Abilities and qualities? Wild shape

[Keral]

What is, if any, the different between a supernatural/extraordinary quality and a supernatural/estraordinary ability?


I know in the book they're labeled as (Ex) or (Su) next to the name, but how I distinguish abilities from qualities?

The only thing I could find is in a monster entry, but it's "special attacks" and "special qualities". Are the attacks supposed to be the abilities?


This all came out because the druid claims he gets extraordinary special qualities whilst wildshaping.
Then I pointed out:

The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.

Then he retracted by saying exalted wild shape allows him to. But then there it only mentions abilities...

And while we're partly on the topic. Exalted wile shape allows him to turn into a celestial version of regular animals. But celestial means +2 LA, so could he transform into a celestial version of a 9hd creature before level 11?

[Flickerdart]

The only thing I could find is in a monster entry, but it's "special attacks" and "special qualities". Are the attacks supposed to be the abilities?

Special qualities and special attacks are subsets of special abilities. The clause in Exalted Wild Shape is a specific rule that overrides the general rule about Wild Shape. When the druid wildshapes into a celestial animal, blink dog, giant eagle, giant owl, pegasus, or unicorn, he gains the special attacks and special qualities of that creature, as long as they are labelled Ex or Su.

If he transforms into, for example, a bear, he does not get the bear's scent ability, because it's a special quality and not a special attack. However, he would get it if he changed into a celestial bear.




Exalted wile shape allows him to turn into a celestial version of regular animals. But celestial means +2 LA, so could he transform into a celestial version of a 9hd creature before level 11?

LA and HD do not interact. He can become a 9HD Celestial creature just fine.

[Keral]

So he can become a celestial bloodstriker dinosaur and get all of his qualities?


Edit: also, exalted wild shape mentions something about cr3?

(At the DM's discretion, other magical beast forms might be available to you. In general, only creatures of CR 3 or lower are possible.)

where does this come in? whose cr is it, of the creature I'm applying the template?

[Flickerdart]

So he can become a celestial bloodstriker dinosaur and get all of his qualities?
Yes. However, the feat only nets him these abilities: caustic blood, low-light vision, spiked skin. He would already have blood squirt because it's an extraordinary special attack, which is granted by regular Wildshape.


So he can become a celestial bloodstriker dinosaur and get all of his qualities?


Edit: also, exalted wild shape mentions something about cr3?


where does this come in? whose cr is it, of the creature I'm applying the template?

This is advice to you, the DM. The feat is saying - these are just some exalted magical beasts we came up with, if you want to add more to this list, you can do so, but they should generally be CR3 or weaker.

The advice does not apply to the "wildshape into celestial creatures" part because it explicitly allows any legal base animal to be used.

[Darrin]

In the Spell Compendium there's a 4th level Druid spell called enhance wild shape. This can give him Extraordinary Qualities that are not normally granted with wild shape. That may be what the player was referring to.

[Keral]

Ah, I see.

It does seem a bit much to me, to tell the truth. Especially since he struts around with almost 40 AC, but well, so be it.

[Flickerdart]

Ah, I see.

It does seem a bit much to me, to tell the truth. Especially since he struts around with almost 40 AC, but well, so be it.

Welcome to tier 1 classes. If this is too much for your game's optimization level, consider talking to the player and asking him to tone it down - but only if his character is so strong that you cannot challenge him without making the other party members die.

[Keral]

That'll go over well.

Consider that without access to the companion he is able of killing the rest of the party. 4v1 :smallannoyed:

[John Longarrow]

For something interesting, take a look at the Skeletal dragon in Draconomicon page 192. While listed as a CR 7 in the book I'd treat it as at least a CR 9. This is the kind of monster that works really well against uber-AC opponents as it gets a LOT of attacks at a high bonus to hit. More important its a big bag of HPs that is pretty easy to hit, just not something a LVL 9 druid will be able to face off against alone.

you are hitting the point in game where straight up normal fights don't work well anymore and monsters need to have strange, special abilities to challenge the party. With proper play a skeletal dragon becomes an easy enemy to fight, so long as the party has an idea they may have to face it. Most parties will have what they need to avoid fighting it by this level, even if its only by flying around it.

[eggynack]

For something interesting, take a look at the Skeletal dragon in Draconomicon page 192. While listed as a CR 7 in the book I'd treat it as at least a CR 9. This is the kind of monster that works really well against uber-AC opponents as it gets a LOT of attacks at a high bonus to hit. More important its a big bag of HPs that is pretty easy to hit, just not something a LVL 9 druid will be able to face off against alone.
Seems like a pretty straightforward druid victory, to be honest, at either seven or nine. Assuming the dragon doesn't just get a kill in the first round of combat, which would be unlikely given its lack of ranged attack or pounce, the druid can easily take advantage of the dragon's lack of flight speed or, again, ranged attack, and fly completely out of range of anything the dragon can do, likely with some bat form. From there, actual victory can be achieved rather trivially through the use of spells, particularly SNA, as well as through the animal companion. All of this stuff is available fully independent of the druid's preparation decisions. I'm not sure why you'd think a druid would have any difficulty at all with this, given that you yourself noted that flight works incredibly well against the creature, and given also that druids are more than capable of outright winning from a distance.

[John Longarrow]

eggynack

SNA is about the worst spell to use against it. If you use less than a 3rd level slot you'll watch you summoned creature take off in fear. The rest are probably going to be shakened facing off against a melee brute. They may do a little damage before it destroys them, but far less than the druid themselves going toe to toe with a 22hd undead. Plus if the druid is tossing those they are not attacking it themselves.

Skeletal dragon also has decent SR for its CR, something that can really tip the fight if the druid doesn't plan for it.

Now if the party has a couple decent ranged combatants it is easier to deal with. DR 5/bludgeoning will slow down ranged attacks, but its low AC makes it an easy target. This would be a fight where a smart party flies and keeps out of melee range, raining down projectiles till it can't move.

[eggynack]

SNA is about the worst spell to use against it. If you use less than a 3rd level slot you'll watch you summoned creature take off in fear.
First, you could just use a slot that's not less than 3rd level. and, second, a ring of the beast knocks the ineffective SNA level down to first.



The rest are probably going to be shakened facing off against a melee brute. They may do a little damage before it destroys them, but far less than the druid themselves going toe to toe with a 22hd undead. Plus if the druid is tossing those they are not attacking it themselves.
I just don't think you want to be attacking things yourself much anyway. Evasion is easy, so you don't have to be doing a ton of damage. To my mind, this druid versus dragon solo deal has a good chance of leading to the dragon's death, and about zero chance of leading to the druid's death. Shaken doesn't even really do anything here, given the dragon's low AC.


Skeletal dragon also has decent SR for its CR, something that can really tip the fight if the druid doesn't plan for it.
Again, kinda assuming that a lot of higher level slots are going to SNA here. The low level slots are probably going to more buffing and utility oriented stuff. Mass snake's swiftness could help a lot. There's not much cause to target the dragon, realistically. You're essentially invulnerable, so the goal is simply to deal as much damage through the medium of your slots as is possible. It's problematic if you happen to have a lot of blasting spells, because then you're losing that damage advantage, but that kinda loadout is one I'd have to think is pretty uncommon, and druids have a decent amount of SR: no and damage over time anyway.


Now if the party has a couple decent ranged combatants it is easier to deal with. DR 5/bludgeoning will slow down ranged attacks, but its low AC makes it an easy target. This would be a fight where a smart party flies and keeps out of melee range, raining down projectiles till it can't move.
A druid can act quite a bit like a ranged combatant, is basically my point.