Optimize this Feat #16: Bloodspiked Charger from PHB2

[daremetoidareyo]

I Love Feats. They are little alterations to the rules and they interface with class features in some really fun and strange ways. Sometimes their utility is circumspect and sometimes they just stink. I'm looking at you Battle Dance. However, there is just something really satisfying about the interplay of feats and rules to produce illogical and unintended effects.

What is this?
So this is the "Optimize this feat" discussion, wherein we work together to plumb the clever and amazing uses for feats in ways the designers could have only dreamt of. Arbitrary credit seems to be important to sway people's incentives, so I have devised the following system to award credit to people who help explore the possibilities of how to use a feat. I'm developing this pseudo-contest on the fly, so rules are subject to change.


All participants in the optimization endeavor post directly into the thread. They may post as many times as they want, just like any thread where you volunteer your ideas. After a week or so, the thread will be evaluated and participants will be assigned a score. That score represents how helpful or novel the poster was in their analysis of a feat's uses, abuses, interactions, and limitations. The rubric by which points are assigned to posters is developed below. The poster's who are most helpful will be announced after a week, and have their name highlighted in bold and in a font color other than black! The guest judge will try to remain interactive in the process, because the contest element to me is secondary to extracting the maximum amount of versatility and power out of the feat resource.

Point Allocation Rubric
The following list is not exhaustive of how points will be allocated, as I imagine that there will be weird end cases.

Suggestion of a non-overtly obvious class feature, spell, feat, skill trick, psi-power, magic/psionic item, or monster that interplays with the feat to produce an exaggerated result.

Overt Obviousness will be judged by me, but I will generally allocate points generously, What I am trying to avoid is people suggesting feat interplays that are non-exceptional and thus cluttering the thread with lame and uninteresting things. 1 pt

If the suggestion is particularly powerful or clever, an additional point may be allocated to reward the optimizerly thinking. This decision is mine, although I will be swayed by what seems like genuine "co-signing," where other posters in the thread really glom onto the idea and develop it further.

A small build stub, between 5-12 levels, that includes a small write up of how the feat interplays with a few class features, racial features, spells, powers and feats to produce an effect that is far beyond the scope of what the feat of the week is capable of providing on its own. 5 points. +/- 1 point.

A rather undeveloped stub may only receive 4 points if it is a slightly modified rehash of a previous stub. A rather ingenious stub can earn an extra point. In some cases, you may actually do both! All of these are judgement calls as adjudicated by myself.

A fully functional optimization of the feat that ramps it up to its maximum power level where there is no way to possibly make it more amazing, including a 20 level build that follows the same format as iron chef dishes, but with minimal write up, is worthy of 10-12 points.

As the Chair, I will remain interactive throughout the thread, even suggesting a few builds. Commenting on these is fine and all of the rubric points apply to those as well. This means that the thread is not a totally objective competition.

A display of relevant rules expertise that shapes the discussion is worthy of 0 or 1 point. This is the "squishiest" criteria, and will only be allocated when it corrects part of the conversation that is going too far off the rails. Particularly nasty interchanges about RAW may lead to abdication of this point. Being incorrect isn't an immoral offense, so I want an atmosphere where suggestions are flying but staying generally within the real bounds of dnd play. RAW discussions tend to get a little too personal, and hopefully this arbitrary point system can circumvent that. Plus, seeing as how extensive the rules system is, it is easy for me to get excited about how to make an idea work and get lost about the details.

BIAS
I am not a perfect judge. I prefer mundane to magical. I prefer Tier 3 and below to Tier 2 and up. But I do love me some dysfunction. So optimization that requires a lot of high level spells or powers (anything level 4 or up) will be less impressive to me. Go ahead and make your suggestion, I will try to police these biases in myself, but understand that these are factors that are in play.

Other information
All of that said, I have an exhibited tendency to be more forgiving/rules lax, whereas some of you are far more RAW heavy. I really do appreciate ya'll, so don't be afraid to reign in some of the theory and ground it in what is explicitly allowed. Different tables play the game differently. And this forum tends to highlight super polarized ends of this permissiveness spectrum that spans from "RAW to a fault" - "So ridiculously theoretically unbalanced beyond any DM's willingness to allow". Most play tends to be in the middle, if not a little skewed towards RAW: but not all play. With that in mind, if requested, if you are asked to assume that the theoretical DM handwaves your criticism as a special exception, please update your approach and proceed from there if you would like to continue to parse the possibilities that a feat offers. In this way, we can develop the full spectrum of what a feat can do.

This week's Feat is Bloodspiked Charger from PHB2 p.92


This endeavor concludes at 11:59PM Eastern Standard Time on November 16th, 2016 Extended to December 20th ~midnight.

Optimize this Feat 1:Wanderer's Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472308-Optimize-This-Feat-1-Wanderer-s-Diplomacy): VAZ
Optimize this Feat 2: Conductivity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473047-Optimize-this-Feat-2-Conductivity-from-Unearthed-Arcana&highlight=Conductivity): ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 3: Swim-by Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474225-Optimize-this-feat-3-Swim-by-attack-from-Stormwrack): WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476019-Optimize-this-Feat-4-Contagious-Paralysis-from-Libris-Mortis) WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 5: Hammer and Piton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477681-Optimize-this-Feat-5-Hammer-and-Piton-From-Dungeonscape) Zetapup
Optimize this Feat 6: Residual Rebound (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479041-Optimize-this-Feat-6-Residual-Rebound-from-Unearthed-Arcana&p=20493024#post20493024) ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 7: Mark of Phlegethos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480323-Optimize-this-Feat-7-Mark-of-Phlegethos-from-Fiendish-Codex-2-Tot9H): Darrin
Optimize this Feat 8: Seelie Court Noble Kelir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492298-Optimize-this-Feat-8-Seelie-Court-Noble-Kelir-(web)): Jowgen
Optimize this Feat 9: Animal Friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493792-Optimize-this-Feat-9-Races-of-Faerun-s-Animal-friends-p-161): Troacctid
Optimize this Feat 10A: Primary Contact (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round&p=21075488#post21075488): Jormengand & WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 10B lightning round: Einhander from PHB2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round): Zaq

