Shining Force

[danzibr]

Anyone play these old games? They were some of my first RPG's (SRPG's, in fact). I played them when I was maybe... 11? Anyway, loads of fun. Then they came out on the PS3 under Sonic's Ultimate Genesis collection, played them again. And the second go around you have save-states, makes getting those super awesome levels 100x easier.

And now I'm playing the first one with my son (he's 5). He does the running around in town and stuff, then wants me to do the combat, but I ask him who he wants to beat first. It's a lot of fun, and a little bit more challenging then it used to be due to not messing around with good level ups, and letting him make some suboptimal choices (which of course we discuss). Plus, I'm going to let him choose all the party members.

Anyway... any fond memories to share? Favorite characters? Anything else to mention?

[Hunter Noventa]

Oh I remember these games. I rented them many times back when I had a Genesis. Both of them are really good games, if a bit simple in terms of mechanics nowadays.

I never realized you could use the Hero's Egress spell to redo battles and get more experience, so it was a big thrill when, as a kid, I found a battle in Shining Force 2 that would trigger over and over again even after you cleared it.

These games had so many secrets too, alternate promotions, hidden items, items that would cast spells when used (though they would sometimes break, and I never figured out that they could cast spells til years later, making me wonder what the Repair option at the shop as for).

I loved the battle cutscenes too, some of the attacks and spells just looked so brutal, it's probably why I love Super Robot Wars today, since it's basically got the same system for battles and cutscenes.

[heronbpv]

Could only play then with emulators, when I was eleven. It was love at first sign, since the magic and item system reminded me of my first RPG on genesis, Shining in the Darkness (who was translated to brazilian portuguese by tectoy, btw. I still have the cartrige, propably yet with my amazing lvl 100 playthrough). So, some of the stuff I saw was easy to figure (like the egress and magic itens).

It's a very dear game to me, though even back then I wasn't able to finish it. Farming to much has this tendency to make me drop the game, and the fight againt Dark Sol was hard enough with my sub-optmal choices...

I also liked it's character diversity. Like Domingo, which is some sort of Ice creature/mage, and Guntz, which looks like a sheep in mecha armor (and is one hell of a tank, to boot).

[Red Fel]

Oh, wow, memories. Played these back in the Genesis days. And if memory serves, one of them got a remake on the GBA - played that, too.

I'll agree with the character diversity. Loved it. You want centaur knights, you got 'em. Monks and martial artists, done. Adorable magic critters, sure. A random samurai and ninja? Why not. Musashi was my favorite in the original; he just destroyed things. In II, it was Kiwi, because he got promoted to GAMERA, FRIEND TO ALL CHILDREN!

It's also one of the earliest games I can remember with hidden wardrobe items. Which amused me.

It was also my first tactical game. Well before FFT, I played Shining Force, and had to figure out how to get my non-flying units to catch up with the flyer I had idiotically allowed to charge into an ambush.

[Dorath]

Could only play then with emulators, when I was eleven. It was love at first sign, since the magic and item system reminded me of my first RPG on genesis, Shining in the Darkness (who was translated to brazilian portuguese by tectoy, btw. I still have the cartrige, propably yet with my amazing lvl 100 playthrough). So, some of the stuff I saw was easy to figure (like the egress and magic itens).

It's a very dear game to me, though even back then I wasn't able to finish it. Farming to much has this tendency to make me drop the game, and the fight againt Dark Sol was hard enough with my sub-optmal choices...

I also liked it's character diversity. Like Domingo, which is some sort of Ice creature/mage, and Guntz, which looks like a sheep in mecha armor (and is one hell of a tank, to boot).

Shining Force is a direct sequel to Shining in the Darkness, so I was a bit surprised at the switch from first person to tactical. Not unhappy, just surprised.

Ogre flute/black box/earth hammer/crystal ooze forever.

[danzibr]

Oh I remember these games. I rented them many times back when I had a Genesis. Both of them are really good games, if a bit simple in terms of mechanics nowadays.

I never realized you could use the Hero's Egress spell to redo battles and get more experience, so it was a big thrill when, as a kid, I found a battle in Shining Force 2 that would trigger over and over again even after you cleared it.

These games had so many secrets too, alternate promotions, hidden items, items that would cast spells when used (though they would sometimes break, and I never figured out that they could cast spells til years later, making me wonder what the Repair option at the shop as for).

I loved the battle cutscenes too, some of the attacks and spells just looked so brutal, it's probably why I love Super Robot Wars today, since it's basically got the same system for battles and cutscenes.
Oh man, I've seen Super Robot Wars, definitely interested.

And I too didn't know you could grind out battles back in the day. Of course I abuse it now :P

Could only play then with emulators, when I was eleven. It was love at first sign, since the magic and item system reminded me of my first RPG on genesis, Shining in the Darkness (who was translated to brazilian portuguese by tectoy, btw. I still have the cartrige, propably yet with my amazing lvl 100 playthrough). So, some of the stuff I saw was easy to figure (like the egress and magic itens).

It's a very dear game to me, though even back then I wasn't able to finish it. Farming to much has this tendency to make me drop the game, and the fight againt Dark Sol was hard enough with my sub-optmal choices...

I also liked it's character diversity. Like Domingo, which is some sort of Ice creature/mage, and Guntz, which looks like a sheep in mecha armor (and is one hell of a tank, to boot).
I actually have Shining in the Darkness, yet haven't played it beyond like 5 minutes.

And the character diversity! Yes! So many cool people. Lyle, centaur dude but with a huge cannon strapped to his shoulder. Peter the Phoenix. Clyde the Golem. Boo-ya.

Oh, wow, memories. Played these back in the Genesis days. And if memory serves, one of them got a remake on the GBA - played that, too.

I'll agree with the character diversity. Loved it. You want centaur knights, you got 'em. Monks and martial artists, done. Adorable magic critters, sure. A random samurai and ninja? Why not. Musashi was my favorite in the original; he just destroyed things. In II, it was Kiwi, because he got promoted to GAMERA, FRIEND TO ALL CHILDREN!

It's also one of the earliest games I can remember with hidden wardrobe items. Which amused me.

It was also my first tactical game. Well before FFT, I played Shining Force, and had to figure out how to get my non-flying units to catch up with the flyer I had idiotically allowed to charge into an ambush.
And Kiwi! Oh, Kiwi... so awesome, and such a disappointment. Starts out tanky but weak, get him some levels, promote him into a monster (his class is actually MSNT right?). But then his stat gains go down the toilet.

Actually, my last playthrough I fed Kiwi *all* of my stat-boosting items for kicks, and he kept his figurative monster status. Oh man, what a beast. Yeah, love that guy.

Shining Force is a direct sequel to Shining in the Darkness, so I was a bit surprised at the switch from first person to tactical. Not unhappy, just surprised.

Ogre flute/black box/earth hammer/crystal ooze forever.
Huh. Yeah, this makes me want to play it more. Of the entire Shining series (there are a good few, I believe), I've only played Force and Force II.

[JeenLeen]

I remember, in Shining Force II, I liked to way over-level the clerics (or whatever class had healing spells), since you could cast that on a max HP person and still gain XP. And since, when you class-up, you reset to level 1, you could get massively more powerful by having a high-level base cleric class-up.

By end-game, Sarah (the starting healer, if I recall correctly), was able to one-shot most foes by her melee attack.

[Winter_Wolf]

The Shining series has stood under well against the test of nostalgia lenses. I still enjoy it even decades later. I had the Shining Force CD on Sega CD, had borrowed the cartridges from a classmate (he got them back, don't worry), had them on emulator, and had the jackpot Shining Force collection on Gameboy Advance when I lived in China, which I played and played until the freaking cartridge battery died permanently. Cheap Chinese knock off or just old, old cartridge? Who knows? Or maybe I literally played it to death (the cartridge, not me obviously).

Also a fan of Shining the Holy Ark, but when Sega Saturn went with full 3D I had trouble adapting to Shining III because it was a lot--A LOT--of Japanese to wade through on top of the camera angles.

[Red Fel]

And Kiwi! Oh, Kiwi... so awesome, and such a disappointment. Starts out tanky but weak, get him some levels, promote him into a monster (his class is actually MSNT right?). But then his stat gains go down the toilet.

