Common good evil creatures?

[Hollysword]

I just can't stop thinking of good evil creatures. Good vampires, Good succubi, Good yuan-ti.

Ever since one of my early characters was a Chaotic Good Succubus Ranger (who hunts evil outsiders as her preferred enemy), I can't stop thinking of making a world where they're common (at least in one area).

What are your thoughts on this? How would you feel finding a large house next to a farm, and seeing around five succubi just farming away, cooking food and being helpful, making no attempts of seduction or evil? Or maybe even a whole town of them, where they all come together as a place where they can live and be accepted?

[John Longarrow]

I'd think you were in one of my friends game. In game we had faced a succubi. After loosing two party members to her, we (vindictive PCs) went out and got ourselves a helm of opposite alignment. A few spells later we dragged her back to the prime and made her put the helm on... repeatedly... Yep. she failed her will save eventually.

After that she became on of the party members. After playing with a deck of many things we wound up with 8 good aligned succubi. Things went from there.

Now there's an area where half succubi are common.

[Hollysword]

In one of my worlds, one that I made not because there's a group but just because I wanted a world with good succubi, I made a guild where good succubi are welcome and can be accepted. Got a succubus that loves the feel of fur and makes and wears fur clothes. A succubus who was formerly an executioner for an evil lord, and escaped because she didn't want to kill anymore. A succubus that was found by a nice noble and raised as a child, forced to escape when zealots wrecked the place because she's there, but made a promise to the noble that she'll remain good at all times.

And yes, Lassar herself (my succubus ranger) is one of the founders of the guild, together with her closest friend and companion: a half-elf cleric (myself in the world, heheh :smallwink:)

[Hogsy]

First of all, I love it! I even hate treating Orcs or Lizardfolk as evil cavesmen. In my campaign, the players were all grouped by the cosmos(an entity) with ome god each. One of them was a Cleric of Ilumater while another was a spawn of ashardalon( not the prc, he was a warlock). The warlock's Gos was a holy inquisitlr kind of deal had become more vindictive and cruel because he spent his days in the abyss slaying demons
His most trusted ally and second in command was a half-saccubi half-(white)dragon pyrokineticist. She was leader of a small order of followers called the Malog and cared deeply for sach and everyone of them. Eventually even the party's cleric truated her because she saved his life two or three times. In this sense, she was sort of the Avatar of a lawful good Deity.

[Red Fel]

Have we met?

Setting aside for the moment the absurd notion of an entire race being Evil, or a creature capable of free will and independent thought being bound to a single alignment, certain concepts echo across the lines of species. Love, friendship, satisfaction, confidence. True, those that are intrinsically Evil will view certain ideas in their own particular idiom. But I've never seen a problem with, say, an Evil Outsider falling in love, settling down, starting a family, and building a home, without having as his ultimate aim global domination. In fact, I find that it gives depth and profundity to the Evil alignment, and those creatures with the (Evil) subtype, to show how they approach these otherwise mundane but fulfilling aspirations.

I've commented on this in my handbook, but it bears repeating: Evil people are still people. Sure, the unapologetically Evil incarnations of cosmic Evil writ large are horrifying creatures, and that's great, but those who seek something more can give complexity to their entire race, in being the exception that tests the rule.

Frankly, I could see a group of Evil Outsiders in a village, living alongside generations of townsfolk. A Marilith could be an exceptional nurse and manage children well; having many arms is a great way to keep on top of rambunctious youths. A Bebelith would make an extremely capable beast of burden, its vicious claws surprisingly effective at plowing fields. Mighty Balors and Pit Fiends would be exceptional at manual labor, as lumberjacks and smiths and the like. A Kyton's chains would make it naturally gifted at animal husbandry, capable of keeping multiple beasts on a lead. The townsfolk would welcome the strong, independent-minded skilled laborers and carers and protectors, and the Outsiders would enjoy the freedom from the constant struggles of the Planes.

I dig it.

[LordOfCain]

Wow... this thread just got the Red Fel Seal of ApprovalTM....

[Andezzar]

Frankly, I could see a group of Evil Outsiders in a village, living alongside generations of townsfolk. A Marilith could be an exceptional nurse and manage children well; having many arms is a great way to keep on top of rambunctious youths. A Bebelith would make an extremely capable beast of burden, its vicious claws surprisingly effective at plowing fields. Mighty Balors and Pit Fiends would be exceptional at manual labor, as lumberjacks and smiths and the like. A Kyton's chains would make it naturally gifted at animal husbandry, capable of keeping multiple beasts on a lead. The townsfolk would welcome the strong, independent-minded skilled laborers and carers and protectors, and the Outsiders would enjoy the freedom from the constant struggles of the Planes.An interesting idea, but i doubt the higher ups would tolerate such behavior long.

Of course evil creatures can have friends fall in love and settle down, without ceasing to be evil, but IMHO demons and especially devils are way to organized to pull something like that off. Someone would take offense and do something about it. I see no problem with chromatic dragons or drow doing this however.

