[3.5e] Options while prone

[Kuu Lightwing]

I might have missed something, but I can't find in the rules any restrictions on which actions a character can perform while being prone.

This question arsied during last session when my Astral Construct tripped a ghast and DM wanted to use the withdraw action. I don't see why the can't do that.

That's not that much of a problem by itself, but prone doesn't seem to put any restrictions on the speed. There's crawl action, but I don't see any mention that you must use it to move while prone, so in theory I can even use Move to move up to my speed while provoking attack of opportunity while being prone.

So, can you withdraw while being prone? If you can, what is your speed? Can you tumble? Jump? Climb?

[Mutazoia]

I might have missed something, but I can't find in the rules any restrictions on which actions a character can perform while being prone.

This question arsied during last session when my Astral Construct tripped a ghast and DM wanted to use the withdraw action. I don't see why the can't do that.

That's not that much of a problem by itself, but prone doesn't seem to put any restrictions on the speed. There's crawl action, but I don't see any mention that you must use it to move while prone, so in theory I can even use Move to move up to my speed while provoking attack of opportunity while being prone.

So, can you withdraw while being prone? If you can, what is your speed? Can you tumble? Jump? Climb?

Once again, 3.X wasn't written very well, and you've found another instance of a hole in the rules.

Normally, move actions provoke AOO's, and standing is a move action. Withdraw allows you to move "up to doulble your normal speed" with out provoking an AOO for the first threatened square you move through (opponants with reach will still get an AOO for the second square). Your speed while prone (crawling) is 5'. Even though the rules do not explicitly state it, you can't move as fast flat on your back (or belly) as you can on your feet. Basically, you can't move when you are prone (because you are basically laying down). To move you either stand up (AOO) or crawl (AOO).

This is where a DM is going to have to make a house ruling. Withdraw basically means you are doing nothing but backing away and warding off blows. You can't do that while you are crawling (your hands are busy moving you across the ground). Common sense would, therefore, state that you cannot use withdraw unless you are standing and able to defend yourself as you move, and the very act of crawling negates any chance of defending yourself. (Hard to use a shield and/or weapon with your hands planted in the dirt.)

[Mordaedil]

I would maybe allow a player to roll out of danger with a tumble check.

But uh, yeah, not sure if the rules specify how well that would work.

[weckar]

Withdraw, from how I read it, is focusing all your energy on moving away and dodging. You can dodge while prone. So you can Withdraw.

[Mutazoia]

I would maybe allow a player to roll out of danger with a tumble check.

But uh, yeah, not sure if the rules specify how well that would work.

If my math is correct, it would be something like a DC 25 tumble check to tumble away while prone, but the upside is you would end up on your feet, so you wouldn't have to use another move action to stand...


Withdraw, from how I read it, is focusing all your energy on moving away and dodging. You can dodge while prone. So you can Withdraw.

How do you defend yourself if you turn your back on your enemy and crawl away? You can't. Besides, a withdraw is a full round action...you use your attack actions for full defence, and you use your full movement action to move away, but you can't use your full movement while prone, so.....

[Khedrac]

Actually this one is defined, but only implicitly.

One can only use modes of movement that work for the conditions in which you are in - you cannot burrow in the air or swim on land.

Now the basic movement mode (usually walking) is not actually defined as walking, however it is defined as not being any other mode of movement elsewhere specified...
Now the SRD does say

Creatures may have modes of movement other than walking and running. These are natural, not magical, unless specifically noted in a monster description. But we cannot take that to mean it has to be walking or things like Gelatinous Cubes (Speed 15) can't actually move (no legs).

So, we know that it is not:
Swimming
Burrowing
Flying
(Crawling)

So, the movement of ghast is whatever the DM rules it to be, but we know it is not crawling as that is a specially defined action.

You can crawl 5 feet as a move action.
So, when prone the ghast can withdraw, but it cannot do so while doing anything other than moving normally:

You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don’t have a listed speed

Now crawling is not a movement mode in its own right, it is more a special condition on a standard movement mode. It is also limited to being a move action which suggests that it should not be possible to crawl for a Withdraw.

So potentially, and this is DM's call, a ghast can perform a withdrawl for a crawl to move a total of 10'.
Personally I think it should not be possible, but it is a grey area and not an unreasonable one for the DM to overrule.

The other question is, once ruled attemptable, whether you get an attack of opportunity for the first square travelled? To my surprise the answer is clear cut: NO.

Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl.

