He is my champion fix, I hope you like it.

[djreynolds]

What I want to make is a fix not to the fighter class but the champion with what is there?

I feel the champion needs to be defined by his constitution. He/she has trained rigorously for long hours and it built for attrition.

Change 1.

The are no more improved critical hits at 3rd or 15th levels

At 3rd your action surge now lasts as many rounds as your constitution modifier halved and rounded an up edit #1

So with a 20 in con, when you action surge it would last 3 rounds, and you would have 2 uses at 17th level per short rest.


Change 2

Fight or Flight

At 6th level when you are under the affect of fear and have not used your action surge, you may use it to attack the source or run away.

If you attack the source and breaks it concentration, you are no longer afraid of this source... ever. If you fail, you are now paralyzed with fear. You may still make saves on your turn.

If you run away, you may only use your action surge to dash and take the dodge action.


Change 3

Remarkable athlete, a champion receives at 7th level a half proficiency boost to all strength, dexterity, constitution based skills in addition to any proficiency they may already have with those skills. Sort of 3/4 expertise

So a champion at 7th level would get
+5 with a strength/dex of 20,
+3 for proficiency in athletics/acrobatics,
+2 for remarkable athlete bonus which is half of +3 rounded up
+10, instead of the normal +8, but still behind the rogue/bard with +11

At 17th level, the champion with a 20 in strength/dex and proficiency in athletics/acrobatics
+14 in athletics/acrobatics,
still behind the rogue/bard with a 20 strength/dex, with +17
but higher than another class with +11.

You do not gain additional benefits of expertise if you multiclass.

Also this affects his dex, str, or con saves. You add half proficiency to all of your dex, con, or strength saves in addition to proficiency if you have in it and the ability modifier.

Change 4

At 15th level when you action surge you get these benefits.

You add your constitution modifier to your AC versus AoO and to all dexterity saves involving spells and ranged attacks

[Sirdar]

Change 3

The are no more improved critical hits at 3rd or 15th levels

At 3rd your action surge now lasts as many rounds as your constitution modifier.

So with a 20 in con, when you action surge it would last 5 rounds, and you would have 2 uses at 17th level per short rest.



The changes you suggest are quite many and requires a proper analysis. It is always interesting to see a new version (or fix) of a sub-class that many people consider a bit lackluster. I will sure follow this post with interest. On the spot, I think the action surge improvement is too good. I can't see any other martial class coming close to the at-will damage you can do with this prolonged action surge.

[djreynolds]

The changes you suggest are quite many and requires a proper analysis. It is always interesting to see a new version (or fix) of a sub-class that many people consider a bit lackluster. I will sure follow this post with interest. On the spot, I think the action surge improvement is too good. I can't see any other martial class coming close to the at-will damage you can do with this prolonged action surge.

That's a good point.

I'm looking for an ability that says champion, and since he can be dex based or strength, I thought feats of endurance and constitution would go together.

The barbarian has rage, paladin has his Oath,... I just don't know what a champion is.

Perhaps it is his endurance that keeps him going?

[Lalliman]

I quite like the change to Remarkable Athlete.

The prolonged Action Surge is definitely too powerful. A high-level champion will be able to make six greatsword attacks per round for probably the entire combat encounter. The loss of Improved Critical doesn't do enough to make up for how powerful this is, I don't think. Maybe turn the duration into half your Con, rounded up.

The extra Action Surge benefits at 15th seem random. It's not enough to encourage the Champion to meaningfully invest in mental stats. Plus, I feel like if any class can afford not to care about mental stats, it would be the Champion. They are the embodiment of pure physical might and skill. These mental-based abilities seem more fitting for the Battle Master.

Edit: You put this in the wrong subforum by the way. Should've been here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design).

[Arkhios]

That's a good point.

I'm looking for an ability that says champion, and since he can be dex based or strength, I thought feats of endurance and constitution would go together.

The barbarian has rage, paladin has his Oath,... I just don't know what a champion is.

Perhaps it is his endurance that keeps him going?

While personally I don't have a problem with Champion as is, I appreciate the effort if it's for houserule purposes. After all, I've done some houserules to some classes as well.

What about granting the uses of Action Surge and Second Wind another effect that plays out feats of endurance (the will and capability to push on at the risk of peril).