[Fri]

Well, there you got your plot! Balor fell in love with human and start to live peacefully in a village, doing manual labor and being loved by everyone, but of course the higher ups can't have none of those! He need to be put into his position and punished! So they rain down to the peaceful village and kill everyone, but the balor escaped barely, and so on and so on!

[John Longarrow]

Hobgoblins are, by description, very inclined to change for LE to LN if presented with options where being evil is not as useful to them.

Say Hobgoblins are brought in to be the troops guarding a city. They are given strict protocols for dealing with locals. Initially they still like their brutal ways and brutal games, but given interaction with locals where they need to behave differently, they may grow to like not killing others for sport.

[Nettlekid]

How would you feel finding a large house next to a farm, and seeing around five succubi just farming away, cooking food and being helpful, making no attempts of seduction or evil? Or maybe even a whole town of them, where they all come together as a place where they can live and be accepted?

Personally, and I expect to be in the minority on this, this kind of scenario really annoys me for a few reasons. Mostly it's that it forces a mortal mindset onto creatures that by all rights should have completely alien, inscrutable mentalities. I feel like Succubi are frequently used as an example for this, and people describe a cutesy realm where some less lustful Succubi just chill and don't try to seduce mortals to ruin, but that's because the people describing those Succubi are looking at those actions from a human point of view, where lust is a temptation that can lead to ruin. But if a Succubus is an entity fueled and sustained by mortal lust, then there's nothing more pure or reasonable about a Succubus choosing to be celibate than a Human choosing not to breathe. Or perhaps eating would be a more apt metaphor, a Succubus that doesn't seduce mortals would be like a Human who chooses not to eat even plants for the harm it does to a living organism. It's charming in notion but the Human will die, because their biology requires consumption of some kind of living organism. So too would a Succubus be damaged by the lack of sustenance. The means by which they, shall we say, "acquire" their nourishment aligns with Human ideals that are enjoyable bordering on hedonistic but not biologically necessary, which is why Humans would say "oh you can live life without it," but I don't think I'd say the same about a Succubus.

From a more D&D-focused point of view, since the above is more pertinent to just the notion of Succubi in general, there's also the issue of what it means to be an Outsider with an Alignment Subtype. In my mind, that's where the biggest divide is. I'm absolutely in agreement with previous posters about sapient mortal creatures being able to decide their own destinies despite what the Monster Manual says their alignment should be. Even creatures with biological needs that suggest evil means to an end (like Vampires) could manage to coexist with people and do good in their own way. But that's because good and evil are mindsets to those mortal creatures, just a way of being. Outsiders with Alignment Subtypes have a fused body and soul that is created in one carved piece from the fabric of their native plane, and that plane's matter is a coalesced physical construction of a particular ethical or moral stance. A Demon is evil with a lowercase e because it is made out of Evil with a capital E. Its physical body is made out of Evil, and when you're made of Evil you really can't be good.

Here's how I like to imagine it. Instead of vague notions like good/Good and evil/Evil, imagine it with Fire and Water instead. In the same way that a good-aligned Wizard can technically cast an Evil spell even though they should feel bad about it while a Cleric of a good god cannot cast an Evil spell, a Wizard devoted to the powers and principles of water could still cast Fireball if they really needed to, while a Cleric who worshipped a primal entity of Water would likely not be granted in their daily prayers the use of Flame Strike or Lava Missile by its disapproving deity who wants at all times to further the cause of Water.

So in this extended analogy, a Demon living in a happy, caring, generous, supportive good-aligned community would be akin to a Fire Elemental living underwater, in an Atlantean society surrounded by Merfolk. It's as reasonable to say that a Balor would sit idly by, lending its strength to build houses for the needy and chase away invaders, as it is to say that a Fire Elemental would one day wade into the ocean and volunteer its burning body to boil aquatic soups for the Merfolk. The goodness in the atmosphere of the town would be dizzying and maddening to the Balor, just like the water in the atmosphere of Atlantis would be harmful to the Fire Elemental. To exist in that state is not just not in its nature, it's outright biologically impossible for it to do so.

Again, that's very much an outside case (hah) due to the described creation and biology of Outsiders as being extensions of their very plane. There seems to be a hierarchy of forced evil alignments, from "no real reason but it's just a racial outlook" like Goblins and Kobolds, to "they were kind of created to have this alignment by external powers" like Drow or Yuan-Ti, to "they are incapable of feeling any kind of happiness or positive emotions so they're evil" like Illithids and Beholders, to "they are fueled by Evil powers" like Undead, to "they are literally made out of Evil" like Outsiders with the Evil subtype. All but the last of those I would say can fit into Red Fel's described situation by which the complexity of what describes "evil" is tested by members who stray from the norm. Undead are a weird gray area because Negative Energy keeps being linked to capital-E-Evil much like the Lower Planes, but while it animates them it doesn't shape their very entity, and after all a Human powered by Positive Energy can certain by evil so an Undead powered by Negative Energy could very possibly be good. But those Evil Outsiders like Succubi and Balors, they really can't choose a life of simple good any more than the Fire Elemental can choose to swim.