Optimize this Feat 11: Supremely Confident from Dragon #335 p.88 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496731-Optimize-this-feat-11-Supremely-Confident-from-Dragon-335-p-88&p=21076906): To Be Determined
Optimize this Feat 12: Spirit Sense (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498138-Optimize-this-feat-12-Spirit-Sense-from-Heroes-of-Horror-p-124) from Heroes of Horror p.124: Jormengand
Optimize this Feat #13: Cards Over Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501738-Optimize-this-Feat-13-Cards-over-Swords-from-Three-Dragon-Ante-web-supplement&p=21301495#post21301495) from the Three Dragon Ante Web: Darrin & Morcleon
Optimize this Feat #14: Dual Planes Summons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503445-Optimize-this-Feat-14-Dual-Plane-Summons-from-Dragon-313) from Dragon Magazine #313: To Be Determined
Optimize this Feat #15: Formation Expert (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505193-Optimize-This-Feat-15-Formation-Expert-from-Complete-Warrior-p-110) from Complete Warrior: Darrin

Upcoming Schedule:

Don't post your ideas for these on the wrong competition. Save em. Unleash your brilliance on us.
Optimize this feat #17: Betrayal of the spirit linked from Dragon #336 with guest judge _____????
Optimize this feat #18: Truebond from DMG2
Optimize this feat #19: Eldritch Corruption from Heroes of Horror p. 122
Optimize this feat #20: Imbued Healing (Complete Champion p.60)
Optimize this feat #21: Create spectral spawn from Dragons of Faerun Web Supplement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070425a) p.6

[daremetoidareyo]

The feat Text is below


Blood-Spiked Charger

Fighter Bonus Feat, Tactical

You throw yourself into the fray, using your spiked armor and spiked shield to tear your opponents to pieces.
Prerequisite: BAB +6, STR 13, Proficiency with spiked armor and spiked shields, Power Attack (PH), Weapon Focus (PH) (spiked armor), Weapon Focus (PH) (spiked shield)

Benefit: The Blood-Spiked Charger feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.

Spiked Avalanche: When you are using the charge action while wearing spiked armor and carrying either a spiked shield or nothing in your hands, you throw yourself into the air, transforming yourself into a deadly, spiked projectile. A successful attack with either your spiked shield or your spiked armor deals extra damage equal to twice your Strength bonus. You can attack with both your spiked armor and a spiked shield on this charge, each one benefiting from the Strength bonus, but you take the normal penalties for using two weapons.

Spiked Rebuke: When you are fighting defensively and carrying a spiked shield, you lash out at your foes with your shield in response to their attacks. Determine what your AC would be without your spiked shield and the AC bonus for fighting defensively. If an opponent's attack hits against this lower AC but misses against your actual AC, the foe strikes your shield, allowing you to deflect his attack in such a way as to leave him vulnerable to your counter. On your next action, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls against your chosen foe with your spiked shield.

Spiked Slam: As a full-round action when you are wielding a spiked shield, you can opt to make only a single attack at your best base attack bonus. You brace yourself behind your spiked shield, drive yourself forward, and slam into your foe. You enter your foe's space, which provokes attacks of opportunity. In return, your attack deals extra damage equal to twice your Strength and an additional amount based on your size (see below). After making this attack, you stumble back into the square you occupied just before making this attack. Until the start of your next turn, you do not threaten any squares.

Size: Additional Damage.
Small: 1d4.
Medium: 1d6.
Large: 1d8.
Huge: 2d6.
Gargantuan: 2d8.
Colossal: 3d6.

Special: A fighter can select Blood-Spiked Charger as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Ok, some optimization approaches could include:

Spiked avalanche has this little tidbit: "you throw yourself into the air, transforming yourself into a deadly, spiked projectile."...how would you optimize yourself as a "projectile"

Best way to get to gargantuan size on a combat build?

How to best optimize that strength score?

Any way to optimize attacks of the category "slam"?

[WhamBamSam]

Isn't Bloodspiked Charger actually semi-popular?

Anyway, Psychic Warrior seems largely to be the way to go here. It's feat and in particular Fighter Feat heavy, like the intended Fighter build, can pump its Str up in a number of ways (Strength of My Enemy, Expansion, Psychofeedback if you really feel like going all out), and has Expansion as well as Psionic Lion's Charge to use in conjunction with Spiked Avalanche. Dissolving Weapon might also combine well with the single attack from Spiked Slam.

Kalashtar as a race would allow you to mix Spiked Rebuke with various tricks from the Dancing With Shadows feat (Races of Eberron), which could be sort of cool. Kalashtar is also a generally good PsyWar race thanks to the bonus PP, though your expanded size would cap out at Huge.

If you can make your Spiked Shield an Exotic Weapon (it's piercing, so it can be made from Kaorti Resin, off the top of my head), then a dip in Exotic Weapon Master would give you 2x your Str bonus when wielding it two-handed instead of the normal 1.5. That would get you 4*Str on a Spiked Avalanche charge or Spiked Slam. It's a feat and a level for what really just ends up being a little more damage per hit though, so meh.