Yeah, his original class is Tortoise (TORT), his promoted class is Monster (MNST). And his stats are crap, except he's built like a fricking tank. Oh, and there's that other thing... In his MNST class, he randomly uses FLAMING DRAGON BREATH OF DOOM which does surprisingly solid damage to pretty much anybody, even the final boss. I remember pitting him against the guy one-on-one just for that reason. Both sides would plink away at each other, then FLAMING DRAGON BREATH OF DOOM would happen. Great fun.

[gooddragon1]

Anyone play these old games? They were some of my first RPG's (SRPG's, in fact). I played them when I was maybe... 11? Anyway, loads of fun. Then they came out on the PS3 under Sonic's Ultimate Genesis collection, played them again. And the second go around you have save-states, makes getting those super awesome levels 100x easier.

And now I'm playing the first one with my son (he's 5). He does the running around in town and stuff, then wants me to do the combat, but I ask him who he wants to beat first. It's a lot of fun, and a little bit more challenging then it used to be due to not messing around with good level ups, and letting him make some suboptimal choices (which of course we discuss). Plus, I'm going to let him choose all the party members.

Anyway... any fond memories to share? Favorite characters? Anything else to mention?

Played the first one. Beat it fairly the first couple of times. I lamented that the chaos breaker didn't have bolt 2. Bolt 2 looks cooler than freeze.

Then I cheated hard. Made the main character near invulnerable with stats and such. Gave him flight and ridiculous movespeed too.

[Alent]

I loved the Shining Force games, although I think I came to them backwards from most. I started with the SNES Fire Emblem titles, then a friend went "dude, if you like those games you need to play Shining Force!" and brought over his Genesis emulation files. Having never owned a Genesis, it was a whole new world of games. (Not too long after I ended up lost in Phantasy Star 4, heh.)

I didn't much care for Shining Force 1 at first, but then Shining Force 2 ended up being a blast and after a little while I got used to SF1 and was able to beat it before continuing in SF2. Some time and translation patches later, we ended up playing the Gamegear shining forces, etc. I always liked running all Centaur/spear using armies with mage backup. It was pretty fun crushing armies beneath Mae and Guntz's armored advance. :smallbiggrin: In SF2 I tended to use more foot units and archers, tho'. Especially once I got enough power balls to promote all my priestesses to Master Monks. I think my biggest shock of SF2 was getting the first cannon with 2~3 range. (I was so used to Fire Emblem's range 2 bows, and the FAQ I was using didn't mention bow ranges at all.) I always wanted to promote May to a Pegasus Bowknight, but alas, no close air support for me. :smallfrown:

One of these days, I will get around to beating Shining Force 3. (Of all the games that need a modern re-release, that is one of them.) It's pretty surprising how hard SF3 is if you're trying to maintain Friendship ratings and succeed on the optional bonus challenges like robbing ruins before the thieves do. I'd compare some of them to Thracia 776 maps for difficulty.

[Gandariel]

I was getting more and more confused reading this until i realized you were not talking about Shining Soul 1 and 2

[Alent]

I was getting more and more confused reading this until i realized you were not talking about Shining Soul 1 and 2

Yeah, Shining being a multi-genre soup is the most disappointing thing if you enjoy one of the genres but not any of the others. :smalltongue:

A friend of mine who hates S/RPGs discovered either Shining Force Neo or Shining Soul a few years back, can't remember which, started calling it Shining force, we managed to talk about two different games for almost two hours straight without realizing we were talking about different games because he didn't remember a single character's name and Shining games generally follow the same set of tropes. I was extremely disappointed when he brought over the game the next day and I realized he'd gotten the title out and out wrong. :smallsigh:

Shining Blade seems at a least decent homage to Shining Force, being made in the Valkyria Chronicles 2 engine, but my lack of fluency in moon-runes kills it for me. I wonder if there's a translation for it.

[danzibr]

I remember, in Shining Force II, I liked to way over-level the clerics (or whatever class had healing spells), since you could cast that on a max HP person and still gain XP. And since, when you class-up, you reset to level 1, you could get massively more powerful by having a high-level base cleric class-up.

By end-game, Sarah (the starting healer, if I recall correctly), was able to one-shot most foes by her melee attack.
Oh yeah, totes. I get Karna from Creed's Manor, grind her up to 40 with Boost 2 (or whatever it's called), promote her to Master Monk, grind her up some more, absolutely annihilates everything. I've literally had her solo several of the later battles. Just keep the whole force behind, she one-shots everything, takes 1 damage from everything but magic, and when something does hit her hard, she can just heal herself. Way OP.

The Shining series has stood under well against the test of nostalgia lenses. I still enjoy it even decades later. I had the Shining Force CD on Sega CD, had borrowed the cartridges from a classmate (he got them back, don't worry), had them on emulator, and had the jackpot Shining Force collection on Gameboy Advance when I lived in China, which I played and played until the freaking cartridge battery died permanently. Cheap Chinese knock off or just old, old cartridge? Who knows? Or maybe I literally played it to death (the cartridge, not me obviously).

Also a fan of Shining the Holy Ark, but when Sega Saturn went with full 3D I had trouble adapting to Shining III because it was a lot--A LOT--of Japanese to wade through on top of the camera angles.
Agreed with the nostalgia lenses. Some games I go back and play, and realize they're not nearly as good as I remember. Shining Force though, great.

Yeah, his original class is Tortoise (TORT), his promoted class is Monster (MNST). And his stats are crap, except he's built like a fricking tank. Oh, and there's that other thing... In his MNST class, he randomly uses FLAMING DRAGON BREATH OF DOOM which does surprisingly solid damage to pretty much anybody, even the final boss. I remember pitting him against the guy one-on-one just for that reason. Both sides would plink away at each other, then FLAMING DRAGON BREATH OF DOOM would happen. Great fun.
Maybe my memory's serving me wrong, or maybe I just got really unlucky with his stat gains my first playthrough, but his tankiness really died out partway through the game. His hp is poor, so magic wrecks him. His defense didn't keep up, so even regular guys could take huge chunks out of him. His special attack though, yeah, that's always great.

Now, I love Kiwi, but I think without resetting to ensure good stats, promoting at 40, or using stat boosting items on him, his usefulness really drops later in the game.

Played the first one. Beat it fairly the first couple of times. I lamented that the chaos breaker didn't have bolt 2. Bolt 2 looks cooler than freeze.

Then I cheated hard. Made the main character near invulnerable with stats and such. Gave him flight and ridiculous movespeed too.
Flight, eh? How'd you accomplish this?

I loved the Shining Force games, although I think I came to them backwards from most. I started with the SNES Fire Emblem titles, then a friend went "dude, if you like those games you need to play Shining Force!" and brought over his Genesis emulation files. Having never owned a Genesis, it was a whole new world of games. (Not too long after I ended up lost in Phantasy Star 4, heh.)

I didn't much care for Shining Force 1 at first, but then Shining Force 2 ended up being a blast and after a little while I got used to SF1 and was able to beat it before continuing in SF2. Some time and translation patches later, we ended up playing the Gamegear shining forces, etc. I always liked running all Centaur/spear using armies with mage backup. It was pretty fun crushing armies beneath Mae and Guntz's armored advance. :smallbiggrin: In SF2 I tended to use more foot units and archers, tho'. Especially once I got enough power balls to promote all my priestesses to Master Monks. I think my biggest shock of SF2 was getting the first cannon with 2~3 range. (I was so used to Fire Emblem's range 2 bows, and the FAQ I was using didn't mention bow ranges at all.) I always wanted to promote May to a Pegasus Bowknight, but alas, no close air support for me. :smallfrown:

One of these days, I will get around to beating Shining Force 3. (Of all the games that need a modern re-release, that is one of them.) It's pretty surprising how hard SF3 is if you're trying to maintain Friendship ratings and succeed on the optional bonus challenges like robbing ruins before the thieves do. I'd compare some of them to Thracia 776 maps for difficulty.
I actually prefer lots of aspects of the original to SFII. Namely the characters and most of the plot. But I really like how in SFII you end up coming back to the starting area. Also like how the town upgrades, the items which enable different promotions, Bowie getting more magic than just Egress, and crafting stuff from mythril.

