Magic Mart Shopkeeper's Defenses?

[Nettlekid]

It's kind of a video game RPG staple that if the shopkeeper can be attacked, it's only at the player's expense because the shopkeeper is so much stronger than any monster that it's all the player can do to stay alive once they swing their sword. In D&D, it's a little harder to justify having a shopkeeper that can protect themselves without DM fiat, or the DM saying "no you're not allowed to rob the shopkeeper" to the player who's trying to do just that. In a game a few years ago I had a Rogue player who loved to commission items to be made for him and then just steal them from the shopkeeper when they were done, and since it wasn't a very serious campaign and the character build was far from broken or even solidly optimized I let him have his fun. But in a more legitimate campaign, how might this work out?

For the sake of discussion, let's set some baselines to work with.

First of all, let's assume that a "magic mart" does exist. A lot of DMs will remove this problem entirely by making magic items harder to acquire and requiring a system of letters and trading or something like that, but in the scenario I'm proposing let's say there's a shop in a town that has +1 swords and Amulets of Suchandsuch on display.

Secondly, assume that the shopkeeper isn't so absurdly high level that you'd question why they're running a shop and not out defeating the BBEG on their own. Being around half the PC's level is probably a fair estimate, perhaps a bit higher if the shopkeeper is making some of the items being sold.

Thirdly, since the shopkeeper is selling items to make money, their defenses can't require massive expenditure of magic items to maintain. They can't so freely whip out high level Wands and Scrolls and Staves to defend themselves with or bolster the defenses of their shop if doing so expends those items and means that those items can't be sold down the road. But apart from that, most magical items would be available for them to use, including charged items with permanent effects if need be (that they would have used long ago).

Fourthly, assume that Tippyverse shenanigans aren't available. No custom magic items, no self-resetting magic traps of X spell, no Pazuzu-Candle of Invocation-Efreeti-Wish-Scroll of Ice Assassin of a God-Fusion-Astral Seed, nothing like that. Something...reasonable for the pay grade. Something that any similar shopkeeper would be able to pull off.

Fifthly, similar to the last, assume similar tricks aren't available for the PCs in question. You can assume that they've built their characters well, high damage and AC, long-lasting buff spells, things like that, but not NI values of any. Assume values of around ECL+15 for attack rolls and AC and skills, that's decent enough for this thought exercise.

And finally, remember that the goal of the shopkeeper isn't to kill the players, just stop them from stealing the merchandise. Anything that accomplishes that goal, from forcibly ejecting the PCs to warping the shop and/or its goods away to scaring them off to actually overpowering them, would work in this situation.

I know that's a pretty tall order, and I myself can't think of a properly adequate solution, which is why I'm wondering if someone here can.

[Troacctid]

The items are cursed so that they don't work unless they've been legally purchased. If you steal them, they're useless. If you steal back the money you paid for them, they're useless.

Also, the Merchant's Guild insures everything.

[Nettlekid]

The items are cursed so that they don't work unless they've been legally purchased. If you steal them, they're useless. If you steal back the money you paid for them, they're useless.

Also, the Merchant's Guild insures everything.

The curse thing is a little DM fiat-y, in that it uses an ability that doesn't exist in any book. It's not something a PC could replicate if they wanted to, which I guess is a good baseline of the tactics I'd appreciate.

[Necroticplague]

Easy: storage is on another plane. Using Portals, the shopkeeper travels to the secure location off-sight to retrieve the more pricey items. So, unless you can figure out where the portal is, what the key is, and how to use the key to open the portal, robbing the store only gets you the cheap stuff they have on display. This secure location is likely either a guild center of some form, where magic merchants pool their resources for defense, or else the equivalent of safe-deposit-box like services that they pay exactly for this security. They provide this service because, most of the time, its money without a lot of work." I imagine sigil would be a good place for this.

Rules for portals in forgotten realm campaign setting, so no fiat needed.

