Death and exhaustion

[othaero]

I thought about trying a new houserule. If you go unconscious and you get brought back up you gain one level of exhaustion. I also thought about making it instead a DC 5>10>15>20 CON save everytime you go down. Thoughts? Criticism?

[Dalebert]

It's probably fine if you want to add some challenge to your games. My beef with it would be the tedium. I used to be a big fan of finer simulation and realism but I've learned to appreciate the simplicity of 5e.

[Spore]

https://media.giphy.com/media/1M9fmo1WAFVK0/giphy.gif

It slows the game down, makes players take less risks (which might be a good thing) and helps with nothing. D&D's strongsuits is NOOOOOT its simulatory accuracy, so why try to build on it?

You have an exaggerated game about heroes and monsters. Adding in realism is like trying to make Twilight's vampires fit into the World of Darkness/Vampire the Masquerade.

[Gastronomie]

It's not a rule that can be used in all games, but if you want a gritty feel I suppose you could use it effectively.

Then again, unless you want a really gritty feel, it's not a good idea. It really depends on the setting, and will also require beforehand agreement from the players.

[Kryx]

It's a common houserule to add a level of exhaustion each time a player gets taken to 0. It resolves the wack-a-mole issues of 5e and hit points not going below 0.

I use it and recommend it.

[Kane0]

It's a common houserule to add a level of exhaustion each time a player gets taken to 0. It resolves the wack-a-mole issues of 5e and hit points not going below 0.

I use it and recommend it.

Ditto.

My group uses it starting at about level 3 or so (after the squishy into levels). It lends weight to being dropped to 0, especially multiple times in a day.
I'd avoid the save though, adds time for no particular reason.

[Dalebert]

One concern I have about it is 5e was engineered around not needing a dedicated healer to be viable and in that process healing magic got nerfed. It's intentionally crappy and rarely worthwhile to do as a prevention measure as it tends to come nowhere close to keeping up with damage, particularly for action economy. It seems primarily intended as an emergency measure, e.g. to get someone up who's dropped to zero so they can get back into the game. You drop a Healing Word on someone who's low, odds are fairly good a single hit will still drop them wasting the slot and the bonus action and Cure Wounds only heals an average of 2 more at the cost of a full action.

This seems like it would encourage pre-healing in an ineffective manner. Has anyone actually adjusted the healing in their games to go along with this ruling?

The bulk of healing is expected to come from rests. I picture a party wanting to use healing far more sparingly and take more rests if you make healing even less effective. You might say "I want grittier games. I'm not giving them the opportunity to rest." That's fine, but if I'm role-playing a character honestly in a situation where death is much more likely and the DM says I don't have a chance to rest in a game with non-viable healing magic, I'm much more likely to must abandon the adventure in the interest of self-preservation. I tend to play my character as if they realize they only have one life instead of just thinking of themselves as a disposable and replaceable piece of paper who exists for the amusement of creatures on another dimension.

[Gastronomie]

One concern I have about it is 5e was engineered around not needing a dedicated healer to be viable and in that process healing magic got nerfed. It's intentionally crappy and rarely worthwhile to do as a prevention measure as it tends to come nowhere close to keeping up with damage, particularly for action economy. It seems primarily intended as an emergency measure, e.g. to get someone up who's dropped to zero so they can get back into the game. You drop a Healing Word on someone who's low, odds are fairly good a single hit will still drop them wasting the slot and the bonus action and Cure Wounds only heals an average of 2 more at the cost of a full action.

This seems like it would encourage pre-healing in an ineffective manner. Has anyone actually adjusted the healing in their games to go along with this ruling?Guy has a point. Without the Healing Surges from past editions, the problem is even worse.

[Dalebert]

Guy has a point. Without the Healing Surges from past editions, the problem is even worse.

Heads up. I'm really bad about editing my posts once or twice just a few minutes after posting. Already added some stuph since you quoted. Sorry. :smallconfused:

Let me put it another way. We get inspired for fantasy games by books and movies where characters do seemingly impossible things and seem incredibly heroic but ultimately generally succeed despite incredible odds. When mechanics seems unrealistic, I think that's the reason and it's intentional. You make the mechanics trend away from that for the sake of gritty realism and you may get... well, realism and not heroics. Just be careful what you wish for because you might get it.