[Red Fel]

Maybe my memory's serving me wrong, or maybe I just got really unlucky with his stat gains my first playthrough, but his tankiness really died out partway through the game. His hp is poor, so magic wrecks him. His defense didn't keep up, so even regular guys could take huge chunks out of him. His special attack though, yeah, that's always great.

Now, I love Kiwi, but I think without resetting to ensure good stats, promoting at 40, or using stat boosting items on him, his usefulness really drops later in the game.

To be fair, magic wrecks everybody. But Kiwi, once promoted, takes only 1 damage from pretty much anything that isn't magic. So, disappointing HP or not, he's a tank. And even his regular, non-FLAMING DRAGON BREATH OF DOOM attacks can still deal respectable damage. Observe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu3V9FvaiCI).

Remember, most units served a tactical function against the AI. In Kiwi's case, it was "provoke archer units in order to allow other units to pass safely." You know, because 1 damage.

[danzibr]

To be fair, magic wrecks everybody. But Kiwi, once promoted, takes only 1 damage from pretty much anything that isn't magic. So, disappointing HP or not, he's a tank. And even his regular, non-FLAMING DRAGON BREATH OF DOOM attacks can still deal respectable damage. Observe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu3V9FvaiCI).

Remember, most units served a tactical function against the AI. In Kiwi's case, it was "provoke archer units in order to allow other units to pass safely." You know, because 1 damage.
Must be my memory serving me wrong. I recall in later levels (granted, the last few in the game), Kiwi getting owned by physical attacks too.

Then again, I think my first play through I promoted everyone as early as possible and didn't reset to get good stat gains.

[Winter_Wolf]

Promotions always resulted in a power dip at first, but doing the early promotion was bad because it screw up the power curve completely. It seemed like you didn't just have a consistent say five point less damage or what have you, but if actually seemed to make you get consistently lower results with the RNG for all your level ups.

That said, Shining Force had some decidedly intentionally craptastic characters. Don't know whether they were traps or jokes or what, but a character like Yogurt in the GBA Shining Force collection was completely 100% punishment if you had him along. At least some of the sucky knights and bow archers could do something in battle. I don't remember who exactly, but there were one of each where they just underperformed pre and post promotion. Unless they had some kind of late post promo exponential power growth they weren't ever with it once you got a few more characters in the pool. Kiwi was a late bloomer, but not so terribly late you'd never see it. But you really need to have a lot of faith in some characters to ever see the payoff.

I remember that mostly your best characters were either starting group or before the midpoint. And if you did the egress leveling thing, the "great" characters in the last half were already promoted so they never really got past sucks-by-comparison to your early members who had been grinding a couple of levels.

Hey remember casters with Desoul? I always felt like they had that because they had three awesome spells and that was tossed in as kind of a spell point sink. Although, there was a stretch where Domingo was scything down hordes of some kind of dumb cluster enemy. Aaand then it was useless the rest of the game. Tao the fire Mage just never really impressed me, but I kept her around for a long time even after Anri came on board, because I cheesed the hell out of l leveling those 1 damage wonders--who became surprisingly badass.

[Anteros]

I liked early promoting because it actually kept the game interesting. Shining Force is like Fire Emblem in that you can easily cheese the system to turn it from a tactical game into just godlike units stomping everything with no difficulty. That's no fun.

[danzibr]

Promotions always resulted in a power dip at first, but doing the early promotion was bad because it screw up the power curve completely. It seemed like you didn't just have a consistent say five point less damage or what have you, but if actually seemed to make you get consistently lower results with the RNG for all your level ups.

That said, Shining Force had some decidedly intentionally craptastic characters. Don't know whether they were traps or jokes or what, but a character like Yogurt in the GBA Shining Force collection was completely 100% punishment if you had him along. At least some of the sucky knights and bow archers could do something in battle. I don't remember who exactly, but there were one of each where they just underperformed pre and post promotion. Unless they had some kind of late post promo exponential power growth they weren't ever with it once you got a few more characters in the pool. Kiwi was a late bloomer, but not so terribly late you'd never see it. But you really need to have a lot of faith in some characters to ever see the payoff.

I remember that mostly your best characters were either starting group or before the midpoint. And if you did the egress leveling thing, the "great" characters in the last half were already promoted so they never really got past sucks-by-comparison to your early members who had been grinding a couple of levels.

Hey remember casters with Desoul? I always felt like they had that because they had three awesome spells and that was tossed in as kind of a spell point sink. Although, there was a stretch where Domingo was scything down hordes of some kind of dumb cluster enemy. Aaand then it was useless the rest of the game. Tao the fire Mage just never really impressed me, but I kept her around for a long time even after Anri came on board, because I cheesed the hell out of l leveling those 1 damage wonders--who became surprisingly badass.
Yeah, Jogurt is intentionally bad. Can't even get past level 1. I like him as a joke character though. Like Hercule from DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi.

I liked early promoting because it actually kept the game interesting. Shining Force is like Fire Emblem in that you can easily cheese the system to turn it from a tactical game into just godlike units stomping everything with no difficulty. That's no fun.
I've done it both ways. I kinda like having the steamrollers :P

[Alent]

I actually prefer lots of aspects of the original to SFII. Namely the characters and most of the plot. But I really like how in SFII you end up coming back to the starting area. Also like how the town upgrades, the items which enable different promotions, Bowie getting more magic than just Egress, and crafting stuff from mythril.

At this point, agreed on all but the plot. At the time, it was a matter of SF2 being more accessible- everything was just faster and more fuller featured. (Although, some of that came at the expense of features- the translators somehow removed the search command from combat. :smallannoyed: ) I think SF1 definitely had better characterization, but it took more work to see since it was slower and clunkier. It was worth it, since there cool things like Jay LenoArthur becoming a (better?) mage knight if you waited to promote him. I don't remember there being an equivalent to him in SF2, which was a shame.

The plot of SF2 I felt was better, but a huge part of that stems from some of the NPCs- Volcannon and Oddler were great. SF1's Kane really fell flat for me and took Runefaust with him, and the SF1 remake added Narsha, who somehow managed to make Runefaust feel even more flat and cliche. SF1 wasn't bad, the strong characterization of the force really carried it, where SF2 had this consistent fairy tale quality to it that made it stronger as a story.

I always thought that they should have released a Shining Force 1 & 2 remake combo cart using an improved version of the SF2 engine for both games, with post-game content that you could merge the armies in. :smallbiggrin: The SF1 remake we got wasn't bad, but would've been ten times better with both games and bonus content instead of Mawlock and his pokemon minigame.

I completely agree with Winter Wolf about Desoul. That spell practically never worked. Am I remembering right that cursed weapons would successfully use it on their wielders at the worst possible time?

Edit:


I liked early promoting because it actually kept the game interesting. Shining Force is like Fire Emblem in that you can easily cheese the system to turn it from a tactical game into just godlike units stomping everything with no difficulty. That's no fun.

Fire Emblem is many things, a tactical game is not one of them. Sim/RPGs tend to err more towards strategy, bigger picture of predicting and controlling enemy options rather than individual tactics. The randomization in hit rates and skill activation is also specifically to defeat the use of tactics.

[danzibr]

At this point, agreed on all but the plot. At the time, it was a matter of SF2 being more accessible- everything was just faster and more fuller featured. (Although, some of that came at the expense of features- the translators somehow removed the search command from combat. :smallannoyed: ) I think SF1 definitely had better characterization, but it took more work to see since it was slower and clunkier. It was worth it, since there cool things like Jay LenoArthur becoming a (better?) mage knight if you waited to promote him. I don't remember there being an equivalent to him in SF2, which was a shame.

The plot of SF2 I felt was better, but a huge part of that stems from some of the NPCs- Volcannon and Oddler were great. SF1's Kane really fell flat for me and took Runefaust with him, and the SF1 remake added Narsha, who somehow managed to make Runefaust feel even more flat and cliche. SF1 wasn't bad, the strong characterization of the force really carried it, where SF2 had this consistent fairy tale quality to it that made it stronger as a story.

I always thought that they should have released a Shining Force 1 & 2 remake combo cart using an improved version of the SF2 engine for both games, with post-game content that you could merge the armies in. :smallbiggrin: The SF1 remake we got wasn't bad, but would've been ten times better with both games and bonus content instead of Mawlock and his pokemon minigame.

