Let us surge!

[Dalebert]

I finally made a wild mage and played him tonight in In Volo's Wake. He's a Yuan-ti with one level of bard. Twinning Healing Word, Dissonant Whispers, and Tasha's is great!

I love the idea of a wild magic sorcerer. They feel suboptimal in a number of ways compared to the other subtypes but I'm okay with it for the fun and flavor potential. The big downside is that damnable clause that says the DM "can" decide that you wild surge after Tides of Chaos. If your DM is stuffy about that, it suddenly feels like you've taken a drastic downturn in features.

I was very frustrated for a few of the mini-games with zero surges until I had a chat with the DM about Tides of Chaos and how it's pretty crappy if it's just a once a day feature. Also, wild surges will almost never happen from pure chance and I will not even feel like a wild mage. He suddenly seemed on board and started letting me wild surge every time I used it after casting a spell. The game got SO much more fun, even though a couple of the surges were bad. I sucked health out of the entire party and like one enemy at one point and I missed a turn on the astral plane.

How have your experiences been with it? I play mostly AL and I'm going to be in the habit of having a little chat with DMs before I play this character to find where they stand on Tides of Chaos.

[Gastronomie]

I heard from a friend that in his games, he makes the Wild Mage player roll a d6 every time he casts a spell of level 1 or higher.

If he rolls 5 or 6, the ability recharges, and something random happens.

Even if he rolled 1 to 4, something random happens.

He said it was the best way to balance the class while keeping it fun, and without making it overpowered (advantage all day can be pretty powerful).

[Dalebert]

He said it was the best way to balance the class while keeping it fun, and without making it overpowered (advantage all day can be pretty powerful).

I don't think it's that great and a wild mage would feel very subpar in such a game. I wouldn't play one. You have to consider some things.
* You're gambling every time you surge. Yes, the chart has more good things than bad and many relatively harmless neutral things but you are risking some pretty bad things. You will inevitably pay a price for that advantage. In the one game this character was in I missed a turn on the Astral Plane (is adv worth missing your turn? I'd argue not. You got to roll twice to hit once instead of rolling twice to possibly hit twice.) and another time I did 7 dmg to the entire party. That's a heavy price to pay.
* Even when something "good" happens, it's high contextual. I got a free no-concentration levitate on myself but I didn't need it at the time. *shrug*
* They're paying a high opportunity cost if you look at the consistently good abilities of other subtypes like natural armor and extra hp or free disengage every sorcerer spell and so forth, eventually having a NON-CONCENTRATION FLIGHT SPEED, etc. I felt a need to take a class that would give me some sort of armor (bard this time). A typical draconic sorcerer has an AC of 15 or 16 while a wild mage has 12 or 13.
* Their later abilities are pretty meh. They're pretty front-loaded.

[Gastronomie]

a wild mage would feel very subpar in such a game.That's putting it rather harshly; at least I wouldn't feel subpar if the DM let me roll a surge every time I casted a spell.

The way you say it, it sounds like you're trying to make Wild Magic Sorcerer an optimized option. And while that's your freedom of choice, at least I would never play a Wild Magic Sorcerer trying to make it "strong". I would play it for, and solely for, "entertainment". I don't care if I'm subpar*. Allowing a surge for every spell is enough to make it "fun", and the thing you're seeking in here is "mechanical effectiveness", which is a very diffferent thing.

*And I'm not; I believe based on personal experience that Sorcerers themselves are, contrary to popular belief (most of this argued by people who have never even played the actual class before), a very solid choice of class that can be effective in all sorts of situations if created right - even without subclass abilities. I don't think they need that much buffing to be strong, apart from maybe increasing the number of Spells Known at higher levels.

Thus, it seems our proposals are fundamentally different in objective from mine (or rather, my friend's that I 100% agreed with). I'm not going to force my opinions on you, since you have the right to pursue mechanical effectiveness in your games, just like I have the right to pursue sheer entertainment and don't care about optimization that much, but nonetheless I believe a lot of people will be satisfied by just allowing them to roll more on the d100 table.

Different people have different solutions. If your idea worked for you, you should keep on using it, but other people could be satisfied with less powerful options as well.

[Dalebert]

That's putting it rather harshly; at least I wouldn't feel subpar if the DM let me roll a surge every time I casted a spell.

I just realized I misread the rule adjustment. I didn't get that he's having you automatically surge every time. That's not as bad. I'm less in disagreement but still disagree.


The way you say it, it sounds like you're trying to make Wild Magic Sorcerer an optimized option.

They will never be. A character who causes random events in a completely uncontrollable manner is the opposite of optimized. If you play it, it's for the flavor and fun of that and not for optimization.

And more importantly, they already are a sub-optimal option. They already pay a heavy price for being able to get advantage a lot. There are other classes who can get advantage a lot with minimal price. Think rogues and bonus action hides. Think warlocks with invisible familiars that take the aid action every round. I'd argue Tides of Chaos is their main defining feature (that's actually reliable) and they don't have many. They don't need to be made even less optimal.

I think they're fine as-is IF the DM makes Tides of Chaos trigger a surge every time. I don't want my character to be completely random all the time. Then why would I even need to be there to make decisions? I like that they're a cautious gambler.

"I really need this next spell to hit. Do I want to help ensure success right now at the risk of possibly making something very bad happen?"
* brief instant of anxiety *
* Grimaces in anticipation and uses Tides of Chaos on a 5th level Witchbolt. *

[ad_hoc]

Look at it this way: The Wild Magic Sorcerer is an early detection warning for bad DMs.

If the DM doesn't let you use Tides of Chaos then, yes, you're not going to have fun. But then, you probably wouldn't be having fun with other characters either because of the DM.

Personally I like the clause because sometimes wild surges will bog down the game/pacing. I had a wild mage in a game and had Tides trigger a surge 95% of the time after casting a spell. That final 5% of the time I didn't because of character spotlight issues (another character was doing something important for them out of combat and having a surge would put all eyes on the wild mage, again).

[Gastronomie]

I think advantage on something every time you cast a level 1 or higher spell is too powerful as a "level 6 ability", but I get what you're saying. Maybe the best solution would be:

Roll on surge table every time you cast a level 1 or higher spell, without d20
Re-charging Tides of Chaos: Every time you cast a level 1 or higher spell, roll d6. If 5 or 6, you re-charge Tides of Chaos. From level 8, you recharge on 4-6, and at level 12, 3-6. From level 16 you recharge on 2-6, and at level 20 you recharge every time you cast a level 1 or higher spell.