[Gastronomie]

Heads up. I'm really bad about editing my posts once or twice just a few minutes after posting. Already added some stuph since you quoted. Sorry. :smallconfused:

Let me put it another way. We get inspired for fantasy games by books and movies where characters do seemingly impossible things and seem incredibly heroic but ultimately generally succeed despite incredible odds. When mechanics seems unrealistic, I think that's the reason and it's intentional. You make the mechanics trend away from that for the sake of gritty realism and you may get... well, realism and not heroics. Just be careful what you wish for because you might get it.Ah, no, I do that all the time too. Don't we all?

The bolded part, I 100% agree with, and I believe the current rules are fine as they are for most games. As mentioned in my first post in this thread, "if you want a gritty feel I suppose you could use it effectively", but "then again, unless you want a really gritty feel, it's not a good idea".

[othaero]

I did think the save was too much. I'm probably going to allow my players to "heal" their "knock-down" exhaustion with a short rest.

[Dalebert]

I want to remind folks that I said it's fine if that's the type of game you want. I'm mostly just disagreeing with encouraging it to be standard house rules.


It's a common houserule to add a level of exhaustion each time a player gets taken to 0. It resolves the wack-a-mole issues of 5e and hit points not going below 0.

I use it and recommend it.

I don't think it's that common for people to want a very gritty and realistic game versus a more cinematic and heroic game. I think I personally would have much less fun in such a game but I certainly wouldn't want to deny others their preferences. I'm just saying be aware of what it's going to get you and be sure it's what you want.

[Gastronomie]

I did think the save was too much. I'm probably going to allow my players to "heal" their "knock-down" exhaustion with a short rest.Eh, if you're going to change a rule to be gritty while also changing another rule to be less gritty, you're prolly better off going with original PHB rules.

Rule changes should be done to give off a certain "feel" or "tone" for the campaign, not to make something more "realistic". This is because sense of reality ≠ entertainment. If you want a gritty feel, the originally proposed homebrew rule would be potentially effective and fun, but if that's not what you're going for, simply using the original rules would be probably the better choice.

[Kryx]

One concern I have about it is 5e was engineered around not needing a dedicated healer to be viable and in that process healing magic got nerfed. It's intentionally crappy and rarely worthwhile to do as a prevention measure as it tends to come nowhere close to keeping up with damage, particularly for action economy. It seems primarily intended as an emergency measure, e.g. to get someone up who's dropped to zero so they can get back into the game. You drop a Healing Word on someone who's low, odds are fairly good a single hit will still drop them wasting the slot and the bonus action and Cure Wounds only heals an average of 2 more at the cost of a full action.
I use the exhaustion rule, healing surges, and buff healing spells to be worthwhile in combat.
Cure wounds = 2d6+ability mod, 1d6 at each higher level.
Healing Word = 2d4+ability mod, 1d4 at each higher level
Mass healing word = 2d4+ability mod, 1d4 at each higher level

Numbers based on my spell balance sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216)


I don't think it's that common for people to want a very gritty and realistic game versus a more cinematic and heroic game.
It's not about gritty vs cinematic. It's about whack-a-mole. Whack-a-mole isn't a fun playstyle imo. Having a paladin that can bring players to 1 hp to essentialy perma-tank a boss isn't fun. Same for druid goodberries (even if they take an action to feed to another player).

The discussion of gritty vs realism is a different topic imo.

[LordVonDerp]

You'll need better ways of removing exhaustion, but other than that it should work.

[mgshamster]

Kryx, do you still set it up so it's one level of exhaustion removal per long rest?

[FreddyNoNose]

I thought about trying a new houserule. If you go unconscious and you get brought back up you gain one level of exhaustion. I also thought about making it instead a DC 5>10>15>20 CON save everytime you go down. Thoughts? Criticism?

Sounds great

[Coffee_Dragon]

I came to this thread to read about death! Where is it

(My group's house rule is that you're incapacitated for one turn after being brought up from 0 hit points.)

[Kryx]

Kryx, do you still set it up so it's one level of exhaustion removal per long rest?
Yup. If players are falling unconscious more than once in a day then there are other problems going on. There should only be perhaps 2 super challenging encounters per day and I wouldn't expect each PC to fall unconcious in each one.

Or if they do fall unconscious in every big combat then they have to take a day or two to rest - which makes total thematic sense.