[Troacctid]

The curse thing is a little DM fiat-y, in that it uses an ability that doesn't exist in any book. It's not something a PC could replicate if they wanted to, which I guess is a good baseline of the tactics I'd appreciate.
It's totally in the books! It's in the DMG, under Magic items > Cursed items > Requirement: "Character must undergo a specific quest."

[JoshuaZ]

The curse thing is a little DM fiat-y, in that it uses an ability that doesn't exist in any book. It's not something a PC could replicate if they wanted to, which I guess is a good baseline of the tactics I'd appreciate.

Items can have drawbacks. If one has items that have an additional use feature that one has to legitimately believe one required them, by a reasonable reading of the 3.5 rules, such items should *cost less* than a regular version of that item. So having them cost the same amount isn't crazy, although this would require either the shopkeeper or the people he is purchasing them from to make the items that way.

Different approach: if someone runs a magic item shop they a) likely have at least a few levels in classes that let them use a lot of magic items and b) may keep some of the more expensive and deadly ones directly on their person. If the shopkeeper is sorcerer 1/expert 4 with max ranks in UMD and a relevant feat, and with a few powerful single use items on them, they could be quite deadly.

What level do you imagine your shopkeeper is and how long have they had to prepare or to have other people help them secure their shop?

[sleepyphoenixx]

I wouldn't bother with too much. Forbiddance, Arcane Lock, Alarm spells, a few mid-level guards and basic golems. That should discourage most thieves.

For really high level thieves the shopkeepers money is much better spent on hiring mercenaries after the fact. And advertising the practice, of course.
High-end, high-op wizard mercenaries that are actually on par or higher level than the PCs.
Because a bunch of organized and well built spellcasters on their tail are the only thing high-level PCs will actually respect, and it's the kind of thing you really can't afford when you're on a world-saving quest.

Don't pull any punches building those. This isn't about playing fair. This is about your players pushing to see how you push back. You don't have to go for the TPK for the first offense, but painful consequences should happen unless you want your players to rob magic stores instead of whatever your campaign was about previously.

Not to mention that it'll spread like wildfire if a bunch of PCs go around robbing stores. The hit to their reputation and people refusing to deal with them in the future can be a lot more painful than getting a few extra items is worth.

[Troacctid]

Also, remember that even low-level shopkeepers are going to be guild members, so although they themselves may be weak, they have the backing of a powerful organization.

[Jack_Simth]

The way I always figured....

The merchant you greet isn't the real merchant. The merchant you greet is a front. The actual merchant is underground somewhere, at the edge of the range of the ring gate (and, in fact, is feeding several different fronts that way). The actual merchant is a wizard.

A portable hole.
Half of a Ring Gate pair.
A catalog.
Several displays that are nothing more than thief bait. Cursed items that are pretty much unsaleable, but look impressive.A carefully shaped and Forbiddanced cave.
A few golems to handle labor.
A lot of Symbol spells on the walls, attuned to the wizard and the golems (possibly other traps as well).
A lot of Permanent Image illusions that the merchant has already disbelieved and can see through.
Permanent See Invisiblity.
Permanent Arcane Sight.
The other halves of the ring gate pairs, mounted on the walls such that you do not have line-of-sight or line-of-effect to the wizard through the ring gates, but as soon as you go through them, the Wizard has both line-of-sight and line-of-effect to you.
Contingency for a nice buff on the Wizard.
A combat loadout of spells.
Several all-day and hours/level buffs running.The front merchant takes your order and your money, puts it into the portable hole, and tosses it through the ring gate.
The real merchant sees the portable hole, orders the golem to open it and dump it all out, confirms that the paper is nonmagical, reads the order, makes sure the money matches, orders the golem to fetch the appropriate items, put them in the portable hole, and send them back through the ring gate.
The front merchant opens the portable hole, takes out your goods, and gives them to you.The front merchant takes your goods, puts it into the portable hole, and tosses it through the ring gate.
The real merchant sees the portable hole, orders the golem to open it and dump it all out, ID's everything via Analyze Dweomer, orders the golem to put everything on the shelves, fetch the money, load the portable hole, and toss the portable hole back through the ring gate.
The front merchant removes your money from the portable hole and gives it to you.When the goods are a bag of holding, portable holes, and related items: those just go straight through the ring gates as-is after being inverted. Because Portable Holes have negligible weight, the Ring Gate transport limit is irrelevant (except when dealing with Bags of Holding and related items, of course).