That way it scales. This seems like a solution a lot of people will be happy with, since you mentioned how the class is "front-loaded".

[ad_hoc]

I think advantage on something every time you cast a level 1 or higher spell is too powerful as a "level 6 ability", but I get what you're saying. Maybe the best solution would be:

Roll on surge table every time you cast a level 1 or higher spell, without d20
Re-charging Tides of Chaos: Every time you cast a level 1 or higher spell, roll d6. If 5 or 6, you re-charge Tides of Chaos. From level 8, you recharge on 4-6, and at level 12, 3-6. From level 16 you recharge on 2-6, and at level 20 you recharge every time you cast a level 1 or higher spell.

That way it scales. This seems like a solution a lot of people will be happy with, since you mentioned how the class is "front-loaded".

I would walk away from that game.

Wild Sorcerers are fine as they are. They really don't need any nerfs.

[Gastronomie]

I would walk away from that game.

Wild Sorcerers are fine as they are. They really don't need any nerfs.'d you mean Nerfs?

[Dalebert]

I had a wild mage in a game and had Tides trigger a surge 95% of the time after casting a spell. That final 5% of the time I didn't because of character spotlight issues (another character was doing something important for them out of combat and having a surge would put all eyes on the wild mage, again).

Absolutely. That makes sense. I'd be fine with 95% ish.


I think advantage on something every time you cast a level 1 or higher spell is too powerful as a "level 6 ability", but I get what you're saying.

I guess we're just going to continue to disagree on that. The price for it is high. But your "solution" didn't address one of my main beefs that the wild magic sorcerer is already random enough. Having a surge with every spell removes what small agency I still have. A wild surge is a price I have to pay, a gamble I have to make, if I want advantage. It's already balanced and my agency is deciding "Do I need advantage right now?" and "Am I willing to pay the price?" Those decisions are a big part of the fun.

Picture a scenario. I'm low on HP but so is the red dragon. If I hit with that lvl 5 Witchbolt, I might finish him but it will SUCK if I miss and blow the slot for nothing and then I might die. On the other hand, a point-blank fireball would drop me as well and possibly some party members.

"Are yah feeling lucky, punk? Well, are yah?"

If I surge every time I cast a spell, then I'm just going to completely disregard factoring that gamble into my decisions because it's now completely out of my control. I might even resort to just safely throwing cantrips as much as possible. BORING.

[Gastronomie]

Ah, so by "nerf" you mean how they would trigger most of the times in the games of a generous DM. That makes sense. And yeah, I more or less agree with that.

Well, the thing is, while talking about this matter, my opinion has began to shift towards you guys' side. It wouldn't be too powerful to let them re-charge every time they cast a spell... (Look, someone in the Giantip forums changed their opinion during an argument!!)

[Dalebert]

It's kind of cool how they have it now. A wild mage has the ability to alter probability but there is karma in the universe. They twist reality in their favor like a rubber band but then reality snaps back and might pop them in the butt!

It seems intended that a wild surge is relatively unlikely UNLESS they twist reality. Then it becomes inevitable. A correction must be made.

[Gastronomie]

It's kind of cool how they have it now. A wild mage has the ability to alter probability but there is karma in the universe. They twist reality in their favor like a rubber band but then reality snaps back and might pop them in the butt!

It seems intended that a wild surge is relatively unlikely UNLESS they twist reality. Then it becomes inevitable. A correction must be made.That seems an interesting way of looking at it.

Arguably, casting spells also bends the laws of reality, though... but then again, maybe casting a spell itself is not really "bending reality" in a world where all these Caster classes exist.

[Dalebert]

Arguably, casting spells also bends the laws of reality, though...

Absolutely. I should have been more specific and said they bend probability but that sounds too sciencey language and not fantasy language.

Sidenote: Does anyone else thinks their 6th level feature is weak and overpriced? A tiny d4 adjustment for the cost of quickening a spell? Or for the cost of a 2nd level spell slot? Yikes! Seems like a d6 for 1 spell point might be useful. As it is, I seriously may never use this ability. I was in a game where the sorcerer was using it to prevent crits and the DM didn't stop him but I know that shouldn't work.

[Tanarii]

My rule of thumb is the Sorc should get at least one automatic Wild Surge every combat. If they don't want to risk that, they shouldn't use thier Tides ability. That's typically 4-6 uses per day, by level 4 or so.

Other than that I go for rule of fun. For example, I usually won't trigger one if a caster is trying to Subtle Spell from hiding ... unless a surge giving him away would be hilarious. To me as a DM at least. :smallamused:

[Rysto]

I think that your problem with the Wild Magic Sorcerer is that you're playing it as a blaster. Tides of Chaos and Bend Luck are far more powerful when applied to saving throws with nasty consequences.

[ad_hoc]

I think that your problem with the Wild Magic Sorcerer is that you're playing it as a blaster. Tides of Chaos and Bend Luck are far more powerful when applied to saving throws with nasty consequences.

Yeah, Tides of Chaos makes the Wild Sorcerer very sturdy as they can get advantage on their saving throws. They can also get advantage on ability checks which makes them great for social situations. They won't be making a lot of attack rolls so it isn't as great for that. Yes, you could use it on a cantrip or something like Witch Bolt but that doesn't seem great. I'd rather have it ready for a saving throw most of the time.

Bend Luck is great. You get to see the roll before using it. It can make enemies fail saving throws or allies succeed. A d4 doesn't sound like much but when it is the difference between success and fail it is huge. It is not an ability to use often, but is very nice to have on those essential rolls.

[Tanarii]

Picture a scenario. I'm low on HP but so is the red dragon. If I hit with that lvl 5 Witchbolt, I might finish him but it will SUCK if I miss and blow the slot for nothing and then I might die.
If you're up casting witchbolt, then you'd have already died long before then. Because it indicates you were silly enough to waste a known spell on witchbolt, and from that it follows you'll be making enough poor tactical decisions your demise is assured. :smallsmile:

[SharkForce]

Sidenote: Does anyone else thinks their 6th level feature is weak and overpriced? A tiny d4 adjustment for the cost of quickening a spell? Or for the cost of a 2nd level spell slot? Yikes! Seems like a d6 for 1 spell point might be useful. As it is, I seriously may never use this ability. I was in a game where the sorcerer was using it to prevent crits and the DM didn't stop him but I know that shouldn't work.

no. i consider it the most powerful ability the wild sorcerer has. it can alter an enemy's saving throw, which is an extremely rare effect, and you don't need to use it until after you see the roll. heighten is disadvantage for 3 SP, and locks out other metamagics, and has to be used before seeing the saving throws, and is still considered to be a strong pick for a sorcerer by many people.

