TWF Barb with Claw Weapons - Will it Get boring later on?

[MrCeeJ]

Hey guys,

I was messing around on Hero Forge last night and was checking out the claw weapons. It then gave me an idea of a Human (Variant) Barb taking TWF Feat and a dip in Fighter for the TW fighting stance. The claw weapons would be 1d6 slashing, so obviously this is not supposed to be an optimal build, but a Wolverine type character would be neat.

Fighting would be 2d6+STR+Rage bonus, using bonus action, and then eventually getting extra attack to add on. So say, at level 5 Barb (6 Character level), he gets 3d6 + all the math.

It seems like it would be a fun idea and would probably go way of the totem for survivability, but Raging + attack with action + attack with bonus action seems like it may get redundant if that's all he does.

Has anyone run into that before or do you find that Barb still gets plenty in later levels to spice things up and keep you from doing the same thing every fight?

[gfishfunk]

That is pretty typical of any spell-less melee build - the worry that things will get stale.

Interesting encounters and RP moments make things more interesting though. Also, you really could include a shove in there as well once you get extra attack and do just a little bit more variety of things. The fighter dip might not be worth it, as it only adds your STR modifier to one attack each round (just your off=hand attack). At best, you are looking at a +5 damage (+7 once you hit very end game), and early on you are looking at +3 or +4.

[MrCeeJ]

That is pretty typical of any spell-less melee build - the worry that things will get stale.

Interesting encounters and RP moments make things more interesting though. Also, you really could include a shove in there as well once you get extra attack and do just a little bit more variety of things. The fighter dip might not be worth it, as it only adds your STR modifier to one attack each round (just your off=hand attack). At best, you are looking at a +5 damage (+7 once you hit very end game), and early on you are looking at +3 or +4.

Can shove be used for the Extra Attack? I thought it was limited to only attacking with a weapon?

[gfishfunk]

Can shove be used for the Extra Attack? I thought it was limited to only attacking with a weapon?

When you use the attack action, you can replace one of the attacks with a shove (or grapple, actually). It does not work with an off-hand attack, though, due to very specific wording. If you have only 1 normal attack and 1 off hand attack, shoving will eliminate them both (your attack action was for a shove, your bonus action attack keys off of 'when you make a melee attack...'). When you get extra attack, you can shove, attack, off hand bonus attack (or attack, shove, bonus off hand attack).

Its one of the weird ways that the rules work that is not necessarily intuitive.

[gfishfunk]

Exact text makes it clearer:


Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature. . . . If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.

Notice that the way it is phrase excludes using the bonus off hand attack from being used to shove.

[MrCeeJ]

Ah, ok. Cool.

So at level 5 is when that mechanic becomes helpful since, like you said, you use the first attack to shove, the attack + bonus attack.

I can see the build remaining fun for a bit longer with that combo.

[bid]

Fighting would be 2d6+STR+Rage bonus, using bonus action, and then eventually getting extra attack to add on. So say, at level 5 Barb (6 Character level), he gets 3d6 + all the math.
Actually 1d6+Str+rage + 1d6+rage, so rage twice.
And 1d6+Str+rage * 2 + 1d6+rage, once you get extra attack.

Dipping fighter for TWF style would add Str, total (1d6+Str+rage) * 3
Getting DW feat... aren't claw light weapons?
Because a Str ASI would be better than DW, if you don't need the AC bonus.


The problem with TWF barbarian is that GWM is too strong. By not using heavy weapons, you lower your damage. Still, going barbarogue could be more fun and might solve your "staleness" fear. Some expertise in athletics can do wonder to your shove/grapple game.

[Arc-Royal]

If you went deep enough into Fighter for Battle Master, you could grab some maneuvers to mix things up a bit (and since the DC is based on your choice of STR or DEX, your maneuver DC won't be pitiful).

[MinotaurWarrior]

The UA zealot barb works well with a wolverine concept, imo. From level 3 you've got position fiddling to keep you engaged with the present encounter, and then you get the muahahahahahah undyingess.

Dipping rogue is also good fun. Expertise:Athletics and sneak attack. Shove snikt snikt.

The problem with adding random stuff to a Barbarian is that so many things are anti-synergy spellcasters.

It's in no way optimal, but Zealot 14/Rogue1/Figgter1/Ranger2/Paladin2 is, imo, cool. You get TWF + Defense + Protection fighting styles, are a super demon hunter, can make three attacks per round from your undying rage, self heal, and I guess can't spells under the right circumstances. A fair number of ranger spells have non concentration durations, so e.g. you can longstrider & jump yourself for mobility, or charm animals. And of course, there's always ooc utility spells, and hunter's mark for when you somehow run out if rages.

[MeeposFire]

The UA zealot barb works well with a wolverine concept, imo. From level 3 you've got position fiddling to keep you engaged with the present encounter, and then you get the muahahahahahah undyingess.

Dipping rogue is also good fun. Expertise:Athletics and sneak attack. Shove snikt snikt.

The problem with adding random stuff to a Barbarian is that so many things are anti-synergy spellcasters.

It's in no way optimal, but Zealot 14/Rogue1/Figgter1/Ranger2/Paladin2 is, imo, cool. You get TWF + Defense + Protection fighting styles, are a super demon hunter, can make three attacks per round from your undying rage, self heal, and I guess can't spells under the right circumstances. A fair number of ranger spells have non concentration durations, so e.g. you can longstrider & jump yourself for mobility, or charm animals. And of course, there's always ooc utility spells, and hunter's mark for when you somehow run out if rages.