If you rob the front merchant: You get... a portable hole, half a ring gate, some highly cursed items, and the enmity of a powerful wizard.

If you sneak past the front merchant to try and get to the real merchant, you're facing a lot of Symbol spells (and possibly other traps) all at once, plus an angry Wizard.

[Tvtyrant]

Depends on the setting and what they are selling. Anyone selling goods of spell levels 6 and up is going to have 9th level defenses on tap, and is the store front for a powerful mage. They have access to goods only through extra dimensional gates, and robbing the place you wouldn't find much that isn't a worthless show piece.

At lower levels (spell level 3-5) the merchant has some glyphs and explosive runes set up, but is primarily safe via having an agreement with someone stronger then them. Regular insurance payments with an Inevitable, dragon, fiend or local adventuring group is advertised all around and inside the shop, and the party should expect death to come if they steal from the merchant.

At very low levels the merchant has little in the way of defenses besides the local watch and hiring retributive mercenaries.

[Zanos]

Also, remember that even low-level shopkeepers are going to be guild members, so although they themselves may be weak, they have the backing of a powerful organization.
This is traditionally how it's handled. In Faerun specifically, you could steal from one of the Red Wizards merchants, but you'd probably have a bad time.

[Fizban]

The shop/keeper/storage is defended by an encounter/trap/etc of appropriate level with regards to the value of the items they actually have on hand which could conceivably be stolen. How these came to be is irrelevant: if they've been in business long enough to actually have a stockpile of magic items that needs defending, they have had enough funds to build up their defenses over time.

Furthermore, you will only find actual piles of varied magic items in the largest of cities, under the control of the highest level casters in those cities, which are indeed high enough level to do all sorts of shenanigans. The simplest and most reliable defense is the standard core Secret Chest, which is essentially unfindable unless you've personally seen it or its contents and use Discern Location-which only works until the owner has the chest+contents made immune to Discern Location. The chest can only be summoned by the caster, so robbing it requires mind controlling the caster, who is a high level caster. It includes a built-in dead man's switch where if you kill or imprison the caster eventually the chest simply cannot be re-summoned at all. For more security the paranoid caster will live inside a Magnificent Mansion, which cannot be infiltrated by anyone not explicitly allowed in by the caster (so no-one), making it impossible to assault them while the chest it present or get a personal visual for Discern Location.

Shops without casters of that level will not have very much ready stock at all, for the exact reason that they lack sufficient ability to defend it/themselves from thieves. Magic items "bought" from "shops" with lesser security are all individual commissions, paid for up front, and only the cheapest and most common items will ever be found ready to buy.

Note that quite a few permanent magical traps and defenses really aren't all that expensive. Scrolls of Genius Loci, Energy Transformation Field (plenty useful even without cheese), and Greater Sign of Sealing (cl20) are about 8k, 7k, and 3k, respectively. Those can give you an elder elemental that protects an area indefinitely, an area where any spellcasting is absorbed, and a permanent wall of force blocking a corridor until someone dispels it (with cl20) which the caster can simply walk through.

Guilds and consequences are also significant.

Jack_Smith's setup is good for more paranoia, though none of it precludes having the wizard further standing within a Magnificent Mansion and storing the choicest bits in their personal Secret Chest.

The items are cursed so that they don't work unless they've been legally purchased. If you steal them, they're useless. If you steal back the money you paid for them, they're useless.