[Kryx]

Bend Luck is incredibly powerful. With it the Wild Sorcerer can become the best CC'er in the game.

That said I do think Wild Magic should be emphasized more. Though that's true for all Sorcerer archetypes. I know you said you primarily play AL, but if anyone else is interested check out my Sorcerer Rework (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SJkLv-WO).

I also think stinking cloud should replace fireball for 07-08 on the table. Much funnier and you cant TPK a whole party.

[Dalebert]

Good points. I don't think bend luck is as bad. I think I am hung up on using it like cutting words for attacks when it's much better as a modifier to saves.


I think that your problem with the Wild Magic Sorcerer is that you're playing it as a blaster.

Straight from Personality Traits on my sheet: "Fireball? You expect me to taint my soul with such sloppy peasant magic?"

I have Witchbolt in tier 1 and so it's the example that came to mind but I doubt I'll still have it later. It's good single-target damage when upcast to lvl 2 when you consider that you can gain advantage on the attack and then get Tides of Chaos back immediately from a wild surge triggered by the Witchbolt. This character is not built to be blasty at all. He'll have some but he's much more a CCer and buffer build and he refuses to learn AoE dmg spells.


Yes, you could use it on a cantrip or something like Witch Bolt but that doesn't seem great. I'd rather have it ready for a saving throw most of the time.

Like I said though, if you use it for Witchbolt, you surge and get it right back so you still have it for saves.

[Tanarii]

Like I said though, if you use it for Witchbolt, you surge and get it right back so you still have it for saves.
You've still used a level one slot for witchbolt, and wasted your tides on it to boot. Mechanically, you're better off using Tides on something useful then casting magic missile. Or doing the same thing you were doing with Witch Bolt with a Lightning Chromatic Orb.

Otoh if you like the visual of force lightning for your first few levels (say 1-4) it's thematically fun.

[Dalebert]

Witchbolt in a vacuum is a weak spell, but you have to consider it with wild magic. When you twin it and can keep dealing damage to two different enemies plus get advantage on one of the rolls for just a 1st level slot and a sorcery point, it's not bad. I had some assurance of hitting due to adv and then don't have to keep hitting after. That said, Chromatic Orb is probably better. I totally forgot about it because I'm not generally a fan, but it's probably good to have at tier 1. I'll probably go ahead and switch it out. The versatility is obviously nice too.

[Tanarii]

Witchbolt in a vacuum is a weak spell, but you have to consider it with wild magic. When you twin it and can keep dealing damage to two different enemies plus get advantage on one of the rolls for just a 1st level slot and a sorcery point, it's not bad. I had some assurance of hitting due to adv and then don't have to keep hitting after. That said, Chromatic Orb is probably better. I totally forgot about it because I'm not generally a fan, but it's probably good to have at tier 1. I'll probably go ahead and switch it out. The versatility is obviously nice too.
no, it's just weak no matter what.

You can't twin it because that would take two actions to use every following round. It's two separate spells you cast, so each requires the action.

Advantage with witch bolt & maintaining it is still worse than magic missile or advantage on chromatic orb, followed by cantrips. (Edit: although the difference is minimal before 5th level.)

Witch Bolt is pretty much a trap option. Sadly, because I really like it thematically and I've tried to find ways to make it relevant. It's not as bad as true strike, but it's very bad.

(totally derailing your thread lol)

[Socratov]

the fun of the class hinges on its recharging tides and on the surges, if only for comedic effect (which it often is).

That said, I made it so that isntead of surging with a d20 my WMS surged with a d4 (later became d6 IIRC, only counts for leveled spells), which makes surges happen more often. Besides, wildmagic surge is not always beneficial even when it seems so...

As for tips, keep to utility and save-or-suck spells. Get a good damaging cantrip (maybe take EB with Spellsniper for ignoring cover and doubling ranges), but save your leveled spells for disabeling and battlefield shaping.

Also, if you are into using quicken and regular spells or actions, dread the auto quicken surge: it destroys your action economy as you made your regular action useless.

[Dalebert]

You can't twin it because that would take two actions to use every following round. It's two separate spells you cast, so each requires the action.

I'm not defending Witchbolt as being good but you're mistaken about how twinning works. It doesn't turn a spell into two spells. It takes a spell with only one target and allows it to work on two simultaneously. So instead of hitting one target with the bolt and making it take dmg with your action each round, you're making it hit two targets simultaneously and making both targets take dmg with your action each round. In practice, I often found one target would die right away and so it seemed rare that I would actually be dishing damage twice but that is how twinning works and it makes Witchbolt at least theoretically marginally better than a one-shot dmg spell.

[CantigThimble]

I'm not a huge fan of the auto-surge or surge whenever you want it ways of running things so here's what I came up with:
10% for casting a spell of 1st level or higher
10% if Tides of Chaos is on cooldown
10% if the spell was meta magicked

The sorcerer has some control over it and it's likely to happen a few times a day, but the party isn't just going to get bombarded by surges every fight unless the rolls go crazy.

[famousringo]

no, it's just weak no matter what.

You can't twin it because that would take two actions to use every following round. It's two separate spells you cast, so each requires the action.

Advantage with witch bolt & maintaining it is still worse than magic missile or advantage on chromatic orb, followed by cantrips. (Edit: although the difference is minimal before 5th level.)

Witch Bolt is pretty much a trap option. Sadly, because I really like it thematically and I've tried to find ways to make it relevant. It's not as bad as true strike, but it's very bad.

(totally derailing your thread lol)

"... to target a second creature in range with the same spell."

Twin spell doesn't cast a spell twice, it casts one spell on two valid targets. As long as those targets stay valid, using your action will apply damage to both.

Witch Bolt has a lot of issues, but Twin isn't one of them.

On topic, my wild sorcerer 5/arcane trickster 3 has surged three times now and it has yet to materially effect the game beyond recharging Tides. Two of those surges were in the last session, so my DM is making an effort to make it more common. Early on, we were both concerned about the dreaded Fireball TPK. It's not a factor anymore, but he's got plenty of other things to worry about and I've basically learned to forget about the feature.

You made a good move by multiclassing. Those bard spells will take a lot of pressure off your limited spells known and the armor proficiency means you won't need to spend resources on Mage Armor. Getting bonus actions that don't cost sorcery points is great, too.

