Best spells for a Heavy Warrior/Sorcerer character?

[Carlos Barreto]

Greetings.

I'm currently playing a level 9 character (Fighter 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer (Favored Soul) 6). I started playing this character from level 1 as a Fighter, picked the next 6 levels as a Sorcerer (in order to have Extra Attack ASAP, at level 7) and finally I picked 2 levels as Paladin (Divine Smite was the goal, although a second Fighting Style is nice). So I can tell you for sure that while it has it's flaws (delayed ASIs/Feat and spell progression), it's a fully functional build right out of level 1, not a non-sense, theorycraft build. The flaws are reasonably compensated with it's features and a little bit of patience. The secret lies not only at the right timing of the multiclass, but also choosing the right spell.

Character Concept: My goal is to be a heavy hitter at melee combat and a blaster cannon with combat-oriented spells and some few out-of-combat utility spells. It's like a mix between Eldritch Knight Fighter and Bladesinger Wizard: Unlike Eldritch Knight, it's a full caster with 9th level spells. Unlike Bladesinger, it can use heavy weapons (because Great Weapon Master feat plays an important role in this build) and heavy armor. And unlike both, it can make two attacks and cast a full spell at the same turn, thanks to Quickened Spell metamagic. The only drawback is that the Sorcerer spell list is shorter than the Wizard spell list, but nothing is perfect.

At ranged combat, I go spartan style, throwing Javelins as any good heavy warriors, but only if the enemy is within 30 feet of distance. Otherwise, I use Firebolt.

Concentration Spells: My DM allowed me to use the Spell Point system instead of the standard Spell Slot system for my Sorcerer (as I think it should be from default), so running out of spell slots for a specific spell level is not an issue. I really love Haste, but my main combat concentration spell of choice is Blur. Plate armor + Blur + Shield really bolster my defense, compensating the low Sorcerer's hit die (although I have been using False Life to raise my effective HP to the Fighter level, but I'm rarely injured by physical attacks, even if I fight side-by-side with the Fighter and the Barbarian).

At Sorcerer 7, I'll exchange Blur to Greater Invisibility. Our DM uses the optional flunking rules, which undermines the Greater Invisibility to some degree, but Greater Invisibility makes you immune to Opportunity Attacks, so while invisibile, I can come close, make all my attacks and move away from melee combat, reducing the odds of being attacked. All that with advantage and no need to worry about to be in the right spot.

Optional rules in use: Spell Points (for Sorcerers), Flanking, Epic Heroism (faster short/long rests).

So these are my spells of choice:

Cantrips: 1) Firebolt; 2) Green-Flame Blade; 3) Mage Hand; 4) Prestidigitation; 5) Minor Illusion; 6) ?
1 - Shield; Sleep
2 - Burning Hands
3 - Blur; Burning Hands -> Shatter
4 - False Life; Sleep - > Disguise Self
5 - Lightning Bolt; Shatter -> Fireball
6 - Counterspell *** This is my current Sorcerer level ***

So my sketch for possible future spells would be...

7 - Misty Step; Blur -> Greater Invisibility
8 - Banishment (Is that worthy? I'm not so sure)
9 - Cone of Cold
10 - ?
11 - Disintegrate; Banishment -> Chain Lightning
13 - Circle of Death (Not so sure)
14 - ?
15 - ?
17 - Wish; Circle of Death ->Meteor Swarm (Obs.: I want to have 2 level 9 spells here, so I'll trade one of my previous spells for a second level 9 spell).

As you can see, there are some gaps (including one cantrip) and some dubious spells. I would like to see some suggestions to make this character better at what he does: To slay his enemies with his trusty Greatsword and to blast hordes with his eltritch might.

[Laserlight]

First off, take a look at Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377491). Two thirds down the page, you'll find the spell ratings.

Cantrips: depending on your party, you may want Light. If not, you might want Booming Blade for OAs and control.

Other spells: you can do a reasonable amount of damage by hitting things with an axe, and you can do that all day long. Conversely, sorcery points and spell slots are a limited resource, which implies that you don't want to use them for tasks that you can also accomplish with an axe. Look at Hold Person, Fly, Suggestion, Web, Animate Objects. Mass Suggestion. And let's not forget that Polymorph can turn you into a T Rex--and who doesn't want to be a T Rex?

[Gastronomie]

As aforementioned, my guide has everything I personality think about Sorcadin spells. However, it really does depend on your Metamagic options (rather, you should choose your Metamagic options based on the jobs you wish to fill).