[Hollysword]

I was expecting a post like yours, with the whole 'Evil outsiders are made of pure evil' argument. But that makes no sense. Even if they are made of evil, they still have minds of their own, with high intelligence and wisdom scores. Despite being 'made of evil', they can still think and pick their own alignment. Sure what they're made of makes them naturally pulled to one alignment, but unless they're mindless, they can still decide.

As for how the succubi feeds... I can always picture some normal races who are willing to let the succubi feed on them time to time. It's similar to how those with vampire friends allow the vampires to feed off them.

It's like one of my parties. My succubus travels with my cleric, and likely feeds off him when she needs to, and the cleric can restore himself afterwards. She doesn't have to feed on random innocents, and really, she wouldn't want to. The party also had an elf and a pixie (my friend is a Legend of Zelda fan), who are also willing to let the succubus feed on them if the cleric isn't ready.

In short: The way I see it, any creature with intelligence and wisdom can choose their alignment. While what they are might influence it, it's still ultimately their own choice. And if they're known to be good, there are bound to be people who would be willing to serve as sustenance for the creatures.

[Ruethgar]

As a side note, just know that outsiders often have alignment subtypes that are not removed by most alignment changing things. The example of succubi with a helm of opposite alignment, they are still Chaotic Evil for everything that looks for it. They would also be Lawful and Good. Mmmm Shape Soulmeld Incarnate Avatar. I can't imagine being physically made of the essence opposite of your outlook, I would think it would be excruciating.

[Nettlekid]

I was expecting a post like yours, with the whole 'Evil outsiders are made of pure evil' argument. But that makes no sense. Even if they are made of evil, they still have minds of their own, with high intelligence and wisdom scores. Despite being 'made of evil', they can still think and pick their own alignment. Sure what they're made of makes them naturally pulled to one alignment, but unless they're mindless, they can still decide.

As for how the succubi feeds... I can always picture some normal races who are willing to let the succubi feed on them time to time. It's similar to how those with vampire friends allow the vampires to feed off them.

It's like one of my parties. My succubus travels with my cleric, and likely feeds off him when she needs to, and the cleric can restore himself afterwards. She doesn't have to feed on random innocents, and really, she wouldn't want to. The party also had an elf and a pixie (my friend is a Legend of Zelda fan), who are also willing to let the succubus feed on them if the cleric isn't ready.

In short: The way I see it, any creature with intelligence and wisdom can choose their alignment. While what they are might influence it, it's still ultimately their own choice. And if they're known to be good, there are bound to be people who would be willing to serve as sustenance for the creatures.

Well you did ask for other peoples' thoughts on the matter. So that's why I shared mine. Not sure what you wanted out of a thread if you just planned to shoot down the other thoughts.

I still stand by my Fire Elemental argument though. A Fire Elemental is intelligent, but it can't decide to go swimming. A Succubus is intelligent, but it can't decide to donate to charity. You said that it doesn't "make sense" that a Succubus can't choose to be good-aligned, but does it make sense that a Fire Elemental can't go swimming? It's literally the same thing, that an entity supernaturally created from a particular cosmic force cannot engage in behavior that runs counter to that cosmic force. In D&D, good and evil aren't just mindsets and moralities and a basis on which to make decisions. They are to mortals, but not to higher powers. Magic of Incarnum more than anything proves that Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are material, tangible, quantifiable elements. Because they are tangible, they can be used to construct the building blocks of matter and life. Chaos and Evil are to a Succubus as Carbon and Hydrogen are to Humans. From a Human perspective it wouldn't be easy to understand them in that way, which is why I go back to Fire and Water instead of Evil and Good.

Your example of a party that volunteers to sustain a converted ally's biology works very well for something like a Vampire, which I would agree has freedom of choice. Numerous factors of both nature and nurture push a Vampire toward an evil mindset, probably stemming from certain kinds of corruption of the mind due to its Negative Energy animating spirit, the rush of power it feels from its transition to Undeath and the comparison of strength against living members of its former species that would make them feel insignificant in comparison, probably a level of madness borne from the supernatural hungers and aches that Undeath brings, and apathy and indifference to fleeting life that older Undead might experience. All of those things could easily point someone toward being cold, withdrawn, selfish, and spiteful, which lend themselves well to an evil alignment. But it's not absolute, an Undead creature with unusual life-or-afterlife experiences could have a revelation and choose a path of good. In this I agree with you, that any sapient creature of a distinct body and soul can make that decision.

But that's because it's all lowercase. An Undead creature might be predisposed to lowercase-e-evil and drawn against the odds to lowercase-g-good. A Succubus is formed from capital-E-Evil. In order for a Succubus to be lowercase-g-good, it needs to somehow not be made of capital-E-Evil. An inverse example is the Erinyes - these are explicitly Devils created from fallen Angels, but despite being Angels they have the Evil subtype and not the Good subtype. Something in their biology shifted such that they could harbor evil in their spirit, presumably during their fall from grace. They couldn't serve the legions of Baator if they still had the Good subtype.

