Volo's Guide to Absurdly Small Dinosaurs

[Regitnui]

First I'll head off the claims of game abstraction and say that I am aware of this being a game and not something to worry about. But;

My copy of the Volo's Guide says that the 4-metre long Deinonychus is a Medium creature and the 2-metre Velociraptor is Tiny. I went back to 3.5, these animals were Large and Medium respectively. What happened, Wizards? Do the halflings of Eberron ride dinosaurs that are only cat-sized now? I certainly remember them riding Velociraptors. If Wizards needed a Tiny Beast to fill the ranks of the Dinosaurs, surely they're big enough geeks to remember Compsognathus or Archaeopteryx...

So what do you think, Playgrounders? Mistake, mislabeling, or just an errata?

[Arkhios]

Real world velociraptor (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor) was actually very small, only up to half a meter high, and weighs about as much as a human child.

Likewise deinonychus (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinonychus) was smaller than popular media depicts. Only about 1,8 meters high, the size of a human.

The reasoning behind their sizes is probably due to the size of their torso, since their neck and tail covered quite a large part of their length.

Edit: sorry for the editing.

[DracoKnight]

First I'll head off the claims of game abstraction and say that I am aware of this being a game and not something to worry about. But;

My copy of the Volo's Guide says that the 4-metre long Deinonychus is a Medium creature and the 2-metre Velociraptor is Tiny. I went back to 3.5, these animals were Large and Medium respectively. What happened, Wizards? Do the halflings of Eberron ride dinosaurs that are only cat-sized now? I certainly remember them riding Velociraptors. If Wizards needed a Tiny Beast to fill the ranks of the Dinosaurs, surely they're big enough geeks to remember Compsognathus or Archaeopteryx...

So what do you think, Playgrounders? Mistake, mislabeling, or just an errata?

It bothered me too - I will be making them Large and Medium respectively.

[DracoKnight]

Real world velociraptor (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor) was actually very small, thus justifying the tiny size. Jurassic Park is bad for reference ;)

Likewise deinonychus (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinonychus) was smaller the Jurassic Park depicted, about the size of a human.

The sizes given by Regitnui are correct.

[Goober4473]

Velociraptors should probably be small, based on some Googling. They stood ~3 feet tall. Their length is more a function of tail. Still, 3 feet tall is bigger than a kobold, and with a weight of 20-30 pounds, probably smaller than most halflings. A size of Tiny implies these are perhaps extra small examples of the species.

It looks like deinonychus were around 5 feet tall though, and their length of ~10 feet is mostly tail and long head. With a weight of around 175 pounds, they sound very Medium to me.

[Blue Lantern]

Real world velociraptor (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor) was actually very small, thus justifying the tiny size. Jurassic Park is bad for reference ;)

Likewise deinonychus (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinonychus) was smaller the Jurassic Park depicted, about the size of a human.

The description in the link would make velociraptor more small that tiny imho, but interesting point overall.

[Ninja_Prawn]

The description in the link would make velociraptor more small that tiny imho, but interesting point overall.

Reminds me of this comic (https://xkcd.com/1104/). Science's understanding of dinosaurs has changed a lot since Jurassic Park.

[Arkhios]

The sizes given by Regitnui are correct.

They are, but he was wondering why they are medium and tiny while previously the books depicted them larger. I believe since dinosaurs actually have existed, WotC wanted to honor their true sizes.


The description in the link would make velociraptor more small that tiny imho, but interesting point overall.

True, they'd make more sense as small.

[Gastronomie]

Reminds me of this comic (https://xkcd.com/1104/). Science's understanding of dinosaurs has changed a lot since Jurassic Park.If I recall correctly, they knew Velociraptors were small when Jurassic Park was created, but they decided to call the semi-large raptors Velociraptors anyway because they thought its name sounded cool.

[Arkhios]

If I recall correctly, they knew Velociraptors were small when Jurassic Park was created, but they decided to call the semi-large raptors Velociraptors anyway because they thought its name sounded cool.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. They could've been called Deinonychi instead but I believe it's pretty difficult to pronounce by someone who doesn't work with names like these on regular basis (such as actors vs scientists). Velociraptor is much easier to pronounce, and it sure does sound cool.

[Regitnui]

The sizes given by Regitnui are correct.

In game, yeah. But it seemed odd contrasted with my prehistoric animal book. Taking the measurements as including their tail makes the in game sizes make more sense. So I guess Eberron halflings ride Deinonychi now.


I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. They could've been called Deinonychi instead but I believe it's pretty difficult to pronounce by someone who doesn't work with names like these on regular basis (such as actors vs scientists). Velociraptor is much easier to pronounce, and it sure does sound cool.

