Creation spell questions

[Dalebert]

How would you calculate the damage for dropping a 5 ft cube of granite on someone from a height of X?

Is it a typo that they seemed to skip non-precious metals from the list of durations? What duration would steel or copper be, for instance?

Last night my illusionist created a 5 ft cube of granite 30 ft over the head of a frost giant. She started with falling damage, i.e. 1d6 per 10 ft to the giant's head. I suggested boulder-throwing damage for a giant which I figured she had available conveniently in that moment. At first she said what's typical dmg for a 5th level spell and Cone of Cold came to mind, but then I made a point to warn her I could keep doing this in future combats without a new spell since I'm an illusionist--turn the block into a leather wrist strap after the combat. Turn it back into a block of granite later.

[JellyPooga]

DMG pg.249 Improvising Damage lists "falling rubble in a collapsing tunnel" as 4d10 damage. One block of stone? Less than that. That's assuming you hit (which I would not call guaranteed).

[Ninja_Prawn]

"falling rubble in a collapsing tunnel" as 4d10 damage.

The back of my envelope says 125 cu. ft. of granite weighs nearly 390 tonnes - as much as a 747 aircraft. 'Falling rubble' is perhaps a poor comparison, even if the drop is only a short distance. I'd allow as much damage as would be appropriate for an AoE spell of the same level.

Incidentally, my reading of Creation doesn't allow leather as a material, so you'd probably have to change it into a cotton strap (I'd have gone for a kerchief, but whatever). And you say you can use it again, but that assumes you are able to get the strap above someone's head in order to drop it. Mage Hand might solve that, but otherwise it would probably take enough effort to prevent it from being broken.

[JellyPooga]

The back of my envelope says 5 cu. ft. of granite weighs nearly 390 tonnes - as much as a 747 aircraft.

My envelope is telling me roughly 9 tonnes (10 US tons or 9 Imperial). That's based on an average density of about 170lb/ft3. Still pretty hefty, but nowhere near a 747!

Now you need to consider that Creation is not an attack spell and dropping an object, even a large heavy one, on someone has as much to do with luck as judgement if you're intending it to be an attack. Remember that the target isn't stationary, even though his miniature might be for the duration of your characters turn.

Falling rubble isn't a single object, so once you give a little and take a little, it should probably average out about the same. Of course, you could give the target a Dex Save to avoid or halve the damage, or even require an attack roll on the casters part, but if you just want to hand-wave it due to the circumstances (i.e. 5ft cube falling on 15x15ft creature), then around 4d10 seems about right, if not generous (it's roughly comparable to hitting the target with a siege weapon).

[Ninja_Prawn]

My envelope is telling me roughly 9 tonnes (10 US tons or 9 Imperial). That's based on an average density of about 170lb/ft3. Still pretty hefty, but nowhere near a 747!

Sorry, I meant 125 cu. ft. *hangs head* a 5-foot cube is 125 cubic feet. I don't know how the maths went wrong though. Probably when I converted it all to metric.

Ah, yes I see it now. I read kg instead of g and sent myself out by a factor of 1,000.

[Vogonjeltz]

Now you need to consider that Creation is not an attack spell and dropping an object, even a large heavy one, on someone has as much to do with luck as judgement if you're intending it to be an attack. Remember that the target isn't stationary, even though his miniature might be for the duration of your characters turn.

Creation also requires 1 minute to cast, making it beyond improbable that anyone would sit still for that.

[Dalebert]

Incidentally, my reading of Creation doesn't allow leather as a material...

I was going from memory and I think my brain substituted "organic matter" for "vegetable matter". I'll turn it into a wooden bracelet for convenience. I guess that addressed my other question about whether it was a typo that it can't create metals like steel or iron. It's either stone or crystal or drop the duration way down for metal and get the really strong ones. My plan is to try to stick to stone or crystal so it will last all day and I can keep changing it into different things as needed.


Creation also requires 1 minute to cast, making it beyond improbable that anyone would sit still for that.

I forgot that at the time but I can get around it because I'm an illusionist. I create a pebble and later use an action to turn it into the block of granite. I did it from a broom of flying over the giant.

[JellyPooga]

If this is to be something you're making regular use out of, you need to talk to your GM about introducing an attack roll or Save.

I'd personally make it an improvised thrown weapon, dealing something like 2d10 damage and with a range of 10/20...and I'd consider that generous. I might be persuaded to go as high as 3d10, but you'd need a silver tongue to raise it further.

It's a creative use of a spell and I applaud such creativity, but at the end of the day it's not an attack spell and any combat application of it should reflect that fact.

[RickAllison]

If this is to be something you're making regular use out of, you need to talk to your GM about introducing an attack roll or Save.

I'd personally make it an improvised thrown weapon, dealing something like 2d10 damage and with a range of 10/20...and I'd consider that generous. I might be persuaded to go as high as 3d10, but you'd need a silver tongue to raise it further.

It's a creative use of a spell and I applaud such creativity, but at the end of the day it's not an attack spell and any combat application of it should reflect that fact.

My thought is this is a perfect time to use the siege weapons from the DMG as inspiration. It has a very similar premise (multi-action attack, harder to control), so that seems like the best place to start.

[Vogonjeltz]

I forgot that at the time but I can get around it because I'm an illusionist. I create a pebble and later use an action to turn it into the block of granite. I did it from a broom of flying over the giant.

Interesting. You'd need flying I suppose (to get the pebble to the location 30 feet above the giant without using an attack roll, which would mean 2 actions needed), and I would have it as something like a DC 10 dexterity saving throw to avoid the block entirely.

Damage, I could see it going alot of ways, but I'd treat it similar to the rolling sphere trap (DMG 123) i.e. bludgeoning, probably around 5d10 (half that of the 10-foot-diameter rolling sphere trap))

That damage also fits in between falling rubble (4d10) and being crushed by walls (10d10) and it adheres to the spell creation guidelines in that the spell can do something other than damage so it's slightly less than a spell which only does damage.