Maybe something like this:

When you use Action Surge you regain an expended use of Second Wind. If you have not used your Second Wind, you instead gain temporary hit points equal to the amount of hit points you could regain with Second Wind. When you use Second Wind, you regain an expended use of Action Surge. If you have not used your Action Surge, you instead may make an attack as a part of your use of Second Wind.

[Sirdar]

While personally I don't have a problem with Champion as is, I appreciate the effort if it's for houserule purposes. After all, I've done some houserules to some classes as well.

What about granting the uses of Action Surge and Second Wind another effect that plays out feats of endurance (the will and capability to push on at the risk of peril).

Maybe something like this:

When you use Action Surge you regain an expended use of Second Wind. If you have not used your Second Wind, you instead gain temporary hit points equal to the amount of hit points you could regain with Second Wind. When you use Second Wind, you regain an expended use of Action Surge. If you have not used your Action Surge, you instead may make an attack as a part of your use of Second Wind.

That would lead to an infinite amount of action surges. Action surge first then use second wind to regain the action surge. Repeat every round (but now you also regain the second wind when action surging).

[Arkhios]

That would lead to an infinite amount of action surges. Action surge first then use second wind to regain the action surge. Repeat every round (but now you also regain the second wind when action surging).

Hmm. Yes. Maybe you could benefit from these once each before a short rest.

But like I said, "something like this" ... Not exactly like them, obviously for a good reason.

[djreynolds]

I'm not a fan of critical hits, and actually I find the battlemaster would be better served with critical hit advantage. They actually go together better.

I just want to tie in survivor with the other features.

I see the champion as the guy who goes all day, and his power is represented by his constitution modifier.

I like how paladins are immune to fear, but perhaps the fighter could harness his fear. When subject to fear the fighter can get a bonus action surge to attack the source of it, "fight or flight, or dash twice. But if cannot destroy the target or its concentration or get far enough away he is stunned. Like a "fog of war" or "shell shocked"

I want some flavor to the champion. CHAMPION should seem indomitable and uses his endurance from years of training to get push himself out of situations. I get that is where the critical hit comes in, but to me critical hits are more akin to wisdom and precision.

I would like to re-flavor the weapon master feat, so that any martial class who takes it... could get the improved critical hit that way. You get 4 weapons 1 heavy, 1 versatile, 1 ranged, 1 simple... you could get these crit bonuses to.

I just wanted some feed back before I sent this homebrew

[Coffee_Dragon]

3 or you can add deduct your charisma to from damage in addition to str or dex... you like to show off

Fixt?? (The twist: every fighter dumps Cha to insane negative levels, so when they try to be flamboyant, they fail and it becomes extra efficient.)

[djreynolds]

Fixt?? (The twist: every fighter dumps Cha to insane negative levels, so when they try to be flamboyant, they fail and it becomes extra efficient.)

This actually pretty cool, like an Achilles Heal.

[djreynolds]

Sorry for the double post.

Some new changes. Just looking for fun insight, perhaps this will be just a separate archetype instead.

I'm looking for like, "only the prepared are lucky".

Looking to post this in the homebrew section, but just want some good criticism.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Note that if you care about strict mechanical validity, you need to reword the "3/4 expertise" ability. It wouldn't work as it is because you can only add your proficiency bonus once, halved or not. This also means it's redundant to point out it doesn't stack with regular expertise. (Note that Expertise works because it doubles your effective proficiency bonus, not by adding it another time.)

[Arkhios]

Note that if you care about strict mechanical validity, you need to reword the "3/4 expertise" ability. It wouldn't work as it is because you can only add your proficiency bonus once, halved or not. This also means it's redundant to point out it doesn't stack with regular expertise. (Note that Expertise works because it doubles your effective proficiency bonus, not by adding it another time.)

"... add a bonus equal to half your proficiency bonus..." vs. "... add half your proficiency bonus..."

Problem solved :)

[Yakk]

Thoughts: Half your constitution modifier seems cludgy. It means 16 con means 2 rounds, 20 means 3 rounds, and is otherwise math for nothing.

Needs more second wind features. Maybe let you roll up to con bonus HD as well? Have it grant an equal number of temporary HP?

The half proficiency boost at 7th level works out to ... +2, increasing to +3 at some level. Seems overly complex for such a simple result.

[Tanarii]

The champion isn't broken.

[djreynolds]

The champion isn't broken.

I always respect your insight.