[mgshamster]

Yup. If players are falling unconscious more than once in a day then there are other problems going on. There should only be perhaps 2 super challenging encounters per day and I wouldn't expect each PC to fall unconcious in each one.

Or if they do fall unconscious in every big combat then they have to take a day or two to rest - which makes total thematic sense.

Do you use the exhaustion mechanic elsewhere? For example, frenzy barbarian, chase scenes, long distance running it swimming, or anything else?

I tend to use exhaustion mechanics elsewhere and I'm considering using your house rule here, but I don't want it to stack up too quickly.

[Kryx]

Do you use the exhaustion mechanic elsewhere? For example, frenzy barbarian, chase scenes, long distance running it swimming, or anything else?

I tend to use exhaustion mechanics elsewhere and I'm considering using your house rule here, but I don't want it to stack up too quickly.
Normal circumstances which means extremely rarely. I've never had a chase scene or long distance run/swim, but I probably would apply it after a certain distance.

For Frenzy Barbarian it has problems that I've argued requires the bonus action cost to be removed otherwise it stacks horribly with GWM, PAM, TWF, or really any fighting style the Frenzy Barb wants to do. Probably not a great idea to discuss in this thread as it's gone several pages before. With that in mind the Exhaustion cost is totally worth it.
Here is my exact wording:

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can enter a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you gain an additional action on each of your turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only) action. When your rage ends, make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. If you fail, you suffer one level of exhaustion. Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a short or long rest, the DC resets to 10.

[mgshamster]

Normal circumstances which means extremely rarely. I've never had a chase scene or long distance run/swim, but I probably would apply it after a certain distance.

For Frenzy Barbarian it has problems that I've argued requires the bonus action cost to be removed otherwise it stacks horribly with GWM, PAM, TWF, or really any fighting style the Frenzy Barb wants to do. Probably not a great idea to discuss in this thread as it's gone several pages before. With that in mind the Exhaustion cost is totally worth it.
Here is my exact wording:

Agreed on the potential for discussion. I was just looking for your opinion, and that's exactly what I got. Thank you.

(To note, my opinion of frenzy seems to match yours fairly well).

[Grod_The_Giant]

One concern I have about it is 5e was engineered around not needing a dedicated healer to be viable and in that process healing magic got nerfed. It's intentionally crappy and rarely worthwhile to do as a prevention measure as it tends to come nowhere close to keeping up with damage, particularly for action economy. It seems primarily intended as an emergency measure, e.g. to get someone up who's dropped to zero so they can get back into the game. You drop a Healing Word on someone who's low, odds are fairly good a single hit will still drop them wasting the slot and the bonus action and Cure Wounds only heals an average of 2 more at the cost of a full action.

This seems like it would encourage pre-healing in an ineffective manner. Has anyone actually adjusted the healing in their games to go along with this ruling?

The bulk of healing is expected to come from rests. I picture a party wanting to use healing far more sparingly and take more rests if you make healing even less effective. You might say "I want grittier games. I'm not giving them the opportunity to rest." That's fine, but if I'm role-playing a character honestly in a situation where death is much more likely and the DM says I don't have a chance to rest in a game with non-viable healing magic, I'm much more likely to must abandon the adventure in the interest of self-preservation. I tend to play my character as if they realize they only have one life instead of just thinking of themselves as a disposable and replaceable piece of paper who exists for the amusement of creatures on another dimension.
I like it as a houserule; I pair it with short rests restoring all hit points, though. (And Healer's Kits letting you spend hit dice). That keeps the need for a dedicated healer low, while still allowing for "real" wounds.

[Specter]

Will definitely be using this on my next war campaign.

[Breaklance]

It's a common houserule to add a level of exhaustion each time a player gets taken to 0. It resolves the wack-a-mole issues of 5e and hit points not going below 0.

I use it and recommend it.

While reading someone else's game journal I found him using a house rule that when you went down and was brought back you rolled on a table for side effects.

Don't know how permanent they were but adding stuff like "now your leg is lame -5 move speed" could also add grittyness to your games. I'd probably make it so rolling a 1 would result in a permanent injury like you lost an eye or a few fingers, a 20 is no injury and everything else in between are temp penalties that recover over X time or until you find a doctor.

[JackPhoenix]

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can enter a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you gain an additional action on each of your turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only) action. When your rage ends, make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. If you fail, you suffer one level of exhaustion. Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a short or long rest, the DC resets to 10.

