I need help understanding Druid builds

[Clopin Silk]

I've seen people on the forums talk about how Druid builds can be divided into two basic categories, and I was just wondering if someone could explain that in a little depth; what are the specializations of these builds, which is more powerful, which is more fun?

[Malroth]

There's actually a lot more than Two out there, Druid being a solid enough class to fill pretty much any role. but generally competent beginners will tend to flock to one of two categories.

1) Wildshape Gish
2) Summoning specalist

The wildshape focused Gish will use his wildshape class feature to assume the form of some vastly superior animal/abberation/plant/elemental/dragon form than his base race, buff himself with his long duration druid spells and function mostly as a melee monstrosity with utility spell support. Expect usually monster exclusive feats like improved natural attack, flyby attack, assume supernatural ability, or wingstorm. This type of build is usually simple to play, direct in it's methods and isn't paticularly troublesome for a High op table but will make any vanilla Melee types at a low op table feel useless and neglected. It tends to be quite fun to play if your table can handle it.

Summoning and buff focused Druids are more subtle to play, they tend to begin the day with long term buffs on their animal companion and use their own wildshape for mobility and senses, then they use crowd control and utility spells to debuff enemies to make them easier targets for their party members and can shore up weakness in the battlefield with tons of summoned animals, It tends to be more party friendly at a Low op table and has a higher power ceiling at a high op table but requires a much more strategic mindset to truly enjoy. Expect feats like Extend spell, Greenbound summong, Augment summoning, Summon elemental



Honorable mention: The blaster

Druids have a very versitile spell list and there is actually quite a lot of support to make them direct damage AOE blasters. Control weather, Earthquake, Flame strike, Spike stones, Ice storm, Kelp strand, body of the sun, Call lightning are all quite nice ways to provide a lot of damage to a lot of targets and while not optimal by any means it does do a useful job quite well.

[Clopin Silk]

Thanks for clearing it up. One little question; I had this idea for a trick you could use as a druid, and I wanted to know if it would work: cast Stone to Mud on the floor under your enemy's feet, then while they're waist deep in muck, cast Mud to Stone, effectively trapping them in place. Do you see any issue that would stop that from working?

[eggynack]

I don't really see druid builds as falling into two basic categories. My philosophy on druid builds, at least if you're seeking to optimize, is that you really want this kinda general spread of feats, making some important selections from a few feat subcategories, and then maybe you can specialize a bit from there if you have the feats left over. So, you start out with natural spell at 6th, because that's practically a given. Then, you add one of the major form adding feats, aberration, dragon, exalted, or frozen wild shape, and those just so happen to be simultaneously in alphabetical and descending power order. You don't really need more than one of those, because you can't be an aberration and a dragon at the same time. Then you want one out of rashemi elemental or greenbound summoning, and, again, you don't get significant benefit from having both.

So, now you've used up three or four out of seven total feats, leaving you some room to work with less mutually exclusive and less insanely powerful feat choices. This is where you take lesser summoning feats, like ashbound, initiate feats, like gatekeeper initiate, animal companion feats, like natural bond, prestige class prerequisites, like, let's say favored of the companions for lion of talisid, or a bunch of other things. Here, and in the particular selections from earlier, is a strong differentiation point for druid builds.

That's the feat part, anyway, and while you can always just go druid 20 and funnel the rest of your decisions into spells, wild shape choices, and the animal companion, which can all be altered day to day, you also have a bunch of useful crap you can pull with prestige classes and ACF's. Maybe you go full on shifter, taking four levels of moonspeaker and two of the substitution levels, or maybe you take an exalted focus, with the aforementioned lion of talisid and vow of poverty, or maybe you just get together some generically useful stuff like holt warden, contemplative, and strong stomach, and simply act as a more tuned version of a standard druid. Or, y'know, take a bunch of planar shepherd levels and break the game even more than usual.

There's one element which does tend more towards two choices though, and that's wild shape form selection. My terming for that is bear versus bat philosophy. The former method, the way of the bear, uses wild shape forms as your main source of in-combat action, with your spells augmenting that. You cast a bite of the were-x, have up some longer term buffs in general, take some big melee brute form (or, rather, just be in one full time), and eat the faces of your enemies. It's not my preferred method, but it's a thing you can do. The latter method, the way of the bat, uses spells as your main source of in-combat action, with wild shape augmenting that. You take on a heavily defensive form, like the desmodu hunting bat with its high AC, high initiative, and strong flight speed, and you use that as a mobile missile platform to cast all kindsa strong spells. I don't really consider this a druid build thing though, because I don't think you should really be using your feats on those more marginal melee options even if you're planning to emphasize that, which means you can switch from one plan to the other within a day, or even a round, or, with items, even a swift action.