I am personally iffy about taking too many damage spells as a Sorcadin, since they're already super good at it. But that's personal preference.

[cZak]

Spell points are great. Our DM allowed, and it's much more versatile
My sorcadin uses spells to augment his martial abilities

Cantrips Message, Firebolt, GFB, Minor illusion n Frostbolt Wish I'd picked Booming blade...
1 Shield, Burnimg hands
2 Blur, Dust devil
3 Haste, Fly, Melf's meteors

Paladin spell selections are for opportunity
Bless, Cure, Shield o faith, Prot f good/evil, Smites

I went Fey for sorcerer & OoA f paladin. Very thematic Fey knight

The Bend luck is like a mini Lucky feat, or Bless, as a class feature

I went full plate S&B Defense style.
Warcaster was first feat. Prob Shield master f next. It'll synergize well w the other PC's Sentinal n GWM

[Specter]

No need to carry both Lightning Bolt and Fireball. Pick your favorite and get Haste too.

I'd also recommend War Caster if you can spare a feat, never dropping concentration and op. attacks with Booming Blade are sweet.

[Citan]

No need to carry both Lightning Bolt and Fireball. Pick your favorite and get Haste too.

I'd also recommend War Caster if you can spare a feat, never dropping concentration and op. attacks with Booming Blade are sweet.
Hi all ;)
I disagree on that. Especially for someone who wants to feel like a Warmage, getting AOE versatility both in terms of damage type and shape are great.
Lightning Bolt has its own chance to shine in any tightely-shaped place, such as a corridor. It's even better on OP's character since this one can actually be the frontliner, so you could for example block a passage and occasionally let a Lightning Bolt when/if enemies are stupid enough to line themselves nicely. ^^

Back to OP: if your only focus is direct damaging spells, why not pick Ice Storm, at least before you are high enough level to get Cone of Cold? It's a great opener (thanks to distance) and can also help you pace the moment you clash (because creating difficult terrain).

Otherwise, id you have access to EE (which I suppose so, considering you use UA which is admittedly more far-strechted) I'd suggest...
- Erupting Earth: Dexterity-based, but bludgeoning + difficult terrain.
- Melf's Minute Meteors: probably not the best spell, but decent damage over time, scales nicely, and very thematic for your character imo. ;)
- Storm Sphere: the other very thematic spell that uses your concentration and bonus action, but provides decent damage over time. Along with "difficult terrain" thing so you can use it tactically in some situations.

- Investiture of X: all are great choice to have for a Warmage.
Ice: can be totally fun paired with shoving, helps you make people stick to you. + action for mini Cone of Cold.
Earth: action for AOE prone, and can move across earth related difficult terrain. Nice paired with Erupting Earth.
Wind: probably my personal choice, because protection against ranged attacks and great mobility.
Fire: automatic "retaliation" for melee attackers + mini Scorcher.

Have fun!

[Lawful Good]

snip
I want to have 2 level 9 spells here, so I'll trade one of my previous spells for a second level 9 spell).

AFB at the moment, but logically, you only have one level 9 slot and wish replicates all other spells, so you only need wish as your 9th spell. Correct me if I missed sonething, though.

[djreynolds]

Greetings.

I'm currently playing a level 9 character (Fighter 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer (Favored Soul) 6). I started playing this character from level 1 as a Fighter, picked the next 6 levels as a Sorcerer (in order to have Extra Attack ASAP, at level 7) and finally I picked 2 levels as Paladin (Divine Smite was the goal, although a second Fighting Style is nice). So I can tell you for sure that while it has it's flaws (delayed ASIs/Feat and spell progression), it's a fully functional build right out of level 1, not a non-sense, theorycraft build. The flaws are reasonably compensated with it's features and a little bit of patience. The secret lies not only at the right timing of the multiclass, but also choosing the right spell.

Character Concept: My goal is to be a heavy hitter at melee combat and a blaster cannon with combat-oriented spells and some few out-of-combat utility spells. It's like a mix between Eldritch Knight Fighter and Bladesinger Wizard: Unlike Eldritch Knight, it's a full caster with 9th level spells. Unlike Bladesinger, it can use heavy weapons (because Great Weapon Master feat plays an important role in this build) and heavy armor. And unlike both, it can make two attacks and cast a full spell at the same turn, thanks to Quickened Spell metamagic. The only drawback is that the Sorcerer spell list is shorter than the Wizard spell list, but nothing is perfect.

At ranged combat, I go spartan style, throwing Javelins as any good heavy warriors, but only if the enemy is within 30 feet of distance. Otherwise, I use Firebolt.