It's totally in the books! It's in the DMG, under Magic items > Cursed items > Requirement: "Character must undergo a specific quest."
Clever, and potentially transferable thanks to first sale doctrine, but only works for items made with that curse. Should also make it a hassle if other party members need to use your gear, I'd say anything strong enough to count as a legal purchase would require negotiation time or a transfer of goods (either taking more than a free action), and if you're unconscious it's impossible. A case can easily be made for some people to refuse paying full price for that, even if others think it's worth more. Either way it doesn't cover anything crafted before or outside this revolution, which should be most of the magic items in circulation if the world has a significant history.

[ace rooster]

The problem is that PCs robbing the shop is not the only issue with the magic mart. There is also the whole problem of the magic mart charging full price, despite it not being in their interests to do so. For example, if the town is under attack and the only hope is the PCs.

I like the DM credit line approach to items. The magic mart exists for the players only, and not the characters. In universe almost nobody sells magic items, and crafters are few and far between. When a player wants an item, they ask the DM and it then somehow ends up in their character's hands. It might be for sale locally (assuming that the character has money, or is prepared to rob the shop), or it may just turn up as treasure.
This way, it is impossible for the characters to steal items and not pay, because even if they do the DM will still credit their account! They may also debit it some for the encounter, but beating up an old man for his family sword is unlikely to be a particularly challenging encounter, so not much unless the robbery was also supposed to be an encounter. It certainly doesn't need to be a representative challenge of the haul.
This also fixes the problem of the townsfolk not aiding the PCs. When the players go to the magic mart before defending the town, the characters simply ask the town for assistance. Through DM fiat, the items that the town can provide the characters with are the items that the players asked for.

One really cool thing about this is that it does allow players to be a lot more fluffy with what they actually do with their treasure. They do not need to convert it into cash to buy items, (and indeed cannot) so are free to do other things with it. The cleric is free to donate everything that they will not use to their church, without hindering their item advancement. A rogue can be a master thief who is always sneaking off with the best jewels without screwing with the party mechanically. The wizard is free to crash the salt economy, and use the procedes to build himself a tower, but this does not allow the player to buy scrolls of wish.

Another cool thing about this is that it allows the DM to be far more liberal with wealth. Dragons can be sitting on huge piles of gold, and adamantine doors are not massive blocks of combat stats. The king of a region would not sell their castle and buy 1 million gp worth of magic items to keep themself safe, meaning that PCs could actually realistically interact with far wealthier parties than themselves.

Essentially it is seperating player cash from character cash. Mecanically impacting items have to be bought with player cash, where roleplay items do not.

[Fizban]

This way, it is impossible for the characters to steal items and not pay, because even if they do the DM will still credit their account!
This is known as "actually following WBL (which doesn't actually care how you got the items)," but it does seem to be rare. While I like the idea of meta-narrative approaches, introducing one always makes it obvious that there's not a whole bunch of others, and once you start trying to strap narrative mechanics to everything it's better to drop dnd and go for a more narrative focused system to begin with.

As for why the people with all the magic items won't let the PCs use them, the better question is: "Why are all these higher level NPCs sitting around doing nothing so I have to do all the work?" Someone with magic items that are worth your time is basically by definition at least the same level as you, often higher, and if there's a bad enough crisis that the PCs ought to have all the money thrown at them, it's bad enough those NPCs should already be fighting. If they're fighting, they're wielding their own items. If they're not fighting, it's because they don't care and certainly won't be giving you stuff for free.

[khadgar567]

I will go with contracts with following local guilds fighter and thief (if you can rob the magic mart you are either good recruit for guild or juicy target for them )and global merchant guild so they cant use my goods

[John Longarrow]

One trick you can use to convince your players not to rob the place is have them get hired to go and hunt down someone who'd previously stolen from a shop. One target that is half their level. They are paid well for it by an "Interested Party" who represents the guild.

Once the players realize they can get five times what the thief did to hunt a thief down they should understand its not a good idea to rob these places.