[ruy343]

I was very frustrated for a few of the mini-games with zero surges until I had a chat with the DM about Tides of Chaos and how it's pretty crappy if it's just a once a day feature.

How have your experiences been with it? I play mostly AL and I'm going to be in the habit of having a little chat with DMs before I play this character to find where they stand on Tides of Chaos.

So... I've always read the feature differently...

The text of the Tides of Chaos ability says: "Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge Table immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. You then regain the use of this feature." Strangely, the text is a bit ambiguous on what conditions the DM might have you take to regain the feature: it doesn't appear explicitly linked to when a wild magic surge actually goes off - it could happen at any time the DM says.

When I read it, I interpreted it to mean that the player could ask the DM to roll on the table on purpose (a risky proposition) and that by doing so, they would be able to regain the use of the feature. My players never abused it (I have good, mature players), but it meant that the players could choose to activate surges (At the cost of using a spell slot to cast a spell), and also have control over when they got advantage, allowing them to choose attack-roll-based spells and feel comfortable doing so.

I encourage others to adapt their house rules to this version: you'll get more surges (the player will want to recharge the ability), and they'll be able to use their features and not feel underpowered.

[Socratov]

So... I've always read the feature differently...

The text of the Tides of Chaos ability says: "Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge Table immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. You then regain the use of this feature." Strangely, the text is a bit ambiguous on what conditions the DM might have you take to regain the feature: it doesn't appear explicitly linked to when a wild magic surge actually goes off - it could happen at any time the DM says.

When I read it, I interpreted it to mean that the player could ask the DM to roll on the table on purpose (a risky proposition) and that by doing so, they would be able to regain the use of the feature. My players never abused it (I have good, mature players), but it meant that the players could choose to activate surges (At the cost of using a spell slot to cast a spell), and also have control over when they got advantage, allowing them to choose attack-roll-based spells and feel comfortable doing so.

I encourage others to adapt their house rules to this version: you'll get more surges (the player will want to recharge the ability), and they'll be able to use their features and not feel underpowered.

To be honest I have always thought that the Tides od Chaos ability has been worded in an interesting manner. I mean, I get the basic idea but it's not exactly clear on teh first read-through. What's worse, it does not even carry an example (which would make things a lot clearer).

[ad_hoc]

So... I've always read the feature differently...

The text of the Tides of Chaos ability says: "Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge Table immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. You then regain the use of this feature." Strangely, the text is a bit ambiguous on what conditions the DM might have you take to regain the feature: it doesn't appear explicitly linked to when a wild magic surge actually goes off - it could happen at any time the DM says.

When I read it, I interpreted it to mean that the player could ask the DM to roll on the table on purpose (a risky proposition) and that by doing so, they would be able to regain the use of the feature. My players never abused it (I have good, mature players), but it meant that the players could choose to activate surges (At the cost of using a spell slot to cast a spell), and also have control over when they got advantage, allowing them to choose attack-roll-based spells and feel comfortable doing so.

I encourage others to adapt their house rules to this version: you'll get more surges (the player will want to recharge the ability), and they'll be able to use their features and not feel underpowered.

I don't understand what you are saying.

Here is how it works:

1. Gain advantage on an attack, ability check, or saving throw.
2. Cast a spell of 1st level or higher.
2a. Immediately roll on the wild surge table.

[Socratov]

I don't understand what you are saying.

Here is how it works:

1. Gain advantage on an attack, ability check, or saving throw.
2. Cast a spell of 1st level or higher.
2a. Immediately Wait for the DM to tell you to roll on the wild surge table.

fixed that for you. the feature says the the DM can tell you to roll on the wild surge table and that when he does, you immedeately regain the use of Tides of Chaos. (even if I like your version better)

[Tanarii]

I'm not defending Witchbolt as being good but you're mistaken about how twinning works. It doesn't turn a spell into two spells. It takes a spell with only one target and allows it to work on two simultaneously. Totally does n... *checks* ... Oh ****. You're right. Hmmm. Maybe I was thinking of 3e?


fixed that for you. the feature says the the DM can tell you to roll on the wild surge table and that when he does, you immedeately regain the use of Tides of Chaos. (even if I like your version better)But the DM still has to say it immediately after you've cast the spell. Not three rounds later.

[Dalebert]

So I had that conversation with the DM tonight before a game where I was planning to play my wild mage sorcerer. He seemed largely unfamiliar with Tides of Chaos and only knew of the 1 in 20 surges. When I asked if he would typically have me surge after ToC, he mumbled something like "maybe" and then something about the point-blank fireball. So I took that as a "no" and switched characters immediately.

This was a tier 1 though with mostly lvl 1 characters. I'll make a point to ask him if he's willing to lighten up in tier 2 when that fireball isn't as TPK-inducing.


...but he's got plenty of other things to worry about and I've basically learned to forget about the feature.

Yikes. I'd be having some serious buyer's remorse about choosing the subtype if the primary defining feature of the wild sorcerers just essentially vanished altogether.


Those bard spells will take a lot of pressure off your limited spells known and the armor proficiency means you won't need to spend resources on Mage Armor. Getting bonus actions that don't cost sorcery points is great, too.

Exactly my thoughts. It felt mandatory to get AC help somehow as spells known are just too pathetic to take Mage Armor. You end up with a 1st level character who is a one-hit wonder at level 1. One level of bard comes front-loaded with a lot of bang for the dip.

[ruy343]

But the DM still has to say it immediately after you've cast the spell. Not three rounds later.

Basically, yeah, that's how I read it. Of course, if a player were to ask for it, and I were DM, I would allow the player to recharge the ability without argument (since surging is so risky). I'm fairly permissive.

However, if I were to re-write the ability, I would allow it to re-charge whenever they cast a spell and inform me that they choose to roll on the surge table to recharge. However, I would then limit it to a number of recharges per day equal to the players level/2 (rounded down). This would allow the player to get more surges out there, and also have some modicum of control over their tides of chaos ability, which comes out more often as they grow more powerful, fitting the flavor.

[ad_hoc]

Basically, yeah, that's how I read it. Of course, if a player were to ask for it, and I were DM, I would allow the player to recharge the ability without argument (since surging is so risky). I'm fairly permissive.

However, if I were to re-write the ability, I would allow it to re-charge whenever they cast a spell and inform me that they choose to roll on the surge table to recharge. However, I would then limit it to a number of recharges per day equal to the players level/2 (rounded down). This would allow the player to get more surges out there, and also have some modicum of control over their tides of chaos ability, which comes out more often as they grow more powerful, fitting the flavor.