But I'm sorry its boring. And its not because of passive abilities, or nova... The class lacks identity.

Just call the archetype, man-at-arms... but a champion.

The fighter chassis is good, because you have 3 ability increases by 8 level and focus on hitting stuff and hit points... but crits in 5E are lame.

Maybe just say the champion at 15th level always lands max damage when he crits.

I just want to add some flavor to it.

Its the one class we all could be if we took a roller coaster ride and ended up in the Realm Of D&D

[Hawkstar]

I my idea for a fix would be to focus on acquiring Extra Combat Styles, and have Improved Combat Styles as well, replacing the Critical Hit bonuses (And making them a combat style as well). Oh... and Remarkable Athlete absolutely should stack with Proficiency.

[djreynolds]

See that's good.

I like that. Thank you

I want my players to say, "Yeah I'd play 20 levels in this."

I think that's how you judge any class.

[Arkhios]

The champion isn't broken.


I always respect your insight.

But I'm sorry its boring. And its not because of passive abilities, or nova... The class lacks identity.

Just call the archetype, man-at-arms... but a champion.

The fighter chassis is good, because you have 3 ability increases by 8 level and focus on hitting stuff and hit points... but crits in 5E are lame.

Maybe just say the champion at 15th level always lands max damage when he crits.

I just want to add some flavor to it.

Its the one class we all could be if we took a roller coaster ride and ended up in the Realm Of D&D

Agreed on both accounts. Champion is fine, but I can see that it's slightly unimpressive as is.

[Tanarii]

I always respect your insight.

But I'm sorry its boring.

<snip>

I just want to add some flavor to it. Yes, and fair enough that's how you feel about it. But that's not the same thing as broken. I'm just objecting to you characterizing your house-rules for making something you find boring and lacking flavor as a 'fix'. It's not broken, so this isn't a fix. Calling it that is going to draw people (like me) who will object that it's not broken, instead of discussing the merits and balancing of your house-rules.

As to the merits of your proposed house-rules, I like the Remarkable Athlete one. Personally I'd bump Remarkable athlete in its current form down to third level, because crit, while powerful, just feels like such a small gain compared to BM/EK. And then have it scale up to stack with skills (your version) at level 7. That does introduce some problems with multiclass dips being more attractive though.

[djreynolds]

I played one without feats. By 12th level I had maxed out strength and con, and I took archery at 10th. And then from there just tried to max out dexterity. The game ended at 15th. But I was pretty good with a greatsword and longbow.

You can be creative, and hit with a sword, and then give up the second attack to shove, and then strike again. I did some cool jumps.

Perhaps something that could incorporate multiple fighting styles. If you had TWF and took protection, you could use your offhand weapon on a reaction instead of a shield to protect your buddy.

If you took say GWS and archery, you could reroll 1s and 2s with a longbow or heavy crossbow as well.

Many of the classes really don't need feats, but a fighter does because there isn't much there otherwise.

[Markoff Chainey]

My opinion about the champion as it is: Its a mediocre strong class, built for attrition and lacking of interesting unique abilities.

Your suggestion is not solving the problem that it lacks interesting features - enhancing its strength is not necessary (IMO) and the abilities you suggest are very strong but not really unique and with the focus an attrition, it is made to be "boring". (Some people don't mind, though.)

That said, the lvl 3 ability is way OP, especially for sorcerers and other classes with a high CON and good nova abilities. It's like an advanced rage..

[Tanarii]

Not only do some people not mind it's boring and lacks resource management options, that's what they want out of a fighter.

The Champion is specifically designed for a subset of people that want to keep resource management decisions down to an absolute minimum. As is the Thief, although in that case there are more intensive tactical decisions to be made both in and out of combat. In that regard, they're both designed to emulate the original D&D Fighter amd Thief. That subset is rare among experienced players, but apparently not so rare that WoTC didn't listen to them.

It's also perfect for brand new players to learn the game.

So it is not only not broken mechanically, it's also not broken due to lacking resource options. That's an intentional design feature, not a bug.

Edit: I also find 2 round action surge for 16+ Con a tad powerful. As well as wondering why the focus on Con. That's not an explicit Champion stat. Why did you decide to base class features on it, as opposed to (Str or Dex, players choice)?

