What happens if you exceed 20 equivalent Spellcasting levels before epic?

[Alphabetmaster]

I was messing around with some cheese, and I realised I wasn't sure what would happen here. If I could, say, achieve an equivalent of 20 levels of sorcerer by ECL 18, what happens if I level up and I want to put another level into sorcerer? I'm confused...

[ExLibrisMortis]

You get a caster level of 21, no additional spells per day, and no additional spells known, as per the ELH description of the spellcasting of a 21st-level sorcerer.

[Alphabetmaster]

Alright. Thank you. I guess I'm going to Wizard this away now.

[Necroticplague]

I was messing around with some cheese, and I realised I wasn't sure what would happen here. If I could, say, achieve an equivalent of 20 levels of sorcerer by ECL 18, what happens if I level up and I want to put another level into sorcerer? I'm confused...

Then you would have the casting of a level 21 Sorceror. Nothing that confusing. Unfortunately, 21-level casters don't get more spells or spells known, though they do get a higher CL.

[Ashtagon]

I'm intrigued. Caster level boosts don't typically increase spells per day or spells known. How are you doing this?

[Zanos]

I'm intrigued. Caster level boosts don't typically increase spells per day or spells known. How are you doing this?
There's a few ways to increase sorcerer casting that I know of. Greater Draconic Rite gives +1.
White Dragonspawn template gives +1.
The Loredrake Soveriegn Archetypes gives +2.

IIRC, trying to turn a creature that is already a Dragon type into a Dragonspawn instead creates a Dragonspawn abomination, which is not nearly as good. So you could get +3 with a Dragonwrought kobold loredrake with the greater draconic rite of passage.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm intrigued. Caster level boosts don't typically increase spells per day or spells known. How are you doing this?
Apart from the method Zanos mentioned, there are some ways to obtain casting without the appropriate levels. Fusion + astral seed, Illithid Savant, Manipulate Form - all abilities to the effect of "take an ability off someone else" can get you casting well beyond your HD.

A relatively straightforward one is the elan shaper who merges with a black ethergaunt, acquiring 17th-level wizard casting at level 14.

[Necroticplague]

There's a few ways to increase sorcerer casting that I know of. Greater Draconic Rite gives +1.
White Dragonspawn template gives +1.
The Loredrake Soveriegn Archetypes gives +2.

IIRC, trying to turn a creature that is already a Dragon type into a Dragonspawn instead creates a Dragonspawn abomination, which is not nearly as good. So you could get +3 with a Dragonwrought kobold loredrake with the greater draconic rite of passage.

Also IIRC, Dragonspawn Abomination roll for some of their traits on a table, which includes '+1 SORC casting', '+2 SORC casting' and "Roll twice, get both, re-rolling any more of this if it comes up', so it has a very slim chance of giving you +3 SORC casting.

EDIT: and on a similar note, there's a poorly-written Faerun creature that casts as a sorceror of their HD, stacking with the Sorceror class. Thus, by going straight sorceror, they got double casting progression. I think it was Phaerim?

[ExLibrisMortis]

EDIT: and on a similar note, there's a poorly-written Faerun creature that casts as a sorceror of their HD, stacking with the Sorceror class. Thus, by going straight sorceror, they got double casting progression. I think it was Phaerim?
That's Sharn. Even more fun with Mystic Theurge - they're also cleric-casters :smallbiggrin:.

[Necroticplague]

That's Sharn. Even more fun with Mystic Theurge - they're also cleric-casters :smallbiggrin:.

Common misconception. Sharn got updated for 3.5 in Shades of Anauroch. Their casting was changed to favored soul/sorcerer, And their casting progression was changed to be '6/6 +1 to one of them for each HD they add using their ability to integrate more conciousness into themselves' (basically 'RHD above the base').

[Jack_Simth]

Common misconception. Sharn got updated for 3.5 in Shades of Anauroch. Their casting was changed to favored soul/sorcerer, And their casting progression was changed to be '6/6 +1 to one of them for each HD they add using their ability to integrate more conciousness into themselves' (basically 'RHD above the base').
The phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun) never got an update, and have the same problem. They are worse, really, as the entry includes a hatchling at 1 rhd and +2 la.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Common misconception. Sharn got updated for 3.5 in Shades of Anauroch. Their casting was changed to favored soul/sorcerer, And their casting progression was changed to be '6/6 +1 to one of them for each HD they add using their ability to integrate more conciousness into themselves' (basically 'RHD above the base').
I thought I remembered something about favoured souls and sharn, thought it was homebrew! Interesting point about the "integrate more conciousness"-ability - it's not in Monsters of Faerûn at all, strangely.

(the phaerimm in the same book do not have any spellcasting, either, which is a tad weird)


The phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun) never got an update, and have the same problem. They are worse, really, as the entry includes a hatchling at 1 rhd and +2 la.
Phaerimm have the weird ability that they cast 'as a sorcerer of their character level', which, in my opinion, doesn't necessarily stack with sorcerer levels. Obviously, it does mean you get to be a full-casting theurge/swiftblade/whatever, so it's definitely problematic either way.