If you want to get to Gargantuan, my first thought would be expansion from a large base race, like Half-Ogre or Anthro-Whale. Anthro-Whale 3/PsyWar 2 is a perfectly acceptable War Mind entry, though Spiked Slam might take away your ability to threaten squares before you make your attack, which would prevent it from working in conjunction with Sweeping Strike. My second thought is polymorphing, as there's the Ibrandlin in Monsters of Faerun, which gets you to Gargantuan for the bargain price of 10 HD, though that's sort of overkill.

You could mitigate the drawback of not threatening after a Spiked Slam with the Ghostly Tail spell (Races of the Dragon), which hits any enemy who "takes an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity from you, even if you are not holding a melee weapon that would normally threaten your foe." A Kobold or Changeling with Racial Emulation can get it as a SLA via the Draconic Rite of Passage, and it's hours/level, so barring a dispelling, you only need one casting. Changeling is the natural choice, as Racial Emulation opens up other options (like the Kalashtar feat I mentioned above), and it makes the character significantly bigger and stronger (thanks to Warshaper, they're a +4 Str race). A good non-psionic build might be Changeling Pouncebarian/Fighter going into Warshaper.

Combat Brute's Momentum Swing seems to fit nicely with the playstyle that Bloodspiked Charger encourages.

[Zaq]

I've always thought that this feat has cool fluff, but as you might imagine, I've never found a way to really use it.

Spiked Rebuke is something we can pretty safely ignore. A conditional +2 with a specific weapon isn't really something we can optimize, and even though the bonus is typeless, the "same source" rule would prevent us from stacking it with itself.

Spiked Slam is, at least, a new combat option. It is a poor combat option, but it is a combat option.

I think Spiked Avalanche is the option with the most potential. It does a flat amount of extra damage, so if we can get multipliers involved, we might be in business. Off the top of my head, Spirited Charge is a relatively easy way to just flat out double damage on a charge. The tricky part is that Spirited Charge is best with a lance, while Spiked Avalanche requires that we carry "either a spiked shield or nothing in [our] hands." So we need to use our lance without using our hands. A mouthpick lance might work. Also, it keys off of using "the charge action," so unlike Spiked Slam, it does play nicely with other charge-related options. I'm not sure if ToB maneuvers like Battle Leader's Charge count as "the charge action" (they're unambiguously charge attacks, but I'm not sure if they involve the charge action), but if nothing else, I see no reason why Pounce wouldn't let us apply the Spiked Avalanche bonus damage on every swing.

Hmm. Spiked Slam explicitly has us temporarily enter our foe's space. Is there anything we can do to optimize the brief period of time that we're in their space? We spent a full-round action on this, so it basically needs to be a free action, a swift action, or a continuous effect, but I feel like that still gives us a weird opening that we don't normally get. The numerical portion of the maneuver is pretty weaksauce, after all, so optimizing it is going to be a matter of taking the weird parts and exploiting the opportunities therein.

Is it ever disadvantageous to threaten squares? I can't think of any abilities that penalize you for doing so, but if we can find any, Spiked Slam would give us some control over that.

Other weird things with Spiked Slam—the attack doesn't have to be a melee attack. If we can make our spiked shield into a ranged weapon (Throw Anything, Throwing enchantment, Bloodstorm Blade, etc.), we can attack someone at range, enter their space, and then "stumble back" to our original space. That has potential, doesn't it? It's weird motion, but it's semi-free motion, and if we can get our range increment up to really stupid levels, we might be able to move way farther than we normally could with just a move action (both by entering a faraway space and by stumbling back to our original space). That's another "hmm, we can't do this normally" opportunity. What can we do with that? Are there any swift-action or continuous abilities that let you cause some kind of lingering effect on squares that you enter/pass through? Are there any interesting abilities that function based off of how far you move in a round that don't have action costs incompatible with the full-round action we need to take? (Tornado Throw is all well and good, but we need action economy nonsense to make it play nice in this case.)

[Bucky]

Re: Ranged Spiked Slam
The obvious synergy with the free movement is Skirmish

....

Is there some way to get a Grab special on a spiked shield, so we can abduct our target?

[Zaq]

Re: Ranged Spiked Slam
The obvious synergy with the free movement is Skirmish

....

Is there some way to get a Grab special on a spiked shield, so we can abduct our target?

There's the Wrapping shield enhancement (Arms and Equipment Guide, pg. 93), but that requires a "shield bash attack," and I'm not sure if the Spiked Slam attack is technically a shield bash attack.

[Jormengand]

It is, of course, my sacred duty to nitpick the feat's wording mercilessly. As you pointed out, projectile is useful. Far shot increases your own range increment by half, but that's not actually helpful unless you intend to attack with yourself as a ranged weapon (in which case you'd be better off throwing yourself).

However this line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponCategories) is helpful:

These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon’s use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon’s usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).

Let's see how we can mess with that:

Your ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. In addition, when you shoot or throw ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot)
You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#pointBlankShot)
You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#rapidShot)
When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#shotOnTheRun)
You may throw or fire a ranged weapon at any target within line of sight, with no penalty for range. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot)
Your ranged attacks ignore the miss chance granted to targets by total concealment. You must aim your attacks at the correct square to take advantage of this feat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#uncannyAccuracy)

Add lion's charge, psionic lion's charge, or dire charge to taste, and enjoy charging any creature you can target, hitting them even if they're invisible, and unleashing a full attack, with an extra attack strapped on the end, and a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls.



As far as doing something while in the enemy space is concerned, Temporal Twist can turn our swift action into an attack of some sort, which means that all the ToB maneuvers with a casting manifesting invoking uttering initiating time of one melee attack suddenly work. Alternatively, a grapple is an attack, and so is freaking hammer and piton, which is on record as the most hilarious feat, so we can "Stumble back" into our square and take them with us.