The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see
Whilst the crawl always provokes, withdraw does not cancel the provocation, it blocks the threat and one cannot take an AoO against an opponent one does not threaten.

[Mutazoia]

Actually this one is defined, but only implicitly.

One can only use modes of movement that work for the conditions in which you are in - you cannot burrow in the air or swim on land.

Now the basic movement mode (usually walking) is not actually defined as walking, however it is defined as not being any other mode of movement elsewhere specified...
Now the SRD does say
But we cannot take that to mean it has to be walking or things like Gelatinous Cubes (Speed 15) can't actually move (no legs).

So, we know that it is not:
Swimming
Burrowing
Flying
(Crawling)

So, the movement of ghast is whatever the DM rules it to be, but we know it is not crawling as that is a specially defined action.

So, when prone the ghast can withdraw, but it cannot do so while doing anything other than moving normally:


Now crawling is not a movement mode in its own right, it is more a special condition on a standard movement mode. It is also limited to being a move action which suggests that it should not be possible to crawl for a Withdraw.

So potentially, and this is DM's call, a ghast can perform a withdrawl for a crawl to move a total of 10'.
Personally I think it should not be possible, but it is a grey area and not an unreasonable one for the DM to overrule.

The other question is, once ruled attemptable, whether you get an attack of opportunity for the first square travelled? To my surprise the answer is clear cut: NO.


Whilst the crawl always provokes, withdraw does not cancel the provocation, it blocks the threat and one cannot take an AoO against an opponent one does not threaten.

But then, crawling is defined as a move action, and a withdraw is defined as a full round action. You cannot do a move action and a full round action in the same round...

"A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action"

So, no, you can't crawl and withdraw.

[Khedrac]

But then, crawling is defined as a move action, and a withdraw is defined as a full round action. You cannot do a move action and a full round action in the same round...

"A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action"

So, no, you can't crawl and withdraw.
Yes - I did say that:
Now crawling is not a movement mode in its own right, it is more a special condition on a standard movement mode. It is also limited to being a move action which suggests that it should not be possible to crawl for a Withdraw.
That said, it is a bit ambiguous (though not very compared to most of the ambiguities) so I went on to analyse what happens if the DM permits it.

[Mutazoia]

Yes - I did say that:
That said, it is a bit ambiguous (though not very compared to most of the ambiguities) so I went on to analyse what happens if the DM permits it.

Of course, if you really wanted to be a stickler, the only move action listed under "Prone" is standing up, so by RAW the ONLY movement you can make while prone is to stand up. Which would mean you could technically only crawl when you kneel down to do so on purpose ;)

[weckar]

How do you defend yourself if you turn your back on your enemy and crawl away? You can't. The description of withdraw says nothing about defending yourself. I would argue that if you are on your back and 'spiderwalking' away you are more than nimble enough to dodge a blow if you give it your full attention during the movement. Crawling backwards is also perfectly valid so there is no 'turning your back' involved anymore than during a normal withdraw action.

[Mutazoia]

The description of withdraw says nothing about defending yourself. I would argue that if you are on your back and 'spiderwalking' away you are more than nimble enough to dodge a blow if you give it your full attention during the movement. Crawling backwards is also perfectly valid so there is no 'turning your back' involved anymore than during a normal withdraw action.

Now your just pulling stuff outta yer backside, lol. So, you are saying you can spiderwalk, backwards, at "double move" speed (a sprint), all while dodging attacks? Yeah.....okay...... :smallamused:

I would LOVE to see you try to dodge ANYTHING while spiderwalking backwards, at any speed.


But, to use your logic, the rules do not list a move speed while prone. So, while prone, you have a move speed of ZERO. Withdraw lets you move double your move speed. Double of ZERO, is ZERO. In order to have a move speed you must either stand up (suck an AOO) and wait a turn to move, or Crawl (and suck an AOO). Both of those actions are move actions. Withdraw is a full round action, which, as quoted above, and by RAW, may not be combined with a move action. SO (as stated previously) no, you cannot crawl and withdraw.

[weckar]

Pretty sure 'base land speed isn't just defined for bipedal movement, so I don't see why it would change crawling because you are still on land. The speed given while crawling is a specific override, but... :smallconfused:


Also, I'd prefer if you'd leave my backside alone, thanks.

