Making the most out of the sun blade as a swashbuckler rogue

[twigg89]

My party and I picked up the sun sword in COS and after some discussion it was given to me. We've had one fight since and I have been using it as a 2h long sword to fight a pack of vampire spawns and it went very well. We hit 4 at session end so I have the opportunity to pick either a feat or an ASI for next session. Stats for my character are 10,16,14,8,12,16. Our other two melee classes are both homebrewed (witcher and steelshaper), I can't link them do to low post count but the important part is they both get an extra attack at 5.

I'm trying to decide if I should pick up the dual wielder feat instead of upping my Dex. As great as the +2 to attack from the sword is (and the mental image of my insane/foolish elf swinging a fire sword 2handed) it seems very risky to rely on a single attack to get sneak attack damage. Dual wielder wasn't in my initial plan but it doesn't seem like to great of a deviation for a class that both has extra ASI's and isn't MAD. The other option is to give the sun blade to one of the other melee dudes and just hope for magical item that better fits with my initial idea. I'm not trying to min/max but I'd like to make sure the party gets good use out of this cool item, even if that means I don't get it.

So how good can I make this weapon for my character and is it worth picking up a feat to keep it to myself?

[User_Undefined]

Small point of fact/clarification. The witcher doesn't get an extra attack until 6.

[twigg89]

Straight from the horses mouth I guess. I should probably give that class another look just to see what kind of shenanigans you can pull.

[Arkhios]

Dual Wielder would certainly be a boon for a Swashbuckler since you already have the ability to dodge out from melee as part of the attack action, leaving you more free to use your bonus action for something else (such as off-hand attack). Swashbuckler is almost literally built to be a dual wielder. (IIRC the class originates from early renaissance fencing where duelists would have a rapier in one hand and a dagger in the other, more to parry the attacks than to deal much damage.

Dual wielding with sun blade and maybe another shortsword means you lose an average of ~1 damage (d10 to d8) but in return you get an average of 3 (1d6 avg. = 3.5) damage more if your off-hand attack hits. Even if it doesn't, having two weapons adds to your defense by giving a +1 to your AC, which even alone is awesome.

To honor the tradition you could wield a dagger in off-hand just for the defense.

[ad_hoc]

Dual Wielder would certainly be a boon for a Swashbuckler since you already have the ability to dodge out from melee as part of the attack action, leaving you more free to use your bonus action for something else (such as off-hand attack). Swashbuckler is almost literally built to be a dual wielder. (IIRC the class originates from early renaissance fencing where duelists would have a rapier in one hand and a dagger in the other, more to parry the attacks than to deal much damage.

Dual wielding with sun blade and maybe another shortsword means you lose an average of ~1 damage (d10 to d8) but in return you get an average of 3 (1d6 avg. = 3.5) damage more if your off-hand attack hits. Even if it doesn't, having two weapons adds to your defense by giving a +1 to your AC, which even alone is awesome.

To honor the tradition you could wield a dagger in off-hand just for the defense.

You're not actually adding +1 to your AC because you are losing it by not taking +2 Dex.

You are also taking a -1 to hit by taking Dual Wielder.

[Arkhios]

You're not actually adding +1 to your AC because you are losing it by not taking +2 Dex.

You are also taking a -1 to hit by taking Dual Wielder.

Sure, if you look at it that way.

[Theodoxus]

I had a similar dilemma with my character that picked up Dawnbringer in OotA. However, he was an elven life cleric... but my dex was decent - I had to decide going with more Dex, Shield Master or maximizing Wisdom. I ultimately decided on Dex. Even though I was wearing plate, so AC wasn't a consideration, increasing to hit, damage and initiative was a bigger boon than either SM or going from 18 ->20 wisdom was.

I'd never build around a plan for a sun blade, but the weapon is definitely worth modifying an existing one if you get the chance to pick one up...

[ad_hoc]

Sure, if you look at it that way.

Is there another way to look at it?

You're also not actually gaining an even d4 in damage. You go from d10 to d8+d6 but that d10 has a better chance to hit than the d6 because the Sunsword is a +2 weapon.

The main benefit is increasing the chance to actually land a sneak attack. So you are spending a feat and using up your bonus action instead of using Cunning Action in order to have a better chance of landing the sneak attack.

I just don't think it is worth it. I would rather take the +2 from the sword and another +1 from boosting Dex.

Against AC 14 with the sword and +2 Dex you are hitting 75% of the time.