For further evidence, look at the Sanctify The Wicked spell, otherwise known as the Good-aligned Mindrape. That's a spell designed for less creative minds to force an evil monster to be a good guy. That hierarchy I mentioned in my last post, from Goblins to Drow to Illithids to Vampires? Sanctify The Wicked works on them all, stealing their soul and mashing it beyond recognition, and at the end of a year and at the cost of one character level on the part of the caster you can have turned a barbaric, zealous, brain eating, bloodthirsty abomination into a Lawful Good champion of justice and happiness. But the Sanctified Creature template cannot be applied to an Outsider with the Evil subtype. Says so right in the template text. An Outsider with the Evil subtype is beyond the hope of this spell that does exactly what you're talking about. Good Mindrape can't change the alignment of a Succubus because the alignment isn't just part of the mind or the soul, it's fixed into the core of the body as well. For a capital-E-Evil creature, alignment isn't a choice. It's part of who they are. The Fire Elemental cannot swim.

[Hollysword]

I feel like accepting that challenge of a fire elemental in a merfolk town. A fire elemental wizard that can create a bubble to live underwater.

Besides, didn't Wizards make an actual iconic hero succubus? Eludecia, I think she's called, Lawful Good Succubus Paladin, after she falls in love with an angel.

As for my succubus, backstory is she was accidentally summoned rather suddenly, and lost her memory of being a demon. Although she quickly understands that she is a demon, she doesn't feel the pull of evil anymore because her companions.

[Nettlekid]

I feel like accepting that challenge of a fire elemental in a merfolk town. A fire elemental wizard that can create a bubble to live underwater.

Besides, didn't Wizards make an actual iconic hero succubus? Eludecia, I think she's called, Lawful Good Succubus Paladin, after she falls in love with an angel.

As for my succubus, backstory is she was accidentally summoned rather suddenly, and lost her memory of being a demon. Although she quickly understands that she is a demon, she doesn't feel the pull of evil anymore because her companions.

WotC constantly breaks its own rules and goes against its own lore. One example from a web supplement doesn't really break down a whole argument set by several books of precedent, including both Fiendish Codices and the Book of Exalted Deeds. That iconic hero doesn't even describe what happened to change the nature of the entity, it outright says "something happened, she fell in love or whatever, who knows what, and boom now you have a quirky NPC." Since that same supplement contains statblocks for the Succubus as a Blackguard, you could just as easily point to it as an example of how a Demon can't ever permanently break the shackles of their evil fate.

I'm glad you brought up the bubble concept for the Fire Elemental, because apply that logic to the Succubus. For the Fire Elemental, maybe for whatever reason it wants to live in the water. I would still argue that it would desire no such thing, but let's start by assuming that it does. But it still cannot survive in the water, water would destroy it. So it creates some kind of shield to keep the water out. Creating a bubble means that while it might be existing in the realm of Water, it still cannot come in contact with it even slightly. Maybe a shield of Fire, so hot that it evaporates Water before the Water can come in contact with the Elemental. Or maybe one of Air or Earth, that forms a layer that prevents the water from touching it anyway.

What, in this extended analogy, does that mean for the Succubus? The Fire shield equates to a shield of intense Evil so dark that it eliminates all Good before that Good threatens to come in contact with the Succubus. Truthfully I'm not even sure what that means. Intensely torturing the recipients of any charity, maybe? If the Fire is so hot as to evaporate Water instantly, this Evil has to be so dark as to eliminate all shreds of Good. That's not really going to do the job of integrating her into a good-aligned society. So what then about the moderation, of Air or Earth? Well obviously that means that the Succubus is shielding herself from Good through means of Law or Chaos. Using Law, all charity is thoroughly bureaucratically arranged, no one receives any benefit of goodwill without proper procedures being in place. On the other hand, a shield of Chaos would be to do good thoroughly arbitrarily, unpredictably, leaving some people without help who need it and spending too much time aiding those who don't need it as much. In order for it to adequately protect her, it has to be so cold and robotic or frustratingly erratic that the people she helps don't actually wish her any goodwill for having been helped by her, for to receive that goodwill would be to come in contact with anathemic Goodness. That is what it means for a Fire Elemental to be living in a bubble underwater, and that is what it would mean for a Succubus to be living in a good-aligned community. At the very best, the Succubus would be contributing as much frustration and strife as good to the people of the community, so that if they didn't actively resent her then they still wouldn't be fond of her. Otherwise it would be too Good, and she couldn't stomach that.

[Hollysword]

The fire elemental might fall in love with a merfolk, and want to join her in the underwater city.

It's not like a succubus just fizzles into nothingness in the midst of good like a fire would in water though. If that's the case, how do demons even enter the material plane without anyone noticing, if they need those dark shields?

[Nettlekid]

The fire elemental might fall in love with a merfolk, and want to join her in the underwater city.

It's not like a succubus just fizzles into nothingness in the midst of good like a fire would in water though. If that's the case, how do demons even enter the material plane without anyone noticing, if they need those dark shields?

I feel like you're not actively addressing the questions I'm putting to you or engaging in productive discourse, so I'm going to cut my losses here.

[Hollysword]

I still believe that anything that can think can choose their alignment. It is true nature may pull a given creature to a given alignment, but each one is still able to choose their own future. So many instances of a good succubus are found in many games.

This doesn't just have to be succubi though. A good vrock would make a great mountain climbing guide.

