What has the highest Natural Armor?

[Lukalaly]

Title says it all. I'd prefer stuff with around 50 HD, but anything works really. Trying to see how high of an AC I can get in wild shape.
On the subject of wild shape, what classes have it? Other than Master of Many Forms, Warshaper, Druid, and the WS Ranger variant. If that's all, then if any of you know of some balanced homebrew that has it, then that would be cool too.

[John Longarrow]

What type(s) of creatures are you looking at?

[Lukalaly]

What type(s) of creatures are you looking at?

That would probably help. I have all ten levels in MoMF, so I can go for: Animals, Vermin, Humanoid, Fey, Monstrous Humanoid, Ooze, Giant, Aberration, Plant, Elemental, and Dragon (what I'm mostly looking for, but I know most of those. At least the ones in core, draconomicon, and the epic ones)

[ben-zayb]

Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon has +77 natural armor, although that may be a bit high in HD.

[barakaka]

From what I've heard of epic levels, there isn't really a whole lot of balance if you guys have access to epic spells. Any homebrew is probably only as broken as what the designers already wrote.

[Buufreak]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but warshaper doesn't grant nor progress WS.

[John Longarrow]

From a quick check you should have a few choices...
Shivhad from Frostburn has +26 as a Gargantuan Aberration
Mountain Giant from MM II +29
Great Wyrm gold dragon runs +40

Dragons win, but that's kinda to be expected.

[DirePorkChop]

Devastation Beetle, From ELH, is pretty solid. It's 3.0, but was never reprinted.

[Lukalaly]

Sorry I didn't mention this before, but colossal things are off the table, as wild shape never goes that high. Unless I can convince my DM to let me at some point, then gargantuan is the highest I can get to.

[Ezekiul]

Sorry I didn't mention this before, but colossal things are off the table, as wild shape never goes that high. Unless I can convince my DM to let me at some point, then gargantuan is the highest I can get to.

There's an epic feat for colossal wild shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#colossalWildShape) with the prereque being able to wild shape into gargantuan creature (another feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#gargantuanWildShape))

With wildshape you can only change into a creature with as many HD as your equivalent wildshape level you'll get 9-18 epic feats on your way to 50 HD.

You have these options for class or abilities with wildshape:

Druid 50 (gain an additional epic feat every 4 levels above 20)
Master of Many Forms 10 (which you have)
Nature's Warrior 5
Arcane Hierophant 10 (requires some arcane casting)
Planar Shepard 10 (grants wildshapes into magical beasts and outsiders of the plane you select)
Amulet of Wildshape (+4 bonus)
Vestments of the Beast (+1 set bonus for wearing the Armor, Cloak, and Ring slot at the same time)

[MisterKaws]

Devastation Beetle, From ELH, is pretty solid. It's 3.0, but was never reprinted.

It was updated to 3.5 in the update booklet.

[Lukalaly]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but warshaper doesn't grant nor progress WS.


There's an epic feat for colossal wild shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#colossalWildShape) with the prereque being able to wild shape into gargantuan creature (another feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#gargantuanWildShape))

With wildshape you can only change into a creature with as many HD as your equivalent wildshape level you'll get 9-18 epic feats on your way to 50 HD.

Again with the problem of me not mentioning things. I'm not in epic levels, I'm just gestalt. WS Ranger 15//MoMF 10/ Warshaper 5 (which my DM said I could get wild shape advancement from as well). And divine minion, which my DM said would stack with everything else (the part where I can wild shape as an 11th level druid. Basically, I get 11 extra max HD), which brings my max up to 41 HD. So unfortunately, epic level feats/spells are off the table (trust me, I asked him already and he said no. :smallfrown:) Also, the reason I went WS ranger instead of druid is because WS Ranger gives me full BAB and two good saves. It also lets me do mystic ranger, which I'm not sure about quite yet.
I'm also getting amulet of wild shape and the magic item set that gives me bonus max HD, so that would bring me up to 46 I think.

[Deophaun]

Again with the problem of me not mentioning things. I'm not in epic levels, I'm just gestalt. WS Ranger 15//MoMF 10/ Warshaper 5 (which my DM said I could get wild shape advancement from as well). And divine minion, which my DM said would stack with everything else (the part where I can wild shape as an 11th level druid. Basically, I get 11 extra max HD), which brings my max up to 41 HD.
26 HD. If it's 41, you're in houserule territory (well, you're in double HR territory with Warshaper advancing), so you might as well ask the DM to create an arbitrarily high NA monster for you.