[TIPOT]

But, to use your logic, the rules do not list a move speed while prone. So, while prone, you have a move speed of ZERO. Withdraw lets you move double your move speed. Double of ZERO, is ZERO. In order to have a move speed you must either stand up (suck an AOO) and wait a turn to move, or Crawl (and suck an AOO). Both of those actions are move actions. Withdraw is a full round action, which, as quoted above, and by RAW, may not be combined with a move action. SO (as stated previously) no, you cannot crawl and withdraw.

You could also stand up then convert your standard action to move away

[Mutazoia]

You could also stand up then convert your standard action to move away

But standing is a move action, and thus would negate any opportunity to use a full round action, such as a withdraw, that turn. So at best you could do a 5' step (to avoid an AOO) or do a standard move and provoke an AOO. You still wouldn't be able to stand (or crawl) AND do a withdraw.

[Menzath]

So I only glanced at all the replies, only saw some conjecture.
Pg.142 of the phb has rules for crawling.
Can only move 5' as a move action, all movement provokes AoO's(And since crawling is slightly more specific that the withdraw action our table ruled that you cannot avoid the crawling AoO's unless it's from a more specific rule). Now if you tumble at full speed(if your DM allows while prone) you could move the 5 without taking the AoO. But at that point you might as well DC 35 tumble to stand as a free action(not sure if you still take standing AoO's). The best would be getting a perfect fly speed, there is no prone.
And there may be feats or class specific abilities that I am not aware of as well.

Edit: also of note in the MM somewhere it talks of none legged monsters and standing/falling prone as free actions for them that do not provoke AoO's. So Snakes, ashworms, gelatinous cubes, and the like.

[daremetoidareyo]

can you jump while prone?

[Mutazoia]

can you jump while prone?

I don't see how, as you would have to get to your feet to jump, which could count as standing up. Uless there is some form of "Instant Stand" feat that I'm unaware of, that is. The best I can figure is using tumble (DC 35) to do a free stand, and then jump.

[Kuu Lightwing]

So, the common ground seems to be is that it's up to DM. Fair enough.

The problem with Crawl action is that it's listed as separate action, and I can't see anywhere in the rules this phrase that would clear everything up: "When you're lying on the ground, you can move; however, you must crawl to do so." It is, however in "Rules of the Game" archive article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040608a) and it makes much more clear. There's also a phrase here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040608a) that says you can tumble while doing so.

After having few encounters with Wolves, it seems to me that dealing with Prone condition is really important, and because of my preferred style, I often try to mix Boots of Agile Leaping and 5 ranks in Balance to be able to stand up as free action, but what are other options out there?

[Zombimode]

After having few encounters with Wolves, it seems to me that dealing with Prone condition is really important, and because of my preferred style, I often try to mix Boots of Agile Leaping and 5 ranks in Balance to be able to stand up as free action, but what are other options out there?

Well, there is the Prone Attack feat from Complete Warrior. You get the chance to get up whenever you make an attack while prone. And your attacks while prone are not at a penalty.

[Diarmuid]

So, the common ground seems to be is that it's up to DM. Fair enough.

The problem with Crawl action is that it's listed as separate action, and I can't see anywhere in the rules this phrase that would clear everything up: "When you're lying on the ground, you can move; however, you must crawl to do so." It is, however in "Rules of the Game" archive article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040608a) and it makes much more clear. There's also a phrase here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040608a) that says you can tumble while doing so.

After having few encounters with Wolves, it seems to me that dealing with Prone condition is really important, and because of my preferred style, I often try to mix Boots of Agile Leaping and 5 ranks in Balance to be able to stand up as free action, but what are other options out there?

I believe there are 2 different skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel that let you stand from prone w/o provoking AoO's. I forget what the difference is, once may be a move and the other a free or something.

[SangoProduction]

There are 2 skill tricks relating to getting back on your feet. One removes the AoO, the other lets you immediately get back up, once you're downed.

There's also the Thief Acrobat, which gives Kip-Up which lets you get back on your feet as a free action without AoO. It also lets you tumble at full speed without the -10 penalty. Both at level 1. The class is kinda garbage, but still.

And then, if you're open to Homebrew, there's the Kip Up (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Kip_Up_(3.5e_Feat))feat, which you can qualify for relatively early, and does as the Thief Acrobat does, but costing a feat instead of a level. I wouldn't say that's a good thing, if you would eventually qualify for Thief Acrobat anyway, but hey. Your choice.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Thanks for the answers. So, it seems to me that Boots of Agile Leaping is still the most convenient way, right? Unless I want to use that slot for something else, that's it. But I can enchant those boots further, can't I?