[John Longarrow]

I still believe that anything that can think can choose their alignment. It is true nature may pull a given creature to a given alignment, but each one is still able to choose their own future. So many instances of a good succubus are found in many games.

This doesn't just have to be succubi though. A good vrock would make a great mountain climbing guide.

Two very important distinctions that need to be included. Evil creatures may decide not to act on their evil desires and may even act good, but this would not change their base nature. Comparison would be someone who really loves the taste of chocolate and hated vanilla, but eats vanilla and never touches chocolate because of their choice. It doesn't mean they like vanilla, but they can choose to eat it.

Same should apply to an outsider until something happens to change it. They can't control what they like but they can choose to act or not act upon it.

Course most outsiders would never become involved in mundane activities that have no counterpart in their experience. A farm with succubi doesn't make much sense since they don't need to eat. Brothel? OK, I'll buy that.

[Hollysword]

How about just a building where they can get together and socialize? Not a brothel, more like a guildhouse, where they can come in and be accepted.

[John Longarrow]

How about just a building where they can get together and socialize? Not a brothel, more like a guildhouse, where they can come in and be accepted.

Ah, a swing club! Perfect! :smallbiggrin:

[GilesTheCleric]

I think your premise is fine, but stock D&D isn't receptive to it, unfortunately. Evil, Good, Chaos, and Law (and neutrality) are actual elements in D&D, the same way that the classical elements of fire, earth, air, and water were thought to be. They're physical things that exist. Creatures can be sculpted from them, or draw their power from them. Undead exist on negative energy the same way a devil exists on lawful and evil energy, and a fire elemental (as Nettlekid explained) exists on fire energy. It's not fluff that's mutable. It's physics in D&Dland.

Now, you could totally bump G/E and L/C off their high pedestal by houseruling (as I do) that they're not elements any more. Or use a cosmology that's not Planescape (which is the default for 3.5) and go with something else, like Dark Sun or Spelljammer cosmology. The alignment system has a lot of roleplaying opportunities to offer, but in a lot of ways it's held back by its rigidity.

[John Longarrow]

Now, you could totally bump G/E and L/C off their high pedestal by houseruling (as I do) that they're not elements any more. Or use a cosmology that's not Planescape (which is the default for 3.5) and go with something else, like Dark Sun or Spelljammer cosmology. The alignment system has a lot of roleplaying opportunities to offer, but in a lot of ways it's held back by its rigidity.

Very true. The only way I could work out to keep the existing alignment system working at my table was to have a 'connection' between individuals and the planes that held claim to their souls. This means you can be Lawful Evil because your souls is bound to a devil even if your RPing doesn't exactly correspond to the alignment.

I'd love to just ditch alignments but there's too much in game mechanics built around it.

[thoroughlyS]

Gotta say, I'm with Nettlekid here 100%, including the 'hierarchy' that he proposes.


It's not like a succubus just fizzles into nothingness in the midst of good like a fire would in water though. If that's the case, how do demons even enter the material plane without anyone noticing, if they need those dark shields?

The first thing to note is that the Prime Material is "Mildly Neutral Aligned"(MotP p.41). In the fire elemental analogy, it's like a beach between the forest and the sea. The elemental can be plonked down right on this beach, and be fine. The succubus is similarly safe.

Secondly, the ocean and forest in this analogy are not actual locations, but two set of actions. If a succubus starts taking good actions, she'll get a warm fuzzy feeling inside, which to her would feel like heartburn. The normal thing a demon does once it gets to the Prime is to start wrecking someone's day. A hezrou will start eating people, and a succubus will start feeding. The fire elemental will normally walk into the forest, and start blazin' it up. Tempting and draining mortals is her "dark shield", because from the moment she enters the Prime, she walks right into the forest.

And lastly, people usually notice when a demon enters the Prime, because that's when they call for the heroes. If a succubus starts draining people, bodies start turning up or people start going missing, and the people of that town notice. The succubus evades notice by pointing people in the wrong direction, or staying hidden when people look for what's causing the trouble.

I also feel that it bears repeating that this is only a problem with beings made of Evil, to me at least. I love playing good goblins, and my friends are about to start a wererat and vampire that shift from CE to CG and CN respectively.

[GilesTheCleric]

Very true. The only way I could work out to keep the existing alignment system working at my table was to have a 'connection' between individuals and the planes that held claim to their souls. This means you can be Lawful Evil because your souls is bound to a devil even if your RPing doesn't exactly correspond to the alignment.

I'd love to just ditch alignments but there's too much in game mechanics built around it.

Hmn, that's an interesting approach that allows for a lot more variation. To make sure I have it right, in your system you could have an effectively LG person actually be LE, because that's the domain that owns their soul? Could you tell me a little more about it, like whether things are pre-determined, or whether things like Hellbreds can happen frequently if a person's actions while alive really oppose the alignment of their soul?

For my table, I basically handwave alignments for the players entirely, so eg. almost no alignment requirements on classes, and alignment-based spells treat them as neutral (I also avoid using those spells). I keep them for appropriate NPCs/ creatures (ie things with an alignment descriptor). It's asymmetric, which is opposed to 3.5's design philosophy, but makes more sense to me than the other approach of also giving players an alignment on the fire/water, earth/air, positive/negative, and other descriptors (cold/acid?) axes. That's just too complicated, and I don't think it would add anything for most players.