That results in fewer surges, not more.

[Tanarii]

That results in fewer surges, not more.Depends on the DM. But even by my baseline (1/encounter or 4-6 / day) that's fewer surges starting at level 2 (when they have 3 spells that can trigger it). And it sounds like Dalebert and probably many others would consider my baseline restrictive. By level 10 when the sorc has most of his slots you're looking at 15 recharges per day if you assume every slot recharging the ability.

BTW Dalebert, this thread is making me reconsider my judgement of when to trigger the surges as possibly too restrictive. Especially your view that having it trigger essentially 100% of the time is what makes using the ability a tactically interesting choice in the first place.

Edit: If we assume every level 1+ slot recharges the ability, and include the first free use, here's how many times a wild mage gets advantage per day. Looking at it that way, it certainly makes the Wild Mage seem a far more powerful subclass than if it's limited to 4-6 times per day. (Or less)
Level 1: 3 Tides
Level 2: 4 Tides
Level 3: 7 Tides
Level 4: 8 Tides
Level 5: 10 Tides
Level 6: 11 Tides
Level 7: 12 Tides
Level 8: 13 Tides
Level 9: 15 Tides
Level 10: 16 Tides
Level 11: 17 Tides
Level 12+: +1 use per 2 levels.

Edit2: And of course I'm forgetting that Sorcs can turn Spell Points in Spell Slots, so it's potentially more.

[SharkForce]

Edit2: And of course I'm forgetting that Sorcs can turn Spell Points in Spell Slots, so it's potentially more.

can. but shouldn't. sorcery points are way more awesome than spell slots.

1 SP can make friendly fire friendly. or, it can be half of a spell slot.

3 SP can double your haste spell, and therefore your concentration. or, it could be a level 2 spell slot.

2 SP can let you throw a regular spell in the same round that you activate a sunbeam. or, it could be a level 1 spell slot.

so, quite frankly, if someone is *that* hard up for advantage, i think it's fine to let them get advantage.

[Dalebert]

However, I would then limit it to a number of recharges per day equal to the players level/2 (rounded down).

That's a severe nerf--max 1/day at 3rd level vs. about twice your level surges by the RAW. Definitely would switch characters immediately if this was our pre-game chat. The point of it is you pay the price every time so it doesn't need to be any more limited.

They're generally not that risky; certainly not after tier 1. It's just a case of getting a particularly bad one at a particularly bad time but that just comes down to having a really bad unlucky streak and those unlucky streaks happen in all games with or without adding the wild surge element. On average, they balance out and tend to be helpful on the whole which is why they are a class feature. Folks seems to obsess over the fireball, but a fireball isn't that deadly after tier 1 and it takes 50 surges before one is even likely to happen so it's not even that risky at tier 1. I can get a sense of the DM's attitude if they kind of wince or use words like "risky" when I ask them about their attitude about wild surges. That's a red flag for me to switch characters because they're going to nerf my character both in terms of power and flavor.

PCs have some agency in these risk factors too. When I know my surges might result in localized bad things, I can make decisions to try to stand clear of teammates when I cast and expect a surge due to ToC. Also, I am pointedly playing a race that has magic resistance. It's shouldn't be the DMs job alone to manage risk. We should be rewarded or punished for good or bad decisions as players.

[famousringo]

Yikes. I'd be having some serious buyer's remorse about choosing the subtype if the primary defining feature of the wild sorcerers just essentially vanished altogether.
If I could do it all over again, I'd either skip sorcerer or plan to multiclass from the start. Sorcerer is the Best Supporting Actor of classes, and while its performance may impress, it needs a headline star to get butts into the theatre.



Exactly my thoughts. It felt mandatory to get AC help somehow as spells known are just too pathetic to take Mage Armor. You end up with a 1st level character who is a one-hit wonder at level 1. One level of bard comes front-loaded with a lot of bang for the dip.
Sleep can cover an awful lot of ground for the first three levels. You don't have enough spell slots to cast every encounter anyway, so I didn't mind the Mage Armor tax too much.

Around level 4 is when I started having encounters where I had plenty of slots, but no appropriate spell to cast. I'd end up twinning Firebolt and feeling like a gimped warlock.

Multiclass makes it all better. With rogue levels I have lots of utility and mobility that doesn't involve spells at all, so I always feel I can contribute. And if I happen to have The Right Spell™ to solve the current situation, well that's just ducky.

[Dalebert]

I do think DMs should generally allow the surges when ToC is used but that they have good reason at times to say it doesn't happen based on circumstances, e.g. pacing, to avoid removing the spotlight from another character who's shining at that moment, etc. I would say a good rule of thumb is to never say "no" twice in a row and aim for at least 2/3 surge on ToC.


Edit: If we assume every level 1+ slot recharges the ability, and include the first free use, here's how many times a wild mage gets advantage per day.

Just to be completely clear, that's the upper limit of what they could ever get in the most ideal situations possible. It will likely never happen even with a very permissive DM. I mean, how often do you even used all your spell slots in a day? It's great when you use your very last spell slot to down the very last boss in a dungeon but most of us are trying to ensure we have enough for what is likely a tough fight at the end of the session.


can. but shouldn't. sorcery points are way more awesome than spell slots.

I can't second this hard enough. So true!

I can practically guarantee that I will NEVER convert sorcery points to spell slots in the entire career of this character, barring some bizarre and unlikely unforseen circumstance. Meanwhile, I tend to be very liberal in the opposite direction. I tend to refresh sorcery points between battles to save me bonus actions in battle. The reason you play a sorcerer over a wizard is for metamagic. The end.

One exception to this is sorcerer / warlocks who, when they get the opportunity for extra rests, can save up some extra spell slots for later and still have a full sorcery pool. I have one of those but not going that route with my wild mage.

[Tanarii]

They're generally not that risky; certainly not after tier 1.It's potentially fatal for a Sorcerer until level 5 (Con 14) to 6 (Con 12). Even after that, it's a huge chunk of hit points. And that's not even counting what it'll be doing to your party members.

Counting the average adventuring days needed to reach level 5, and the number of surges (not counting rolling 20s) triggered if you were to use all your spells:
adventuring days needed: 1 to level 2, 1 to level 3, 2 to level 4, 2 to level 5
* slots for those levels, 2 at 1, 3 at 2, 6 at 3, and 7 at 4 = 2+3+12+14 = 31 surges
1-.9831 = 46.5% of all wild mages dying before level 5.

edit:

can. but shouldn't. sorcery points are way more awesome than spell slots.