[Zaq]

As far as doing something while in the enemy space is concerned, Temporal Twist can turn our swift action into an attack of some sort, which means that all the ToB maneuvers with a casting manifesting invoking uttering initiating time of one melee attack suddenly work. Alternatively, a grapple is an attack, and so is freaking hammer and piton, which is on record as the most hilarious feat, so we can "Stumble back" into our square and take them with us.

I agree that Temporal Twist is a good way of getting an attack as a swift action (assuming that you can afford the build resources, of course), but I disagree that it works well with ToB maneuvers. I just looked all the way through ToB, and there aren't any maneuvers with an initiating time of "one attack action." I think they all require a standard action or a full-round action or a swift/immediate action (or, in two very rare cases, a move action), never an attack action.

The grapple idea is interesting. Or we can combine that with the Wrapping shield enhancement I mentioned to get an unambiguous shield bash attack in the middle, thereby triggering Wrapping and beginning some really weird stuff. Or we can try to invoke Knockback to see if we can get the enemy into our original space, thereby causing a crazy pile-up for when we "stumble back."

[WhamBamSam]

A Dragonwrought Kobold could potentially get Distant Shot at high levels, so we can pretty much arbitrarily extend how far we move with our ranged spike slam if we really want to. Kobolds aren't the greatest things for a Str based feat though.

The movement provokes AoOs, so maybe we could work with a build that wants to provoke a lot?

My first thought would be Feigned Opening,but you may not be able to actually take your AoO if they miss if you lose your ability to threaten during the Spiked Slam, and even Ghostly Tail probably won't help, as your opponent's AoO is a non-action.

Elusive Target's Cause Overreach is probably a better option, and less ambiguous as you don't need to threaten to trip. Dodge and Mobility are prereqs, and we can use the free movement to set up Expiditous Dodge, so that's a +6 to AC before anything else, meaning we can give ourselves a good chance of making things miss and tripping them.

[Sayt]

Does 3.5 have anything like Pathfinder's shield slam feat, that let's you tack a bullrush check onto a shield bash?

Because if so, a valorous spiked shield and dungeoncrasher could be cute combined with bloodspiked chrager.

[Jormengand]

I agree that Temporal Twist is a good way of getting an attack as a swift action (assuming that you can afford the build resources, of course), but I disagree that it works well with ToB maneuvers. I just looked all the way through ToB, and there aren't any maneuvers with an initiating time of "one attack action." I think they all require a standard action or a full-round action or a swift/immediate action (or, in two very rare cases, a move action), never an attack action.

The grapple idea is interesting. Or we can combine that with the Wrapping shield enhancement I mentioned to get an unambiguous shield bash attack in the middle, thereby triggering Wrapping and beginning some really weird stuff. Or we can try to invoke Knockback to see if we can get the enemy into our original space, thereby causing a crazy pile-up for when we "stumble back."

I though there were some which allowed you to make them as a melee attack, but I don't know Tome of Magic: Swords Edition that well, so YMMV.

[daremetoidareyo]

Any ideas about making the ballisteer (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030426b) work ?

[WhamBamSam]

Any ideas about making the ballisteer (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030426b) work ?I don't think it will, at least not in the context of this discussion. Spiked Avalanche, even at our most RAW-wanky, turns you into a projectile, not into ammunition, so we can't use it there, and nor are you yourself the projectile for our weird ranged Spiked Slams, which are thrown shield attacks that just take you along for the ride.

I'm also coming to realize just how limiting Spiked Slam is if it makes you not threaten during the course of the action. My Elusive Target trick won't even let you make the Improved Trip attack after tripping them in that case.

[The Random NPC]

If there's a weapon or armor enchantment that sends your shield to a different plane, you could use Spiked Slam and Wrapping to drag people on your plane. Just think how awesome it would be to grab a ghost and drag him on to the Material plane.

[Muggins]

Depending on how you read the Engulf ability, the Spiked Slam feature might be pretty decent for a gelatinous cube with spiked armour (barding?). For one, it lets us move into an opponents space, which might trigger Engulf; for two, Paralysis seems to trigger on any melee attack, which would include a Spiked Slam.

I can't think of anything more frightening than a spiked ooze, can you?

[daremetoidareyo]

I'll finish wrapping up this contest Tonight on Dec 20th. Until then, feel free to make suggestions as if the contest is still open!

After that, I will open up and post optimize this feat #17: Betrayal of the Spirit Linked from dragon #336.

I think you can use yourself as the projectile weapon and thus use this feat in conjunction with penetrating shot: You literally run right through people!

Penultimately: We are having an open call for suggested feats to add to the schedule.

Lastly, So far, contests last about 4 days before the thread gets buried. I think a week and a few extra days is fair turn-around time for the contest. Any suggestions about how long the thread should be allowed to run before judging?

[Darrin]

Blood-Spiked Charger allows you to attack with two weapons when using "Spiked Avalanche". It says you take the "normal penalties for using two weapons". So presumably we want to take TWF to reduce those penalties to -2/-2... but why stop there? Improved TWF and Greater TWF gives us additional offhand attacks. This allows us to skip Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.