[John Longarrow]

In truth most of the minutia gets swallowed up by "Player puts alignment on character sheet". For in game what should be happening though, character worships WeeJas. Character is going to be Lawful something, depending on which aspect of the religion they are raised in. Lets say they worship the magic and "Helping the departed peacefully arrive where they need to be" portions, character is probably Lawful Good. When the character dies that's where they go and that is what most spells can detect.

Character does something evil, something chaotic, or just isn't all that good. Doesn't immediately change where they go when they die. More of a "Beginning to get points towards" thing that gets subsumed in most RPing.

Character goes on a random killing spree. Character is no longer judged as either lawful or good if this killing spree doesn't match their ethos. Character slides through N to CE, but not immediately.

After it happens you get the whole "Detects as" and "Affected by". This reflects more where the character's soul is bound for though.

I've never had the issue of hellbred pop up in game so its never been an issue.

I HAVE had outsiders influenced to fall or rise though. Both are long and drawn out processes that require the outsider to first be confronted with a reality that doesn't match their world view. Then they have to have plenty of time to experience an existence different from what were created for. Normally it takes years and is not an assured result by any means. It only affects exceptional outsiders that are already outside the norms for their kind though.

It has happened with an Erinyes devil that spent far to long in the middle of high level politics and a Protector that was subjected to the death of children due to its presence (forced upon it, but it accepted blame after a while). The Devil went Neutral after accepting multiple worldviews for decades while the protector went evil and became very nasty.

[Andezzar]

WotC constantly breaks its own rules and goes against its own lore. One example from a web supplement doesn't really break down a whole argument set by several books of precedent, including both Fiendish Codices and the Book of Exalted Deeds. That iconic hero doesn't even describe what happened to change the nature of the entity, it outright says "something happened, she fell in love or whatever, who knows what, and boom now you have a quirky NPC." Since that same supplement contains statblocks for the Succubus as a Blackguard, you could just as easily point to it as an example of how a Demon can't ever permanently break the shackles of their evil fate.It's not just one web supplement. The MM explicitly allows this:
Alignment: This line in a monster entry gives the alignment
that the creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to all monsters of that kind.
Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.


I'm glad you brought up the bubble concept for the Fire Elemental, because apply that logic to the Succubus. For the Fire Elemental, maybe for whatever reason it wants to live in the water. I would still argue that it would desire no such thing, but let's start by assuming that it does. But it still cannot survive in the water, water would destroy it. So it creates some kind of shield to keep the water out. Creating a bubble means that while it might be existing in the realm of Water, it still cannot come in contact with it even slightly. Maybe a shield of Fire, so hot that it evaporates Water before the Water can come in contact with the Elemental. Or maybe one of Air or Earth, that forms a layer that prevents the water from touching it anyway.

What, in this extended analogy, does that mean for the Succubus? The Fire shield equates to a shield of intense Evil so dark that it eliminates all Good before that Good threatens to come in contact with the Succubus. Truthfully I'm not even sure what that means. Intensely torturing the recipients of any charity, maybe? If the Fire is so hot as to evaporate Water instantly, this Evil has to be so dark as to eliminate all shreds of Good. That's not really going to do the job of integrating her into a good-aligned society. So what then about the moderation, of Air or Earth? Well obviously that means that the Succubus is shielding herself from Good through means of Law or Chaos. Using Law, all charity is thoroughly bureaucratically arranged, no one receives any benefit of goodwill without proper procedures being in place. On the other hand, a shield of Chaos would be to do good thoroughly arbitrarily, unpredictably, leaving some people without help who need it and spending too much time aiding those who don't need it as much. In order for it to adequately protect her, it has to be so cold and robotic or frustratingly erratic that the people she helps don't actually wish her any goodwill for having been helped by her, for to receive that goodwill would be to come in contact with anathemic Goodness. That is what it means for a Fire Elemental to be living in a bubble underwater, and that is what it would mean for a Succubus to be living in a good-aligned community. At the very best, the Succubus would be contributing as much frustration and strife as good to the people of the community, so that if they didn't actively resent her then they still wouldn't be fond of her. Otherwise it would be too Good, and she couldn't stomach that.The issue with good, evil, law and chaos is that they are fundamental forces in the D&D world, just like gravity and electromagnetism in the real world, but that their names are associated with moral and ethical principles. As such we expect creatures with such subtypes to behave accordingly and our expectations are largely met. However there isn't a direct cause and effect relation between the two. Just as we shouldn't attribute certain moral value to certain EM emissions of creatures we shouldn't assume that creatures with a certain subtype must always behave in a certain way or that their subtype sets their alignment. Even creatures with alignment subtypes still have free will, unless the rules tell us otherwise. If they were lacking free will, attributing the corresponding alignment to a subtype would make even less sense because the creature couldn't make a moral decision.

