Elemental Spells for Draconic bloodline Sorcerers [Archive]

Waffle_Iron

2016-11-20, 12:42 PM

Hey guys, one of my players asked a question regarding Elemental Affinity, the draconic bloodline sorcerer feature for 6th level.
Specifically, he asked "How many elemental spells of each type are there, and are they Spell Attacks or Saves?"
My off the cuff answer was "Probably way more fire spells, so probably also a better selection of saves, too."

I was curious though, so I went through the PHB, EE, and SCAG and compiled a list.
Sorcerer spells only, elemental damage only.
If you see any omissions, or errors, let me know.

This list doesn't indicate predicted damage, or whether the spell is good, etc.
Just level, element, AoE or # of Targets, RSA or save type, and effect on miss.
I figure most of you have a good grasp on which spells are damage dealers.

Also, I'm not sure how to, do a table in forum posts, so the formatting is terribad if I try to post it here..
You could grab this and plop it into a spreadsheet for filtering and sorting, which is what I've done.

Link to my Google Spreadsheet doc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1t3AOVnTDrLK6KoC5MxJhD8WeTE4T5ZkreBbHQLt1__k/edit?usp=sharing)

Of Note:
- Yes, FIRE has the most spells and most variety.
- Interestingly, only one spell has both elemental damage and a save other than dex/con that I found, and it's the much maligned lightning lure.
- POISON is terrible, seriously, don't do this to yourself.
- I've included Prismatic Spray on the list, even though the elemental type is determined randomly.

Let me know if you try to use it and can't, I'll try to figure out a fix.

Tanarii

2016-11-20, 12:51 PM

Why does he care if they are attack rolls or saves?

Almost all spells are saves btw, other than cantrips. There are a few standouts at low level (Chromatic Orb, Melf's Acid Arrow), but the general rule of thumb is spells use saves.

Edit: don't forget cantrips tho. People often ignore that sorcerers are cantrip blasters, especially dragon sorcerers due to this class feature. That's one of their scticks. And Poison Spray is a good one for damage and being able to be used in melee. And giving you a good resistance type.

Waffle_Iron

2016-11-20, 12:52 PM

Why does he care if they are attack rolls or saves?

Almost all spells are saves btw, other than cantrips. There are a few standouts at low level (Chromatic Orb, Melf's Acid Arrow), but the general rule of thumb is spells use saves.

I think it was curiosity more than anything.
"Do I roll, or does the GM?" had been a topic of conversation that night regarding other types of non-related rolls, covering the gamut.

Cantrips are in there as 0 level spells.
I want poison spray to be a good cantrip, but, I don't know. Poison is the most resisted damage type in the MM, but then again, not for humanoids. Poison spray is a con save, too, which is worse than a Dex save, going by the number of MM entries which have higher Con. But again, not if you are fighting humanoids.

Yeah the highest level spell that isn't a save is Storm Sphere at level 4

MasterMercury

2016-11-20, 11:35 PM

So green has 2 spells. Poison spray cantrip and then Cloud-kill.
Hmm. Cloudkill is fun for something like a land Druid, which is immune to poison. For my sorc, not as good. Too bad.

Poison spray is fun though. With the elemental affinity, it's basically a one-handed great-axe with reach.
That doesn't work against fiends, undead, elementals, constructs...
Hmm. Poison does kind of suck.

Tanarii

2016-11-21, 12:05 AM

So green has 2 spells. Poison spray cantrip and then Cloud-kill. Chromatic Orb. Good spell, especially twinned.

Hmm. Poison does kind of suck.Oh, it totally sucks in terms of available spells, and number of things that resist it. But 4d12+Cha is pretty sweet at will damage, if you're going to be focusing your known spells on things other than damage. Which is a fairly common approach to Dragon Sorc builds, from what I've seen in AL and players in my own campaign. A few core damage spells of your damage type, typically Chromatic Orb + 1 more, 1-2 off damage-type spells for when you face resistance, and the rest non-damaging. And then blasting with your element cantrip when wanting to conserve spell slots. (This is thru level 10-11, which is where I play and DM the most.)