[daremetoidareyo]

I don't see how, as you would have to get to your feet to jump, which could count as standing up. Uless there is some form of "Instant Stand" feat that I'm unaware of, that is. The best I can figure is using tumble (DC 35) to do a free stand, and then jump.

Does it say that you have to be on your feet to use the jump skill, or is that an assumption?



Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet.

All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled.

Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round.

If you have ranks in Jump and you succeed on a Jump check, you land on your feet (when appropriate).

0 speed = -18 modifier
No running start, double the jump DC.

You can totally use jump to move around, you just need to be able to beat a doubled jump DC with -18 modifier. And if you can jump, you can attack with tiger claw stuff...

[Mutazoia]

Does it say that you have to be on your feet to use the jump skill, or is that an assumption?

Lay on your back. Now jump. Thank you. Rules were not written to cover common sense things like needed to be in an uppright, walking position to walk. By your logic your PC could lay flat on his back and still sprint (double move). Or, as I have stated before, the only move action listed under "Prone" is "You may stand up." Which would indicate that the ONLY thing you can do while prone, is stand....since it doesn't say you can do anything else, you can't, right?

[daremetoidareyo]

Lay on your back. Now jump. Thank you. Rules were not written to cover common sense things like needed to be in an uppright, walking position to walk. By your logic your PC could lay flat on his back and still sprint (double move). Or, as I have stated before, the only move action listed under "Prone" is "You may stand up." Which would indicate that the ONLY thing you can do while prone, is stand....since it doesn't say you can do anything else, you can't, right?
Yeah it's so unbelievable to jump from a prone position, I mean with all the dragons and fireballs and whatnot.
Magikarp used splash.

It was unconvincing.

You can totally attempt to jump from a prone position, It's like using the worm dance move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1yUlSAovYw

That guy can do it, and his whole body isn't a weapon!

[Mutazoia]

Yeah it's so unbelievable to jump from a prone position, I mean with all the dragons and fireballs and whatnot.
Magikarp used splash.

It was unconvincing.

You can totally attempt to jump from a prone position, It's like using the worm dance move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1yUlSAovYw

That guy can do it, and his whole body isn't a weapon!

Sorry, there is no "worm dance" move action. And, as at least one part of his body was touching the ground the entire time, you can't consider that a "jump".

[Doctor Awkward]

Prone is a defined condition in D&D. These are the combat modifiers and penalties for being prone. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#prone)

Further references to prone are found under actions in combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)

In a general sense, "The rules don't say I can't!" is never a good way to approach the mechanics of D&D. This is because the rules are structured in such a way as to tell you what you can do, not what you can't do. There are always exceptions, but a good baseline assumption is that the rules will tell you if you have a given ability, or how you can behave mechanically in a given situation.

The end of this article has additional relevant discussions regarding tripping and being prone: Rules of the Game (Part Two) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a)

[Kuu Lightwing]

Prone is a defined condition in D&D. These are the combat modifiers and penalties for being prone. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#prone)

Further references to prone are found under actions in combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)

In a general sense, "The rules don't say I can't!" is never a good way to approach the mechanics of D&D. This is because the rules are structured in such a way as to tell you what you can do, not what you can't do. There are always exceptions, but a good baseline assumption is that the rules will tell you if you have a given ability, or how you can behave mechanically in a given situation.

The end of this article has additional relevant discussions regarding tripping and being prone: Rules of the Game (Part Two) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a)

Sometimes it's not a good way to approach it, but on the other hand, listing your options while being prone would be a good idea instead of letting players and DM guess what is possible to do. Like mentioning that if you want to move you must use the crawl action. The prone condition only lists penalties and bonuses to attack rolls and AC and the required action to stand up. It doesn't actually say that you can crawl, while here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#move) it's stated that you can crawl five feet as a move action. Interestingly enough, it doesn't say that you can do it while being prone. So, technically, crawling would have the exact same limitations as moving your speed in regard to movement-impeding conditions, unless they specifically say that you can crawl, but can't move, which prone does not.

Also, other movement-impeding conditions actually state which restrictions do they impose on the affected creature - like Entangled: "An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge..."

Anyhoo, I guess I might be reading too much of Rules Dysfunction threads, but I believe that this actually belongs there.

[Pugwampy]

I think rolling away as a withdraw action is perfectly acceptable . Perhaps at half speed ?

Perhaps you have a player buddie with more then half a concept of team play and chooses to spend his turn dragging you away , possibly taking the AOO . There is so many options you can do in combat other then slash or spell .