[Crake]

I personally would concede the notion that just like an angel can fall, a demon could "ascend", but I'd say it's much harder. I would also say that in the majority of worlds, the demons would need some means of hiding themselves, because lets face it, mortals don't take kindly to demonic creatures, just by means of looks alone. When people in the real world are only just now managing to overcome the notions of race, how do you think they would react to literal demons.

Assuming that the demons would be helping out and walking around in their natural form to me just sounds like an airy fairy, faffywaffy, happy-fun-time land that would completely break immersion for me as a player.

For the most part I agree with nettlekid, but as I said, implying that a demon cannot become good because of it's subtype would also mean no angel could ever fall for the same reason. I maintain that it can happen, but nowhere near often enough, and the few that it does happen to would be hunted down for all eternity by their own kind, being seen as weak, and traitors to their own kind. They would bring ruin to any town they lived in for too long, and honestly, would likely fall back into evil habits sooner or later.

Regarding nettlekid's statement about demons being alien in thought patterns, I agree, though funnily enough, with the exception of succubi. Succubi are the most human-like out of all the tanar'ri, and are the most capable of falling into many of the pitfalls of human emotions (according to one of the demonomicon entires anyway), including falling in love. A balor on the other hand, is so far removed from humanity and the emotions we would associate that one has to actually question if it is even capable of falling in love. I do have to agree with nettlekid for the majority of his points though, including that too often people project human emotions and attitudes onto beings that are so vastly, horrifically different from us that to do so would just be a fallacy. Do it too often and you risk turning your game into monster girl quest.

[Mordaedil]

PlaneScape was such a good game setting.

[zergling.exe]

This is what Savage Species ritual of alignment is for. 56,000 gp and 1,440 xp and your evil outsider is no longer cosmically (or regularly) evil, and is now a neutral and free creature.

A cosmically evil creature would likely wrap any thought that they have towards evil ends in the long run (so genuinely good thoughts would have to be acted on quickly). Aiding that village? While after they trust me it will be easier to get them to perform a genocide of those 'evil' orcs that occasionally have them pay tribute. Love someone? Turn them to evil for a soul to gain more power. Build that irrigation channel? It's actually part of a giant transmutation circle designed to kill everyone within it.

[Jowgen]

I think that this is possible as Red Fel described, but it's existence/success would depend on some stringent conditions. Lets say that these different creatures from all over decide they don't want to be part of their respective great conflict anymore. Going from that to living peacefully in a small community somewhere is not easy.

For one, these Evil creatures would need a safe space to settle. Unless they're in a location beyond the reach of the (interplanar) conflicts that they were a part of, those conflicts are gonna come after and try to pull them back in. An uninhabited prime material world located in an atheistic Crystal Sphere might be a good start.

Even before that, they need a way to get there. The simplest thing I think is if this community had recruiters, or at least left behind means for likeminded folks to contact them. Lastly, a melting pot like this community comes with its own challanges. There would need to be unquestionalbe authoroty and skilled mediators, so that the Balor and Pit Fiend don't ruin the whole thing by starting a massive fight as soon as they arrive because the one refused to get out the other's seat.

Interestingly, this entire thing is pretty similar to the Lore of the Diablo game world. In that, one of the high angels and a most powerful demon lady got sick of the endless fighting; so the Angel stole the "world stone" and they created a new world for them and their followers/children to live together in peace, undetectable by either heaven or hell. They called this world Sanctuary, and it all went down the drain when the demon noticed that the inter-bred children (human ancestor species) had the power to sway the eternal conflict.

[Red Fel]

For one, these Evil creatures would need a safe space to settle. Unless they're in a location beyond the reach of the (interplanar) conflicts that they were a part of, those conflicts are gonna come after and try to pull them back in. An uninhabited prime material world located in an atheistic Crystal Sphere might be a good start.

Or, you know, Sigil. Because... Sigil.

[John Longarrow]

Something fairly important to remember, from both a gaming and story telling stance, is that if "Evil" creatures turn out to be good far to often then the whole concept of "Demons are EVIL" becomes problematic.

If the players (or readers in a story) continually see multiple "Good" bad guys they start assuming they are all really not that bad. This tends to slowly erode the expectation that Evil = EVIL and not just "Misunderstood". It can cause a lot of problems when players assume the bad guys are not really bad and stop acting towards them as though they are unrepentant killers. If the party begins assuming all Succubi are really good but misunderstood then you start having TPKs when these really bad individuals manipulate the party.

[Mordaedil]

It's not that bad as long as they get killed while on the material plane as they get sent back when they die.

Unless it is a calling spell I think.

[Zanos]

I generally agree with what Nettlekid has been saying, but I'm also going to throw out that being contrary isn't enough for something to be good, or even interesting. "Village of chill succubi" screams like it was written to be quirky and weird just for the sake of being quirky and weird at best, and fanwank at worst.

[Mordaedil]

I don't think fanwank means what you think it means, but I get your idea.

[Crake]

I generally agree with what Nettlekid has been saying, but I'm also going to throw out that being contrary isn't enough for something to be good, or even interesting. "Village of chill succubi" screams like it was written to be quirky and weird just for the sake of being quirky and weird at best, and fanwank at worst.