Concentration Spells: My DM allowed me to use the Spell Point system instead of the standard Spell Slot system for my Sorcerer (as I think it should be from default), so running out of spell slots for a specific spell level is not an issue. I really love Haste, but my main combat concentration spell of choice is Blur. Plate armor + Blur + Shield really bolster my defense, compensating the low Sorcerer's hit die (although I have been using False Life to raise my effective HP to the Fighter level, but I'm rarely injured by physical attacks, even if I fight side-by-side with the Fighter and the Barbarian).

At Sorcerer 7, I'll exchange Blur to Greater Invisibility. Our DM uses the optional flunking rules, which undermines the Greater Invisibility to some degree, but Greater Invisibility makes you immune to Opportunity Attacks, so while invisibile, I can come close, make all my attacks and move away from melee combat, reducing the odds of being attacked. All that with advantage and no need to worry about to be in the right spot.

Optional rules in use: Spell Points (for Sorcerers), Flanking, Epic Heroism (faster short/long rests).

So these are my spells of choice:

Cantrips: 1) Firebolt; 2) Green-Flame Blade; 3) Mage Hand; 4) Prestidigitation; 5) Minor Illusion; 6) ?
1 - Shield; Sleep
2 - Burning Hands
3 - Blur; Burning Hands -> Shatter
4 - False Life; Sleep - > Disguise Self
5 - Lightning Bolt; Shatter -> Fireball
6 - Counterspell *** This is my current Sorcerer level ***

So my sketch for possible future spells would be...

7 - Misty Step; Blur -> Greater Invisibility
8 - Banishment (Is that worthy? I'm not so sure)
9 - Cone of Cold
10 - ?
11 - Disintegrate; Banishment -> Chain Lightning
13 - Circle of Death (Not so sure)
14 - ?
15 - ?
17 - Wish; Circle of Death ->Meteor Swarm (Obs.: I want to have 2 level 9 spells here, so I'll trade one of my previous spells for a second level 9 spell).

As you can see, there are some gaps (including one cantrip) and some dubious spells. I would like to see some suggestions to make this character better at what he does: To slay his enemies with his trusty Greatsword and to blast hordes with his eltritch might.

I think these choices are perfect. I like how most of the spells emanate from you. Awesome concept

AFB, and I might not know wizard from sorcerer spells

I like shocking grasp, too good lose reaction not just damage
Hypnotic wave, is okay for resistant types
I like mirror image, no concentration
Protection from evil, we'll you have it from paladin
Misty step is sweet
as is feather fall or fly or levitate (magic items can give you this)
Otherwise the build is great

[Sicarius Victis]

AFB at the moment, but logically, you only have one level 9 slot and wish replicates all other spells, so you only need wish as your 9th spell. Correct me if I missed sonething, though.

Sorcerers can have up to 2 9th-level spells at 17th level. They learn a new spell at that level, and they can trade an older one for a new 9th-level as well.

Also, Wish only replicates spells of 8th-level or lower.

[Carlos Barreto]

Cantrips: depending on your party, you may want Light. If not, you might want Booming Blade for OAs and control.

That's a good option. However, I was considering to have a second long-range cantrip, just in case a given enemy is immune/resistant to fire.

Long range attacks are uncommon, but they do happen sometimes. If range < 30, I throw a Javelin just like any other Str-based melee character. Otherwise, Firebolt.


Other spells: you can do a reasonable amount of damage by hitting things with an axe, and you can do that all day long. Conversely, sorcery points and spell slots are a limited resource, which implies that you don't want to use them for tasks that you can also accomplish with an axe. Look at Hold Person, Fly, Suggestion, Web, Animate Objects. Mass Suggestion. And let's not forget that Polymorph can turn you into a T Rex--and who doesn't want to be a T Rex?

I preffer a Greatsword, which is by now an awesome Dragonslayer. :smallbiggrin:


I'm trying to avoid Concentration spells because I make extensive use of Greater Invisibility, but I think that Hold Person/Monster is a spell worthy to consider since my character can Smite.
Fly is a great spell. But Favored Soul Sorcerers has wings at level 14, Additionally, my character owns a pair of Flying Boots, so he can fly for a bit. That said, I think I really don't need that spell.
Web and Animate Objects are good spells, but they requires concentration. Suggestion requires concentration as well, but might have uses outside combat. I'm not really convinced that I want that spell, so I might take it if I don't have any other spell options left to pick.
Mass Suggestion seems to be a worthy choice. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll search and consider this spell.
Polymorth: The party's Wizard has Polymorth and was willing to use it on me, but I refused. After all, the whole purpose of my character is to be the knight in a shining armor, swinging his Greatsword and slinging spells. Being the party's T. Rex is a role best played by our Barbarian.