There are two ways to add armor spikes as natural weapons: Spiker race (Planar Handbook) and Osteomancer 3 (Dragon Compendium). While this is functionally the same as just putting armor spikes on your armor, there is one notable difference: as natural weapons, you can add Power Attack damage. So let's get a heavy spiked shield (gripped two-handed) and see what we can do with a somewhat typical Ubercharger build:

Race: Spiker.
1) Fighter 1. Feat: WF (Armor Spikes), Bonus: Power Attack, Flaw: TWF, Flaw: Travel Devotion.
2) Fighter 2. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush.
3) Fighter 3. Feat: WF (Spiked Shield).
4) Fighter 4. Bonus: WS (Armor Spikes).
5) Fighter 5.
6) Fighter 6. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Blood-Spiked Charger.
7) Fighter 7.
8) Fighter 8. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
9) Fighter 9. Feat: Improved Natural Attack.
10) Fighter 10. Bonus: WS (Spiked Shield).
11) Fighter 11.
12) Fighter 12. Feat: Improved TWF, Bonus: Greater TWF.
13) Fighter 13.
14) Fighter 14. Bonus: Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing).
15) Fighter 15. Feat: GWF (Armor Spikes).
16) Fighter 16. Bonus: GWF (Spiked Shield).
17) Fighter 17.
18) Fighter 18. Feat: GWS (Armor Spikes), GWS (Spiked Shield).
19) Feat Rogue 1. Weapon Supremacy (Armor Spikes).
20) Feat Rogue 2. Weapon Supremacy (Spiked Shield).

We can also worship an Elder Evil (Father Llymic) to gain some Vile feats. Since our armor spikes + Improved Natural attack do 1d8 damage, we can pick up: Vile Martial Strike: Spiked Shield (1st), Vile Martial Strike: Armor Spikes (5th), Vile Natural Attack: Armor Spikes (10th), Insane Defiance (15th), Harvester of Souls (20th).

But we're still missing some feats... notably Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge, and Shield Slam. For those, we can Dark Chaos Shuffle some of those Vile feats, or some of our other bonus feats: Tower Shield Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, and Martial Weapon Proficiency: Armor Spikes (racial feat, but it's redundant with Fighter proficiencies).

[The Random NPC]

You can only take Weapon Supremacy once.

[Darrin]

You can only take Weapon Supremacy once.

Huh. I hadn't noticed that before. Thanks for catching that. Given its prereqs, though... I'm not sure why they bothered to put that limitation in there. Well... I guess that makes some room for ISB/Shield Charge/Shield Slam.

[daremetoidareyo]

Isn't Bloodspiked Charger actually semi-popular?

Popularity isn't necessarily a criteria.


Anyway, Psychic Warrior seems largely to be the way to go here. It's feat and in particular Fighter Feat heavy, like the intended Fighter build, can pump its Str up in a number of ways (Strength of My Enemy, Expansion, Psychofeedback if you really feel like going all out), and has Expansion as well as Psionic Lion's Charge to use in conjunction with Spiked Avalanche. Dissolving Weapon might also combine well with the single attack from Spiked Slam.

Kalashtar as a race would allow you to mix Spiked Rebuke with various tricks from the Dancing With Shadows feat (Races of Eberron), which could be sort of cool. Kalashtar is also a generally good PsyWar race thanks to the bonus PP, though your expanded size would cap out at Huge.

If you can make your Spiked Shield an Exotic Weapon (it's piercing, so it can be made from Kaorti Resin, off the top of my head), then a dip in Exotic Weapon Master would give you 2x your Str bonus when wielding it two-handed instead of the normal 1.5. That would get you 4*Str on a Spiked Avalanche charge or Spiked Slam. It's a feat and a level for what really just ends up being a little more damage per hit though, so meh.

If you want to get to Gargantuan, my first thought would be expansion from a large base race, like Half-Ogre or Anthro-Whale. Anthro-Whale 3/PsyWar 2 is a perfectly acceptable War Mind entry, though Spiked Slam might take away your ability to threaten squares before you make your attack, which would prevent it from working in conjunction with Sweeping Strike. My second thought is polymorphing, as there's the Ibrandlin in Monsters of Faerun, which gets you to Gargantuan for the bargain price of 10 HD, though that's sort of overkill.

You could mitigate the drawback of not threatening after a Spiked Slam with the Ghostly Tail spell (Races of the Dragon), which hits any enemy who "takes an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity from you, even if you are not holding a melee weapon that would normally threaten your foe." A Kobold or Changeling with Racial Emulation can get it as a SLA via the Draconic Rite of Passage, and it's hours/level, so barring a dispelling, you only need one casting. Changeling is the natural choice, as Racial Emulation opens up other options (like the Kalashtar feat I mentioned above), and it makes the character significantly bigger and stronger (thanks to Warshaper, they're a +4 Str race). A good non-psionic build might be Changeling Pouncebarian/Fighter going into Warshaper.

Combat Brute's Momentum Swing seems to fit nicely with the playstyle that Bloodspiked Charger encourages.

kalashtar psywar suggestion: 1 point
Kaorti resin spikes: 1 point + exotic weapon master +1 point
Anthro wale psywar stub: 4 points
polymorph to gargantuan: 1 point +1 point for low HD critter
Changeling pouncebarian pseudokobold: 5 points
momentum swing: 1 point


I've always thought that this feat has cool fluff, but as you might imagine, I've never found a way to really use it.

Spiked Rebuke is something we can pretty safely ignore. A conditional +2 with a specific weapon isn't really something we can optimize, and even though the bonus is typeless, the "same source" rule would prevent us from stacking it with itself.

agreed on both counts.



Spiked Slam is, at least, a new combat option. It is a poor combat option, but it is a combat option.

