewhere nearby? Either that or steal all their drinking water...then insist on selling it back to them. They'll move.

[weckar]

"Humans tend toward no alignment, not even Neutral" (PHB).

A case could be made that the Neutral commoner, while more frequent than the Evil or Good one, isn't vastly more frequent.

I honestly don't know the Realms well enough to know this question mostly concerned humans.

[Coidzor]

I honestly don't know the Realms well enough to know this question mostly concerned humans.

They are more commonly trafficked in by Illithid slavers than elves, simply due to their faster breeding and quicker maturation. ...I cannot for the life of me remember if Illithid can even implant in elves, come to think of it.

I think the relative abundance of humans and their lack of special resistances to mind control (Halflings and Dwarves, for instance, would have bonuses on their saving throws, IIRC) would make them more likely to be traded by the Neogi.

In terms of Faerun, elves largely migrated from the area around Neverwinter and left Faerun entirely for some elf-only islands, are in elven areas on the opposite side of the region, or are in isolationist Elven enclaves that might have died off from inbreeding, their kids realizing that being part of the Elven KKK was a losing proposition, or the Spellplague. Dwarves are similarly concentrated in more removed areas and relatively low in population, both in general and in the region.

Halflings... I think there's actually a fair number of those around as a bunch of them fled the Shining South when it got nuked by the Spellplague. No clue about gnomes.

[weckar]

I actually wasn't even talking about the slavery issue. My original point was regarding the orphanages.

[kalos72]

I actually wasn't even talking about the slavery issue. My original point was regarding the orphanages.

Does the same thought apply? Overall I am offering children a safe home to grow up in. For those that are not evil lets say, they grow up in Neverwinter. The others grow up where they are. Is that a bad thing?

[Vogie]

But what about standard immigration type scenarios? We assumed that eventually people will just move there as its reputation improves but would offering people, the right people, gold to move, giving them a free house, maybe a horse and tools, etc help immigration? How can I quantify that in game?

We tend to overthink most things...but when your goal is to compete with Waterdeep, you have got a high bar to start with. Mind you we are also selective, has to be good aligned(or other with GREAT cause), decent people. Race/sex doesnt matter, religion could if they serve an Evil god.
Thoughts?

The easiest way to optimize immigration growth is to have some sort of labor crisis. Maybe a plague in the recent past, some sort of other natural disaster, maybe a war, maybe (to steal from IRL countries) low birthrates have caused a shortage of youth, so the overall population is too old to work. Regardless the cause of the labor shortage, if the region is prosperous, immigration will happen. We actually saw this in the US in the tech industry within the last decade - there weren't enough computer scientists/software engineers, et cetera, in the citizen population to keep up with the tech industries, so there was a mass immigration of people with those degrees and qualifications from all over the world. This also happens when there's any place that doesn't have any industry has a previously-unknown natural-resource discovery, such as oil or gold.

In your zone, create a shortage of some variety, and the economy will incentivize commoners to fill that. Other ways this could happen are:

area-wide competitions to find people with magical knacks
an overabundance of empty homes so home prices are low
scholarships from guilds
Missionaries looking for true believers, or even looking to collect the orphans/homeless from other areas to move them to the target location
government-subsidized travel to the region (you get here, we'll reimburse you travel expenses)
Some sort of Service program that transcends the normal politicking (think The Night's Watch from the Game Of Thrones)
A sort of draft, with recruiters looking for people meeting certain criteria

[Coidzor]

Does the same thought apply? Overall I am offering children a safe home to grow up in. For those that are not evil lets say, they grow up in Neverwinter. The others grow up where they are. Is that a bad thing?

I suppose there's an argument that could be made that you'd be shifting the general region's alignment towards evil by having alignment drain.

OTOH, how many children are going to have Evil alignments without being basically Unholy Scions or part of a race like Phaerimms or Chromatic Dragons? And those sorts of things are cases where their children aren't even, well, children in the sense that humanoids can be.