DracoKnight

2016-11-21, 12:23 AM

I think it was curiosity more than anything.
"Do I roll, or does the GM?" had been a topic of conversation that night regarding other types of non-related rolls, covering the gamut.

Cantrips are in there as 0 level spells.
I want poison spray to be a good cantrip, but, I don't know. Poison is the most resisted damage type in the MM, but then again, not for humanoids. Poison spray is a con save, too, which is worse than a Dex save, going by the number of MM entries which have higher Con. But again, not if you are fighting humanoids.

Yeah the highest level spell that isn't a save is Storm Sphere at level 4

Slight correction: Only 4 monsters resist poison damage. 102 are immune to it, however.

SharkForce

2016-11-21, 01:09 AM

lightning lure is much-maligned?

i'll grant that it's probably much ignored... but i don't think i've heard anyone actually saying bad things about it. it's kinda niche, in that you probably only want it over anything else for the forced movement, but i've never seen anyone define it as absolute garbage.

are you perhaps thinking of witch bolt? (which doesn't have any save, and is definitely much-maligned, largely because it is an awfully designed spell that a lot of people really want to like because it sounds really cool).

Kryx

2016-11-21, 05:25 AM

I calculated the number of each damage type on my spells spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=1072640316).

Opinion: The imbalance among elemental types is problematic. I houseruled a few spells to balance out the numbers. Those can be seen on Spells (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJUmV-6I).

PeteNutButter

2016-11-21, 10:12 AM

Joe the Rat

2016-11-21, 10:41 AM

So Fire by a mile for options, followed by Cold, then Lightning (which has some less favored spells). Cold pulled ahead thanks to EE - Ice Knife and Snilloc's Snowballs.

HunterMarked

2016-11-21, 12:39 PM

Wow. Why did WotC let so many fire spells in the game relative to the other elemental types? Shouldn't they fix that somehow?

Tanarii

2016-11-21, 01:21 PM

Wow. Why did WotC let so many fire spells in the game relative to the other elemental types? Shouldn't they fix that somehow?
5e is a 'back to tradition' version of D&D in a lot of ways. And 'fixing' (read 'tinkering with') things isn't something they're very keen on.

HunterMarked

2016-11-23, 06:36 AM

Yes, but by fixing I mean you know, adding spells and stuff from other damage types

Waffle_Iron

2016-11-23, 02:44 PM

So Fire by a mile for options, followed by Cold, then Lightning (which has some less favored spells). Cold pulled ahead thanks to EE - Ice Knife and Snilloc's Snowballs.

I added Thunder spells as well, for Storm sorcerers.
Lightning plus thunder is a pretty decent list.

Tiwanoz

2016-11-23, 05:08 PM

We usually just reskin the damage type and name for a spell a player really likes but doesn't deal the characters' "favored" damage type.

That Fireball? Now it deals Cold damage and is called Glacial Shards or something along those lines.

DragonSorcererX

2016-11-23, 06:05 PM

Yes, but by fixing I mean you know, adding spells and stuff from other damage types

You are the DM, just pick DMG spell homebreweing table, give it a flashy name, the indicated damage and the range that you find appropriate and done (and it will probably be more balanced than Eldritch Blast, and I am saying that, the hater of low-powered realism)! You made a spell in less than 5 mins...

JakOfAllTirades

2016-11-24, 02:14 AM

I'm considering the creation of a homebrew Metamagic option for altering the damage type of Elemental spells.

What I've got so far:

1) Pick one elemental damage type. Using this Metamagic option, an elemental spell's damage may be converted to that type. The damage type to which damage will be converted should be chosen when this Metamagic option is first taken, and cannot be altered. (Because being able to convert spells to multiple damage types would be potentially very OP.)