I completely agree with Winter Wolf about Desoul. That spell practically never worked. Am I remembering right that cursed weapons would successfully use it on their wielders at the worst possible time?
The main thing I didn't like about SFII was the big demon dude head. I did like Oddler and Volcannon and Peter. The part before you get Claude seemed pretty dry. And on the contrary, I really liked Kane and Darksol.

And regarding the remake, man, I saw some gameplay of the remake and it looked awful. Some of the features sounded cool, but there's no way I'll ever play it.

[Winter_Wolf]

I completely agree with Winter Wolf about Desoul. That spell practically never worked. Am I remembering right that cursed weapons would successfully use it on their wielders at the worst possible time?.

They did that? O_o;
Although I think I had Randolph or one of the Knights using the Devil Lance and it just wrecked his defense but never recall killing him outright.

[Alent]

The main thing I didn't like about SFII was the big demon dude head. I did like Oddler and Volcannon and Peter. The part before you get Claude seemed pretty dry. And on the contrary, I really liked Kane and Darksol.

And regarding the remake, man, I saw some gameplay of the remake and it looked awful. Some of the features sounded cool, but there's no way I'll ever play it.

I'm struggling to remember Darksol's plot past him being part of dark dragon and King Ramladu's puppetmaster. The remake did some TERRIBLE rewriting of Darksol, Max, and Kane's stories. They weren't that great in the first place, but the remake was what I've played most recently and both versions kinda went through the meatgrinder of vague memory.

The remake is horrid and devoid of any redeeming value besides portability, which android/iOS Sega emulators completely rock. The battle sprites are scans of paper illustrations that have barely been cleaned up and the remake team just... started changing story. Save yourself, don't play it. :smalleek: I think I got 2/3rds of Maulock's hokeymon cards before I gave up and went back to working on the GBA phantasy star collection.

Xeon is a generic RPG villain, so while I liked how the intro showed him being unsealed by Slade... Yeah, I agree he was fairly weak in isolation. The other greater devils really did upstage him pretty strongly since he had little plot value beyond "Sealed evil in a can" + "That was a load bearing boss".


They did that? O_o;
Although I think I had Randolph or one of the Knights using the Devil Lance and it just wrecked his defense but never recall killing him outright.

And my memory is fuzzy, hence the question. :mitd: I know one game I played around the same time as I did both shining forces had "Cursed weapon tries to kill you" as a rare curse effect, I would've sworn it was one of the shining force games since "desoul" is the phrase that comes to mind.

[danzibr]

I'm struggling to remember Darksol's plot past him being part of dark dragon and King Ramladu's puppetmaster. The remake did some TERRIBLE rewriting of Darksol, Max, and Kane's stories. They weren't that great in the first place, but the remake was what I've played most recently and both versions kinda went through the meatgrinder of vague memory.

The remake is horrid and devoid of any redeeming value besides portability, which android/iOS Sega emulators completely rock. The battle sprites are scans of paper illustrations that have barely been cleaned up and the remake team just... started changing story. Save yourself, don't play it. :smalleek: I think I got 2/3rds of Maulock's hokeymon cards before I gave up and went back to working on the GBA phantasy star collection.

Xeon is a generic RPG villain, so while I liked how the intro showed him being unsealed by Slade... Yeah, I agree he was fairly weak in isolation. The other greater devils really did upstage him pretty strongly since he had little plot value beyond "Sealed evil in a can" + "That was a load bearing boss".

To be fair, I don't remember much about Darksol. He looked sweet and was a decent boss. And yeah, manipulating people. Beyond that... eh, just like him.

Back to the Kiwi discussion, I did a fair bit of googling and reading. Apparently my memory did indeed serve me correctly: he's lovable but terrible. While he does have the fire breath attack, which apparently triggers 25% of the time, it actually gets worse as the game goes on. So when you're promoted and level 1, it does a solid 30 damage when other attacks might be dealing 20. But when you're 30 and promoted, it's doing a dreadful 30 damage when your other attacks are dealing 80 damage (and this isn't exaggerating, I actually pulled up my old save file and did some testing). His fire attack was *supposed* to power up 3 times, at something like level 12 and others. But it actually powers up at level 32 promoted, egad. And for reference, that save file I pulled up has people in their mid 20's beating the boss.

On top of that, right, his abysmal hp. According to a stat gains guide, if you promote him at a reasonable level 30, the end-game spells will be one-shotting him.

I guess, to be fair, in the early game before magic becomes more common, he's a solid front-liner. When you first promote him, he has awesome movement and a strong fire attack, and at that point magic still isn't too common. But his use radically wanes mid- to late-game.

[Anteros]

Fire Emblem is many things, a tactical game is not one of them. Sim/RPGs tend to err more towards strategy, bigger picture of predicting and controlling enemy options rather than individual tactics. The randomization in hit rates and skill activation is also specifically to defeat the use of tactics.

The games are literally moving individual units around the map one at a time. That is the text book definition of a tactical game. Adding a bit of randomization doesn't change that. :smallconfused:

[Alent]

@Danzibr:
Just liking a chara design is a good as reason as any. :smallamused:


The games are literally moving individual units around the map one at a time. That is the text book definition of a tactical game. Adding a bit of randomization doesn't change that. :smallconfused:

Tactical game isn't a formalized game type, it's a sloppy informal label inspired by FFT, where it was inaccurate from day 1. It mostly came from individuals who had no prior experience with the Simulation/RPG genre, and thus defined it by the first game they experienced. (Even though FFT's only tactical depth really comes from CT manipulation, and any kind of character build optimization results in you needing romhacks to be challenged.)

The reason it's a bad label (Aside from the series creators calling it by a formalized genre title) is because defining or arguing Strategy vs Tactics (http://www.chessfornovices.com/chessstrategyvstactics.html) is like stepping in quicksand. In Chess, which tends to be the root example for these sort of things as related to games, tactics are individual moves or forced sequences, and strategy is the bigger picture, but in practice the boundary between the two can be fuzzy.

Fire Emblem (and Shining Force) tend to be more about strategy, as they lack tactical depth. Typically it ends up boiling down to either "beat it to death" or "heal through it". What tactical variety there is, is usually already decided in advance by a combination of map design and your strategy, and winning quickly for time rating like in Seisen or Thracia is often about eliminating most tactical possibilities at the strategic level. Some S/RPGs do manage to be very tactical, but Fire Emblem is not one of them. Especially with how EXP farming basically undoes difficulty, and is fairly easy to do even in speed runs. (They're still fun.)

For a good example of an S/RPG that supports tactics, look at Wild ARMs XF. (The "XF" is read "Crossfire".) Brutal game, the difficulty and tactical aspect breaks down towards the end but the first 3/5 or so of the game, especially the early maps, basically force you to understand each job's tactics since the devs put a ton of work into giving more options than "beat it to death". It still has a huge emphasis on strategy, but classes have battlefield control, movement, and turn order control abilities in addition to "just beat it to death" or "heal through it", allowing it to have an impressive amount of tactical depth- at least until story mode runs out of ideas.

[danzibr]

Huh... interesting distinction which I don't quite get. Makes me interested in the aforementioned Wild Arms game (I only played 2).

Been playing Shining in the Darkness. Currently grinding up on Kaiserkrabs. Main dude is level 10, others are 8. It's not really my cup o' tea, but I'm enjoying it.

Oh, and no spoilers please. First time and all.

[Dorath]

Huh... interesting distinction which I don't quite get. Makes me interested in the aforementioned Wild Arms game (I only played 2).

Been playing Shining in the Darkness. Currently grinding up on Kaiserkrabs. Main dude is level 10, others are 8. It's not really my cup o' tea, but I'm enjoying it.

Oh, and no spoilers please. First time and all.

You will hate the Cave of Wisdom with every fiber of your being.

[Winter_Wolf]

You will hate the Cave of Wisdom with every fiber of your being.

Every Shining game has that one area people hate, though. Having never played that particular installment I couldn't say, but I had to grit my teeth and just power through the sewers in Shining the Holy Ark. Hate crabs so much--high DEF, low XP, and they're freaking everywhere. Oh, and they're one of the harder encounters to run from. And when you do, there's a good chance you run right into another bloody crab.