<snip>

so, quite frankly, if someone is *that* hard up for advantage, i think it's fine to let them get advantage.
Generally speaking, agreed on the first point. Unless they're facing a particularly long adventuring day. But it's possible was my point. And I didn't mean to imply they'd do it for advantage, just that if they were choosing (for whatever reason) to trade in SP for spells, then they'd renew Tides of Chaos.

edit2:

I do think DMs should generally allow the surges when ToC is used but that they have good reason at times to say it doesn't happen based on circumstances, e.g. pacing, to avoid removing the spotlight from another character who's shining at that moment, etc. I would say a good rule of thumb is to never say "no" twice in a row and aim for at least 2/3 surge on ToC.Yes, I agree with the pacing & spotlight thing, even if you were being a permissive DM those are still excellent reasons not to trigger a surge.


Just to be completely clear, that's the upper limit of what they could ever get in the most ideal situations possible. It will likely never happen even with a very permissive DM. I mean, how often do you even used all your spell slots in a day? It's great when you use your very last spell slot to down the very last boss in a dungeon but most of us are trying to ensure we have enough for what is likely a tough fight at the end of the session.My players almost always use all their spell slots in a day. That's also typically what I see in AL sessions.

[ruy343]

That's a severe nerf--max 1/day at 3rd level vs. about twice your level surges by the RAW. Definitely would switch characters immediately if this was our pre-game chat. The point of it is you pay the price every time so it doesn't need to be any more limited.

So... If I was your DM, you'd be mad for putting a cap on the boost that I was willing to give you? Interesting. Let me explain my rationale:

As a game designer (unpublished as yet), I can foresee that adding these sorts of changes to the rules could have unforeseen consequences, but unfortunately I don't have time to do an analysis to see whether or not it's all that broken. I'll hand it off to one of my min-max players sometime to work out. My gut tells me that the restriction might not be necessary, but that I need to test it out.

Here's an example of why I might need to look into such a limit: a player with such options available to them might find that converting their higher level spell slots to lower-level ones to get more surges/tides of chaos might be a broken strategy due to spell interactions that I had previously not forseen (having advantage on every attack spell you cast would be pretty nice, no?). Since lower level slots are significantly cheaper in sorcery point cost than higher level slots, they could be surging 30+ times per day with this revision by level 7, which is why I felt that a cap on the number of surges (and free advantage) should be considered. Alternately, it might just make the game too silly, and the wild mage's turn's might take too long and limit other peoples' enjoyment.

That said, perhaps my original proposal of recharge limits was a bit limiting; but again, I'm just spitballing. However, this does allow the DM to pass off the need to make the call on whether the surge should activate, and allow the player to make a choice about when to surge and such, which they might find more fun (and take a load off the DM).

[Dalebert]

It's potentially fatal for a Sorcerer until level 5 (Con 14) to 6 (Con 12).

Lots of things are potentially fatal in tier 1 but this is not especially one of them. You're assuming the worst of all possible circumstances combined--lots of party members clustered around the wild mage (something the mage can consciously adjust for and frankly SHOULD, particularly at very low levels), everyone failing their save (14 vs. 28 dmg avg), ignoring any possible resistance from various sources, etc. And keep in mind, you may very well be dropping enemies at the same time. If you drop a lot of enemies, they're DEAD.

THIS --> Party members with low HP who take lots of dmg are at 0 and still alive. <-- THIS

If you drop enemies in a tough fight and just drop a couple party members to 0 and can heal them, even this, the arguably worst possible scenario could end up overall beneficial. You just can't do some math based on the worst circumstances possible and say half of all wild mages will be dead by tier 2 based on the possibility that they wild surge with EVERY SINGLE SPELL and that they cast EVERY SINGLE SLOT from level 1 to level 5. It's fallacious reasoning.

And even with a very permissive DM, it's not likely at all to get ToC back with every casting. The one circumstance that's ideal for it is attack spells where you can use ToC on the spell itself. Save-based or utility spells will require that you've already used it before the casting and that's a risky choice as most will want to have it available for a scary saving throw or an acrobatics check while climbing a precarious cliff face and so forth. Or else you just blow a spell slot in an inefficient way to get it back like casting a buff you don't particularly need, but that's a resource spent to get it which balances out.


My players almost always use all their spell slots in a day. That's also typically what I see in AL sessions.

I can't dispute that, obviously. All I can say is it seems quite bizarre. I have maybe a dozen AL characters ranging from tier 1 to tier 4, mostly spellcasters, and I think I've used all my slots maybe once. Most fights aren't that challenging and I don't pointlessly take the risk of blowing unnecessary slots in them. I more likely convert some slots to SPs to twin cantrips, lower level spells and such.


So... If I was your DM, you'd be mad for putting a cap on the boost that I was willing to give you?

I didn't say "mad". I haven't gotten angry with any DMs yet. I just switched characters. When my primary feature is based on the DM's whim about whether and how often I get it, unlike most class features where it's spelled out and clearly measurable, I might switch characters because I've concluded that a wild mage is a subpar and boring character in your game.

Imagine if I played a draconic fire-based sorcerer and you said you would only let me cast half my level worth of fire spells (rounded down) a day because you think the charisma bonus to damage is OP. Meanwhile, I built the character using up a lot of spells known on fire spells and I'm left with limited and sub-optimal spells to cast that have nothing to do with the flavor of the character I created.

"DOH!"


However, this does allow the DM to pass off the need to make the call on whether the surge should activate, and allow the player to make a choice about when to surge and such, which they might find more fun (and take a load off the DM).

If you feel the need to do that based on every possible contrived situation that might happen, okay. I can understand you not wanting to seem arbitrary in just saying "no" a lot to a player bending over backwards to game the system (poorly, IMHO). I think I would feel okay about it if your limit wasn't so drastic, like maybe my level worth of surges. I might even appreciate the empowerment of that control.

[Tanarii]

Lots of things are potentially fatal in tier 1 but this is not especially one of them. You're assuming the worst of all possible circumstances combined--lots of party members clustered around the wild mage (something the mage can consciously adjust for and frankly SHOULD, particularly at very low levels), everyone failing their save (14 vs. 28 dmg avg), ignoring any possible resistance from various sources, etc. And keep in mind, you may very well be dropping enemies at the same time. If you drop a lot of enemies, they're DEAD.I'm assuming two circumstances which are common for a Sorc in tier 1: no fire resistance, and failed Dex save. Also using all your spell slots, which before level 5 isn't unreasonable at all IMX.