Why protection style? He is not going to be using a shield as far as I can tell. He could go with mariner style for even more AC and a swim speed.

Personally I think that idea gets shot down by just sheer MADness. You would need a 13 or more in str, dex, wis, and cha. It would make normal human useful I would admit though. The one thing you did not mention that would be good for a barbarian is that paladin 2 gives you divine smite which can be used in a rage since you do not cast a spell to use it (just expend a slot which is not the same thing).

[MinotaurWarrior]

Why protection style? He is not going to be using a shield as far as I can tell. He could go with mariner style for even more AC and a swim speed.

Personally I think that idea gets shot down by just sheer MADness. You would need a 13 or more in str, dex, wis, and cha. It would make normal human useful I would admit though. The one thing you did not mention that would be good for a barbarian is that paladin 2 gives you divine smite which can be used in a rage since you do not cast a spell to use it (just expend a slot which is not the same thing).

You're right that mariner is better. I was figuring the donning / doffing of shields in only one action would be OK for the situational ability, but really only went with it because that MC comes with 3 fighting styles, and it was on the page. But yeah, I highly endorse the use of mariner style and smiting, if anyone goes for this crazy build.

27 Point buy:

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 11
Int 9
Wis 13
Cha 13

First two ASI's go to Strength, and you're not optimized, but you're alright. You're three hp / level behind a standard barbarian (possibly four at level 12), but Barbarians often have more HP than they need anyway, and at zealot 14 you become unkillable anyway.

[MrCeeJ]

The UA zealot barb works well with a wolverine concept, imo. From level 3 you've got position fiddling to keep you engaged with the present encounter, and then you get the muahahahahahah undyingess.

Dipping rogue is also good fun. Expertise:Athletics and sneak attack. Shove snikt snikt.

The problem with adding random stuff to a Barbarian is that so many things are anti-synergy spellcasters.

It's in no way optimal, but Zealot 14/Rogue1/Figgter1/Ranger2/Paladin2 is, imo, cool. You get TWF + Defense + Protection fighting styles, are a super demon hunter, can make three attacks per round from your undying rage, self heal, and I guess can't spells under the right circumstances. A fair number of ranger spells have non concentration durations, so e.g. you can longstrider & jump yourself for mobility, or charm animals. And of course, there's always ooc utility spells, and hunter's mark for when you somehow run out if rages.

I do like the UA Zealot and was reading through it after this post. I think WotC probably thought about late level staleness for a pure melee character and this was their answer for that. Plus, making them somewhat relevant against anything with resistance to non-magical damage if they don't have anything to use.

My DM currently likes to throw things at us that have physical resistance, but has been somewhat stingy with magical weapons. So it's fine for the casters, but the melee feel kind of left out. I can see the Storm or Zealot paths being a big help to feel useful.

I've always been hesitant with multiclassing a couple levels since I feel like it takes a while for the concept to come online, especially with how long it can take to level up. Would it be worth it to do a level 2 dip in Fighter, or is 2 weapon fighting style and action surge not worth it in the long run?

[MinotaurWarrior]

I do like the UA Zealot and was reading through it after this post. I think WotC probably thought about late level staleness for a pure melee character and this was their answer for that. Plus, making them somewhat relevant against anything with resistance to non-magical damage if they don't have anything to use.

My DM currently likes to throw things at us that have physical resistance, but has been somewhat stingy with magical weapons. So it's fine for the casters, but the melee feel kind of left out. I can see the Storm or Zealot paths being a big help to feel useful.

I've always been hesitant with multiclassing a couple levels since I feel like it takes a while for the concept to come online, especially with how long it can take to level up. Would it be worth it to do a level 2 dip in Fighter, or is 2 weapon fighting style and action surge not worth it in the long run?

Well, you've got to think in breaks.

Never MC a martial before 5, so you're gonna be a Barb 5. You know that if you MC to fighter, you're gonna be annoyed at level 14 when you're not immortal. So it's Barb levels 6-13 that are in question.

Level 6 - huge when it comes up, but it doesn't come up all the time. Not regretting the delay is a DC 5 check per level, I'd say.
Level 7 - You're not playing rocket tag. I think the initiative bonus is nbd
8th - ASI, aka strength 20, a big deal
9th - Brutal critical is nice, but much less so for 1d6 wolverine
10th - Poser deathlessness. You'll regret the delay if you get knocked to 0
12th - ASI - not the biggest one since you already have STR 20, especially for wolverine
13th - Brutal critical.

Is +4/5 to DPR worth the majority of individual items on there? Is that, plus 2d6+12/14/16 once per short rest worth the majority of adjacent pairs? That's up to you, but that's how I'd make the decision.

I personally find the last six levels of barbarian uninspiring, which is why I don't really worry about MCing after that (from a game satisfaction standpoint). But Zealot 14 is

[MrCeeJ]

Thanks for the break down. I agree, it would be wrong to MC before level 5 since it would suck to delay the extra attack just for the +3/4 damage. Especially when the extra attack can be used as a shove to gain Advantage.

I was looking through the UA and Totem bars and it's really difficult to determine when the MC break would be prior to 14. Though I feel like the extra automatic damage, on a hit, from having Two Weapon fighting style would be nice to have sooner rather than later. It's a tough call.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Yeah. Personally, I'd probably do Fighter 1 as my sixth level but hold off on the rest of my multiclassing until Character level 16.