SF 1 had that level with dense forest and mountain choke points and flying enemies but your guys had zero air support. Or that desert level where you got 1-2 squares of movement and it just rained fire on you from the dark mages. I totally let every one of my support crew die and just paid the revive fee so I could be done with it.

[Greg_S]

Zalbard! :furious: I can't count how many of my runs as a kid got stopped by bolt 2.

[Anteros]

@Danzibr:
Just liking a chara design is a good as reason as any. :smallamused:



Tactical game isn't a formalized game type, it's a sloppy informal label inspired by FFT, where it was inaccurate from day 1. It mostly came from individuals who had no prior experience with the Simulation/RPG genre, and thus defined it by the first game they experienced. (Even though FFT's only tactical depth really comes from CT manipulation, and any kind of character build optimization results in you needing romhacks to be challenged.)

The reason it's a bad label (Aside from the series creators calling it by a formalized genre title) is because defining or arguing Strategy vs Tactics (http://www.chessfornovices.com/chessstrategyvstactics.html) is like stepping in quicksand. In Chess, which tends to be the root example for these sort of things as related to games, tactics are individual moves or forced sequences, and strategy is the bigger picture, but in practice the boundary between the two can be fuzzy.

Fire Emblem (and Shining Force) tend to be more about strategy, as they lack tactical depth. Typically it ends up boiling down to either "beat it to death" or "heal through it". What tactical variety there is, is usually already decided in advance by a combination of map design and your strategy, and winning quickly for time rating like in Seisen or Thracia is often about eliminating most tactical possibilities at the strategic level. Some S/RPGs do manage to be very tactical, but Fire Emblem is not one of them. Especially with how EXP farming basically undoes difficulty, and is fairly easy to do even in speed runs. (They're still fun.)

For a good example of an S/RPG that supports tactics, look at Wild ARMs XF. (The "XF" is read "Crossfire".) Brutal game, the difficulty and tactical aspect breaks down towards the end but the first 3/5 or so of the game, especially the early maps, basically force you to understand each job's tactics since the devs put a ton of work into giving more options than "beat it to death". It still has a huge emphasis on strategy, but classes have battlefield control, movement, and turn order control abilities in addition to "just beat it to death" or "heal through it", allowing it to have an impressive amount of tactical depth- at least until story mode runs out of ideas.

The fact that you choose to brute force your way through doesn't mean it's not a tactical game. Neither does your unofficial personal opinion about the genre names. You can definitely play both series with a focus on tactics if you desire.

[danzibr]

My son and I switched to II (his choice). Just got through the first 2 battles, but he seems to prefer it.

I was thinking of replaying them both at some point. But doing something like no humans (except the protagonist), or all humans, or all dudes, or all chicks (again, sans Max/Bowie).

In the interim, progressing through Shining in the Darkness. Grinded out one more level, Pyra got Egress, now stomping my way through the Trial of Might (or whatever it's called). Having some decent gear definitely made the game more enjoyable.

[Alent]

Huh... interesting distinction which I don't quite get. Makes me interested in the aforementioned Wild Arms game (I only played 2).

Yeah, Strategy vs Tactics is a fuzzy, highly abstract distinction. I find the distinction most useful when trying to analyze how good or bad an S/RPG is, but it's been my dream to make my own S/RPG for over a decade, so I probably care more about these things than most. :smallamused: (Actually starting to make some progress on that! :smallbiggrin: )

I've thought about trying to do a Lets Play of WA XF, but I really doubt it'd be interesting to watch. (I mean, it's been so long since I played the game that it will be "fresh" to me, but I've always felt the joy in these sort of things was in playing them yourself.) Either way, if you pick up WA XF, play the first Wild ARMs game before you do. There's a bunch of really cool thematic nods to WA1 and 2.

Back on topic, apparently there are some LPers doing plays of the translated Shining Force 3 scenarios now that there's translations out for all 3 scenarios, including a Scenario 1 retranslation. :smallbiggrin:


My son and I switched to II (his choice). Just got through the first 2 battles, but he seems to prefer it.

I was thinking of replaying them both at some point. But doing something like no humans (except the protagonist), or all humans, or all dudes, or all chicks (again, sans Max/Bowie).

It's the fairy tale plot and improved color palette, I'm sure. :smallwink:

No humans seems a little too easy as a restriction, there aren't actually many humans in the Force. Most of the people you'd think are humans are elves or dwarves.


Zalbard! :furious: I can't count how many of my runs as a kid got stopped by bolt 2.

I had to look that boss up, but as soon as I saw the shrine map it went click- THAT GUY!! Completely agreed, he was very annoying to my younger self. I had pretty low levels and only a few promoted units when I got to him originally.

Wasn't there someone in the first Shining Force game that liked to hit you with a really big AoE, too?

[Techwarrior]

The Marionette boss would hit you with Freeze 2 (3?) relatively early on. It was pretty brutal.

[tonberrian]

Marionette was the first appearance of those bats that inflicted Sleep on attack, right? Those things were annoying as heck.

[danzibr]

It's the fairy tale plot and improved color palette, I'm sure. :smallwink:
Yeah, you're probably right. Those colors are way brighter. Music might contribute, too.

No humans seems a little too easy as a restriction, there aren't actually many humans in the Force. Most of the people you'd think are humans are elves or dwarves.
I went back and had a good look through, and man, you're totally right. For example, I was thinking Tao was a human, but pretty sure she's an elf, judging by those ears. And there are a *lot* of characters which I'm not quite sure are human, like Luke and Gort (dwarves?), Gong (dunno, but I think he's human), Lowe (another dwarf?), Torasu (yet another dwarf???), Musashi (who knows what's under that mask). Could do something like obviously not human v. possibly human, or say elves and dwarves are close enough.

The Marionette boss would hit you with Freeze 2 (3?) relatively early on. It was pretty brutal.
Oh yeah, that was brutal indeed.

Marionette was the first appearance of those bats that inflicted Sleep on attack, right? Those things were annoying as heck.
I *think* the bats in the second battle can sleep you. Unsure though.

[Techwarrior]

I know the third battle for sure had bats that could sleep. The area with the marionette had the first upgrade to bats. Those were blue instead of the regular brown.

It had to have been Freeze 3 now that I'm thinking about it. Freeze 2 was a 1-2 range spell 5 square pattern, but the boss shot off 2-3 range for a 13 square pattern. I was really salty when Domingo was not learning Freeze 3 for so long after that boss. I wanted my huge aoe.

[danzibr]

I know the third battle for sure had bats that could sleep. The area with the marionette had the first upgrade to bats. Those were blue instead of the regular brown.

It had to have been Freeze 3 now that I'm thinking about it. Freeze 2 was a 1-2 range spell 5 square pattern, but the boss shot off 2-3 range for a 13 square pattern. I was really salty when Domingo was not learning Freeze 3 for so long after that boss. I wanted my huge aoe.
Oh yeah. Freeze 3 is savage. I remember up to that point I kept my party pretty close together, turtled my way to the boss, but when you get there, gotta spread 'em out.

Also, I started a challenge run, dunno if I'll stick with it, though. For the original, going to do the minimal party run. Have Max (I called him El Macho though) at the first battle.

[Hunter Noventa]

Oh man, I've seen Super Robot Wars, definitely interested.

Missed most of the discussion over the holiday, but couldn't leave this alone.

If you liked Shining Force, you'll SRW. Moreso if you like giant robots of course. Original Generation 1 and 2 are on the GBA, and until recently were the only games translated officially. SRW J for the GBA has a fan translation, as does Alpha Gaiden for the PS1. if you wanted to play those, I'd suggest Alpha Gaiden, then OG1 and 2 and J.

Most recently however, Super Robot Wars Original Generation: the Moon Dwellers was translated into Engrish (that's intnetional) and released for the Asian region on PS4. Which is region free. And next year we get Super Robot Wars V the same way.

As for Shining Force, I played 2 so much more than 1. I remember having so much trouble against Talos, and missing a ton of the secrets like getting nigh-ultimate weapons using Mythril and such.