[legomaster00156]

Someone with magic items that are worth your time is basically by definition at least the same level as you, often higher, and if there's a bad enough crisis that the PCs ought to have all the money thrown at them, it's bad enough those NPCs should already be fighting. If they're fighting, they're wielding their own items. If they're not fighting, it's because they don't care and certainly won't be giving you stuff for free.
I would disagree on this point. They may care, but not have the motivation to fight. Not everyone is a combatant, even if they could be.

[Zaq]

A running semi-gag (it's tongue-in-cheek, but it's still a relatively real part of the world) among some people I've played with is the idea of the Githyanki Crafting Guild.

See, when githyanki reach a certain level, their lich-queen kills them and devours their soul, right? So githyanki really really really don't want to reach that magic level. But they're also Proud Warrior Race Guys, as TVTropes (not gonna link) would call them, so most of them don't want to just stay home and bake cookies when they get close to their functional maximum level. So they need a way to burn off their XP. Enter the Githyanki Crafting Guild, or GCG for short. The GCG view crafting items (and burning XP in the process) to be a matter of life and death, and they don't particularly care what they're crafting, so long as they can burn XP in the process. (This is, incidentally, where many of the useless items that show up on loot tables come from. This whole line of thought started with a discussion of "who the hell would spend time and XP crafting a Trident of Fish Command?!") So while certainly not every magic item out there is made by the GCG, they certainly account for a substantial portion of the magic items running around in the world.

Now, of course, crafting takes gold as well as XP, and so the GCG does need to make sure that their magic items can get sold somehow (they have to recoup the gold portion of their crafting costs so that they can keep crafting other things). So they have, shall we say, a vested interest in making sure that no upstart "master thief in training" (or whatever) decides that they can just disrupt the GCG's ability to sell things through magic marts. So when a magic mart that carries GCG products does get robbed, the proprietor of the magic mart just needs to tip off the GCG, and then it's only a matter of time before a full-scale raiding party of high-level githyanki get sent out to make an example of some two-bit Blackguard who's looking to prove how Eeeeeeeevil he can be by shaking down a shopkeeper (or whatever).

Again, it's all kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it doesn't make substantially less sense than a lot of the other elements of the D&D universe, and my group's always had fun with the idea.


The problem is that PCs robbing the shop is not the only issue with the magic mart. There is also the whole problem of the magic mart charging full price, despite it not being in their interests to do so. For example, if the town is under attack and the only hope is the PCs.

I like the DM credit line approach to items. The magic mart exists for the players only, and not the characters. In universe almost nobody sells magic items, and crafters are few and far between. When a player wants an item, they ask the DM and it then somehow ends up in their character's hands. It might be for sale locally (assuming that the character has money, or is prepared to rob the shop), or it may just turn up as treasure.
This way, it is impossible for the characters to steal items and not pay, because even if they do the DM will still credit their account! They may also debit it some for the encounter, but beating up an old man for his family sword is unlikely to be a particularly challenging encounter, so not much unless the robbery was also supposed to be an encounter. It certainly doesn't need to be a representative challenge of the haul.
This also fixes the problem of the townsfolk not aiding the PCs. When the players go to the magic mart before defending the town, the characters simply ask the town for assistance. Through DM fiat, the items that the town can provide the characters with are the items that the players asked for.

One really cool thing about this is that it does allow players to be a lot more fluffy with what they actually do with their treasure. They do not need to convert it into cash to buy items, (and indeed cannot) so are free to do other things with it. The cleric is free to donate everything that they will not use to their church, without hindering their item advancement. A rogue can be a master thief who is always sneaking off with the best jewels without screwing with the party mechanically. The wizard is free to crash the salt economy, and use the procedes to build himself a tower, but this does not allow the player to buy scrolls of wish.

Another cool thing about this is that it allows the DM to be far more liberal with wealth. Dragons can be sitting on huge piles of gold, and adamantine doors are not massive blocks of combat stats. The king of a region would not sell their castle and buy 1 million gp worth of magic items to keep themself safe, meaning that PCs could actually realistically interact with far wealthier parties than themselves.