But still, let's change the assumptions slightly: ~ 2/3 of available slots cause surges, and Dex 14 (+2) vs Sorc DC 13, or 50% failure rate.
(1-.9820)*0.5 = 16.6% of all Wild Mage Sorc PCs will self-immolate before level 5.

I'm not talking about any other party members here. I'm not talking about what happens to enemies. I'm just talking about 16.6% of PCs in a specific sub-class killing themselves using their standard class feature as intended. That's not nothing.

Now, the chance of killing yourself to the point of needing a raise dead is considerably less. That means you need a failed save and to be level 2 or lower. It's probably reasonable to assume you'd use all 2 or 3 of your slots. But you're still only looking at (1-.985)*.5 = 5% of PCs perma-killing themselves.

Edit: Personally, I think it's worth a DM handwaving away the fireball result for tier 1. Making it a shatter or something instead.

[Dalebert]

Now, the chance of killing yourself to the point of needing a raise dead is considerably less. That means you need a failed save and to be level 2 or lower. It's probably reasonable to assume you'd use all 2 or 3 of your slots. But you're still only looking at (1-.985)*.5 = 5% of PCs perma-killing themselves.

Okay. I see you got my point. It's fairly unlikely that you actually die. It's certainly well within the realm of possibility that one or more party members drop to 0 from a tier 1 fireball, but then low level characters drop to 0 fairly regularly anyway just from enemies and such. It's why we prepare Healing Word, summon goodberries, buy healing potions and healer's kits, etc. It rarely means dead-dead.


Edit: Personally, I think it's worth a DM handwaving away the fireball result for tier 1. Making it a shatter or something instead.

I think I'd just say they drop to 0 but aren't dead because they're at the center of the explosion or whatever, if they're still tier 1 and the fireball would have done enough damage all at once to kill them. I'm an overly nice DM.

As a player, I fully accept the consequences of my actions. If I decide to blow through ToC and the subsequent surges, it's my responsibility to try to account for the bad things that could happen. I'm playing a yuan-ti so I have magic resistance. I buy healing potions and tell party members where to find them. I used DM Rewards to start at 3rd levels so I'm fairly unlikely to insta-die. When I know I'm likely to trigger a surge, I consider the worst possibilities and account--if I think the party could handle a fireball okay, maybe I stand near some allies AND some enemies, because sometimes good things happen to you and the people around you too. If my party's hurting, maybe I get away from them to be safer adn stand near enemies. Stuff like that. Also, in AL, you can get a free rez while you're tier 1 as long as the party can bring your body back. You just miss out on any xp or treasure from that session.

The fun is in the gambling, but not with real money. :D You take risks but you take calculated risks that pay off in the long run for a net gain.

[Kryx]

Personally, I think it's worth a DM handwaving away the fireball result for tier 1. Making it a shatter or something instead.
Stinking Cloud at all tiers will remove the massive stigma that rightfully belongs at the feet of the TPK Fireballing Wild Mage.

[Dalebert]

Stinking Cloud at all tiers will remove the massive stigma that rightfully belongs at the feet of the TPK Fireballing Wild Mage.

I implemented a house rule that the various effects scaled with level. That way it was less risky at lower levels but the risk scaled somewhat with level. I find myself wanting to mess with the RAW less and less over time because I don't want to reinvent the wheel and simpler is often better.

[Tanarii]

I implemented a house rule that the various effects scaled with level. That way it was less risky at lower levels but the risk scaled somewhat with level. I find myself wanting to mess with the RAW less and less over time because I don't want to reinvent the wheel and simpler is often better.
Yeah that's my attitude too. Or at least, house-rule on the fly and tell the player you'll come back and look at it later to see if it needs a long-term hours rule. (ie they get one freebie.)

But I doubt you'll convince Kryx of going down that route. :smallwink:

[Dalebert]

But I doubt you'll convince Kryx of going down that route. :smallwink:

I'll win the lottery first (and trigger a wild surge!) but that's fine. He and his players seem to be enjoying it.

BTW, Kryx, thanks for bringing Stinking Cloud back on my radar. That's a great spell for my yuan-ti wild mage!

[ruy343]

Imagine if I played a draconic fire-based sorcerer and you said you would only let me cast half my level worth of fire spells (rounded down) a day because you think the charisma bonus to damage is OP. Meanwhile, I built the character using up a lot of spells known on fire spells and I'm left with limited and sub-optimal spells to cast that have nothing to do with the flavor of the character I created.

"DOH!"

Allowing any creature advantage at will is a very different game than simply boosting damage, which has a far more limited scope of effect (though still important, of course).

However, I'm glad that my idea came close to something along the lines of what you wanted (a number of re-charges equal to your level). I'll playtest it and see if it works for us.

Also, for the record, one of the most dangerous wild surges that you could have (in my opinion) is to turn into a potted plant mid-combat, granting attackers advantage against you when you simply wanted to cast expeditious retreat and run away...

[Kryx]

But I doubt you'll convince Kryx of going down that route. :smallwink:
Some people can live with more imbalance than others. I'm not one of those. ;)

Though in this case the hosuerule of adjusting fireball's damage down in this one circumstance is more intrusive than my houserule of replacing it with a similar effect without the TPK.

[Dalebert]

Allowing any creature advantage at will is a very different game than simply boosting damage, which has a far more limited scope of effect (though still important, of course).

The analogy wasn't intended to say anything about the power level. The point was simply that wild surges are THE defining thing about wild mages and also their primary feature. They pay a huge opportunity cost for them if you compare all the features of the other sorcerer types that they're giving up. Draconic sorcerers have an array of reliable features--free always-on Mage Armor, extra hit points, access to resistance, extra damage on their favorite spells, eventually flight without concentration! All of that is essentially replaced with Tides of Chaos and wild surges that on balance are a little more favorable than unfavorable. So I'm just saying be very cautious about limiting the one worthwhile and defining thing.

I will admit that their 6th level ability is a little better than I originally thought it was so there's that. It's still pricey and highly circumstantial in it's usage thus has fairly limited usage. But their 14th level ability is just better wild surges so limiting wild surges carries over to severely gimping that ability as well.

[SharkForce]

and their level 18 ability is a giant stinking pile of turds that doesn't fit very well thematically and is also pretty crappy even if it was thematic.

[Dalebert]

I'm wondering if it's worth it to play this character in AL when my DM tends to change from game to game. I definitely feel like I will sporadically just choose not to play him depending on the DM's reaction when I ask him about Tides of Chaos, but should I just give up the fight and, once again, play another draconic sorcerer? They have very str8-fwd and reliable features, after all.