As far Tactics vs Strategy, I feel the biggest difference is scale. Tactics is how you win a battle, Strategy is how you win a war. So an individual fight in a game like Shining Force or FFT is Tactics, but how you equip and chose to develop your troops would be the Strategy.

[Red Fel]

Missed most of the discussion over the holiday, but couldn't leave this alone.

If you liked Shining Force, you'll SRW. Moreso if you like giant robots of course. Original Generation 1 and 2 are on the GBA, and until recently were the only games translated officially. SRW J for the GBA has a fan translation, as does Alpha Gaiden for the PS1. if you wanted to play those, I'd suggest Alpha Gaiden, then OG1 and 2 and J.

Most recently however, Super Robot Wars Original Generation: the Moon Dwellers was translated into Engrish (that's intnetional) and released for the Asian region on PS4. Which is region free. And next year we get Super Robot Wars V the same way.

I think the big draw of the SRW games is the very thing that keeps a lot of them out of official Western translation - franchise crossovers. The officially translated games are mostly OCs - fun characters you'll enjoy, but new faces with little baggage. But the untranslated games give you basically everything, including Voltron, GaoGaiGar, numerous Gundam, and others. So, yeah, if you can get your mitts on a non-regionlocked copy, do it, because... Well, because everything. It's just great.

[Hunter Noventa]

I think the big draw of the SRW games is the very thing that keeps a lot of them out of official Western translation - franchise crossovers. The officially translated games are mostly OCs - fun characters you'll enjoy, but new faces with little baggage. But the untranslated games give you basically everything, including Voltron, GaoGaiGar, numerous Gundam, and others. So, yeah, if you can get your mitts on a non-regionlocked copy, do it, because... Well, because everything. It's just great.

The upcoming SRW V is getting an official Engrish translation for the Asian Region release, and PS4s are region free. It has the likes of Crossbone Gundam, Brave Liner Might Gaine and Mazinger Zero.

It. Will. Be. GLORIOUS.

[danzibr]

Watched some gameplay of SRW. Looks awesome.

Quick question (no spoilers please). So I found the lizard guy in the Trial of Might (or was it Strength?), then went back to town, then proceeded to beat the Trial of Might. But... they were talking about some sort of special thing to reveal true natures or something. Is that in the Trial of Might? Should I go back to get that before going to the second trial?

And of course, no spoilers please :)

[heronbpv]

I believe the trial of might is the first one? And the second one is the wisdom? (or maybe courage?), and the item that reveals "true natures" lies somewhere in the cave. I think after the trial of might, you get a key to the second cave? Maybe with the king, or something.

Damn, has been so long, I can't remember properly. :smallsigh:

[danzibr]

I believe the trial of might is the first one? And the second one is the wisdom? (or maybe courage?), and the item that reveals "true natures" lies somewhere in the cave. I think after the trial of might, you get a key to the second cave? Maybe with the king, or something.

Damn, has been so long, I can't remember properly. :smallsigh:
:P

Played a bit last night. Turns out might is indeed the first, then courage. I beat those two trials, then talked to the advisor or somebody, and said person mentioned the true nature thingy is in the trial of courage, so gotta go back there.

Also, bought my first mithril! I have no clue what to do with it, but I possess it :P

I find it interesting Shining in the Darkness and SFII have mithril, yet the game between them does not.

[Hunter Noventa]

:P

Played a bit last night. Turns out might is indeed the first, then courage. I beat those two trials, then talked to the advisor or somebody, and said person mentioned the true nature thingy is in the trial of courage, so gotta go back there.

Also, bought my first mithril! I have no clue what to do with it, but I possess it :P

I find it interesting Shining in the Darkness and SFII have mithril, yet the game between them does not.

There's a secret village of dwarves you take the Mythril to if I recall, and you get one of several random weapons. Some of which are powerful enough to completely change the power level and usability of a character.

[heronbpv]

About mithril in Shining in the Darkness, not much of a spoil, but just in case:

About the mithril, I believe one of the merchants can use it to craft things for you. Don't remember which one, though. xD

There's also a certain drop that can be used for crafting cursed itens (black ore? Something like it). In one of my runs, I found a monster that had a good drop rate and then farmed it until I went through all craft options for this material. Then sold everything to the merchants... Good times :D

[danzibr]

There's a secret village of dwarves you take the Mythril to if I recall, and you get one of several random weapons. Some of which are powerful enough to completely change the power level and usability of a character.
That's SFII.

About mithril in Shining in the Darkness, not much of a spoil, but just in case:

About the mithril, I believe one of the merchants can use it to craft things for you. Don't remember which one, though. xD

There's also a certain drop that can be used for crafting cursed itens (black ore? Something like it). In one of my runs, I found a monster that had a good drop rate and then farmed it until I went through all craft options for this material. Then sold everything to the merchants... Good times :D
Hmm, maybe I just haven't progressed far enough. For the merchant to do it, that is. Or maybe I need to like... eh, I dunno. If I get much further and nothing happens, I'll probably look it up or ask here (I'm hesitant to look things up though, afraid I might see spoilers).

[Hunter Noventa]

That's SFII.

Ah, didn't realize you were talking about something else, I never did play Shining in the Darkness.

It's probably not in SF1 because it was far more linear, it was impossible to backtrack at all, so where could they put somewhere to take it?

[danzibr]

Ah, didn't realize you were talking about something else, I never did play Shining in the Darkness.

It's probably not in SF1 because it was far more linear, it was impossible to backtrack at all, so where could they put somewhere to take it?
Probably the penultimate chapter. Maybe the last.

Oh, but I meant to say... yeah, some of those special weapons in SFII were absurdly powerful. Slade's OHKO comes to mind, as does the super big Master Monk fist.

[Hunter Noventa]

Probably the penultimate chapter. Maybe the last.

Oh, but I meant to say... yeah, some of those special weapons in SFII were absurdly powerful. Slade's OHKO comes to mind, as does the super big Master Monk fist.

Yeah, Slade is decidedly average without his weapon, but a glass cannon powerhouse with it.

[danzibr]

Yeah, Slade is decidedly average without his weapon, but a glass cannon powerhouse with it.
My son just got Slade last night, did the first battle with him. Yeah... he's quite janky pre-promotion.

Also, got through some more Shining in the Darkness. Got the Orb of Truth, went to the next trial (Trial of Truth???), wandered around a little, came to a puddle, monster popped out of it, Sea Stallion. Holy moly, the thing hit like a truck. Went down quickly, but still...

Need to buy some better gear.

[Hunter Noventa]

My son just got Slade last night, did the first battle with him. Yeah... he's quite janky pre-promotion.

Also, got through some more Shining in the Darkness. Got the Orb of Truth, went to the next trial (Trial of Truth???), wandered around a little, came to a puddle, monster popped out of it, Sea Stallion. Holy moly, the thing hit like a truck. Went down quickly, but still...

Need to buy some better gear.

Yeah, Slade is bothersome because you want to get him his promotion ASAP, but he also desperately needs the stats from the level ups he could still get. Unless it's been too long and I'm mixing up Shining Force and Fire Emblem...

[Anteros]

I always thought Slade was decent even without his final weapon. Of course I haven't played the game since I was a wee lad so it's entirely possible I was awful at it.

[Dorath]

Skipping shields and using madu is the way to go during the trials. Once you finish the trials, and the merchant that takes mithril and dark blocks appears, farm them until you have everything you want.

[danzibr]

Skipping shields and using madu is the way to go during the trials. Once you finish the trials, and the merchant that takes mithril and dark blocks appears, farm them until you have everything you want.
Is skipping shield a type of shield, or are you suggesting not buying any? And what's madu?

[Dorath]

Is skipping shield a type of shield, or are you suggesting not buying any? And what's madu?

The madu is one of the weapons found at the Armorer, equipped in the off-hand in place of a shield. Much better than any shield early, but loses out to mithral shields once the Labyrinth proper is opened.

[danzibr]

The madu is one of the weapons found at the Armorer, equipped in the off-hand in place of a shield. Much better than any shield early, but loses out to mithral shields once the Labyrinth proper is opened.
Good to know! I'll be trying to acquire these tonight :)

[Ogremindes]

Heh, after reading this thread I have the bug to dig out my copy of Shining Soul 2. And my DS Lite, I suppose.