If you take Dual Wielder you hit 70% of the time. So 30% of the time you you can use a bonus action attack to try to get that sneak attack damage in. You are only hitting 60% of the time with that bonus attack. So with +2 Dex you are getting sneak attack 75% of the time, with dual wielder; 88%. So 13% more which is about 1/7 and at 2d6 that's about +1dmg/turn.

d10+1*.75=4.875
(d8*.7)+(d6*.6)=5.25

So you're netting about 1.4dmg/turn but giving up your cunning action as well as other bonuses from Dex like initiative and skills.

[twigg89]

Dual Wielder would certainly be a boon for a Swashbuckler since you already have the ability to dodge out from melee as part of the attack action, leaving you more free to use your bonus action for something else (such as off-hand attack). Swashbuckler is almost literally built to be a dual wielder. (IIRC the class originates from early renaissance fencing where duelists would have a rapier in one hand and a dagger in the other, more to parry the attacks than to deal much damage.

Dual wielding with sun blade and maybe another shortsword means you lose an average of ~1 damage (d10 to d8) but in return you get an average of 3 (1d6 avg. = 3.5) damage more if your off-hand attack hits. Even if it doesn't, having two weapons adds to your defense by giving a +1 to your AC, which even alone is awesome.

To honor the tradition you could wield a dagger in off-hand just for the defense.


Up until this point I had been dual wielding a short sword and a dagger, so thematically dual wielding is more consistent than the afternoon I spent pretending to be a avenging paladin. If I do this I will probably pick up a rapier and reskin it as a parrying dagger. That way it just looks like my weapons went up a size or two. It also helps me visualize the +1 AC so it is not just a mechanical thing.



I had a similar dilemma with my character that picked up Dawnbringer in OotA. However, he was an elven life cleric... but my dex was decent - I had to decide going with more Dex, Shield Master or maximizing Wisdom. I ultimately decided on Dex. Even though I was wearing plate, so AC wasn't a consideration, increasing to hit, damage and initiative was a bigger boon than either SM or going from 18 ->20 wisdom was.

I'd never build around a plan for a sun blade, but the weapon is definitely worth modifying an existing one if you get the chance to pick one up...

Assuming this campaign only goes to level 10 I can still max my dex, so the only real difference between this change and my original plan is that I won't have dex maxed by 8 and the floating feat/ASI is locked down early. Of course it is easy to say that but when we are talking months to get to 10 those seemingly small differences can have a sizable impact on the game itself.


Is there another way to look at it?

You're also not actually gaining an even d4 in damage. You go from d10 to d8+d6 but that d10 has a better chance to hit than the d6 because the Sunsword is a +2 weapon.

The main benefit is increasing the chance to actually land a sneak attack. So you are spending a feat and using up your bonus action instead of using Cunning Action in order to have a better chance of landing the sneak attack.

I just don't think it is worth it. I would rather take the +2 from the sword and another +1 from boosting Dex.

Against AC 14 with the sword and +2 Dex you are hitting 75% of the time.

If you take Dual Wielder you hit 70% of the time. So 30% of the time you you can use a bonus action attack to try to get that sneak attack damage in. You are only hitting 60% of the time with that bonus attack. So you are getting sneak attack damage where you wouldn't otherwise about 1/6 turns. At 2d6 that's about +1dmg/turn.

d10+1*.75=4.875
(d8*.7)+(d6*.6)=5.25

So you're netting about 1.4dmg/turn but giving up your cunning action as well as other bonuses from Dex like initiative and skills.

I am pretty new to DnD, is AC14 considered standard? A 75% chance to hit doesn't seem problematic but I don't know how much AC scales for enemies, particularly bosses. Do you think DW is something I should pick up after I max dex or just ignore it all together?

[Arkhios]

Is there another way to look at it?

Yeah, the flavor point of view can sometimes weigh more than unnecessary optimizing. For some people at least. Including myself. Personally, I wouldn't worry that much about a 5% difference in hit chance. But to each their own I guess.

[ad_hoc]

I am pretty new to DnD, is AC14 considered standard? A 75% chance to hit doesn't seem problematic but I don't know how much AC scales for enemies, particularly bosses. Do you think DW is something I should pick up after I max dex or just ignore it all together?

It's more about the type of monster. Constructs and Dragons have high AC, Giants have low AC.

A rough guideline for average monster AC:

CR:AC
1-4: 13
5-8: 15
9-12: 17
13-16: 18
17-20: 19

So at level 4 a "boss monster" for you will have an average AC of around 15. There aren't a lot of dragons, golems, or heavy armour wearing humanoids in CoS so you're probably fine.