[2D8HP]

The Battlemaster instead of Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?504946-Battlemaster-instead-of-Champion) thread has me convinced that the Battlemaster (and I suppose the Eldrich Knight) are more "optimal", but your fix, while a cool class, doesn't retain enough of why I like best about the Champion.
Your revisions class features just aren't as easy for me to remember.
"Critical's on a 19 as well.as a 20" while not usually as powerful as "spells" or "superiority dice", is just so much easier to for me to remember.
Sorry, I still need a class my age addled mind can play.

[SmokingSkull]

If you must change the Champion to better suit your tastes/players/group then you must be careful to preserve the simplicity the subclass is known for. Speaking as a guy who's current char is, while MCed, more fighter than the other and is a Champion I absolutely love that is has very little for me to remember.

That being said however one idea I've always felt would be decent would be you could add your prof bonus to the damage dealt from a weapon attack once per turn. If you score a critical hit you could double your prof bonus and add it to the damage of that attack (This would be alongside the improved critical feature at 3). For Remarkable Athlete I'd simply double the distance you could jump for both long and high jumps in addition to adding half your prof bonus to all Str, Dex and Con rolls using a d20, yes this includes saves amongst other things. I don't really have an idea for level 10 because an extra fighting style does open up some possibilities so I'll leave that alone. In addition to the superior critical gained at 15 I'd grant them the ability to impose a condition on the opponent when the critically hit: when you score a critical hit with a weapon attack you may chose to affect your target with one of the following: blinded, stunned or restrained, this lasts until the start of your next turn.

I'd leave Survivor alone but other than that there's my two copper for what it's worth. And in all honesty the above could and would be OP in the right context so meh, what do I know :smalltongue:

[Vogonjeltz]

Change 2

Fight or Flight

At 6th level when you are under the affect of fear and have not used your action surge, you may use it to attack the source or run away.

If you attack the source and breaks it concentration, you are no longer afraid of this source... ever. If you fail, you are now paralyzed with fear. You may still make saves on your turn.

If you run away, you may only use your action surge to dash and take the dodge action.

Fighters get archetype abilities at: 3rd, 7th, 10th, 15th, 18th

So this would need to be moved to one of those slots. That being said, the text on the latter half of the ability is unclear: Is this to say the Fighter has the paralyzed condition if they attack the target and fail to break concentration on a fear ability that requires concentration (not all do), for example, Menacing Attack does not nor does Intimidating Presence from the Berserker.

This ability needs to be rethought, probably just scrapped. Being reliant on a limuse ability like action surge also makes it fairly awful.

In general, the design ethos of the 3 standard fighter archetypes are:

1) No rest required abilities, always on (Champion), 2) Short rest ability focus (Battlemaster), 3) Long rest ability focus (Eldritch Knight).

If you drastically alter Champion to be a poor man's mimic of #2 (BM) then nobody will pick it at all. Its niche is that it is focused on having no abilities requiring a rest.


Change 3

Remarkable athlete, a champion receives at 7th level a half proficiency boost to all strength, dexterity, constitution based skills in addition to any proficiency they may already have with those skills. Sort of 3/4 expertise

So a champion at 7th level would get
+5 with a strength/dex of 20,
+3 for proficiency in athletics/acrobatics,
+2 for remarkable athlete bonus which is half of +3 rounded up
+10, instead of the normal +8, but still behind the rogue/bard with +11

At 17th level, the champion with a 20 in strength/dex and proficiency in athletics/acrobatics
+14 in athletics/acrobatics,
still behind the rogue/bard with a 20 strength/dex, with +17
but higher than another class with +11.

You do not gain additional benefits of expertise if you multiclass.

Also this affects his dex, str, or con saves. You add half proficiency to all of your dex, con, or strength saves in addition to proficiency if you have in it and the ability modifier.

So does this still add half proficiency rounded up to all 3 ability checks or not? Because there are far more ability checks than there are checks to which a particular skill proficiency applies. If the intention is just to expand the ability to cover anything where proficiency already applies, just say that: Add 1/2 proficiency rounded up to all strength, dexterity, and constituion ability checks, even those to which proficiency already applies.

Otherwise (increasing proficiency to 1.5 for checks to which proficiency already applies) its a flat nerf, which is bad if one thinks the Champion were not strong enough.


Change 4

At 15th level when you action surge you get these benefits.

You add your constitution modifier to your AC versus AoO and to all dexterity saves involving spells and ranged attacks

This seems much worse than expanded crit range. A Fighter isn't a skirmisher, they shouldn't be in a position where they're drawing AoO in the first place. And worse, it does so at the cost of offensive power.