Essentially it is seperating player cash from character cash. Mecanically impacting items have to be bought with player cash, where roleplay items do not.

That's a good way to do it, honestly, and I've played under GMs who did things similarly. I know some folks feel like it "breaks immersion," but when it's handled well, I feel like it's an improvement overall. (And let's face it, the item economy in D&D 3.5 is pretty much hopelessly borked anyway, so the more we can do to move the handling of it offscreen, the better.)

[ace rooster]

One trick you can use to convince your players not to rob the place is have them get hired to go and hunt down someone who'd previously stolen from a shop. One target that is half their level. They are paid well for it by an "Interested Party" who represents the guild.

Once the players realize they can get five times what the thief did to hunt a thief down they should understand its not a good idea to rob these places.

Hmm, I know players who would respond to this by then robbing the magic mart again, framing somebody they want rid of, and then also getting paid to track them down. :smallamused: I might be one of them

[Nettlekid]

Hmm. People have been giving a lot of good answers, but most of them involve discussing how to mitigate the threat of robbery or handle it after the fact. Which don't really answer the question of how you'd defend the mart against attack. I'd also appreciate if people have any actual spells or items they'd recommend using (like the suggestions of Arcane Lock, Alarm, Forbiddance, Secret Chest, Genius Loci, etc that people have said) rather than more vague answers like "Some defensive spells."

For example, here's one possible defense mechanism I've thought of thanks to a few suggestions in this thread. The shopkeeper has an Energy Transformation Field keyed to Animate Objects, probably cast from a scroll with a high CL. CL 16 would probably suffice, if you built the room so that it's a bit separated from the rest of the building and it was no larger than 20x20 ft. If you're threatened, activate an Immediate action magic item that you're wearing with a required spell of level 6 or higher (perusing the MIC it looks like the Fireflower Pendant with its Energy Immunity prereq is the least fussy option, but other options include Skin of Power Damping, Collar of Healing, Water Cloak, or Repelling Gauntlets if you can get an Urban Druid to make the scroll of Animate Objects as 5th level instead.) The item's activation will be absorbed by the Energy Transformation Field and activate Animate Objects on the entire room, which will in turn trigger a Contingent Spell of Dimension Door that targets the Animated room, objects up to its carrying capacity (all the magic items) and one willing ally (the shopkeeper) taking them all to a predetermined location probably about 800 feet straight down in a prepared, hollowed-out part of the earth. The result is that the would-be thief is left standing in a patch of empty space, with the entire shop having vanished from around him, at the drop of an Immediate action on the part of the shopkeeper. The only recurring cost would be to place a new Dimension Door Contingent Spell on the Animated room, which is a mere 4000 or so gold, which is a fairly low cost. All the other preparation would be one-off, so it would have a high initial cost but then be reliable from that point on.

(Actually, I just realized that it might be simpler to have the Animate Objects spell on the room be Permanencied and bypass the whole Energy Transformation Field thing. Then you can just have a codeword or something to trigger the Contingent Dimension Door.)

That's the kind of defense that I think would suit a shopkeeper with access to ~CL 12 magic, not even as a caster but just with connections sufficient to make preparations. So similar suggestions to that would be appreciated, with a description of the specific spells/items/effects being used.


A running semi-gag (it's tongue-in-cheek, but it's still a relatively real part of the world) among some people I've played with is the idea of the Githyanki Crafting Guild.


This is actually hilarious. I love this concept.

[Darth Ultron]

I know that's a pretty tall order, and I myself can't think of a properly adequate solution, which is why I'm wondering if someone here can.

There some mundane solutions.

1. The shop is mostly for show. It has a couple low level items and spell components, but nothing else. Anything else must be ordered from ''somewhere'' and will arrive in 3-5 days. This is simple: there is nothing in the shop to steal.

2, The shop is not a ''quaint little wooden shoppe'', but it is built into a high security place like a major temple or the lords castle.