There's also the question of how you are qualifying for either MoMF or Warshaper at level 1, instead of level 5. Triple HR? And the DM actually allowed divine minion.

[Lukalaly]

There's also the question of how you are qualifying for either MoMF or Warshaper at level 1, instead of level 5. Triple HR? And the DM actually allowed divine minion.

I qualify for MoMF at level one because the only prerequisites are endurance and alertness (and wild shape, but that's for later), both of which I take at level one. As for the wild shape portion, divine minion let's me wild shape as an 11th level druid, which only get's wild shape as a class feature. Minor shakiness in rule reading, I know, but my DM was actually the one who suggested it to me, so it's more than likely okay.

[Deophaun]

I qualify for MoMF at level one because the only prerequisites are endurance and alertness (and wild shape, but that's for later), both of which I take at level one. As for the wild shape portion, divine minion let's me wild shape as an 11th level druid, which only get's wild shape as a class feature. Minor shakiness in rule reading, I know, but my DM was actually the one who suggested it to me, so it's more than likely okay.
Your DM has basically broken the game for you, though. The confusing thing is asking about balanced homebrew after the fact.

I think the question is: what are you facing that you feel the need to turn into a 41 HD creature to counter it? Natural Armor isn't even that good unless you have scintillating scales or something to turn it into a deflection bonus. What's your purpose for that NA?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Let me ask a very serious question:

Why are you bothering with Natural Armor anyway? It won't help against touch attacks, which are going to be your real threat, so it's kind of the cheap toy in the crackerjack box. If you are wanting to focus on defense, I'd suggest tossing in other ways of increasing your AC, including touch attack, and generating miss chance.

Without knowing what your character is built like, I don't know which tactic is going to be most effective for you, but here are some ideas:

* If you have a high WIS, you can use a Monk's Belt to get your Wis bonus to AC on regular and touch attacks
* Cloak of Displacement, Lesser. Flat always-on 20% miss chance. Do not pass go, do not hit me.
* Getting a method of using HiPS and a way to Sneak around at normal speed would be a great way to not get hit. Unless your opponent has See Invisibility or some other means of defeating Invisibility, you've got a 50% miss chance right there.
* ToB has ways of generating misses based on skill checks, particularly Setting Sun. Baffling Defense, in particular, lets you replace your AC with a Sense Motive check for any attack. It does not specify a melee attack and it does not exclude touch attacks. This discipline has other useful things along this vein which are worth a dip to obtain.
* Moving as an interrupt-action can deny an attacking opponent any of his actual attacks as you are no longer there when he tries to hit you.

Any combination of these ideas will significantly improve your survivability across a much broader range of threats than simply pumping NA. Typically a Wildshape Ranger/MoMF/Warshaper build focuses on offense, including extending your range for your natural attacks and getting stupid bonuses to attack and damage, such as one of a couple of variants of the King of Smack build.

[Lukalaly]

Your DM has basically broken the game for you, though. The confusing thing is asking about balanced homebrew after the fact.

I think the question is: what are you facing that you feel the need to turn into a 41 HD creature to counter it? Natural Armor isn't even that good unless you have scintillating scales or something to turn it into a deflection bonus. What's your purpose for that NA?

Yeah, that's true. While I don't really think that I'm balanced, my DM does, which is why I'm afraid that I'll need something so strong to counter whatever he's gonna throw at me. As for the NA, a decent amount of my group says that high AC normally needs to be traded for actual damage. I want to prove them (very) wrong. (Seeing as how I could fairly easily get 30ish AC and still have massive damage) As for deflection bonus, what's the point of assume supernatural ability if not for getting "them mad bonuses, son?"
And about the homebrew, my DM says that he won't let me use any homebrew that he think isn't balanced...although as you can see his idea of "balance" is a bit skewed.

[Deophaun]

* Getting a method of using HiPS and a way to Sneak around at normal speed would be a great way to not get hit. Unless your opponent has See Invisibility...
See invisibility does not work against HiPS:

It does not reveal creatures who are simply hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see.
True seeing or see in darkness may be an issue, however, as those will likely negate your most readily available sources of concealment, preventing you from hiding from that creature.


