Negative LA-Assignment thread

[Daedroth]

Inspired by and related to the LA-Assignment thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485938-The-LA-assignment-thread


Some critters from the thread have too much RHD to even be good with a LA +0 so they should have some kind of negative LA to be balanced.


But...what is negative LA? Its not just having more HD than class levels, that would be problematic for early entry. Instead, the user AMX proposed something interesting: Partial Gestalt.

For each level of LA a player using a monster can gestalt her highest levels with normal classes: For example, a monster with 6 RHD and -2 of LA would have his two highest RHD levels gestalted with one class (or one diferent class each one), making up for they lack of class features.

To be fair, i'm not realy good at this, but someone has to start this, i hope i recieve usefull feedback on this.

Users like khadgar567 have manifested their interest in doind that with some monsters (in his case, dragon) so if someone wants to rate some LA -0 monster, please, go on. Because of this, I won't follow any particular order. When a critter gets some nice negative LA i'll just add a link here with its name and LA.





Monster
LA


Bugbear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21399451&postcount=2)
-1

[Daedroth]

First of all i want to start with bugbear: the big goblin has the ability scores of a water orc plus 2 dextery and no wis/int penalty.

He has 3 RHD with d8 hp, reflex good save, regular BAB (1 lost point only, though) and no martial weapon nor medium armor competence (easily fixed with one level on a martial class, though).

On the plus side he has scent, +3 NA and +4 Move Silently. Not the best class features around.

His more obvious career is being a classical BSF (you could try a rogue, i won't try a gish (unless you consider ranger or paladin a true gish), much less a full caster) or a ToB'er (Just 2 IL lost, not that bad), for example, barbarian, lets compare him to a water orc barbarian:
- d12 vs d8, important on a front liner, it means 8 hp less
- 1 point less of BAB, relevant for entries in martial prestige classes
- only 2+int skill points per level, until ECL 9 the higher int score won't compensate
- No light sensitivity.... but sundark goggles cost just 10gp.
- Rage, but that would buf off with just the first barbarian level of the bugbear
- He gets his class features 3 levels after, and some of them are quite nice
- He won't be able to qualify for frenzied Berserker until ECL 10 because of feats (two of them require rage so...), though bear warrior (So you will be a literal bugBEAR( will just need 1 more level than usual.


Personally i think bugbear is not THAT bad, but bad enough to deserve LA -1. What do you think?

[GilesTheCleric]

What about reducing RHD instead of giving negative LAs?

[javcs]

What about reducing RHD instead of giving negative LAs?

Outright reducing RHD complicates things unnecessarily.
Reducing RHD affects all kinds of things: saves, feats, skill points, BAB, HP, any (Ex) or (Su) ability that has a save. For creatures that have have attributes related to HD, such as size categories or abilities gained with so many HD, like Elementals, Dragons, etc ...



I think negative LA being that many levels of RHD being gestalted with class levels is probably the least complicated method of compensating for excess RHD.

[Daedroth]

Outright reducing RHD complicates things unnecessarily.
Reducing RHD affects all kinds of things: saves, feats, skill points, BAB, HP, any (Ex) or (Su) ability that has a save. For creatures that have have attributes related to HD, such as size categories or abilities gained with so many HD, like Elementals, Dragons, etc ...



I think negative LA being that many levels of RHD being gestalted with class levels is probably the least complicated method of compensating for excess RHD.



That was already discussed in the other thread and the author discarded the RHD removal option.

[rrwoods]

What's the issue with just handling negative LA the same way as positive LA? Eg a race with 5 HD and -2 LA would start the game as level 5, ECL 3 (3000 XP) Your character level is still 5 for all purposes EXCEPT experience gain.

[Inevitability]

What's the issue with just handling negative LA the same way as positive LA? Eg a race with 5 HD and -2 LA would start the game as level 5, ECL 3 (3000 XP) Your character level is still 5 for all purposes EXCEPT experience gain.

I've answered this question several times in the original thread, and the answer was always the same: the game balance gets screwed over.

The bugbear for one, with its 3 RHD, might 'deserve' -1 LA. However, this means an ECL 20 bugbear will qualify for Epic Feats, including Epic Spellcasting.

Another example are all the HD-dependent abilities the game has. If an ECL 5 creature has 15 HD, that's going to mess up the balance of those powers.

[remetagross]

At any rate, a LA-2 seems out of order, a Bugbear is not that weak.

[Daedroth]

Well, i made this some days ago, but the message gost lost and all my analysis.

Lets made, the red dragon wyrmling

The good:
- 6+ Str, +4 Con, nice but low for they HD.
- +6 NA
- Sovereign Archetipes (Dragons of Eberron)
- Great HD: Good BAB, all good saves, 6+int skill points
- Inmunity to fire, sleep and paralisis. Fire is a very common damage source so its useful.
- Awesome senses: Darkvision 120', Blindsense 60', Improved low-lightvision
- Good speed: 40' and flight 150' (poor)
- 5 natural attacks (Claw,claw,wing,wing and bite)
- Cheesy stuff for dragons

The bad:
- 2d10 fire breath weapon, i don't think is woth to take quicken breath
- Vulnerability to cold
- Extra cost on armors
- You need a mouthpick weapon.
- No proficences of his own (Fixed with his frist martial class level or Wyrm of War)
- No spellcraft as class skill! Why? Seriously, why?

The ugly
- 7 levels lost of class features! (Thats huge)
- Chessy stuff against dragons


The sovereign archetypes:
- Loredrake: Caster level 2, spellcraft as class skill. Downside: now your HD is d10.
- Wyrm of war: Armor and simple/martial weapon proficency. One combat/monster feat for every 4 HD (and not just your RHD,all HD)
- Stalking Wyrm: Not as good as Wyrm of War but useful. Hide, move silently, survival and Track will make you a decent scout given your nice movement speeds and special senses and unlike other scouts you are though and fast enough to actually escape alive and return with your party if thinks turn ugly.
- Lightkeeper: Rebuke or turn undead 4/day, you can chose no matter your actual alignment. They can be handy.


Roles:
Spellcaster: You can use Loredrake to qualify for Ur-Priest and have access to level 9 casting before 20's.... or not be a red dragon wyrmling and qualify earlier and have useful dips. Yuck.
Gish: Well, i supose that you can use Ur-priest for that, you should aim for prc with their own spellcasting like Runescarred Berserker (You will have serious fluff obstacles, but it can be fun). Better.
Scout: Stalking Wyrm, and with this high number of attacks sneak attack can be devastating. Nice.
Beatstick: The better for you, i think, Wyrm of War and the do whatever you want, you should take one level of Lion Totem Barbarian for the Rage and the Pounce.
Funny one: You aren't actually half-dragon so... take Loredrake/spellcaster dip to be a Dragon Disciple (preferably silver or white, to make up for your vulnerability). I'm just joking here, is silly and not that good :smallbiggrin:.



Personally i think red dragon wyrmling is actually workable, i'm not sure what Negative to assign, and i'm not even sure it needs it.