Arcana Cleric multiclassing: Advice. (Into Theurgist Wizard?)

[rudy]

Hey All,

I have an Arcana Cleric who is soon to be level 9 with the following stats:

Variant Human
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 20, Cha 8
Feat: War Caster

The character has been very effective with Spirit Guardians, and cantrips boosted by being able to add wisdom bonus to damage. He disdains weapons (leaving his hand free), and generally tanks with Half-Plate and Shield. Spirit Guardians + Dodge action has proven extraordinarily potent.

The party is of six characters, and I am the ONLY primary caster. (There is an Eldritch Knight, a Paladin, and a part-Ranger).

I'm wondering where to go past 9th level, and have three options I'm weighing.

One: Stay with Cleric. This would seem to be the most obvious answer. I don't really think any of the Cleric spells past 5th level ones are critical, however, especially with the ability to up-cast so many of my useful spells. The Arcana Cleric doesn't get anything else until 17th level, and the base cleric abilities in that range are "meh".

Two: Multiclass into Wizard. This has the advantage of continuing my spells per day at full tilt while diversifying what spells I have access to for more utility that the party lacks. Because of my low (for a Wizard) intelligence, I would not be using save-based Wizard spells, but rather be complimenting my Cleric casting with defense and utility casting. The school archetypes have several nice options as well. Might actually do the Theurgy tradition from UA if it is permitted (both useful, and something pleasing about combining an Arcana Cleric with a Theurgist Wizard).

Three: Multiclass into Eldritch Knight. Giving up full spells per day would definitely hurt, but this has several nice bonuses. +1 to AC from "Armored", Action Surge and finally some critical spells at 3rd level (Shield, Absorb Elements) definitely makes this the best "survival" option.

Any thoughts on this decision, or things I might be missing, would be appreciated.

[SharkForce]

given you're not going to be grabbing a large number of wizard spells anyways and probably won't need the spells known to be high, and provided you have sufficient charisma, i would recommend that you instead multiclass into sorcerer. there are a number of interesting things you can do with metamagic on a cleric.

[King539]

Keep going Cleric. Clerics are great.

[D.U.P.A.]

given you're not going to be grabbing a large number of wizard spells anyways and probably won't need the spells known to be high, and provided you have sufficient charisma, i would recommend that you instead multiclass into sorcerer. there are a number of interesting things you can do with metamagic on a cleric.

Charisma of 8 is not sufficient. But for that you play Favored soul anyway.

[SharkForce]

Charisma of 8 is not sufficient. But for that you play Favored soul anyway.

ah, didn't notice he had posted his attribute. yeah, that's unfortunate... sorcerer imo goes much better than wizard.

well... wizard seems like a decent pick. not sure what defensive and utility spells you're hoping to pick up, but i suppose it could be alright. however, if you do get to that last arcana cleric ability, you're giving up an absolutely amazing ability.

[Princess]

If you are going to eventually reach higher levels, the Arcana Cleric final ability is far more amazing than anything you'd get from level 11 as a wizard. Grabbing a couple levels of Divination wizard gives the very nifty portent ability, but unless there are specific low level wizard spells (2nd and 3rd) you want to sling around, pure cleric is probably best for now.

[rudy]

Thank you for the input, all!


If you are going to eventually reach higher levels, the Arcana Cleric final ability is far more amazing than anything you'd get from level 11 as a wizard. Grabbing a couple levels of Divination wizard gives the very nifty portent ability, but unless there are specific low level wizard spells (2nd and 3rd) you want to sling around, pure cleric is probably best for now.
Honestly, the most crucial things for me are Shield and Absorb Elements; I'm constantly and intentionally on the front lines due to Spirit Guardians and other spells.

Hmm... maybe I'll consider just a one level dip in wizard, then? It would get me those spells that I could get the most use out of (Shield, Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, Expeditious Retreat come to mind), give me the additional cantrips that I do so love, keep my spells per day on full, and only set myself one level back in terms of that 17th level ability, IF we ever get that high (which, honestly, I don't think that we will).

[GorogIrongut]

While I agree for the most part with the need to stay cleric, if you're going to go for 1 level into wizard for those spells... Then you might want to consider three levels of Eldritch Knight. You would still preserve your level 17 Cleric ability of awesomeness. But you'd become MUCH more tanky than going wizard while still getting access to those spells you wanted... and the fighter chassis.

[rudy]

While I agree for the most part with the need to stay cleric, if you're going to go for 1 level into wizard for those spells... Then you might want to consider three levels of Eldritch Knight. You would still preserve your level 17 Cleric ability of awesomeness. But you'd become MUCH more tanky than going wizard while still getting access to those spells you wanted... and the fighter chassis.

I'm not actually sure it would be "much" more tanky.

Consider 3 levels of Fighter versus 1 Wizard / 2 Cleric

The fighter route gives me 4 more hp (taking the average hp). It beats the wizard level by 2, and each of the cleric levels by 1.