Seeing as how I could fairly easily get 30ish AC and still have massive damage
30ish AC is not great at level 15. Consider that with just +5 light armor and a shield, you're at 25 AC or more before accounting for Dex, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, or other abilities. 30-39 is kind of the default at that level.


As for deflection bonus, what's the point of assume supernatural ability if not for getting "them mad bonuses, son?"
That's exactly why you shouldn't worry about NA: worry about all the other cool things you could be getting instead. If I have to choose between a form that gives me +100 Natural Armor and.... a grell. I'm choosing the grell.

[Lukalaly]

Let me ask a very serious question:

Why are you bothering with Natural Armor anyway? It won't help against touch attacks, which are going to be your real threat, so it's kind of the cheap toy in the crackerjack box. If you are wanting to focus on defense, I'd suggest tossing in other ways of increasing your AC, including touch attack, and generating miss chance.

Without knowing what your character is built like, I don't know which tactic is going to be most effective for you, but here are some ideas:

* If you have a high WIS, you can use a Monk's Belt to get your Wis bonus to AC on regular and touch attacks
* Cloak of Displacement, Lesser. Flat always-on 20% miss chance. Do not pass go, do not hit me.
* Getting a method of using HiPS and a way to Sneak around at normal speed would be a great way to not get hit. Unless your opponent has See Invisibility or some other means of defeating Invisibility, you've got a 50% miss chance right there.
* ToB has ways of generating misses based on skill checks, particularly Setting Sun. Baffling Defense, in particular, lets you replace your AC with a Sense Motive check for any attack. It does not specify a melee attack and it does not exclude touch attacks. This discipline has other useful things along this vein which are worth a dip to obtain.
* Moving as an interrupt-action can deny an attacking opponent any of his actual attacks as you are no longer there when he tries to hit you.

Any combination of these ideas will significantly improve your survivability across a much broader range of threats than simply pumping NA. Typically a Wildshape Ranger/MoMF/Warshaper build focuses on offense, including extending your range for your natural attacks and getting stupid bonuses to attack and damage, such as one of a couple of variants of the King of Smack build.
As for NA, I honestly just like high AC. NA is just an easy way to get it, although it is very easily stripped away.
I am definitely going to have good offense, but as I said, I like AC. I'll take your advice, as it is really good (specifically baffling defense, that sounds awesome), and I've never really done much high level stuff, so I'm a bit new to all this. Probably gonna focus more on high damage from here on, but I'll keep this in mind for later. Because of that, I don't really need to know what has super high AC. Although, as a DM myself, I do kinda want to know what I could throw at my PCs in the future....nah, I don't need that. Thanks for all the help everyone!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As for NA, I honestly just like high AC. NA is just an easy way to get it, although it is very easily stripped away.
I am definitely going to have good offense, but as I said, I like AC. I'll take your advice, as it is really good (specifically baffling defense, that sounds awesome), and I've never really done much high level stuff, so I'm a bit new to all this. Probably gonna focus more on high damage from here on, but I'll keep this in mind for later. Because of that, I don't really need to know what has super high AC. Although, as a DM myself, I do kinda want to know what I could throw at my PCs in the future....nah, I don't need that. Thanks for all the help everyone!

You can get quite a bit of bang for your buck with Tome of Battle and a small dip in Swordsage. Since you are going Gestalt, the 3/4 BAB isn't going to kill you. In particular, you may wish to look up Setting Sun and Tiger Claw, with maybe some Shadow Blade and Diamond Mind thrown in. If you aren't feat-starved, you can pick up some useful feats as well. Stone Fist is more about DR than about AC, I don't know if you want to try to go down that road. But it sounds like you are looking at a swift striker which is able to pretty much blow off attacks, so that's Setting Sun for the counters, Tiger Claw and Shadow Blade for the swift and the striking. Heck, there's a first level stance from Shadow Blade that gives you 20% concealment when you move, and a feat that gives you +2d6 sneak attack while in said stance, which boosts both offense and defense.

However, that's going to start cutting into your main shtick of shapeshifting in very short order unless you expend resources to bring it back up. Ultimately, it's your character, so it's your call, but in my experience, a sprinkling of ToB has never been bad for a melee build.