2) I'm really not sure how many Sorcery Points this should cost. It's a potentially powerful ability. So far the most costly Metamagic uses 3 SP to give disadvantage on a save. Bypassing resistance or immunity to a damage type will often have the same effect or better. (Half damage v. full damage.)

3) I'm not 100% sure which damage types to include. Fire, Cold, Lightning, Thunder, and Acid are definitely on the list. I'm not sure if Poison makes sense to include as well, but from a game design standpoint it would be great if Green Dragon sorcerers didn't completely suck.

Tanarii

2016-11-24, 05:27 AM

I'm considering the creation of a homebrew Metamagic option for altering the damage type of Elemental spells.
Nice. That's a more balanced approach than just handing out homebrewed spells tailored to a sorc's favored damage type.

SharkForce

2016-11-24, 10:53 AM

Nice. That's a more balanced approach than just handing out homebrewed spells tailored to a sorc's favored damage type.

no it isn't.

now you're requiring a sorcerer to give up a metamagic which is the only class feature they have that's worth anything at all. it is taking literally the only reason the class is worth even looking at from a mechanical perspective and expecting that non-fire sorcerers dedicate this critical class resource just because they didn't want to be a fire sorcerer.

that's a terrible idea. it creates a massive imbalance between dragon sorcerers that have a fire breathing dragon and every other type of dragon much worse than the current situation. and it also doesn't really make your spells much the theme... an ice spell that fits in with the theme of ice is a way better solution than a metamagic that makes your fireball deal cold damage.

Kryx

2016-11-24, 10:59 AM

no it isn't.

now you're requiring a sorcerer to give up a metamagic which is the only class feature they have that's worth anything at all. it is taking literally the only reason the class is worth even looking at from a mechanical perspective and expecting that non-fire sorcerers dedicate this critical class resource just because they didn't want to be a fire sorcerer.

that's a terrible idea. it creates a massive imbalance between dragon sorcerers that have a fire breathing dragon and every other type of dragon much worse than the current situation. and it also doesn't really make your spells much the theme... an ice spell that fits in with the theme of ice is a way better solution than a metamagic that makes your fireball deal cold damage.
Indeed!
Homebrewing balanced spells of each type is by far the most balanced way. The metamagic options suggested above is a band-aid which makes the cost even higher for casters using those types.

ad_hoc

2016-11-24, 11:06 AM

Melf's Acid Arrow isn't a Sorcerer spell. Sorcerer's don't get any of the named spells in the PHB. I think they get all of them from EE.

Tanarii

2016-11-24, 12:58 PM

no it isn't.Yes it is. It's adding a new option for any sorcerers that want extra options in terms of spells for their spell type, at a cost.

Fire Dragon sorcerers have to either take Elemental Affinity to deal with that being a more common resistance, or select off-damage type spells as backup. They already got a balancing cost for choosing to select the most common element in terms of spell options of their element: it's the most commonly resisted element. So even they can take advantage of this metamagic if they choose, instead of selecting off-element spells.

It's also a useful option for any sorcerer that wants to cut down on number of spells they select to cover varying elemental types, again at a cost. All in all its a great addition to metamagic.

However, do think poison is a sadly sub-par elemental due to so many enemies being flat out immune. Although of course ymmv depending on what you're fighting in your specific campaign.

SharkForce

2016-11-24, 03:14 PM

fire resistance is the most common because an entire category of enemies have it (basically, fiends). not because a lot of different types of enemies have it. also, every sorcerer should have some non-damaging spells anyways, which is perfectly fine as a backup. fire affinity is a good idea for a fire sorcerer, but it is not remotely a requirement.

certainly, it is not nearly as crippling a requirement as giving up 1/4 of all the metamagics you will ever have (and even more painful, 1/2 of the metamagics you'll see for the first long while), as i must remind you once again: the only mechanical reason to even look at sorcerer is to get metamagic.

feats are nice, don't get me wrong. but they're a much lower cost than a metamagic. it isn't even close.