I think Spiked Avalanche is the option with the most potential. It does a flat amount of extra damage, so if we can get multipliers involved, we might be in business. Off the top of my head, Spirited Charge is a relatively easy way to just flat out double damage on a charge. The tricky part is that Spirited Charge is best with a lance, while Spiked Avalanche requires that we carry "either a spiked shield or nothing in [our] hands." So we need to use our lance without using our hands. A mouthpick lance might work. Also, it keys off of using "the charge action," so unlike Spiked Slam, it does play nicely with other charge-related options. I'm not sure if ToB maneuvers like Battle Leader's Charge count as "the charge action" (they're unambiguously charge attacks, but I'm not sure if they involve the charge action), but if nothing else, I see no reason why Pounce wouldn't let us apply the Spiked Avalanche bonus damage on every swing.

spirited charge + Mouthpick lance! 2 points +1 point for making me laugh
Battle leaders charge: 1 point


Hmm. Spiked Slam explicitly has us temporarily enter our foe's space. Is there anything we can do to optimize the brief period of time that we're in their space?

temporary space abuse 1 point. Actually, can you fall prone as a free action at this point, thus triggering a death centipede from the last OTF round? Is there any additional benefit to having a bonanza in the opponent's square?



We spent a full-round action on this, so it basically needs to be a free action, a swift action, or a continuous effect, but I feel like that still gives us a weird opening that we don't normally get. The numerical portion of the maneuver is pretty weaksauce, after all, so optimizing it is going to be a matter of taking the weird parts and exploiting the opportunities therein.

Is it ever disadvantageous to threaten squares? I can't think of any abilities that penalize you for doing so, but if we can find any, Spiked Slam would give us some control over that.

Other weird things with Spiked Slam—the attack doesn't have to be a melee attack. If we can make our spiked shield into a ranged weapon (Throw Anything, Throwing enchantment, Bloodstorm Blade, etc.), we can attack someone at range, enter their space, and then "stumble back" to our original space. That has potential, doesn't it? It's weird motion, but it's semi-free motion, and if we can get our range increment up to really stupid levels, we might be able to move way farther than we normally could with just a move action (both by entering a faraway space and by stumbling back to our original space). That's another "hmm, we can't do this normally" opportunity. What can we do with that? Are there any swift-action or continuous abilities that let you cause some kind of lingering effect on squares that you enter/pass through? Are there any interesting abilities that function based off of how far you move in a round that don't have action costs incompatible with the full-round action we need to take? (Tornado Throw is all well and good, but we need action economy nonsense to make it play nice in this case.)

Spiked Slam—the attack doesn't have to be a melee attack: 1 point +1 point for good eyes.
range increment boost for free movement: 1 point
And obviously, skirmish answers one of those questions.


Re: Ranged Spiked Slam
The obvious synergy with the free movement is Skirmish

....

Is there some way to get a Grab special on a spiked shield, so we can abduct our target?

skirmish + ranged spiked slam: 1 point
Grab special on a shield: 1 point
Ranged pin gives a grapple check to a piercing projectile to hold the target in place...


There's the Wrapping shield enhancement (Arms and Equipment Guide, pg. 93), but that requires a "shield bash attack," and I'm not sure if the Spiked Slam attack is technically a shield bash attack.

Fastidious. 1 point in case some crazy DM allows it.


It is, of course, my sacred duty to nitpick the feat's wording mercilessly. As you pointed out, projectile is useful. Far shot increases your own range increment by half, but that's not actually helpful unless you intend to attack with yourself as a ranged weapon (in which case you'd be better off throwing yourself).

However this line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponCategories) is helpful:


Let's see how we can mess with that:

Your ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. In addition, when you shoot or throw ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot)
You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#pointBlankShot)
You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#rapidShot)
When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#shotOnTheRun)
You may throw or fire a ranged weapon at any target within line of sight, with no penalty for range. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot)
Your ranged attacks ignore the miss chance granted to targets by total concealment. You must aim your attacks at the correct square to take advantage of this feat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#uncannyAccuracy)

Add lion's charge, psionic lion's charge, or dire charge to taste, and enjoy charging any creature you can target, hitting them even if they're invisible, and unleashing a full attack, with an extra attack strapped on the end, and a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls.

I'm going to be honest, I don't know how to score that.
6 points for 6 feats + 1 point for charge damage modifying feats



IAs far as doing something while in the enemy space is concerned, Temporal Twist can turn our swift action into an attack of some sort, which means that all the ToB maneuvers with a casting manifesting invoking uttering initiating time of one melee attack suddenly work. Alternatively, a grapple is an attack, and so is freaking hammer and piton, which is on record as the most hilarious feat, so we can "Stumble back" into our square and take them with us.

grapple has been mentioned but temporal twist is fun (but hard to put on this build!) and hammer and piton is even more fun. 0+1+2= 3 points


I agree that Temporal Twist is a good way of getting an attack as a swift action (assuming that you can afford the build resources, of course), but I disagree that it works well with ToB maneuvers. I just looked all the way through ToB, and there aren't any maneuvers with an initiating time of "one attack action." I think they all require a standard action or a full-round action or a swift/immediate action (or, in two very rare cases, a move action), never an attack action.


The grapple idea is interesting. Or we can combine that with the Wrapping shield enhancement I mentioned to get an unambiguous shield bash attack in the middle, thereby triggering Wrapping and beginning some really weird stuff. Or we can try to invoke Knockback to see if we can get the enemy into our original space, thereby causing a crazy pile-up for when we "stumble back."

2 points for looking all the way through the ToB.
Wrapping enchantment. 2 points. knockback? 1 point.


A Dragonwrought Kobold could potentially get Distant Shot at high levels, so we can pretty much arbitrarily extend how far we move with our ranged spike slam if we really want to. Kobolds aren't the greatest things for a Str based feat though.


The movement provokes AoOs, so maybe we could work with a build that wants to provoke a lot?


My first thought would be Feigned Opening,but you may not be able to actually take your AoO if they miss if you lose your ability to threaten during the Spiked Slam, and even Ghostly Tail probably won't help, as your opponent's AoO is a non-action.