Anyways, for more stuff on druid builds, consider using my sigged handbook. All that stuff I just said is a very surface level version of the insane depth that is druids, ignoring things like, y'know, what you're actually using aberration wild shape for once you get there, or what those spells you're casting in bat form are. And, if you consider all of that day to day stuff build elements, which it is in one sense, then it means that druid build options stretch off towards insanely high numbers. It should cover all you need to know.

All you need to know including, incidentally, your mud to rock thing. And the answer is that there's nothing stopping that from working. It's a pretty standard trick.

[Clopin Silk]

Thanks for all the help. And, just checking here; the best use of Fire Seeds, at least as far as I can see, is to give them to someone else in the party, am I right in thinking that?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Thanks for all the help. And, just checking here; the best use of Fire Seeds, at least as far as I can see, is to give them to someone else in the party, am I right in thinking that?

No, your party members should have other things to do. Give them to a Wood Wose or Unseen Servant instead.

[Clopin Silk]

No, your party members should have other things to do. Give them to a Wood Wose or Unseen Servant instead.

Thanks for the tip. How about using the berry version of Fire Seeds (which only explode when I want them to, according to the spell description), to create a perimeter defence when the party needs to rest?

[ryu]

Thanks for the tip. How about using the berry version of Fire Seeds (which only explode when I want them to, according to the spell description), to create a perimeter defence when the party needs to rest?

It's a very real choice, assuming you don't have access to a wizard powerful enough to rope trick your party through the night and spell prep. I would also recommend an alarm spell and/or party member that doesn't really sleep like an elf or undead.

Other actually pretty good sustainable resource spell would be good berry. Welcome to good berry, home of the good berry.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Thanks for the tip. How about using the berry version of Fire Seeds (which only explode when I want them to, according to the spell description), to create a perimeter defence when the party needs to rest?

You can, but it only lasts 10 minutes/level. That's not enough for a whole night even extended and at level 20. It's better if you're setting an ambush, but for resting protection it doesn't help much unless your DM obliges you by sending the attack early in the night.

[John Longarrow]

One note on Wildshape. Check with your DM before you decide what you can/can't change into. Most of the time you'll have no problems with what you want, but some DMs don't have specific monsters in their campaigns. Would be horrible if your entire plan centered around you being able to assume the form of a Brown Dragon only to find out your DM doesn't have them in his world.

[sleepyphoenixx]

One note on Wildshape. Check with your DM before you decide what you can/can't change into. Most of the time you'll have no problems with what you want, but some DMs don't have specific monsters in their campaigns. Would be horrible if your entire plan centered around you being able to assume the form of a Brown Dragon only to find out your DM doesn't have them in his world.

Good advice. I'd also ask how your DM treats the "must be familiar" rule for wild shape. Some DMs are pretty free with that or even ignore it entirely, but knowledge checks are a common solution too.
For animals and plants that's not a problem, but if your DM does that and you want to take something like Aberration Wild Shape or Dragon Wild Shape you need to plan ahead, because Kn:Arcana and Kn:Dungeoneering aren't natively on your class list.

[John Longarrow]

Good advice. I'd also ask how your DM treats the "must be familiar" rule for wild shape. Some DMs are pretty free with that or even ignore it entirely, but knowledge checks are a common solution too.
For animals and plants that's not a problem, but if your DM does that and you want to take something like Aberration Wild Shape or Dragon Wild Shape you need to plan ahead, because Kn:Arcana and Kn:Dungeoneering aren't natively on your class list.

It is a painfully learned lesson... Had a player who specifically had their character take Alter Self so they could turn into a winged elf. Had to explain I don't have them in my campaign... Player had to rethink about HALF of what he wanted his character to do because flying at 3rd level was a big part of it.

[Clopin Silk]

Welcome to good berry, home of the good berry.
Can I take your order?

Also, I noticed that the Druid spell list has some really weird spells. While it's weird enough that there's a spell to create a big wooden cube (for all those people who felt that high fantasy adventures were hollow without the ability to summon a box), I think my favourite little bit of insanity has to be Spider Hand.


The caster detaches his hand, which transforms into a Small monstrous spider (see the Monster Manual) that he controls. The caster can see through its eyes, and it can travel up to 20 feet per level away from him. If the spider is killed or prevented from returning to the caster, his hand is restored when the spell ends, but he takes 1d6 points of damage. If the caster directs the spider to return to his arm (a move-equivalent action), then lets the spell end, he takes no damage. It's obviously a useful spell, but seriously, who the hell thought this insanity up?