On the whole, probably an unnecessary check, and using BoED Diplomacy rules you can have guidance counselors take care of converting any evil pre-teens and teenagers into good, upstanding model citizens.

Heck, you can do that enmass as long as you have a religious order involved, because they naturally make people with good charisma scores have training in diplomacy and a worldview that would make them want to do this.

Also, you can totally get a few breeding pairs of kobolds and goblins, use Diplomancy to make them LG model citizens, and grow yourself some fast-reproducing allied tribes to help occupy and inhabit the undercity so that other creatures that are distinctly unsavory aren't liable to move in. Also, if you ensure that the kobolds have good mine-foremen, they can greatly expand the size of your city by making it expand vertically below ground.

Also, space and a labor force for light-sensitive manufactoring.

[kalos72]

NICE Coidzor!!!

I was not sure if you could "turn" a young teen from evil that way so I avoided it all together but it was my first thought. I just wasn't sure if it mechanically possible.

I like the kobolds idea but I already have a group of Drow worshipping Eilistraee occupying the undercity, but the more the merrier I guess. Especially if I run them as mining/excavation teams. Is that straight Leadership RAW that I can turn their alignment?

[Coidzor]

Using Diplomacy to alter alignments has nothing to do with the Leadership rules, at least not directly.

Edit: BoED being Book of Exalted Deeds.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The rules for using Diplomacy to change someones alignment are in BoED.

[kalos72]

The group came up with a great idea on this orphanage line...

What if you moved them to a demiplane with a time enhancement, say 1 day prime to 1 year demi? That way you could teach the orphans the "power of Ilmater" and train them in a profession we need in say 3 weeks real time...

I have seem many references to you being able to control time on your own demiplane but haven't found anything true RAW on it, I dont see why it wouldn't be allowed?

[Coidzor]

The group came up with a great idea on this orphanage line...

What if you moved them to a demiplane with a time enhancement, say 1 day prime to 1 year demi? That way you could teach the orphans the "power of Ilmater" and train them in a profession we need in say 3 weeks real time...

I have seem many references to you being able to control time on your own demiplane but haven't found anything true RAW on it, I dont see why it wouldn't be allowed?

Well, they might grow up a bit weirder if they're raised in an isolated fast time demiplane by outsiders or simulacra or simulacra of outsiders, I suppose.

Other people might think you're doing something nefarious with them if the orphans just disappear. But they're also orphans, so few people would care in the first place.

As for why fast time demiplanes might not be allowed, well, it's a very powerful buffing mechanism, since one could disappear for a short period of time and come back fully rested and healed and buffed.

[kalos72]

I thought of it is a cloister, never leaving the "monastery" type scenario...

But again, they are orphans, as long as they are gone will too many people care? But if you had a priest of Ilmater tell you the children were sent to The Grey Keep for a life dedicated to the church, how many would contest it really?

I could always let them use the portal i have setup to go there and speak with the children or what have you? With certain magical/physical precautions.

[Sheogoroth]

Manufacture a gold rush.
Doesn't need to be gold to have a gold rush, just a few people "finding" gold and the mass spreading of rumors about a gold rush.

Half of the people in the California gold rush(roughly 150k people) were immigrants.
From Wikipedia, The most famous quote of the California Gold Rush was by Brannan; after he had hurriedly set up a store to sell gold prospecting supplies, Brannan strode through the streets of San Francisco, holding aloft a vial of gold, shouting "Gold! Gold! Gold from the American River!"

Also, providing easier ways to travel to your land(stagecoach companies, wiping out bandits/wild animals, etc.) always helps.

[kalos72]

Mt group was thinking about travel to and from actually...

Halfling Outriders to patrol the roads and a stagecoach service from Waterdeep/Mirabar/Silvermoon/Baldur's Gate, etc...

We had thought about a Lightning Rail (Eberron) type of service up and down the coast but...thought that might too much.

[Eisfalken]

Even in D&D, the solution here isn't some get-rich-quick scam, but just plain ol' feudalism.