I don't know, Deinonychi (Day-non-i-k-eye) sounds pretty threatening to me...

[Coidzor]

First I'll head off the claims of game abstraction and say that I am aware of this being a game and not something to worry about. But;

My copy of the Volo's Guide says that the 4-metre long Deinonychus is a Medium creature and the 2-metre Velociraptor is Tiny. I went back to 3.5, these animals were Large and Medium respectively. What happened, Wizards? Do the halflings of Eberron ride dinosaurs that are only cat-sized now? I certainly remember them riding Velociraptors. If Wizards needed a Tiny Beast to fill the ranks of the Dinosaurs, surely they're big enough geeks to remember Compsognathus or Archaeopteryx...

So what do you think, Playgrounders? Mistake, mislabeling, or just an errata?

Are you sure you're not thinking of the Megaraptor, which was originally printed as Huge and then Errata'd to be Large? AFAIK, Deinonychus was always Medium. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm)

[hymer]

Deinonychi

Come on, guys. Plural of 'deinonychus' is 'deinonychuses'. The -us to -i plural formation would be from Latin, while deinonychus is from Greek. I expect the Greek plural would be 'deinonychodei'. :smalltongue:

[Arkhios]

Come on, guys. Plural of 'deinonychus' is 'deinonychuses'. The -us to -i plural formation would be from Latin, while deinonychus is from Greek. I expect the Greek plural would be 'deinonychodei'. :smalltongue:

Is it? I honestly didn't know that, instead thought that all those names were from latin, so, thanks for correcting it. :smalltongue:

[Regitnui]

Come on, guys. Plural of 'deinonychus' is 'deinonychuses'. The -us to -i plural formation would be from Latin, while deinonychus is from Greek. I expect the Greek plural would be 'deinonychodei'. :smalltongue:

Deinonychodei? Day-non-ik-oh-day? That sounds like a headache for pronounciation.

[Arkhios]

Deinonychodei? Day-non-ik-oh-day? That sounds like a headache for pronounciation.

I think it's actually pronounced Day-no-nik-oh-dai, but that's just me *shrug*

[hamishspence]

Are you sure you're not thinking of the Megaraptor, which was originally printed as Huge and then Errata'd to be Large? AFAIK, Deinonychus was always Medium. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm)

Nope - both were errataed - from Huge to Large (Megaraptor) & from Large to Medium (Deinonychus).

Eberron Campaign Guide's Clawfoot halfling mount, was specified as correlating to Velociraptor and being Medium.

[Malifice]

First I'll head off the claims of game abstraction and say that I am aware of this being a game and not something to worry about. But;

My copy of the Volo's Guide says that the 4-metre long Deinonychus is a Medium creature and the 2-metre Velociraptor is Tiny. I went back to 3.5, these animals were Large and Medium respectively. What happened, Wizards? Do the halflings of Eberron ride dinosaurs that are only cat-sized now? I certainly remember them riding Velociraptors. If Wizards needed a Tiny Beast to fill the ranks of the Dinosaurs, surely they're big enough geeks to remember Compsognathus or Archaeopteryx...

So what do you think, Playgrounders? Mistake, mislabeling, or just an errata?

http://www.prehistoric-wildlife.com/images/species/d/deinonychus-size.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-P3XfkHWDqPY/UTD92Q41L3I/AAAAAAAAABU/h5BzzIqnfaI/s1600/velociraptor-size.jpg

Like most other things this time, 5E got it right.

[N810]

What we need are some Utah Raptors.
http://paleodico.wifeo.com/images/e/ech/echelle-de-taille-dromaeosaurides.jpg

[Regitnui]

We have Utahraptors. They're called monks polymorphed into tyrannosaurs with haste cast on them.

[Arcangel4774]

I don't know, Deinonychi (Day-non-i-k-eye) sounds pretty threatening to me...

I'm fairly certain the first syllable is pronounced like die or dye, as the deino root is the same used in dinosaur meaning terrible. If your curious nychos, the other root, means clawed.

[Regitnui]

I'm fairly certain the first syllable is pronounced like die or dye, as the deino root is the same used in dinosaur meaning terrible. If your curious nychos, the other root, means clawed.

I'm aware, thanks. They're both dromeosaurs, known for their sickle-clawed toes (hence "Terrible Claw"), and thought to be one of, if not the, closest relatives to modern birds. They were partly responsible for the dinosaur Renaissance in the mid-90's.