Yeah, the flavor point of view can sometimes weigh more than unnecessary optimizing. For some people at least. Including myself. Personally, I wouldn't worry that much about a 5% difference in hit chance. But to each their own I guess.

Your original post, which is what I was replying to, was all about mechanics.

Now you want to move the goal posts to theme/flavour.

If dual wielding is what the player finds fun then the answer is to dual wield.

The actual question asked by the OP was along the lines of whether they should dual wield so they don't give up their chance to sneak attack with 2 weapons.

Personally I don't like to plan out my characters. I like to have them develop in ways I didn't expect based on what happens in the story. Finding a legendary sword is going to have an impact on a character.

[Theodoxus]

I am pretty new to DnD, is AC14 considered standard? A 75% chance to hit doesn't seem problematic but I don't know how much AC scales for enemies, particularly bosses. Do you think DW is something I should pick up after I max dex or just ignore it all together?

I don't have COS, so I don't know specifics regarding the opponents you'll face. But in general, most standard critters in non-boss encounters will have anywhere between 14 and 17 AC. The other thing you want to remember is what you're fighting.

I throw a lot of 'popcorn' at my players. The guys that build boss enders end up wasting a LOT of single target damage on them. If they're hitting for 1d10+15 (using GMW) and the target only has 7 hps... they're leaving a lot of damage on the table they don't need to. Granted, that's a personality quirk with my players, but I caution you to examine what you've been primarily fighting.

A room with 20 kobolds will be a very different fight than one with 2 ogres. Still roughly the same number of hit points and damage, but if you lack AOE, the kobold fight will take far longer, be far deadlier and use up a lot more resources. I've found, on both sides of the DM screen, that building a character to handle the mob generally is more useful than one built to handle solo threats - especially in a martial capacity. (Spellflingers have their own set of quirks and each class comes at that problem in their own way.)


As for DW - on a rogue, I know conventional wisdom says to get more attacks to maximize your SA potential. However, it's actually better to get off turn attacks - either reactions, or through abilities like Commanding Shout. A +2 weapon (like the sun sword) is 2/3 of the max you can get from a magic weapon. If you're only going to 10th, the likelyhood of getting a +3 weapon is pretty close to zilch. So that +2 is the best you'll get. Given the finesse property of the sword itself, its the highest damage potential in the game for a rogue. Maximizing your use with that weapon will go a lot longer for you than anything else you'll do.

Since you're a Swashy, as noted, you don't need to [necessarily] waste your BA on Disengage. (I say necessarily, because it only works on foes you attack - so it's not guaranteed to work in a crowd.) But that does open up Hide. [Which could open up another can of worms, so ask your DM how he rules on hiding in combat.] One of the best ways to increasing your chance to hit is by gaining Advantage on the attack. Attacking from stealth is an easy (potentially) way to accomplish that.

That said, I would personally forego the feat and grab the ASI for Dex. Any increase to your chance of landing a hit is preferable to a smidge more damage from an offhand attack...

OTOH, more attacks are fun, so if you're less concerned with dealing the most damage consistently, and just want to swing some stick, then DW is a decent boost (though still a little meh, in my book).

[Arkhios]

Your original post, which is what I was replying to, was all about mechanics.

Now you want to move the goal posts to theme/flavour.

If dual wielding is what the player finds fun then the answer is to dual wield.

The actual question asked by the OP was along the lines of whether they should dual wield so they don't give up their chance to sneak attack with 2 weapons.

I did try to back my thoughts with mechanics, but behind it all was flavor over function. I'm not saying you're wrong about bumping Dex, I'm just saying that I wouldn't worry that much about the bonuses from ability score to attack, damage, and AC, since with bounded accuracy dexterity 16 is already high enough. Besides, you can't accurately predict how the dice roll. Probabilities are not something that you can count on, so it doesn't really matter whether you have +3 or +4 to your rolls.
Sure, if you can't have fun without having the best possible chance at everything, then obviously you have to take the stat bump.

[ad_hoc]

I did try to back my thoughts with mechanics, but behind it all was flavor over function. I'm not saying you're wrong about bumping Dex, I'm just saying that I wouldn't worry that much about the bonuses from ability score to attack, damage, and AC, since with bounded accuracy dexterity 16 is already high enough. Besides, you can't accurately predict how the dice roll. Probabilities are not something that you can count on, so it doesn't really matter whether you have +3 or +4 to your rolls.
Sure, if you can't have fun without having the best possible chance at everything, then obviously you have to take the stat bump.

This is a very roundabout way of retracting your claim and agreeing with me.