Elusive Target's Cause Overreach is probably a better option, and less ambiguous as you don't need to threaten to trip. Dodge and Mobility are prereqs, and we can use the free movement to set up Expiditous Dodge, so that's a +6 to AC before anything else, meaning we can give ourselves a good chance of making things miss and tripping them.

Kobold distant shot super far movement 1 point.
expeditious dodge and elusive target: CRAZY!!! 1+1 point +1 for cleverness
While we're at it, with elusive target, doesn't improved trip give you a free attack on folks you trip?


Does 3.5 have anything like Pathfinder's shield slam feat, that let's you tack a bullrush check onto a shield bash?


Because if so, a valorous spiked shield and dungeoncrasher could be cute combined with bloodspiked chrager.

I don't know.

[daremetoidareyo]

I though there were some which allowed you to make them as a melee attack, but I don't know Tome of Magic: Swords Edition that well, so YMMV.

It would be splitting hairs, but if we are truly parsing this text this closely, it is likely to be ruled that standard action initiation time maneuvers aren't "attack actions"


I don't think it will, at least not in the context of this discussion. Spiked Avalanche, even at our most RAW-wanky, turns you into a projectile, not into ammunition, so we can't use it there, and nor are you yourself the projectile for our weird ranged Spiked Slams, which are thrown shield attacks that just take you along for the ride.

I'm also coming to realize just how limiting Spiked Slam is if it makes you not threaten during the course of the action. My Elusive Target trick won't even let you make the Improved Trip attack after tripping them in that case.

Doesn't the not threatening clause take place after the full round action has occurred, not at the onset of pulling the maneuver?


If there's a weapon or armor enchantment that sends your shield to a different plane, you could use Spiked Slam and Wrapping to drag people on your plane. Just think how awesome it would be to grab a ghost and drag him on to the Material plane.

I mean...you can cast contingency planeshift on the shield. 1 point for cleverness

Fleshgrinding is a funny enchantment to put on your shield...


Depending on how you read the Engulf ability, the Spiked Slam feature might be pretty decent for a gelatinous cube with spiked armour (barding?). For one, it lets us move into an opponents space, which might trigger Engulf; for two, Paralysis seems to trigger on any melee attack, which would include a Spiked Slam.

I can't think of anything more frightening than a spiked ooze, can you?

A spike ooze throwing a shield at you and improved tripping all of your friends on the way to engulf you.
Good thinking on engulf. 2 points.


Blood-Spiked Charger allows you to attack with two weapons when using "Spiked Avalanche". It says you take the "normal penalties for using two weapons". So presumably we want to take TWF to reduce those penalties to -2/-2... but why stop there? Improved TWF and Greater TWF gives us additional offhand attacks. This allows us to skip Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.

There are two ways to add armor spikes as natural weapons: Spiker race (Planar Handbook) and Osteomancer 3 (Dragon Compendium). While this is functionally the same as just putting armor spikes on your armor, there is one notable difference: as natural weapons, you can add Power Attack damage. So let's get a heavy spiked shield (gripped two-handed) and see what we can do with a somewhat typical Ubercharger build:

Race: Spiker.
1) Fighter 1. Feat: WF (Armor Spikes), Bonus: Power Attack, Flaw: TWF, Flaw: Travel Devotion.
2) Fighter 2. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush.
3) Fighter 3. Feat: WF (Spiked Shield).
4) Fighter 4. Bonus: WS (Armor Spikes).
5) Fighter 5.
6) Fighter 6. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Blood-Spiked Charger.
7) Fighter 7.
8) Fighter 8. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
9) Fighter 9. Feat: Improved Natural Attack.
10) Fighter 10. Bonus: WS (Spiked Shield).
11) Fighter 11.
12) Fighter 12. Feat: Improved TWF, Bonus: Greater TWF.
13) Fighter 13.
14) Fighter 14. Bonus: Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing).
15) Fighter 15. Feat: GWF (Armor Spikes).
16) Fighter 16. Bonus: GWF (Spiked Shield).
17) Fighter 17.
18) Fighter 18. Feat: GWS (Armor Spikes), GWS (Spiked Shield).
19) Feat Rogue 1. Weapon Supremacy (Armor Spikes).
20) Feat Rogue 2. Weapon Supremacy (Spiked Shield).

We can also worship an Elder Evil (Father Llymic) to gain some Vile feats. Since our armor spikes + Improved Natural attack do 1d8 damage, we can pick up: Vile Martial Strike: Spiked Shield (1st), Vile Martial Strike: Armor Spikes (5th), Vile Natural Attack: Armor Spikes (10th), Insane Defiance (15th), Harvester of Souls (20th).

But we're still missing some feats... notably Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge, and Shield Slam. For those, we can Dark Chaos Shuffle some of those Vile feats, or some of our other bonus feats: Tower Shield Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, and Martial Weapon Proficiency: Armor Spikes (racial feat, but it's redundant with Fighter proficiencies).

twf: 1 point
Spiker 1 point osteomancer 1 point power attacking with nat attacks 1 point

That's a great build. 12 points.


You can only take Weapon Supremacy once.

1 point for clarification


Huh. I hadn't noticed that before. Thanks for catching that. Given its prereqs, though... I'm not sure why they bothered to put that limitation in there. Well... I guess that makes some room for ISB/Shield Charge/Shield Slam.

Nice follow up.

[daremetoidareyo]

Ok. Time to add up the scores.

WhamBamSam: 15+4
Zaq: 8+1+5
Bucky: 2
Jormengand: 7+3
The Random NPC: 1+1
Muggins: 2
Darrin: 15

And the Haleys spiked comet of contestants is WhamBamSam. For the efforts, WBS will be seeing their name in Dark Red (the bloodiest) Palantino Linotype Font (the spikiest) with action lines running through.