As aforementioned, my guide has everything I personality think about Sorcadin spells. However, it really does depend on your Metamagic options (rather, you should choose your Metamagic options based on the jobs you wish to fill).

I am personally iffy about taking too many damage spells as a Sorcadin, since they're already super good at it. But that's personal preference.

My most beloved Metamagic options are Quickened Spell and Empowered Spell.
Quickened Spell is self-explanatory and specially powerfull for a character who can make 2 attacks with Great Weapon Master instead of just using a cantrip. Empowered Spell is awesome because it can be combined with other Metamagic options (like quickened) and helps to fulfill my blaster role.

(2d6+14)x2 + Fireball/Lightning Bolt. I love it.


No need to carry both Lightning Bolt and Fireball. Pick your favorite and get Haste too.

I'd also recommend War Caster if you can spare a feat, never dropping concentration and op. attacks with Booming Blade are sweet.

My experience shows me that I use Fireball more often than Lightning Bolt, but as Citan has mentioned, it's great to have different shapes/elements for my AOE spells. There're moments where a Lightning Bolt is better than a Fireball. And I also enjoy to be able to shoot a lightning from my hands. :smalltongue:

I love Haste. But since it requires concentration, I will use Greater invisibility/Protection from Good and Evil to boost my defensiveness/offensiveness.

I would love to have the opportuinity to take War Caster, but I don't have free space for that. Fortunatelly, I started as a Fighter, so Constitution proficiency helps with the concentration checks.


Hi all ;)
I disagree on that. Especially for someone who wants to feel like a Warmage, getting AOE versatility both in terms of damage type and shape are great.
Lightning Bolt has its own chance to shine in any tightely-shaped place, such as a corridor. It's even better on OP's character since this one can actually be the frontliner, so you could for example block a passage and occasionally let a Lightning Bolt when/if enemies are stupid enough to line themselves nicely. ^^

Back to OP: if your only focus is direct damaging spells, why not pick Ice Storm, at least before you are high enough level to get Cone of Cold? It's a great opener (thanks to distance) and can also help you pace the moment you clash (because creating difficult terrain).

Otherwise, id you have access to EE (which I suppose so, considering you use UA which is admittedly more far-strechted) I'd suggest...
- Erupting Earth: Dexterity-based, but bludgeoning + difficult terrain.
- Melf's Minute Meteors: probably not the best spell, but decent damage over time, scales nicely, and very thematic for your character imo. ;)
- Storm Sphere: the other very thematic spell that uses your concentration and bonus action, but provides decent damage over time. Along with "difficult terrain" thing so you can use it tactically in some situations.

- Investiture of X: all are great choice to have for a Warmage.
Ice: can be totally fun paired with shoving, helps you make people stick to you. + action for mini Cone of Cold.
Earth: action for AOE prone, and can move across earth related difficult terrain. Nice paired with Erupting Earth.
Wind: probably my personal choice, because protection against ranged attacks and great mobility.
Fire: automatic "retaliation" for melee attackers + mini Scorcher.

Hi!

Indeed I can really play a frontliner, despite some people have said in the past that a Sorcerer would suck at that spot. But Full Plate + right spells has proved them wrong.


Ice Storm: I really like the idea of the spell, but I think it is unimpressive. The damage seems to be low and the difficult terrain would bother my allies as well, specially since they usually act first. Am I missing something?
Erupting Earth: The same problems as the Ice Storm, but with an even worse damage.
Melf's Minute Meteors, Storm Sphere and Investiture spells: Indeed it's very thematic for my character and I would really love to use them. The only problem is that they require concentration, which I use for Greater Invisibility; that spell plays a quintessential role in my character's melee fighting ability.




AFB at the moment, but logically, you only have one level 9 slot and wish replicates all other spells, so you only need wish as your 9th spell. Correct me if I missed sonething, though.

Wish replicate spells up to level 8.
So even if the character has a single level 9 spell slot, I can still use a non-Wish spell with that slot, like a powerful Meteor Swarm.