Interesting. As it is Attack action, you can use it to trigger BA attacks like TWF or PM while using your regular action for other stuff like Dodge. It's like super Cunning Action. And with 2 level Fighter dip for Action Surge, you can make 7 attack/round, 8 if party member cast Haste on you at level 7. 9 at level 10 with 3 Ranger levels for Horde Breaker

8d10+1d4+8 x Str mod (let's say +3 without free ASI)+18 (rage x9)+90 (GWM, only with vuman can you get both feats). Ouch. You won't hit with all that, but if you do, 178.5 damage on average...

On the other hand, you'll be losing only one attack from all that without the houserule.

[Kryx]

Your provided scenario requires a dip and is only possible for 1 encounter out of the day so it heavily distorts the actual math. The actual number of attacks at 5th level would be 2 + 1 from frenzy. Or at 7th with a 2 level fighter dip 2+2+1 = 5 attacks with action surge, not 7 attacks.

It acts exactly like Haste's extra attack and by my rules wouldn't stack.

As I mentioned above I think turning this thread into a berserker thread is a bad idea so I'm going to avoid further discussing it. Instead I'll link you to the previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503277-Frenzied-Rage-Fix-Idea&p=21313943#post21313943).

[tieren]

(My group's house rule is that you're incapacitated for one turn after being brought up from 0 hit points.)

I like this approach to the whack-a-mole problem, particularly if you roleplay the incapacitation well and not just treat it as a penalty box.

[CaptainSarathai]

I like it. My problem with "whack-a-mole" isn't just during fights, but also the fact that the party sometimes treats hitting Zero as a routine thing, "nah, it's cool - we'll stabilize you if you go down, and then just short rest and burn a little healing on ya, you'll be good as new for round 2"
Having a guy get floored doesn't stop them, it's not necessarily an emergency.

This, on the other hand, makes sure that when they drop, they're gimped for the rest of the day.

What I like about 5e is that you can make really gritty campaigns, and they're still not over-wrought, complex messes. Rules I've used in a truly "hardcore" campaign:
- Longer Rests (SR = 6hrs sleep. LR = 1 day off)
- Slow Healing
- Drop to 0 is Exhaustion
- Auto-fail DSTs each round
- Dead is Dead, no reanimation
- Track encumbrance, ammo, rations, and expenses accurately (I see this get handwaved a lot)
- As DM, limit gold and potions as rewards
- Use the climate rules to your advantage

The result is a very slow, deliberate pacing. In practice, it doesn't actually slow your campaign that much, and it gives the players more DownTime for their characters. What it does do, is open the door for DMs to do more to the party than just harass them with monsters.
This first time I did this with my party, we played a low-magic "spark is dead" campaign; you could not start fires, even magically. Fire had to be carried with you, and fuel was a resource. The warmth in the world was fast fading, and it was very cold. The campaign was about surviving a long journey, similar to the 'Banner Saga' game. Travel segments became as intense as combat encounters.

The next campaign we played didn't use those rules to start, but "felt silly" and so we added them back in. It feels wierd now to be a player in a group that doesn't use them.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[Human Paragon 3]

I think this is interesting. I am a huge fan of the exhaustion rules and use them as a stick to motivate player action frequently. Players really dread levels of exhaustion. The effects are nasty and there's no fast fix to them. They're one of the only things that really lasts in a system where HP damage is completely ephemeral and even ability reductions heal on a short rest.

Nothing puts the fear in players more than layers of ever-more crippling side effects. But nicely, it's all reversible, unlike hamfisted things like level drain. I've never used it exactly like this, but I'd be interested in trying it out. I imagine people would become much more cautious in combat and healing before 0 would become much more common. It might even be preferable to some players to stay down once they're at 0.

[pwykersotz]

This first time I did this with my party, we played a low-magic "spark is dead" campaign; you could not start fires, even magically. Fire had to be carried with you, and fuel was a resource. The warmth in the world was fast fading, and it was very cold. The campaign was about surviving a long journey, similar to the 'Banner Saga' game. Travel segments became as intense as combat encounters.

The next campaign we played didn't use those rules to start, but "felt silly" and so we added them back in. It feels wierd now to be a player in a group that doesn't use them.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

That all sounds pretty fantastic!