[darkdragoon]

Tactical game isn't a formalized game type, it's a sloppy informal label inspired by FFT, where it was inaccurate from day 1.

It is actually a shorthand reference to Tactics Ogre, its predecessor. Which was a dramatic departure from its own predecessor in Ogre Battle.

FFT's main issue is a lot of the strongest abilities are both undercosted and easy to reach on the job tree.


XF has some interesting things like throwing enemies and such but you have characters that can steal turns, and then, well, there's Tony.

[danzibr]

Update time!

Man, I just don't like Shining in the Darkness (got to the 4th trial). Not my cup o' tea (encounter rate is absurdly high, and I've never liked navigating dungeons like that, similar to Wizardry or Phantasy Star). I'm going to plow through for the sake of completion, though.

Also, still playing SFII with my son. Got to the Kraken battle. Haven't been maximizing stat gains, and boy, my thoughts on Kiwi sucking are reaffirmed. He usually gains 1 attack, 1 defense, 1 agility. Rare hp, sometimes he'll get 2 defense. Maybe sometimes 2 attack? Compare this with other unarmed people, Peter and Gerhalt can both get 3 attack.

His hp is awful, awful, awful. He has 9 or something, and isn't underleveled. The kraken arms can OHKO him. The head is even worse, of course. He just sucks so bad.

My son really likes him, though. One night, after he goes to bed, I'm going to spend some time powerleveling Kiwi, ensuring optimal stat gains, get him out of super-sucky zone.

[Winter_Wolf]

You have to feed Kiwi pretty much every Cheerful Bread you find, honestly. He's a weird one because while you feel like you're wasting all your stat boost items in him, he generally ends up worth it.

Although I just tend to feed my hero all the bread, attack, and defense, while quick chicken goes to the dwarfs. One time I fed all the +MP stuff to him, too, but it's really debatable if it wouldn't have been better to feed it to a wizard. Monks and priests pretty much starve no mater what.

I don't tend to switch out characters a lot, and it's bitten me a few times when the party gets split for any reason, since ALL the suck characters seem to wind up on the same team.

[Alent]

My reply to the OT stuff in spoilers, I guess I should reply since I started the mess.


It is actually a shorthand reference to Tactics Ogre, its predecessor. Which was a dramatic departure from its own predecessor in Ogre Battle.

That just doesn't track to me. All the Ogre Saga fans I knew back then called them S/RPGs. It was the FFT fans calling them Tactics RPGs. I introduced all the ones I knew to Tactics Ogre, even, they'd never even heard of it, and the general unavailability of the US release really made it hard to get my friends into it.

This makes sense by the numbers: FFT had around a million in sales. TO's first US release (the PSX port) came out a year later, and Atlus USA never reported their sales to hide that they only made 50k copies.

I wish Square would dust off Ogre Battle and give it a good remake. I know why they won't, but still, I wanna see Debonair get an art update. (The cool ver with all the furs, not the nappy ver from OB64 with the shampoo commercial hair and ugly tabard.)


FFT's main issue is a lot of the strongest abilities are both undercosted and easy to reach on the job tree.

FFT's main issue is that it has enough main issues to fill a book. :smallwink:


XF has some interesting things like throwing enemies and such but you have characters that can steal turns, and then, well, there's Tony.

I don't really remember using the turn stealing that much. I remember having to use it on the named boss battles towards the end, but other than that it wasn't really much more than a way to make it take even longer for Alexia's turn to come up.

Also, what was wrong with Tony? Underperforming mascot PCs are a longstanding tradition, as seen with the recent posts in this thread about Kiwi. By the end of the game you aren't really using Tony or Labrina anymore, anyway. (Labrina has such good skills and such a terrible chassis to use them... I ended up making her a Nightstalker to see if it'd improve her speed... she's still slow- although admittedly not as slow as Alexia.)

Should we move future replies to this to it's own topic? I feel bad about causing this little off topic tangent.


Update time!

Man, I just don't like Shining in the Darkness (got to the 4th trial). Not my cup o' tea (encounter rate is absurdly high, and I've never liked navigating dungeons like that, similar to Wizardry or Phantasy Star). I'm going to plow through for the sake of completion, though.

Good luck, man. I hate that style of dungeon, too. I managed to muscle through Phantasy Star 1 and part of Arcana, but Shining in the Darkness just... rubbed me the wrong way from the word go and I couldn't put the effort in.


Also, still playing SFII with my son. Got to the Kraken battle. Haven't been maximizing stat gains, and boy, my thoughts on Kiwi sucking are reaffirmed. He usually gains 1 attack, 1 defense, 1 agility. Rare hp, sometimes he'll get 2 defense. Maybe sometimes 2 attack? Compare this with other unarmed people, Peter and Gerhalt can both get 3 attack.

His hp is awful, awful, awful. He has 9 or something, and isn't underleveled. The kraken arms can OHKO him. The head is even worse, of course. He just sucks so bad.

My son really likes him, though. One night, after he goes to bed, I'm going to spend some time powerleveling Kiwi, ensuring optimal stat gains, get him out of super-sucky zone.

Just remember to take him to level 40 before promoting him. It's pretty tempting to promote him right away, but getting him up there will really help.


I don't tend to switch out characters a lot, and it's bitten me a few times when the party gets split for any reason, since ALL the suck characters seem to wind up on the same team.

This. This kept happening to me. One side of the map on split maps would invariably end up without any ranged attackers or healers and the other would have all the powerhouses that never needed healing. :smallannoyed:

[danzibr]

Just remember to take him to level 40 before promoting him. It's pretty tempting to promote him right away, but getting him up there will really help.

I don't really like that he needs to promote like 10 levels later to stay competitive >.>

But yeah, he needs it.

Oh, speaking of the cutest character on the Force, I did some leveling with him last night. He was one of my highest leveled characters, 15 or something, walking into the Kraken battle. He had 9 hp, and the legs did 6 damage or so. The arms were way worse. *BUT* after overleveling him a little bit (to be fair, just a little bit), the legs only did 1 damage, and the arms did like 5. So with a little bit more overleveling, the arms should only deal 1 damage. Granted, we're talking about making him ~6 levels higher than everyone else, but he regain his status as tanky.

[darkdragoon]

Simulation is probably the most correct overall term but there's still different layers.

Like, whether there's an Enemy Phase or Elite Promotion vs. Wait Time and Class/Job Change.

[Knaight]

So I picked up one of the games (Dark Dragon, the GBA one) because of this thread. The mechanics are a bit opaque for my taste*, and the individual character turns instead of team turns has made it feel a lot less strategic than Fire Emblem, but I'm enjoying it.

*Seriously, would it kill the designers to just give you the spell damage ahead of time? And what's with hiding enemy stats until you jump them?

[OracleofWuffing]

I rented Shining Force II a bit back in the day... Way back in the day when rental stores were the thing. I grew up in a mostly Nintendo household, so it wasn't really the first grab, and young me didn't really put two and two together regarding Egress and grinding for levels, so I didn't get that far- I remember the Kraken fight being mostly a wall for me. Reason why it was Shining Force II and not I was because there were two rental stores, and for some reason they decided to keep those exclusive. Ended up playing the first one once, but can't remember how short I got into it. Regardless, Shining Force and Phantasy Star (which neither store had) were the titles I kept reading as the Genesis' response to Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior, so it interested me, just couldn't wrap my foolish mind around it at the time.

Later on, I got Sword of Hajya at a pawn shop. Need to find where my Game Gear AC adapter is, I think I'm near-finished on that one... I remember being in a battle with a statue that shoots a laser, gave me flashbacks to Advance Wars 2's Death Ray except that's chonologically backwards.

Anyhow, trying to catch up on games I never finished, so running through Shining Force 1 now. Up to the battle with Elliot, and realized he's not gonna move, regenerates HP, and will only attack if I come in range, so I'm sitting something down on my C button and letting all my ranged characters chip away at him for piddly experience while I do chores. On one hand, it kind of feels nice abusing a stupid AI. On the other hand, given the conversation you had with him on the map prior- that he knows that his king's being manipulated and really doesn't want to do this but wants to be loyal- it's kinda in character for him to let me grind up on him? Call it mental gymnastics if you want.