They're called Carvers in Eberron, and with the new edition, ridden by halflings who herd Triceratops across the wide Talenta Plains. You can also find them in Argonessen, where they stock the dragons' hunting range as a challenging fight for young dragons that doesn't actually pose a lethal threat. As the halflings were said to ride clawfoots (velociraptors) and could even have them as a ranger companion back in 3.5, I was confused. I guess the carver's taken over as the halfling mount.

Question; Could a Ranger (Revised or Original) use a VGtM Deinonychus as a animal companion?

[DracoKnight]

What we need are some Utah Raptors.
http://paleodico.wifeo.com/images/e/ech/echelle-de-taille-dromaeosaurides.jpg

You mean, like this (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HyflU4i-l)?

[Gastronomie]

I wish they could create a Dilaphosaurus (https://consequenceofsound.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/dilophosaurus-gif.gif?w=807&h=430) for official use (yes, I know, real Dilaphosauruses didn't have frills - but it admittedly was an epic scene). Like, a "Frill" action that recharges on 5-6, making creatures nearby blinded and/or frightened. Not sure how to balance it but.

[Sir cryosin]

I wish they could create a Dilaphosaurus (https://consequenceofsound.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/dilophosaurus-gif.gif?w=807&h=430) for official use (yes, I know, real Dilaphosauruses didn't have frills - but it admittedly was an epic scene). Like, a "Frill" action that recharges on 5-6, making creatures nearby blinded and/or frightened. Not sure how to balance it but.

That easy just change some things on the black dragon keep its acid breath. Just describe it as a black sticky goo that has a blinding effect with a small acid damage every round it is on the target. For it frills keep the dragons frightful presence.

[Shining Wrath]

Real world velociraptor (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor) was actually very small, only up to half a meter high, and weighs about as much as a human child.

Likewise deinonychus (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinonychus) was smaller than popular media depicts. Only about 1,8 meters high, the size of a human.

The reasoning behind their sizes is probably due to the size of their torso, since their neck and tail covered quite a large part of their length.

Edit: sorry for the editing.

Yep. But something 3' tall and 6' long running in packs with sharp teeth can still be terrifying. My mother used to work with the 2 year old class at a day care.
The horror. The horror.


Reminds me of this comic (https://xkcd.com/1104/). Science's understanding of dinosaurs has changed a lot since Jurassic Park.

Yep. But Jurassic Park velociraptors ought to exist, dammit. I'm writing to NDGT to complain.

My complaint is that brontosaurus is lower CR than tyrannosaurus. Yes, T-Rex was an apex predator (5-20 tons), but it should have roughly the same chance against a apatosaurus (36-80 tons) as a tiger has against an adult elephant - that is, you've got to be starving and desperate to try it.

[Gastronomie]

That easy just change some things on the black dragon keep its acid breath. Just describe it as a black sticky goo that has a blinding effect with a small acid damage every round it is on the target. For it frills keep the dragons frightful presence.That's a pretty good re-fluff. Nice idea.

[Gwendol]

Yep. But something 3' tall and 6' long running in packs with sharp teeth can still be terrifying. My mother used to work with the 2 year old class at a day care.
The horror. The horror.


Today's win of the internet.

[hamishspence]

Like most other things this time, 5E got it right.

Are most Tiny creatures in 5E comparable in weight or height to Velociraptor though?

[Coffee_Dragon]

Imagine if that Utahraptor slipped in the shower.

[Blue Lantern]

Like most other things this time, 5E got it right.

I still think it makes more sense as small.

If you compare it to tiny sized beasts in the monster manual you got the likes of owl, rat, hawk, badger.

[TundraBuccaneer]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. They could've been called Deinonychi instead but I believe it's pretty difficult to pronounce by someone who doesn't work with names like these on regular basis (such as actors vs scientists). Velociraptor is much easier to pronounce, and it sure does sound cool.

I thought they used velociraptor because the book called it velociraptor and when the book was written they thought these animals where the same or a velociraptor could become as large as a deinonychus.

Also velociraptor being tiny is more like how pseudodragon is tiny(it can fly off with a halfling) or a goliath being medium they are just at the border but not quite their. With the velociraptor I would argue that because of its light weight its should be tiny.

A deinonychus in the same weight and size class as a panther would be perfect in my opinion. Also what is its CR?

[Malifice]

Are most Tiny creatures in 5E comparable in weight or height to Velociraptor though?

Small is a gnome or halfling or large dog like a Rottweiler. Tiny is a cat or a rooster (the latter of which is probably more accurate for a velociraptor). They're probably straddling that divide.

Maybe the really big ones get to small size. Increase HD accordingly, up damage die by a step and add +2 to Strength for the 'Alpha males' of the pack (flock?).

I do tend to find that when in doubt with size, they tend to round down (possibly granting powerful build type abilities in the process as a kind of pseudo counts as bigger).