3. Secret rooms and spots and hide-holes and more. All the good stuff is well hidden and in dozens of spots or more. It will take a thief hours to find them all...

4. A good mundane vault can be very hard to get into, for example a single rope goes down 50' to a vault. Without magic, most thieves can only grab a couple items and climb out with them and that will take a ton of time.

5. Guards. Other then ''just guys'' there are tons of monsters that can be used...and plenty of plants.

The rule of ''no custom magic items'' is a bit harsh as there would be lots of items ''not in the books''. But still a magic shop must be, by the rules, a ''special place'' out side of the normal NPC rule limits, just like any other encounter location would be, by the rules. After all, by the rules, most shops could only have a couple items and even then would take up like 75% of a places ''wealth limit''.

So you can assume at the very least 3rd level and lower magic effects on a magic shop. And that opens up a ton of magic effects. Alarm, Arcane Lock, Glyphs of warding and such are all right in the Core Rules along with dozens of others. And beyond 3rd level you get: Leomund's Secret Chest, Dimensional Anchor, Magic Circle against Evil & Chaos, and either a constant invisibility purge, glitterdust, or faerie fire. Walls of Force lining all walls, roofs and floors to prevent ethereal entry.

Though it does depend on if you just ''want to make a protected shop'' or ''feel you must oddly follow the rules''. But even if you ''follow the rules'' it does still get crazy.....after all your shop owner will need to be both a user of magic and rich....so that throws ''the rules'' out the window.

[Vizzerdrix]

Every half decent specialty shop has regulars. Customers who get special deals or first dibs on anything extra special. Those are their defence. The 20th level sorcerer who has been going to that shop since she first learned to cast and owes her life to the old man that only charged her half price for that healing belt way back in the day. The fighter needed a special material for his weapon that the shop keeper tracked down and got at a discount. Or the rogue and/or wizard who brokers their goods through him.

A good shop keeper knows how to turn customers into friends. A great shop keeper makes sure they reach high levels.

[lord_khaine]

The way I always figured....

The merchant you greet isn't the real merchant. The merchant you greet is a front. The actual merchant is underground somewhere, at the edge of the range of the ring gate (and, in fact, is feeding several different fronts that way). The actual merchant is a wizard.

This really is a brilliant setup. So far i think its the best suggestion.

How i have normally run it, is that noone actually has unnused magical items just lying around. Instead the players goes to either local temples or artificer guilds, and hires someone to make what they want.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Also, remember that even low-level shopkeepers are going to be guild members, so although they themselves may be weak, they have the backing of a powerful organization.

Little late to the party.. but I concur with this. One group I had robbed and murdered a merchants guild member in a major city in his sleep and raided his magic mart.. I let them do it, but then for some reason they complained when a high level adventuring party captured them to bring them back to the city. . . Funny thing about that.. the merchants guild could afford powerful adventurers.

[Jack_Simth]

This really is a brilliant setup. So far i think its the best suggestion.

How i have normally run it, is that noone actually has unnused magical items just lying around. Instead the players goes to either local temples or artificer guilds, and hires someone to make what they want.

Not originally mine... I don't recall who I first heard it from, though.

[Tvtyrant]

Not originally mine... I don't recall who I first heard it from, though.

I believe Tippy advocates something similar, although in his case the magic items are made on demand by the application of Wish as an SLA.

[Jack_Simth]

I believe Tippy advocates something similar, although in his case the magic items are made on demand by the application of Wish as an SLA.

Yes, but
a) Tippy is used to a LOT more optimization at a gaming table.
b) That method requires you answer a different question: If you've got simulacrums that can make you anything you desire instantly... why are you bothering to run a shop?

[John Longarrow]

OP,

The best defense a shop can have is a reputation. If you know there's security and you know getting away with stolen goods has a very low probability and you know their retribution will be out of proportion to the crime, you tend not to mess with them.

Realistic example.