[danzibr]

I liked Elliot. Isn't that the battle where you can get a bunch of Heat Axes?

Anyway, still playing SFII with my son. Beat the chess battle. For some reason the king went *way* past his support units, managed to just barely beat him before he got Heal 3'd again. Phew.

Haven't touched Shining in the Darkness for a few days. Played Fallout 3 instead. I'll beat it someday :P

Oh, I was going to do the challenge run for Shining Force where you recruit as few characters as possible. Skip the initial people with the cart bug, you end up with 11 at the end of the game, not even a full team! I think, it's 12, right? Anyway, I was thinking of maybe recruiting just one character, get it up to the full 12. In particular, I never used Arthur (I think I started using him once but he sucked so I ditched him), but hear he gets quite good with some investment.

[Hunter Noventa]

I liked Elliot. Isn't that the battle where you can get a bunch of Heat Axes?

Anyway, still playing SFII with my son. Beat the chess battle. For some reason the king went *way* past his support units, managed to just barely beat him before he got Heal 3'd again. Phew.

Haven't touched Shining in the Darkness for a few days. Played Fallout 3 instead. I'll beat it someday :P

Oh, I was going to do the challenge run for Shining Force where you recruit as few characters as possible. Skip the initial people with the cart bug, you end up with 11 at the end of the game, not even a full team! I think, it's 12, right? Anyway, I was thinking of maybe recruiting just one character, get it up to the full 12. In particular, I never used Arthur (I think I started using him once but he sucked so I ditched him), but hear he gets quite good with some investment.

Oof, I think that chess battle was where I stalled out completely back when I would rent the game. Of course, you missed tons of delicious exp by killing the King first, but that is a brutal fight.

[danzibr]

Oof, I think that chess battle was where I stalled out completely back when I would rent the game. Of course, you missed tons of delicious exp by killing the King first, but that is a brutal fight.
True, true.

I happened to grind up a *lot* on the Kraken battle though. Well, not an absurd amount, but I got everyone to at least mid teens. Now several people are low 20's. I plan on promoting at 30 (except Karna though, she goes to 40 and gets the Vigor ball ;) ).

[heronbpv]

Yup. Arthur is the knight that learns magic, and his stat gain can get quite obnoxious later on. Yeah, it's not great magic, but certain targets just need that guaranteed damage.

[danzibr]

I'm again convinced of Kiwi's suckiness.

Compare him to anyone else. Maybe not literally anyone else, but pretty much anyone else. Take Peter or Gerhalt, who are considered good beaters. Kiwi starts with higher defense (maybe 10 points?). But I keep seeing Kiwi gain levels where he gets 1 attack, 1 defense, 1 agility. If I don't reset over and over, he almost never gets hp, and rarely gets 2 attack or defense. For a guy whose shtick is defense, he sure doesn't get much of it. Gerhalt, on the other hand, never fails to get hp, and often gets 2 attack or defense.

Or even compare him to Karna. A healer! I powered her up to 39 the other night (unpromoted), she almost always get 2 of multiple stats. 2 hp, 2 mp, 1 attack, 2 defense, 1 agility. Or 2 attack, or 2 agility. Even if you completely stripped her mp and spells, she'd still be better than Kiwi.

I see only 3 uses for Kiwi:
1) At the start of the game, when his defense actually matters.
2) Right when you promote him, his fire attack (which scales absolutely horribly, i.e., not until level 32(?) until promoted) does decent damage.
3) He can float, which gives him great mobility and he retains the damage reduction.

Point 3 is kind of moot, given he'll still die immediately to magic, and almost immediately to physical attacks. His stats take a hit when you promote him, lowering his already meager hp, and not superb defense.

EDIT: Oh wait. Do you still lose stats when you promote in SFII? Or is that just the original?

Edit edit: Verified the don't drop in SFII. Huh.

[OracleofWuffing]

I'm about to run through the last half of the end game of Shining Force I, thought I'd grab everyone's stats in one place (http://imgur.com/a/F3YlS) for easier comparison. Everyone was promoted at level 20, then levelled to 20, except for Domingo and Jogurt because Domingo learns Freeze 4 at 26 and Jogurt is Jogurt. I didn't do any resetting for stats, and guides kind of take the long route of explaining how stats work, so I don't know how they compare to the ideal, but there's a point where things are just good enough for me. I know I won't be doing this sort of madness for everyone in Shining Force II, it's clear that they just don't want you to have everyone at super-good long-term growth and a few types of characters are in there for laughs.

[danzibr]

I'm about to run through the last half of the end game of Shining Force I, thought I'd grab everyone's stats in one place (http://imgur.com/a/F3YlS) for easier comparison. Everyone was promoted at level 20, then levelled to 20, except for Domingo and Jogurt because Domingo learns Freeze 4 at 26 and Jogurt is Jogurt. I didn't do any resetting for stats, and guides kind of take the long route of explaining how stats work, so I don't know how they compare to the ideal, but there's a point where things are just good enough for me. I know I won't be doing this sort of madness for everyone in Shining Force II, it's clear that they just don't want you to have everyone at super-good long-term growth and a few types of characters are in there for laughs.
That's handy, thanks!

Some of these are a bit surprising. As you said, no resetting, but based on what I know of levels are determined, it should be close to the norm (I read at some point that the better your stats are, the less likely good level-ups are, and vice versa). I always read Arthur really picked up a lot in later levels. Seems to not be the case, at least not in this trial. Maybe you need to abuse resetting for this.

EDIT: Oh yeah. Still going through SFII, got to the Zalbard battle. 'Dat Bolt 2.

And man, Kiwi's so bad. I know I bash him every other post, but gotta say it again. Gained a level (this happened more than once, actually) with 1 attack and 1 defense. That's it. Ugh.

[OracleofWuffing]

Something that might be making Arthur's stats look less impressive is that I grabbed everyone that equipped spears/lances with Power Spears, which are the second-strongest spear in the game, but are simultaneously the second-weakest spear. Part of doing this was to see who would end up best wielding the Valkyrie and Halberds, which would add 20 and 10 attack, respectively. Among the spear-wielders, Arthur ended up second to only Gunts (who was my Turbo Pepper recipient) in Attack and Defense, and Arthur got best of class for HP in that group. His stats did pick up in that regard: Agility aside, he's the best Literal Paladin on the Force, and that's not touching his minor spell ability for annoying enemies.

That said, I don't see myself 20/20ing Arthur again. Yes, he's the tops of his peers and it isn't a challenge to level up someone that can equip spears, no, it still took too long for him to become useful and I don't see much point to Paladins in this game, anyways. :smalltongue:

Looks like I should look into patching or editting when I play Shining Force II. I get that Kiwi won't really be of any use in the endgame unless I do something ridiculous, but I remember that guy being one of the few useful characters when fighting Kraken and that fire breath level up thing sounds solidly in the oversight category of design.

[danzibr]

Something that might be making Arthur's stats look less impressive is that I grabbed everyone that equipped spears/lances with Power Spears, which are the second-strongest spear in the game, but are simultaneously the second-weakest spear. Part of doing this was to see who would end up best wielding the Valkyrie and Halberds, which would add 20 and 10 attack, respectively. Among the spear-wielders, Arthur ended up second to only Gunts (who was my Turbo Pepper recipient) in Attack and Defense, and Arthur got best of class for HP in that group. His stats did pick up in that regard: Agility aside, he's the best Literal Paladin on the Force, and that's not touching his minor spell ability for annoying enemies.

That said, I don't see myself 20/20ing Arthur again. Yes, he's the tops of his peers and it isn't a challenge to level up someone that can equip spears, no, it still took too long for him to become useful and I don't see much point to Paladins in this game, anyways. :smalltongue:
Ahh I see. Thanks!

Looks like I should look into patching or editting when I play Shining Force II. I get that Kiwi won't really be of any use in the endgame unless I do something ridiculous, but I remember that guy being one of the few useful characters when fighting Kraken and that fire breath level up thing sounds solidly in the oversight category of design.
That might be a great way to play Kiwi. Get him up to 20 no problem, promote him straight away, then pray for that 25% chance of good damage. If it were to improve as intended, he'd have a small but decent chance of doing solid damage. And that floatiness, attack from weird angles.