Size is a restriction for a fair few powers and abilities and spells (grappling, wild shape, spell targets etc) so IMO they tend to err on the conservative side when a critter can be either/ or.

At least they put feathers on them this time. Pity the T-Rex is depicted without them.

[Shining Wrath]

Small is a gnome or halfling or large dog like a Rottweiler. Tiny is a cat or a rooster (the latter of which is probably more accurate for a velociraptor). They're probably straddling that divide.

Maybe the really big ones get to small size. Increase HD accordingly, up damage die by a step and add +2 to Strength for the 'Alpha males' of the pack (flock?).

I do tend to find that when in doubt with size, they tend to round down (possibly granting powerful build type abilities in the process as a kind of pseudo counts as bigger).

Size is a restriction for a fair few powers and abilities and spells (grappling, wild shape, spell targets etc) so IMO they tend to err on the conservative side when a critter can be either/ or.

At least they put feathers on them this time. Pity the T-Rex is depicted without them.

Apropos nothing, I've been thinking a little about potion ingredients because my party has money now (slain dragon) and might try to buy stuff if they can find it. So, a T-Rex feather sounds like a splendid ingredient for a Fly potion.

Has anyone published anything about D&D 5e economics on the Playground?

[Regitnui]

At least they put feathers on them this time. Pity the T-Rex is depicted without them.

Best depiction of a T-rex with feathers I've seen was one with the Rex largely as normal, but it had a frill of feathers akin to a smaller lion's mane, along with a few down its back. A creature as large as a tyrannosaurus rex doesn't need insulation (see also elephant), so probably only had feathers for display purposes. They sure as Dolurrh couldn't fly with them.

[MaxWilson]

First I'll head off the claims of game abstraction and say that I am aware of this being a game and not something to worry about. But;

My copy of the Volo's Guide says that the 4-metre long Deinonychus is a Medium creature and the 2-metre Velociraptor is Tiny. I went back to 3.5, these animals were Large and Medium respectively. What happened, Wizards? Do the halflings of Eberron ride dinosaurs that are only cat-sized now? I certainly remember them riding Velociraptors. If Wizards needed a Tiny Beast to fill the ranks of the Dinosaurs, surely they're big enough geeks to remember Compsognathus or Archaeopteryx...

So what do you think, Playgrounders? Mistake, mislabeling, or just an errata?

All of 5E's dinosaurs are absurdly small. The T-Rex is about half-sized.

[eastmabl]

Come on, guys. Plural of 'deinonychus' is 'deinonychuses'. The -us to -i plural formation would be from Latin, while deinonychus is from Greek. I expect the Greek plural would be 'deinonychodei'. :smalltongue:

"'People called Romanes they go the house'?!"

[hymer]

"'People called Romanes they go the house'?!"

Sentencing people to write it out a hundred times doesn't really do much these days. :smallwink:

[Malifice]

Best depiction of a T-rex with feathers I've seen was one with the Rex largely as normal, but it had a frill of feathers akin to a smaller lion's mane, along with a few down its back. A creature as large as a tyrannosaurus rex doesn't need insulation (see also elephant), so probably only had feathers for display purposes. They sure as Dolurrh couldn't fly with them.

That and the tiny little wings dont help.

It reminds me of something poetic I thought up one day.

"In the face of mass global catastrophe, Dinosaurs didnt become extinct; they simply learnt how to fly"

[huttj509]

http://www.prehistoric-wildlife.com/images/species/d/deinonychus-size.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-P3XfkHWDqPY/UTD92Q41L3I/AAAAAAAAABU/h5BzzIqnfaI/s1600/velociraptor-size.jpg

Like most other things this time, 5E got it right.

Good images. I'd prob call em M and S rather than M and T, but visualizes the size rather than just the measurements.

[TundraBuccaneer]

Best depiction of a T-rex with feathers I've seen was one with the Rex largely as normal, but it had a frill of feathers akin to a smaller lion's mane, along with a few down its back. A creature as large as a tyrannosaurus rex doesn't need insulation (see also elephant), so probably only had feathers for display purposes. They sure as Dolurrh couldn't fly with them.

Don't forget the t-rex chick floof.:smallbiggrin:

[Sception]

I like my t-rexes Fluffy (http://i.imgur.com/th76axO.jpg)

[MaxWilson]

Don't forget that size categories in 5E are a measure of the horizontal space required. If four Velociraptors in a single 5' square don't all have enough room to all fight comfortably (without disadvantage), they aren't Tiny, they are Small.