[twigg89]

That said, I would personally forego the feat and grab the ASI for Dex. Any increase to your chance of landing a hit is preferable to a smidge more damage from an offhand attack...

OTOH, more attacks are fun, so if you're less concerned with dealing the most damage consistently, and just want to swing some stick, then DW is a decent boost (though still a little meh, in my book).

Just to clarify, I am not looking at DW for increased damage, but more consistent damage. It seems potentially terrible if I miss my only attack for the turn and therefore get not only no weapon damage but also no sneak attack damage.

[Theodoxus]

DW won't help with that though. It's purely a damage increase, not a bonus to accuracy. You can TWF all day long without the benefit of DW.

[twigg89]

DW won't help with that though. It's purely a damage increase, not a bonus to accuracy. You can TWF all day long without the benefit of DW.

The sun blade is not a light weapon, so you can't dual wield with it without the feat.

[ad_hoc]

Just to clarify, I am not looking at DW for increased damage, but more consistent damage. It seems potentially terrible if I miss my only attack for the turn and therefore get not only no weapon damage but also no sneak attack damage.

I would rather think about the damage/contribution you are making as part of the team or over the course of many rounds. Your burst damage isn't that high, wizards and paladins and the like are going to be doing more than you when it is needed. If you miss on a turn it's not the end of the world.

At level 4 vs AC 14 you are looking at 75% vs 88% to do some damage which is going to happen most of the time.

Let's say you fight something with a higher than average AC at level 6, so say AC 18 which is the average AC of CR 13-16:

+2 Dex - 60%
DW - 75%

So you went from a 13% increase to a 15% increase in chance to hit when it is against something that has a high AC. So you are still in the situation of doing damage once every seven turns where you wouldn't otherwise.

Doesn't seem worth it to give up Cunning Action and take a hit on initiative and skills.

[twigg89]

I would rather think about the damage/contribution you are making as part of the team or over the course of many rounds. Your burst damage isn't that high, wizards and paladins and the like are going to be doing more than you when it is needed. If you miss on a turn it's not the end of the world.

At level 4 vs AC 14 you are looking at 75% vs 88% to do some damage which is going to happen most of the time.

Let's say you fight something with a higher than average AC at level 6, so say AC 18 which is the average AC of CR 13-16:

+2 Dex - 60%
DW - 75%

So you went from a 13% increase to a 15% increase in chance to hit when it is against something that has a high AC. So you are still in the situation of doing damage once every seven turns where you wouldn't otherwise.

Doesn't seem worth it to give up Cunning Action and take a hit on initiative and skills.

You make a good point, 15% isn't a huge change. In general is Cunning Action more valuable than a second chance at sneak attack?

[Joe the Rat]

Depends on the situation.

And that is the point. IF your main hit fails, you have the option to try again to proc (sneak attack is your big hit), swing at someone else in range so they can't opportunity attack you, or do something else entirely (run fast, or disengage if there are a lot of buddies around, or jump behind some cover and try to hide... while carrying a 3' radiant plasma blade. Scratch that last one).

A lot of the swashbuckler is built around Bonus Action options, including dual wielding. And activating your sunblade after sneaking up.

On the extra attack: The other guys are glorified lumberjacks. Chop chop chop. You, my friend, and a swordsman. An artist. You know the value of One Good Strike over a dozen lesser blows. This is the fancy way of saying that you do single hit bursts (which is all or nothing), while the others get multiple shots. This also means that they are more likely to do some damage.

Buddy would get two swings, delivering 1d10+[stat] radiant each time. 8.5 or 9.5 each (if he took the ASI), 17-18 damage if both hit.
When you hit 5 (or 6), you will be doing 1d10+3d6+Dex radiant on a sneak attack hit. 19, 20 w/ASI. And that keeps adding d6s. One on one? Sneak attack. Two on two?, buddy adjacent to target, sneak attack. two on one? Maybe take a swipe, Disengage.



But I am really disappointed in you lot. So far in, and nobody has suggested taking Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) for mage hand, friends, and Jump?
He's got the lightsaber right there. He just needs that extra push, and his training will be complete...

[Arkhios]

This is a very roundabout way of retracting your claim and agreeing with me.

Oh my god... Do you seriously have a beef on my OPINION contradicting yours? It was an opinion for christs sake. Get over it! I didn't want to argue about it so I tried to "make amends", but clearly you just couldn't let it go.

Your opinion isn't more valuable than mine.

[Mirakk]

This is a very roundabout way of retracting your claim and agreeing with me.

You know you can make observations about things without being rude about it? It's not a competition. He's trying to help.