But I'm sorry its boring. And its not because of passive abilities, or nova... The class lacks identity.
[quote=Arkhios]Agreed on both accounts. Champion is fine, but I can see that it's slightly unimpressive as is./quote]

It's the no-rest archetype. One that combines rigorous training with powerful physical blows. That's reflected in them being better at everything by default (more crits, half proficiency to checks that no other fighter can even have proficiency added to, jumping further)

The champion gets half proficiency to arm wrestling contests, every other martial class gets nothing. So their identity is the guy who is better than everyone else around them.

[LordVonDerp]

The champion isn't broken.
Of course not, quite the opposite in fact: it's underpowered. Hence the need for a fix

[Crgaston]

I enjoyed my Champion Archer just fine. The only two things I'd do differently is for Remarkable Athlete, add half proficiency to all Str, Dex and Con checks, even if you're already proficient. There are 3 Dex and 1 Str skill, and you'll probably be proficient in 1 or 2 already, so it's kind of an underwhelming benefit as written.

The other would be advantage on saves vs fear, or auto passing 1 per short rest, also at 7th level. Heck, if you're such a badass, what do you have to be afraid of? At level 20, with a wisdom of 10, you're no less likely to suffer vs a fear effect than an average commoner? I don't think so.

[djreynolds]

These are all very good points. And I appreciate them, really. Its good solid criticism that you need

Like I said I have played and "defended" the champion for a long time, but seeing a new player who I DM just not enjoying the game... is defeating for the whole table.

If the designers came out and said "hey this is for all the players who only want to roll and do nothing else, etc, etc"
but its not.

Players choose the beastmaster because its cool, people choose classes because they are cool... the class calls to them. When you read the profiles of each and their descriptions... it should draw those people to play those classes.

The tough thing in trying to rewrite or even homebrew any fighter is trying to 1- make it something that players want to stay in and possibly at least envision playing 20 levels. 2- I can't depend to much on the mental stats because then players just cherry pick, 3- obviously not making something overpowered. and most important... I don't want to make a copy of another class. Smite is paladins, rage is barbarian, SA is rouge, etc

I'm trying to focus on constitution as the key stat for the champion. It seems appropriate.

So I'll get back to editing this. Perhaps it will be a different homebrew archetype, as players out there do enjoy the class, the most important aspect of the game.

[Vogonjeltz]

These are all very good points. And I appreciate them, really. Its good solid criticism that you need

Like I said I have played and "defended" the champion for a long time, but seeing a new player who I DM just not enjoying the game... is defeating for the whole table.

If the designers came out and said "hey this is for all the players who only want to roll and do nothing else, etc, etc"
but its not.

Players choose the beastmaster because its cool, people choose classes because they are cool... the class calls to them. When you read the profiles of each and their descriptions... it should draw those people to play those classes.

The tough thing in trying to rewrite or even homebrew any fighter is trying to 1- make it something that players want to stay in and possibly at least envision playing 20 levels. 2- I can't depend to much on the mental stats because then players just cherry pick, 3- obviously not making something overpowered. and most important... I don't want to make a copy of another class. Smite is paladins, rage is barbarian, SA is rouge, etc

I'm trying to focus on constitution as the key stat for the champion. It seems appropriate.

So I'll get back to editing this. Perhaps it will be a different homebrew archetype, as players out there do enjoy the class, the most important aspect of the game.

If they don't enjoy the nature of the champion than the solution would be to pick another archetype or another class.

[djreynolds]

If they don't enjoy the nature of the champion than the solution would be to pick another archetype or another class.

You are right, and I had my player change.

There a 3 very distinct paladins archetypes, the mechanics are similar, but you do not have to call it magic... call it something else.

I told him, hey a barbarian can be a samurai... just call rage... focus. And well now the have totem of ancestors.

The fighter is built off of good feat selection, and really understanding how these feats work.

But, I, personally... I'm just looking for something else with the champion. Call grit points.

because the fighter is a funny class, there was a thread about why fighters get scared, and I said because fighters are real people... and real people get scared... and their training carries them. I was looking for something that when a champion has his back to the wall, his training kicks in. Long hours of sword training and shield blocking, etc.. and he can go on autopilot, but after... he needs a sedative or beer because his nerves are shot.