[Shining Wrath]

Don't forget that size categories in 5E are a measure of the horizontal space required. If four Velociraptors in a single 5' square don't all have enough room to both fight comfortable (without disadvantage), they aren't Tiny, they are Small.

They are pack animals, though, accustomed to sharing space as they cooperate to take down prey.

We need a Swarm of Velociraptors.

[Addaran]

They are pack animals, though, accustomed to sharing space as they cooperate to take down prey.

We need a Swarm of Velociraptors.

I'd love to see a Swarm of Compsognathus, they were so cute in Jurassik Parc. <3

[Regitnui]

Don't forget the t-rex chick floof.:smallbiggrin:

That's true. Theropod babies were almost certainly downy. So baby T. Rexes were almost certainly fluffy with blood along their muzzles. Whether they went through a feathered phase or just shed the down, that's a different question.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

All of 5E's dinosaurs are absurdly small. The T-Rex is about half-sized.

Not once you realize they're primarily going off height, rather than length. The Tyrannosaurus was about 15 to 20 feet tall, which makes it either a big Huge or a small Gargantuan creature, so Huge works fine.

[Coidzor]

What we really need is some Dire Dinos.

[Finback]

If I recall correctly, they knew Velociraptors were small when Jurassic Park was created, but they decided to call the semi-large raptors Velociraptors anyway because they thought its name sounded cool.

Specifically, it was because Crichton was sticking closely to the work of Gregory S. Paul, who is generally a "lumper"*. He shoved a heap of dromaeosaurids into _Velociraptor_, in the same way almost all extant monitor lizards are in the genus _Varanus_. Needless to say, this is means fitting a lot of diversity into a single genus.


* Lumper is a phylogeny term for someone who tries to compress a lot of diversity into a single group; the inverse is a "splitter". To give an idea, consider the bears - they used to be in different genera, but as our understanding of genetics improved, they were being lumped together. Polar bears used to be a distinct genus, then they got lumped into _Ursus_ as a species, now they are generally considered to be a subspecies of the brown bear species. By contrast, people originally thought the tortoises of the Galapagos islands were a single species, but they were split into several, as there is a lot of diversity from island to island. This all becomes relevant when you look at certain dinosaurs, like _Triceratops_, which could range from three to *seventeen* different species. How much of that is sexual variation? Regional variation? Simple individual variation? Do we lump them into, say, three larger groups of _Triceratops_?

[Regitnui]

What we really need is some Dire Dinos.

I'd prefer the Magebred (smarter and tamed) and Horrid (Armour-plated, cunning and vicious) templates, but they were introduced in Eberron, so I may be biased.

[Finback]

Best depiction of a T-rex with feathers I've seen was one with the Rex largely as normal, but it had a frill of feathers akin to a smaller lion's mane, along with a few down its back. A creature as large as a tyrannosaurus rex doesn't need insulation (see also elephant), so probably only had feathers for display purposes. They sure as Dolurrh couldn't fly with them.

Well, the problem with the gigantothermy model is that in our modern world, we have some fairly large sized animals (Asian rhinos, specifically) which would fit easily into the same weight class as some tyrannosauroids, and they are fairly hairy, *and* live in the tropics. T. rex may not have *needed* insulation, but that assumes plumage is only used for insulation, when it can be used for a wide range of purposes. So a super-feathery one is just as valid as a semi-plumed one, once you consider mass may not be an issue at all.

For comparison, woolly mammoths and African elephants. One super hairy, one fairly sparse. But African elephants can spend time outdoors in British winters (case in point: London zoo), which would easily be similar to climate patterns regularly through the ice ages, where the mammoth was supposedly woolly to handle the cold.

[Hawkstar]

We have Utahraptors. They're called monks polymorphed into tyrannosaurs with haste cast on them.Utahraptors are a case of "Holy ****, Jurrassic Park actually got this right!" - they were discovered after the film was made, and turned out to be approximately the same size as depicted in it.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Well, the problem with the gigantothermy model is that in our modern world, we have some fairly large sized animals (Asian rhinos, specifically) which would fit easily into the same weight class as some tyrannosauroids, and they are fairly hairy, *and* live in the tropics.
As far as mammals go, I think I must object to calling Asian Rhinos fairly hairy. They're much less so than most.

[Finback]

Come on, guys. Plural of 'deinonychus' is 'deinonychuses'. The -us to -i plural formation would be from Latin, while deinonychus is from Greek. I expect the Greek plural would be 'deinonychodei'. :smalltongue:

The plural of any dinosaur* name is just its name. _Triceratops_, _Deinonychus_ and _Pteranodon_ are the plural for _Triceratops_, _Deinonychus_ and _Pteranodon_. All of them are scientific names, not common names, so there are no plurals. Granted, it makes some confusion when you try to use them as common names, but by definition, "Seventeen _Tyrannosaurus_ are coming down the hill at us!" is the correct usage.