If everyone in town knows a shop is really a front for a gang and that the gang will kill you, your family, your pets, your friends, and burn down the church you go to if you try and rob their store, people don't rob the store. Its just not worth it. Once everyone knows this reputation the gang doesn't really need to spend a lot on "defense". They just need to be willing to retaliate and HARD.

Same should go for a shop that has access to high level divinations, lots of money, and high level clients. Mess with the shop and their friends come looking for you. That means the only people willing to try and rob them are generally very low in power and really desperate. This isn't the kind of person who can overcome basic protection, let alone really threaten the shop owner. Such an individual is likely to be charmed, taken in the back, and geas'ed into working for the shop for life.

[Jowgen]

I personally run it kind of like how this thread largely suggests.

My magic mart francise stores have models and silent image versions of items, with labels that detail their stats. Players can come in and examine whether they like the look and stats. If they like an item and can pay for it, the shopkeeper notifies the local branch division (with the buyers name, description, etc.) and they teleport the item over.

Incidentally, I have it that the size and general revenue of the store limits what kind of items they can simply request to have sent over. Can't go to some backwater store and buy a Holy Avenger. Sure, you can look at the ledger and let them know you want to buy one, but for that you better get your ass to a bigger branch. Magic item thieves in my world thus only really target non-franchise stores, which obviously only carry really basic stuff.


But as for defense, I think there is nothing like an overkill nuclear deterrent. The shopowner holds a dead man switch linked to a Voidstone explosive at all times. If somone tries to steal something, he lets go of the swtich and gets teleported out as the store and everything in it is turned to dust. The guild insurance covers the dama... rebuild.

[Aetis]

A running semi-gag (it's tongue-in-cheek, but it's still a relatively real part of the world) among some people I've played with is the idea of the Githyanki Crafting Guild.

See, when githyanki reach a certain level, their lich-queen kills them and devours their soul, right? So githyanki really really really don't want to reach that magic level. But they're also Proud Warrior Race Guys, as TVTropes (not gonna link) would call them, so most of them don't want to just stay home and bake cookies when they get close to their functional maximum level. So they need a way to burn off their XP. Enter the Githyanki Crafting Guild, or GCG for short. The GCG view crafting items (and burning XP in the process) to be a matter of life and death, and they don't particularly care what they're crafting, so long as they can burn XP in the process. (This is, incidentally, where many of the useless items that show up on loot tables come from. This whole line of thought started with a discussion of "who the hell would spend time and XP crafting a Trident of Fish Command?!") So while certainly not every magic item out there is made by the GCG, they certainly account for a substantial portion of the magic items running around in the world.

This actually makes a lot of sense.

[Aetis]

It never made any sense to me to have a traditional shop that has bunch of expensive magical items for sale.

Other than the problems of security, many magic items are fairly niche in what they do. It makes no sense to make an item if no one is going to buy it. (exception being the random items you find in loot - explained by the whole githyanki thing)

Magical items are very expensive, and it only really made sense that they would be made per order.

[Tvtyrant]

Yes, but
a) Tippy is used to a LOT more optimization at a gaming table.
b) That method requires you answer a different question: If you've got simulacrums that can make you anything you desire instantly... why are you bothering to run a shop?

I believe all of these methods ask the second question, as infinite money turns on rather early in the game and even without it a wizard can deal with all of their needs without spending a dime.

Agreed, Tippy's world is not much like normal D&D.

[barakaka]

For a mid level shop, I'd use:

A bell on the door frame so when people walk in, it rings.
A catalog on the front of the shop showing all of the shop's items and prices.
A guard at the front who tells people they must buy a Contract of Nepthas (Complete Mage) and sign it before entry which bars them from attempting to rob/swindle the store, attempting to return a product, or killing anyone within. Failure means permanent blindness.
A storefront/lobby area with a locked door and a barred front counter with an opening for making the transaction.
A side room for testing out items. Precautionary measures like stone walls would be required. Sculptor's Slime could be used to create this.


If you're against this, then a Voluminous Vault (Sharn) could be used. If it's busted into, then all items within are lost.