WhamBamSam

Congratulations!!!

Please use the rest of the thread's time to suggest future feats!

[WhamBamSam]

Doesn't the not threatening clause take place after the full round action has occurred, not at the onset of pulling the maneuver?I wasn't sure, and didn't want to go by what might be an overly permissive reading. If it doesn't take away your ability to threaten until after the action, then that simplifies optimizing Spiked Slam considerably.

[Darrin]

To continue my tradition of posting a build after the contest has closed... an update on the "Spikey McSpikeface" build.

Race: Spiker.
1) Feat Rogue 1. Feat: Travel Devotion, Bonus: Power Attack, Flaw: TWF, Flaw: IBR.
2) Fighter 1. Bonus: WF (Spiked Shield)
3) Fighter 2. Feat: Improved Shield Bash. Bonus: WF (Armor Spikes).
4) Fighter 3.
5) Fighter 4. Bonus: Shield Charge.
6) Fighter 5. Feat: Leap Attack.
7) Fighter 6. Bonus: Blood-Spiked Charger.
8) Feat Rogue 2. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
9) Fighter 7. Feat: Shield Slam.
10) Fighter 8. Bonus: Improved TWF.
11) Fighter 9.
12) Fighter 10. Feat: WS (Spiked Shield), Bonus: Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing).
13) Fighter 11.
14) Fighter 12. Bonus: WS (Armor Spikes).
15) Fighter 13. Feat: Greater TWF.
16) Fighter 14. Bonus: GWF (Spiked Shield).
17) Fighter 15.
18) Fighter 16. Feat: Two-Weapon Rend, Bonus: GWS (Spiked Shield).
19) Fighter 17.
20) Fighter 18. Bonus: Weapon Supremacy (Spiked Shield)





Please use the rest of the thread's time to suggest future feats!

Hrrrm. Mark of Malbolge maybe (Fiendish Codex)? Multivoice (Savage Species) can be pretty tricky to pull off. There's a few others in Savage Species that might be worth a look... Area Attack, Detach, and Wingstorm.

[daremetoidareyo]

To continue my tradition of posting a build after the contest has closed... an update on the "Spikey MacPokeSpike" build.

Race: Spiker.
1) Feat Rogue 1. Feat: Travel Devotion, Bonus: Power Attack, Flaw: TWF, Flaw: IBR.
2) Fighter 1. Bonus: WF (Spiked Shield)
3) Fighter 2. Feat: Improved Shield Bash. Bonus: WF (Armor Spikes).
4) Fighter 3.
5) Fighter 4. Bonus: Shield Charge.
6) Fighter 5. Feat: Leap Attack.
7) Fighter 6. Bonus: Blood-Spiked Charger.
8) Feat Rogue 2. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
9) Fighter 7. Feat: Shield Slam.
10) Fighter 8. Bonus: Improved TWF.
11) Fighter 9.
12) Fighter 10. Feat: WS (Spiked Shield), Bonus: Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing).
13) Fighter 11.
14) Fighter 12. Bonus: WS (Armor Spikes).
15) Fighter 13. Feat: Greater TWF.
16) Fighter 14. Bonus: GWF (Spiked Shield).
17) Fighter 15.
18) Fighter 16. Feat: Two-Weapon Rend, Bonus: GWS (Spiked Shield).
19) Fighter 17.
20) Fighter 18. Bonus: Weapon Supremacy (Spiked Shield)

I appreciate the additional content. Just imagine, someday in the future, grognardiologist archeologists will analyze giantitp content and realize how awesome a resource optimize this feat is.






Hrrrm. Mark of Malbolge maybe (Fiendish Codex)? Multivoice (Savage Species) can be pretty tricky to pull off. There's a few others in Savage Species that might be worth a look... Area Attack, Detach, and Wingstorm.

Mark of Malbolge and mutlivoice give the player cool new options, but they don't lend themselves to exploitation well.

From Savage species, what has caught my eye is Stamp. Wingstorm is pretty great seeing as how porous it is. Blowhard is equivalently fantastic. Pain mastery definitely makes the list. Detach is fantastic. Area attack will be backburnered for a bit. Thanks for the suggestions

[WhamBamSam]

Hrrrm. Mark of Malbolge maybe (Fiendish Codex)? Multivoice (Savage Species) can be pretty tricky to pull off. There's a few others in Savage Species that might be worth a look... Area Attack, Detach, and Wingstorm.I support all of the Savage Species feats (I was going to suggest Area Attack and Detach myself) and would add Multitasking to the list.

Mark of Malbolge and mutlivoice give the player cool new options, but they don't lend themselves to exploitation well.

From Savage species, what has caught my eye is Stamp. Wingstorm is pretty great seeing as how porous it is. Blowhard is equivalently fantastic. Pain mastery definitely makes the list. Detach is fantastic. Area attack will be backburnered for a bit. Thanks for the suggestionsMultivoice is fun, but I think there's really only one build, up to minor tweaks, that fits with it. Multitasking is a bit more interesting in my opinion.

Stamp is really hard to build around as a PC since its area of effect seems to be based on RHD ("HD of the base creature"). I'm not entirely without thoughts on it, however. I prefer Tempest Breath to Blowhard, since if you can get a breath weapon (not that hard) it's usually strictly better. I guess Blowhard potentially covers a wider area.

Continuing with the theme of more monster-friendly feats, maybe Elder Giant Magic (Secrets of Xen'drik). And of course, tactical feats are always fun for the variety of options. Looking over a list of them, I don't think I've ever seen Battleshifter Training or Ragewild Fighting (both Races of Eberron) used and they seem like a potentially good time. Gnome Tunnel Acrobatics (Dungeonscape) is pretty hilarious too.