* yes, I used a non-dinosaur in there. There are very few prehistoric animals that *do* have common names. Mastodons, mammoths, sabertooth cats are among the few.

[Finback]

I'm aware, thanks. They're both dromeosaurs, known for their sickle-clawed toes (hence "Terrible Claw"), and thought to be one of, if not the, closest relatives to modern birds. They were partly responsible for the dinosaur Renaissance in the mid-90's.

They're called Carvers in Eberron, and with the new edition, ridden by halflings who herd Triceratops across the wide Talenta Plains. You can also find them in Argonessen, where they stock the dragons' hunting range as a challenging fight for young dragons that doesn't actually pose a lethal threat. As the halflings were said to ride clawfoots (velociraptors) and could even have them as a ranger companion back in 3.5, I was confused. I guess the carver's taken over as the halfling mount.

Question; Could a Ranger (Revised or Original) use a VGtM Deinonychus as a animal companion?

At the moment, I've been reskinning them as wolves, and I don't have VG yet, but I think so long as the basic rules set out by WotC are met - not too big, no multi-attacks, etc. then it should be acceptable. Similarly, I reskin _Archaeopteryx_ as a raven, gorgonopsians as boars, and some larger pterosaurus as giant bats.

[Finback]

As far as mammals go, I think I must object to calling Asian Rhinos fairly hairy. They're much less so than most.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/81/61/f4/8161f446b424fc25a0362d8db94cd2f4.jpg shows how hairy they can be. Most people have this idea rhinos are bare-skinned.

[hymer]

The plural of any dinosaur* name is just its name.

I applaud your pedantry! As such, please don't take it the wrong way when I continue to use a plural for deinonychuses, helping the language evolve a thing that is so obviously useful for clarity - as shown by mammoths and mastodons.

Edit: And in that spirit the plural for 'tyrannosaurus' is 'tyrannosaurs'.

[Finback]

I applaud your pedantry! As such, please don't take it the wrong way when I continue to use a plural for deinonychuses, helping the language evolve a thing that is so obviously useful for clarity - as shown by mammoths and mastodons.

Edit: And in that spirit the plural for 'tyrannosaurus' is 'tyrannosaurs'.

Eh, I'll know what you meant anyway :) I'm just a deep palaeo-nerd.

Alternately, do a Xenozoic Tales, and have common names for creatures! Shivats, cutters, rukhs, wahonchuks, macks, etc. :)

[Regitnui]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/81/61/f4/8161f446b424fc25a0362d8db94cd2f4.jpg shows how hairy they can be. Most people have this idea rhinos are bare-skinned.

While that is fairly long hair, I notice it's concentrated on the back and flanks. The legs are (comparatively) bare. A T.Rex may have had a similar set up; feathers only on its neck or head; areas exposed to sunlight.

I did also mention other uses of feathers: display purposes (the aforementioned T.Rex mane) and lift. The smaller dromeosaurs, like velociraptor, are thought to have been able to extend their jumps by flapping, something that a T.rex's small arms would have been unable to do.

I don't claim tyrannosarus rex didn't have feathers. Just that it was Large enough to not need to be covered in them for insulation.

[hamishspence]

they were discovered after the film was made, and turned out to be approximately the same size as depicted in it.

Going by the afterword in Robert Bakker's Raptor Red- they were discovered partway-through making it - and turned out to be quite a bit bigger. The basic idea as presented there was that the scientific advisers on the movie were a little dubious about creating an unprecedently large dromaeosaur - but once Utahraptor had been discovered - the movie ones, intermediate between Deinonychus and Utahraptor, had precedent.

The movie monsters also had noticeably different proportions from normal dromaeosaurs - much shorter tails for one thing.
please don't take it the wrong way when I continue to use a plural for deinonychuses, helping the language evolve a thing that is so obviously useful for clarity - as shown by mammoths and mastodons.

Edit: And in that spirit the plural for 'tyrannosaurus' is 'tyrannosaurs'.

That's a case of multiple genera falling within one family though.

Within the family Tyrannosauria, there are many genera (Daspletosaurus, Albertosaurus, Gorgosaurus, etc), but they can all be called "tyrannosaurs".

"standard" mammoth genus is Mammuthus, "standard" mastodon genus is Mammut.

However - one could say that any member of the family Mammutidae, is a mastodon - even ones of a different genus, like Zygolophodon.

[Joe the Rat]

They are pack animals, though, accustomed to sharing space as they cooperate to take down prey.