I think these choices are perfect. I like how most of the spells emanate from you. Awesome concept

AFB, and I might not know wizard from sorcerer spells

I like shocking grasp, too good lose reaction not just damage
Hypnotic wave, is okay for resistant types
I like mirror image, no concentration
Protection from evil, we'll you have it from paladin
Misty step is sweet
as is feather fall or fly or levitate (magic items can give you this)
Otherwise the build is great


Shocking Grasp is a good cantrip, but I don't think it's that good for a melee gish.
Hypnotic Wave? What spell is that?
Mirror Image doesn't require concentration, which is great. But I think it's a waste when you have a high AC (as I do), since many attacks will destroy the illusions even if they wouldn't beat your AC.
Yes, Misty Step is sweet. I picked it.
Yes, Paladin's Protection from Evil and Good is a great level 1 spell. It's a specialized and better form of Blur (lower spell slot level with additional effects). I picked that spell and I already used it for good.
Finally, I have Winged Boots, so Feather Fall, Fly or Levitate are not necessary.

[Citan]

My most beloved Metamagic options are Quickened Spell and Empowered Spell.
Quickened Spell is self-explanatory and specially powerfull for a character who can make 2 attacks with Great Weapon Master instead of just using a cantrip. Empowered Spell is awesome because it can be combined with other Metamagic options (like quickened) and helps to fulfill my blaster role.


Ice Storm: I really like the idea of the spell, but I think it is unimpressive. The damage seems to be low and the difficult terrain would bother my allies as well, specially since they usually act first. Am I missing something?
Erupting Earth: The same problems as the Ice Storm, but with an even worse damage.
Melf's Minute Meteors, Storm Sphere and Investiture spells: Indeed it's very thematic for my character and I would really love to use them. The only problem is that they require concentration, which I use for Greater Invisibility; that spell plays a quintessential role in my character's melee fighting ability.



Shocking Grasp is a good cantrip, but I don't think it's that good for a melee gish.
Hypnotic Wave? What spell is that?
Mirror Image doesn't require concentration, which is great. But I think it's a waste when you have a high AC (as I do), since many attacks will destroy the illusions even if they wouldn't beat your AC.
Yes, Misty Step is sweet. I picked it.
Yes, Paladin's Protection from Evil and Good is a great level 1 spell. It's a specialized and better form of Blur (lower spell slot level with additional effects). I picked that spell and I already used it for good.
Finally, I have Winged Boots, so Feather Fall, Fly or Levitate are not necessary.

Hi again! Some counterpoints. ;)

Ice Storm / Earth Tremor: well, these are actually very good spells when the context is right... For example, in a plain encounter and several archers on your side, Ice Storm helps by limiting retreat possibilities of exposed enemies. If you want to instead run away from a fight, both are nice because they damage pursuers and hamper movement of those who survive.

Also, Ice Storm has lesser damage than a Fireball, but double range. Earth Tremor makes enemies prone so insta advantage for melee friends.

But you bring up good points about your own context party-wise: if indeed you have several frontliners with you and they can't bypass difficult terrain nor use other means to get to enemies (jump/fly/pull enemies to them etc), these are not the most suited for you. Not that they wouldn't be useful. But they would require some coordination and tactical thinking, up to a degree that would be too much for your taste. ;)

Greater Invisibility / vs others: well, no argue there. For when you wade in melee, you picked the best spell available at 4th level. I would argue that each Investiture spell brings significant benefits to a melee fighter though, but it's a matter of taste first. It's perfectly comprehensible if you prefer keeping your 6th slot for something else.
I would suggest a second thought on Storm Sphere though: there will probably be fights in which you actually prefer staying "middle line", as this mix between damage and terrain control can be useful then. But indeed, it should not be a priority on your spelllist either.

Shocking Grasp: it is actually one of the greatest cantrips available to casters in general: melee, provides free disengage, make it a great choice for casters that either a) don't rely on weapons usually or b) want to wield a shield or c) don't get weapon attack related features. Even with the shadow of weapon cantrips, it still has many uses, because it keeps one hand free for casting.
However, since you are a) actually relying on weapon attacks b) always can free a hand for casting thanks to (strange imo, but it's irrelevant) official ruling, c) having extra attack, and d) going as far as taking GWM...
It would be indeed useless 90% of the time for you.

Mirror Image: I agree that this is not a spell for you, but not for the same reason. Even on a 18 AC character, Mirror Image can be a must-have. The real blocker is your DEX. Since Images have 10+Dex modifier, casting it has any meaning only when you have at least 16 DEX. Then it becomes good with 20 DEX, then great when paired with effect imposing disadvantage on attacker because of vision (such as Darkness. Not sure about about Greater Invisibility though, since imo the images themselves would be visible, so no reason to impose disadvantage).