It gives me +1 AC. Nothing to sneeze at, certainly.

It gives me Action Surge, and Second Wizard. Action Surge is amazing, no doubt; Second Wind is less critical because I'm constantly using my bonus actions for other things already (Spiritual Weapon, Healing Word). 1d10+3 isn't going to be impressive at the level we're talking about.

It gives me heavy armor, which I would not use because I have +2 Dex Bonus and 9 Strength.

On the other hand, it sets me back by a full level of spells in my spell progression (missing out on 2 levels of spells per day), gives me fewer 1st level spells (not critical), sets me back 2 levels more in ASI progression on the Cleric levels (meaning I will be 2 levels further from getting the Cleric 12 one) AND ensures I will never get the Cleric 19 one (in the unlikely event we get that high). Finally, I wouldn't get the 17th level ability until level 20, at which point the game is over, more or less.

So, on initial analysis, I would definitely choose Wizard 1 over Eldritch Knight 3, but I will think on it further. I appreciate the input!

[GorogIrongut]

That's okay. We're all different in our preferences. If it were me, I'd place the options in this order of strength:
1. Staying an Arcana Cleric without multiclassing. Level 20 all the way. Arcana Clerics get everything you could want or need without dipping into other classes.
2. Doing two levels of wizard as an abjurer. This would give you the ward, the spells and an unimpeded spell progression.
3. Or do two levels of wizard as a theurge (knowledge because it helps you be a skill monkey). Arcana clerics have a notoriously weak Channel Divinity. Going theurge/knowledge means that you will have a very versatile channel divinity. So useful that you'll have to save it for the right moment... as you could very easily use it willy nilly.

Now remember, these are my personal preferences...
4. Three levels as a Shadow Monk. This one's from way out in left field and yes it hampers the spellcasting. But it makes the character so much more versatile. The real problem here is that you'd then be tempted to take it farther for the level 6 ability. I wouldn't personally recommend it for you... but for me it would be great.
5. 3 levels in Eldritch Knight.
6. 1 level in Wizard just for the spells.

[rudy]

Good ideas; I would disagree on the Abjurer wizard, though. With my INT that would be a ward of 5 hp once a rest.

If I wanted to use a core tradition, it would probably be necromancy, actually. Grim Harvest works both thematically and mechanically well with Spirit Guardians, and would amount to a MUCH higher hp shield on average than the abjurer ability.

Theurgist is also good, though I actually wouldn't care so much about the Knowledge channel; the built-in theurgist channel to add +2 to the DC of a spell would be much more useful most of the time (again, for Spirit Guardians in particular, because it does not limit it to on one save).

[GorogIrongut]

Good ideas; I would disagree on the Abjurer wizard, though. With my INT that would be a ward of 5 hp once a rest.

If I wanted to use a core tradition, it would probably be necromancy, actually. Grim Harvest works both thematically and mechanically well with Spirit Guardians, and would amount to a MUCH higher hp shield on average than the abjurer ability.


Necromancy is actually a pretty good idea. But remember, it's not a shield. You just recoup your actual hit points... and only when you kill. As far as I'm aware, Grim Harvest cannot take you above your hp maximum.

As for an abjurer, you're correct that it would only be a 5 hp shield. But in my mind it is much the same as the above, just different game mechanics. Whether you're topping up hit points or you're recharging your arcane ward through the casting you were already going to do.

Perhaps it's a difference in style of gameplay. I tend to be a more interactive caster. If all your character does is punch your enemies in the face with Spirit Guardians, then you're correct, necromancy is probably the better of the two options. Don't forget to keep a bag of chickens nearby for when you face a BBEG.

[Biggstick]

Stay Arcana Cleric. Delaying access to those sweet Wizard spells (at Cleric 17) would be a huge mistake. You've already made it this far (level 9) without Absorb Elements, you can make it the next 8 levels.

The payout will be way higher then the right now benefit of a Wizard level.

[rudy]

Stay Arcana Cleric. Delaying access to those sweet Wizard spells (at Cleric 17) would be a huge mistake. You've already made it this far (level 9) without Absorb Elements, you can make it the next 8 levels.

The payout will be way higher then the right now benefit of a Wizard level.
Maybe, but again, I think it's highly unlikely that we will make it to level 17 in this campaign.

And, if we do, 17th level is so far away I just can't bring myself to be that concerned with it. If I was building a character at that level, I would absolutely agree with you, and wouldn't even be considering a dip.

At the moment, I am leaning toward the 1 level dip in Wizard. It's not just the absorb elements / shield, but also the little things like being able to ritual Comprehend Languages, Alarm, Identify, etc., which no one can currently do. Even a familiar. As roleplaying goes, love the extra cantrips of Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, etc. I think I'd rather have all of those things for 8 levels than get the (admittedly awesome) 17th level Arcana Cleric ability one level earlier.