We need a Swarm of Velociraptors.


I'd love to see a Swarm of Compsognathus, they were so cute in Jurassik Parc. <3
I really need to finish my Swarm conversion notes.

(Originally I was intending to use Swarms to deal with large scale combat: Use swarm rules for blocks of mook-monsters. I ended up using the autohit option).

But yes, the smaller dinos are now actual-sized vs. hollywood sized.

Best to think of size in "control and necessary for easy movement." Long necks add reach.

[Logosloki]

For those looking for the plural for Deinonychus, aside from the name itself and Deinonychuses (lame!, Boring!). I present to you... Deinonychon. Which has the added bonus of sounding like a band name.

Edit: Out of curiosity I checked to see and yes, Onychology is indeed the medical study of finger/toe-nails.

[Naanomi]

Are most Tiny creatures in 5E comparable in weight or height to Velociraptor though?
In 5e tiny just means 'anything smaller than small', it covers a substantial range so that such comparisons might not be meaningful

[JackPhoenix]

What we really need is some Dire Dinos.

Aren't dinosaurs (or at least theropods) dire chickens already? I mean, velociraptor is tiny, feathered and nasty...

[hamishspence]

In 5e tiny just means 'anything smaller than small', it covers a substantial range so that such comparisons might not be meaningful

I was thinking more "if it's not significantly smaller than other Small creatures - why should it be Tiny"?

If there are already Tiny creatures comparable to Velociraptor, or if the smallest Small creatures are all still a bit bigger than Velociraptor, it being Tiny is fine.

[TundraBuccaneer]

Aren't dinosaurs (or at least theropods) dire chickens already? I mean, velociraptor is tiny, feathered and nasty...

Why always chicken, why not an eagle-croc.(Its not personal, sorry if it looks like that, I just see and hear this everywhere thus its annoying me) Birds of prey are also bad-ass and feather why not use them to base dinosaurs on. And if the non-flying part bothers you: secretary bird.

[Regitnui]

Aren't dinosaurs (or at least theropods) dire chickens already? I mean, velociraptor is tiny, feathered and nasty...

Now I just picture a pack of white velociraptors chasing an elf in a green cap...

[JackPhoenix]

Why always chicken, why not an eagle-croc.(Its not personal, sorry if it looks like that, I just see and hear this everywhere thus its annoying me) Birds of prey are also bad-ass and feather why not use them to base dinosaurs on. And if the non-flying part bothers you: secretary bird.

Well, comparing them to chickens is funnier. As you say, birds of prey already are badass, just like dinosaurs, chickens aren't (some roosters are exception). The only birds even less similar to dinosaurs than chickens are propably penguins.

[Coidzor]

I'd prefer the Magebred (smarter and tamed) and Horrid (Armour-plated, cunning and vicious) templates, but they were introduced in Eberron, so I may be biased.

Well, those are general templates which would be nice to have added to the canon.

I suppose a general Dire template would be nice too, but I was talking about specific examples to add back in Pulp and Hollywood dinosrawrs.

[Malifice]

Polar bears used to be a distinct genus, then they got lumped into _Ursus_ as a species, now they are generally considered to be a subspecies of the brown bear species.

Yet they can interbreed. I suppose horses and donkeys (and lions and tigers) can as well and they're entirely different species.

Also; nice to see another West Aussie. You're up late!

[Maxilian]

Why always chicken, why not an eagle-croc.(Its not personal, sorry if it looks like that, I just see and hear this everywhere thus its annoying me) Birds of prey are also bad-ass and feather why not use them to base dinosaurs on. And if the non-flying part bothers you: secretary bird.

Because they don't fly, and chickens are the first avian creature that does not fly that people imagine first.

Note: IMHO we could say that we already have those in the MM (there's a large beast that is a bird that can be used as a mount, that may do the trick) -Maybe those are actual dinosours :P

[MaxWilson]

Not once you realize they're primarily going off height, rather than length. The Tyrannosaurus was about 15 to 20 feet tall, which makes it either a big Huge or a small Gargantuan creature, so Huge works fine.

If this supposition were true, you'd see two changes in the rules:

(1) Giants would be Gargantuan instead of Huge, and
(2) Huge creatures wouldn't be defined as requiring/controlling 15' x 15' of space, since some of them (like T-Rexes) wouldn't even fit inside of a space that small.