It's basically a scam old as time itself. You find some mercenary/adventurer types, and make them a deal: if they can fight off the various threats in an area, they get land grants and noble titles. This lets them get a nice chunk of tax money (from the peasants working the land they protect, the merchants trading under their protection, etc.), with a percentage sent up to Lord Dagult for some military help in case someone tries to take it from them. I won't get into how you'll get rid of the Many-Arrows orcs or the Nasher rebels; this is the kind of thing that veers waaaaay off course from the main story set up for Neverwinter. All I will say is that if the DM is prepared to make these changes to the setting, then you have to scheme on getting rid of each problem in whatever way is most efficient.

Having said this, your best bet to find those wealthy enough to fund a military operation may be some disaffected Waterdhavian nobles. If they can't make themselves important up there, maybe you can talk them into giving it a try in Neverwinter. Repeat this in other major cities where there may be nobles who just can't seem to get ahead.

For getting peasants there, look for refugees in war-torn areas as well as those dissatisfied with their local tyrant. This last part is tricky, because only a moron lets their taxable work force walk off to greener pastures, but organizing a mass exodus could be a great adventure. Otherwise, the way you get legal colonists is basically to set up a shop in various major cities and sign up folks for transport to the new lands. Make sure you get the right mix of skills in there, though, because otherwise you'll end up with fifty silversmiths and two farmers, and now you've got a problem on your hands. The colony office may also need to arrange transportation, depending on how you work this.

There's another good source for colonists you may not have thought of, though: criminals. Not everyone in a prison got there because they're some evil piece of garbage; more than a few are there because they didn't want to starve, or were forced into an impossible choice ("commit this crime or I will murder your whole family"), or were in fact framed and are actually innocent. If you can slip in with wild shape or polymorph and discreetly scan for crooks who actually might be willing to live an honest life, freedom and safety are probably more than enough to entice them to become tenement farmers. You can usually work out a deal with the authorities to release certain prisoners, but you may also have to deal with other complications (such as the aforementioned threats to loved ones, or a nice exciting prison break to get those you want on your land into your hands).

On a related note, some enemies might be enticed to work for you. No, really. I doubt you'll get a lot of orcs, goblins, or giants due to their lifestyle and such, but the Nasher rebels may simply need to be offered a deal (maybe arrange a sort of archaic "commune" where they just pay some taxes in exchange for the right to run themselves however they want), and some of the barbarians might be convinced to give this whole civilization schtick a go. I would at least try; it usually costs very little to negotiate a deal, as opposed to the costs in resources (mostly time and money) to utterly destroying a threat.

Honestly, advance-aging orphans on other planes is a bit of a overblown idea. If that's the level of magic you're dealing with, you literally can do 20 other things that are either more efficient or better in the long-run. Christ, if I'm making my own demiplane, I probably don't give a flying fig about Neverwinter; I'll be colonizing my demiplane instead.

Once you get the land secure, and some folks move in to work for you, you need to get things running on farming and other income. That's pretty much easy-mode with the right amount and type of magic. A 6th-level wizard can crank out effigy constructs with as many as 6 HD, but be aware that effigies are semi-expensive at those levels (a heavy horse effigy costs 11k gp, a Medium-sized humanoid with no racial HD runs you about 4k gp). A 5th-level druid or cleric of Chauntea gets you plant growth (increases crops and the "overgrowth" option helps with defenses) and create food and water (which can be used to feed folks until the first harvest comes in). Things get better the higher level spell slots you have access to; if you have access to 6th-level spells, it will take less than a year to create a fully-formed settlement with buildings, fortifications, a healthy crop to feed everyone, and plenty of supplies to fight off hostiles.

For land transport, consider setting up a good wagon train: four heavy horse effigies pulling up to 2-3 wagons. A&EG rules (which weren't contradicted or updated in 3.5) state that you divide wheeled vehicle weight (including what's being carried) by 4 for calculating dray encumbrance. Get some guards with crossbows, maybe some barding for the effigies, and you have yourself a nice little setup.

Hope this helps.