It kinda reminds me of the succubus village in monster girl quest actually. They were kidnapping men to feed off of, but by the end, it turned out the men were actually lining up to be fed on and become their cattle, because it promised a lifetime of pleasure and not having to worry about taking care of themselves, because they were being cared for like pets :smalltongue: Far from being good though, and yeah, a little gimmicky (in 3.5 'recovering' from energy drain is pretty hard without spells, eventually a slave is just going to be drained down to level 1 and no longer useful beyond manual labour, because any more negative levels will kill them and spawn a wight).

I could see some humans evolving co-habitation with succubi with the enduring life and lasting life feats, letting them spend a few moments to recover from negative levels and carry on, but lets face it, the succubi would still be the masters and the humans the pets.

[Mordaedil]

It kinda reminds me of the succubus village in monster girl quest actually. They were kidnapping men to feed off of, but by the end, it turned out the men were actually lining up to be fed on and become their cattle, because it promised a lifetime of pleasure and not having to worry about taking care of themselves, because they were being cared for like pets :smalltongue: Far from being good though, and yeah, a little gimmicky (in 3.5 'recovering' from energy drain is pretty hard without spells, eventually a slave is just going to be drained down to level 1 and no longer useful beyond manual labour, because any more negative levels will kill them and spawn a wight).

I could see some humans evolving co-habitation with succubi with the enduring life and lasting life feats, letting them spend a few moments to recover from negative levels and carry on, but lets face it, the succubi would still be the masters and the humans the pets.

Well, the ability is kinda vague... It says spawn as a monster of their kind, "if not, as a wight" without stating what the condition is.

[Crake]

Well, the ability is kinda vague... It says spawn as a monster of their kind, "if not, as a wight" without stating what the condition is.

It says depending on the creature, so if the monster entry specifies that they spawn as a specific kind of monster, they do, otherwise it's just a wight. I usually have the succubi deal with that by just eating the body.

[Hollysword]

I feel like making it a thing now, some kind of signature on every world I make. Every human town will have at least one succubus inside, of any alignment. Might be good, might be evil. If they are evil, it might not always be 'seduce people and take their souls' evil, but might be normal 'evil' things like hating her job and her employer.

[Mordaedil]

That's evil? The standards here are very weird.

[Hollysword]

Picture someone working in the town stables, but doesn't care about the horses, hates the customers, doesn't care about working times, pretty much hate her job. Evil doesn't have to be dominating or complete destruction types.

You know, if I plan to add succubus as a race in town, what % of the town would be succubi? Would 1% be suitable?

[Jowgen]

Picture someone working in the town stables, but doesn't care about the horses, hates the customers, doesn't care about working times, pretty much hate her job. Evil doesn't have to be dominating or complete destruction types.

You know, if I plan to add succubus as a race in town, what % of the town would be succubi? Would 1% be suitable?

If you just want random fiends et al. kicking about otherwise normal communities, as opposed to a distant hidden world or Sigil, or similar; then you'll need some kind of in-world explenation as to why they're being allowed to live like that without interference.

Something like a authorative force that is "backing" their desire to live in such a removed fashion. Some kind of deity of second chances, or piece of cosmic law similar to the pact primeval. Something that says, "Evil things that want to live in peace can do so without interference from their former allies or enemeis". If you got something like that, then sure, a town Succubus would work.

I'd suggest one succubus per 20 males of virile age.

[thoroughlyS]

Picture someone working in the town stables, but doesn't care about the horses, hates the customers, doesn't care about working times, pretty much hate her job. Evil doesn't have to be dominating or complete destruction types.

Hating your job is not evil. If the succubus was, for example, head of a merchant guild and using her powers to manipulate the guild members into price gouging, while at the same time ensuring that every artisan in town joins, that would be evil. Or a succubus that works as part of the town guard, but screws up any investigations on purpose (using her powers to stay on), so that criminals can roam freely, that's evil. Just sucking at your job or hating customers? Not evil.

[John Longarrow]

I feel like making it a thing now, some kind of signature on every world I make. Every human town will have at least one succubus inside, of any alignment. Might be good, might be evil. If they are evil, it might not always be 'seduce people and take their souls' evil, but might be normal 'evil' things like hating her job and her employer.

Hmmm.. by that definition most people are EVIL.... LOL

[Mordaedil]

Picture someone working in the town stables, but doesn't care about the horses, hates the customers, doesn't care about working times, pretty much hate her job. Evil doesn't have to be dominating or complete destruction types.
That's not evil, mate, that's having been forced into a situation you aren't comfortable with due to circumstances. Most people in the world hate their jobs (lucky few that do not; myself included, but I am surrounded by people who hate the same job)

Like, you are right in that evil doesn't have to be dominating or complete destruction type people, but you decided to pick an really odd, human trait to label as "evil". By your definition, the old ladies working in the cashier front here are evil because they don't get the new-fangled technology they have to deal with and they wish they were in a different vocation altogether.

Evil is self-interest to the point of detriment of others. Neutrality is self-interest without maliciousness. Good is only self-interested when it cannot harm anyone else.

Hating ones job doesn't really factor into that, albeit how the guy treats people can be.