Remember that a Huge creature can fit inside of a 10' x 10' space if it takes disadvantage on attack rolls/certain ability checks. There's no way a full-size T-Rex can fit into a 10' x 10' space without an external force smashing it in extra-tight.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

If this supposition were true, you'd see two changes in the rules:
(1) Giants would be Gargantuan instead of Huge, and
(2) Huge creatures wouldn't be defined as requiring/controlling 15' x 15' of space, since some of them (like T-Rexes) wouldn't even fit inside of a space that small.
I'm talking about bipedal dinosaurs specifically, not giants. They have entirely different body shapes. It is internally consistent with the dinosaurs, though, such as with the velociraptor and the deinonychus.


Remember that a Huge creature can fit inside of a 10' x 10' space if it takes disadvantage on attack rolls/certain ability checks. There's no way a full-size T-Rex can fit into a 10' x 10' space without an external force smashing it in extra-tight.

I have no idea how flexible a T-Rex is, but I will concede that they probably couldn't attack at all in such a space, even if they wedged themselves in there.

[Gastronomie]

T-Rexes wouldn't have any problem with a width of 10', but their tails are created to balance their bodies on the front and back, and are probably not flexible enough to turn around 90 degress or more. Indeed, it would be impossible for them to fit in a 10'x10'x10' square unless they broke all their tail bones.

But then again, the same probably applies to a lot of Huge-sized monsters in the MM.

[Malifice]

Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.

[Gastronomie]

Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.I feel the urge to sig this, is it fine?

[Malifice]

I feel the urge to sig this, is it fine?

Be my guest :)

[MaxWilson]

T-Rexes wouldn't have any problem with a width of 10', but their tails are created to balance their bodies on the front and back, and are probably not flexible enough to turn around 90 degress or more. Indeed, it would be impossible for them to fit in a 10'x10'x10' square unless they broke all their tail bones.

But then again, the same probably applies to a lot of Huge-sized monsters in the MM.

Proof by contradiction. Those monsters aren't as big as you think they are. If they were, you'd have a contradiction in the rules.

[Finback]

While that is fairly long hair, I notice it's concentrated on the back and flanks. The legs are (comparatively) bare. A T.Rex may have had a similar set up; feathers only on its neck or head; areas exposed to sunlight.

I did also mention other uses of feathers: display purposes (the aforementioned T.Rex mane) and lift. The smaller dromeosaurs, like velociraptor, are thought to have been able to extend their jumps by flapping, something that a T.rex's small arms would have been unable to do.

There's even thought that baby dromaeosaurids may have even been capable of short flight; they were certainly well suited to climbing, when you factor in the sickle-claw, and the likelihood of wing-assisted incline running.

[Finback]

Yet they can interbreed. I suppose horses and donkeys (and lions and tigers) can as well and they're entirely different species.

Also; nice to see another West Aussie. You're up late!

Yeah, therein lies the whole fun of phylogeny and cladistics. Felines on the whole are *really* gene-fluid - look at ocicats, servocats, and all the other wild-domestic hybrids. Canines too - wolves and dogs, coyotes and dogs, dingos (place your bets on whether they're a species or a subspecies), *ugh*. And then try to figure out whether there are 17 species of _Triceratops_, when you can't see them age, or crossbreed them.

And, I probably haven't changed my location settings on this machine... I probably wasn't up that late!

[Finback]

Why always chicken, why not an eagle-croc.(Its not personal, sorry if it looks like that, I just see and hear this everywhere thus its annoying me) Birds of prey are also bad-ass and feather why not use them to base dinosaurs on. And if the non-flying part bothers you: secretary bird.

A lot of it comes from this weird meme from a few years back of, "The closest living thing to a T. rex is a chicken", with a lot of dubious claims about DNA - which are flatly wrong. ALL modern birds are closer to each other, than any of them is to any tyrannosauroid - hell, even _Velociraptor_ would be closer to a chicken, than T. rex. But somehow this notion got mainstream, and people seem to think there's this direct line from rex to Rhode Island Red, with other birds shooting off.

In the words of Mr. Gumby, "Oh, it makes me *mad*"

[TundraBuccaneer]

A lot of it comes from this weird meme from a few years back of, "The closest living thing to a T. rex is a chicken", with a lot of dubious claims about DNA - which are flatly wrong. ALL modern birds are closer to each other, than any of them is to any tyrannosauroid - hell, even _Velociraptor_ would be closer to a chicken, than T. rex. But somehow this notion got mainstream, and people seem to think there's this direct line from rex to Rhode Island Red, with other birds shooting off.

In the words of Mr. Gumby, "Oh, it makes me *mad*"

But the worst is that almost every documentary it says: its basically a chicken. And then ask them selves why don't people accept the 'new' perception of dinosaurs?
And yes it makes me mad too Mr.Grumpby, we could have people being exited about the terror bird++ but no, people want to be 'hilarious' and say look its like the dumbest bird ever.