[Socratov]

I'm wondering if it's worth it to play this character in AL when my DM tends to change from game to game. I definitely feel like I will sporadically just choose not to play him depending on the DM's reaction when I ask him about Tides of Chaos, but should I just give up the fight and, once again, play another draconic sorcerer? They have very str8-fwd and reliable features, after all.

In a word, yes. WM sorcerers need a little DM cooperation, else the value of its classfeatures dwindles quickly.

[Dalebert]

Something just occurred to me about how I may have been over-exploiting Tides of Chaos. I was casting an attack spell and using Tides of Chaos to gain advantage with the attack which would then immediately trigger a surge and restore Tides of Chaos. The thing is, The attack action comes after the casting, right? So that spell shouldn't trigger a surge. It seems to me that if you use ToC on an attack spell, you can't renew it until your next spell after. If so, that's already a limiting factor, particularly considering you often will want to have ToC ready in case you need to make an important save but in this case, you're taking a risk using it for an attack and not having it available until you cast a spell again.

Thoughts?

[ad_hoc]

Something just occurred to me about how I may have been over-exploiting Tides of Chaos. I was casting an attack spell and using Tides of Chaos to gain advantage with the attack which would then immediately trigger a surge and restore Tides of Chaos. The thing is, The attack action comes after the casting, right? So that spell shouldn't trigger a surge. It seems to me that if you use ToC on an attack spell, you can't renew it until your next spell after. If so, that's already a limiting factor, particularly considering you often will want to have ToC ready in case you need to make an important save but in this case, you're taking a risk using it for an attack and not having it available until you cast a spell again.

Thoughts?

You resolve the spell first.

Gaining advantage on Witch Bolt is really not exploiting anything. You would be better off getting advantage on a cantrip and then casting a good spell to get Tides back.

Advantage on attack is the weakest part about Tides of Chaos anyway.

[Dalebert]

Gaining advantage on Witch Bolt is really not exploiting anything. You would be better off getting advantage on a cantrip and then casting a good spell to get Tides back.

Can we not obsess with Witch Bolt? It's beside the point. I got it. Everyone hates Witch Bolt. The point is since ToC is a limited resource, I'd be inclined to use it when I hate to waste a spell slot on a miss. I'd be more inclined to use it on a higher level slot, like maybe a boosted Chromatic Orb.


Advantage on attack is the weakest part about Tides of Chaos anyway.

It's attacks, ability checks, or saves, right? Also occasionally on ability checks where consequences of failure are potentially significant, like acrobatics to cross a rope over a deep gorge. Obviously saves are probably the best use of it but you may not get many chances to use it on those. Seems like the way it'll get used most is for attacks when you want help ensuring you'll hit.

[ad_hoc]

Can we not obsess with Witch Bolt? It's beside the point. I got it. Everyone hates Witch Bolt. The point is since ToC is a limited resource, I'd be inclined to use it when I hate to waste a spell slot on a miss. I'd be more inclined to use it on a higher level slot, like maybe a boosted Chromatic Orb.


A boosted Chromatic Orb is also a waste of a high level spell slot. It's better than Witch Bolt but still in the same territory.



It's attacks, ability checks, or saves, right? Also occasionally on ability checks where consequences of failure are potentially significant, like acrobatics to cross a rope over a deep gorge. Obviously saves are probably the best use of it but you may not get many chances to use it on those. Seems like the way it'll get used most is for attacks when you want help ensuring you'll hit.

You should only be making Ability Checks when the consequences for failure are significant.

Few Sorcerer spells are single attacks.

[ruy343]

Something just occurred to me about how I may have been over-exploiting Tides of Chaos. I was casting an attack spell and using Tides of Chaos to gain advantage with the attack which would then immediately trigger a surge and restore Tides of Chaos. The thing is, The attack action comes after the casting, right? So that spell shouldn't trigger a surge. It seems to me that if you use ToC on an attack spell, you can't renew it until your next spell after. If so, that's already a limiting factor, particularly considering you often will want to have ToC ready in case you need to make an important save but in this case, you're taking a risk using it for an attack and not having it available until you cast a spell again.

Thoughts?

That was the kind of thing that made me want to cap the number of recharges per day :) I interpreted it to mean that it would recharge after casting a first level spell, so yes, a chain is possible. Were this your table's ruling, you would likely be more inclined to choose attack roll spells instead of saving throw ones, which is actually a change for the norm (which is a good thing). Spells like Chromatic Orb or Guiding Bolt would be excellent in the hands of a character who could have perpetual advantage, and they aren't used that often because they're an all-or-nothing spell.

[Dalebert]

So my interpretation is Tides of Chaos is being used after the spell has been cast. That means the spell only has the normal chance of a surge, i.e. 5%. A surge shouldn't be triggered until the next spell you cast, right? This is probably more fair and less obnoxious than just surging every time and having ToC for every attack spell.

[ad_hoc]

That was the kind of thing that made me want to cap the number of recharges per day :) I interpreted it to mean that it would recharge after casting a first level spell, so yes, a chain is possible. Were this your table's ruling, you would likely be more inclined to choose attack roll spells instead of saving throw ones, which is actually a change for the norm (which is a good thing). Spells like Chromatic Orb or Guiding Bolt would be excellent in the hands of a character who could have perpetual advantage, and they aren't used that often because they're an all-or-nothing spell.

Chromatic Orb is good for the first few levels but is quickly outclassed. It's not worth it after level 5.

The apprentice levels go by very quickly. So for a small part of the game the Wild Sorcerer has the option to make lesser used spells good and you are worried about that?

[ad_hoc]

So my interpretation is Tides of Chaos is being used after the spell has been cast. That means the spell only has the normal chance of a surge, i.e. 5%. A surge shouldn't be triggered until the next spell you cast, right? This is probably more fair and less obnoxious than just surging every time and having ToC for every attack spell.

No, the surge comes immediately after the spell, not during.

Casting the spell involves resolving the effects. You don't stop in the middle of the spell to wild surge.

[Socratov]

Chromatic Orb is good for the first few levels but is quickly outclassed. It's not worth it after level 5.

The apprentice levels go by very quickly. So for a small part of the game the Wild Sorcerer has the option to make lesser used spells good and you are worried about that?

While not the best damage option, it's easy to hit with and it can deploy any energy type. this gets around those pesky resistances and immunities. Great back-up spell if you absolutely need that enemy down now and other spells aren't efficient.