Waffle_Iron

2016-11-25, 07:52 AM

Melf's Acid Arrow isn't a Sorcerer spell. Sorcerer's don't get any of the named spells in the PHB. I think they get all of them from EE.

Thanks! I've updated the spreadsheet.

JakOfAllTirades

2016-11-25, 12:01 PM

Kryx

2016-11-25, 12:10 PM

If you're saying the Sorcerer class should get more than four Metamagic abilities, I'd have to agree.
He's saying that and that damage type options should not come at the cost of a tax.

All options should be viable - poison, acid, fire, cold, lightning, etc. The types don't need to do the same damage or have the same utility, but poison having 9 spells and acid having 12 compared to fire's 30, cold's 18, etc does not allow those types of casters much room for success while maintaining a theme.
And no, 9 spells (2 of which are cantrips) are not viable as a theme.

Waffle_Iron

2016-11-25, 01:17 PM

...poison having 9 spells and acid having 12 compared to fire's 30, cold's 18...
And no, 9 spells (2 of which are cantrips) are not viable as a theme.

Poison has 9 spells? Which ones am I missing?
Or are the additional spells outside the sorcerer list?

Baptor

2016-11-25, 01:31 PM

Wow. Why did WotC let so many fire spells in the game relative to the other elemental types? Shouldn't they fix that somehow?

My fix for this so far is that Dragon Sorcerers can spend 1 sorc point to convert any damage spell type to the type of their ancestor.

So acidic fireballs, poison lighting bolts, just gotta burn a sorc point.

It's not a perfect fix, more like a good patch for now.

Kryx

2016-11-25, 01:52 PM

Poison has 9 spells? Which ones am I missing?
Or are the additional spells outside the sorcerer list?
The number is actually 7 by RAW. My houserules added 2 to the list. See
my damage types list (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=1072640316). The List tab shows poison has the following spells: Poison Spray, Chromatic Orb, Ray of Sickness, Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill, Prismatic Spray, Prismatic Wall.

JakOfAllTirades

2016-11-25, 02:32 PM

Ray of Sickness:

A ray o f sickening greenish energy lashes out toward
a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack
against the target. On a hit, the target takes 2d8 poison
damage and must make a Constitution saving throw.
On a failed save, it is also poisoned until the end of
your next turn.

Kryx

2016-11-25, 03:28 PM

Ray of Sickness:
Brain farted ray of enfeeblement which could effectively fall under that same umbrella of poison. And that utility is great (if Ray of Enfeeblment was good), but the number don't stack up.

Waffle_Iron

2016-11-25, 05:56 PM

The number is actually 7 by RAW. My houserules added 2 to the list. See
my damage types list (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=1072640316). The List tab shows poison has the following spells: Poison Spray, Chromatic Orb, Ray of Sickness, Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill, Prismatic Spray, Prismatic Wall.

Stinking cloud doesn't do any damage, and doesn't really factor in this context, I think.

Prismatic Spray is random and non-controllable, and prismatic wall isn't a sorcerer spell.

JakOfAllTirades

2016-11-25, 09:05 PM

Brain farted ray of enfeeblement which could effectively fall under that same umbrella of poison. And that utility is great (if Ray of Enfeeblment was good), but the number don't stack up.

I'm AFB right now, but Ray of Enfeeblement might not be a Sorcerer spell....

DracoKnight

2016-11-25, 09:16 PM

I'm AFB right now, but Ray of Enfeeblement might not be a Sorcerer spell....

You are correct.

Kryx

2016-11-26, 08:27 AM

Hmm, my point wasn't clear so let me try again:

If you're playing a Sorcerer in a home game then fix it by adding spells of other thematic types. There are a good number of spells from Pathfinder of the other damage types that can easily be converted. I did so using my Spell Balance sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4QC6EmXE0avgk8jK1aubJcaFoZDYw8b_DuPHh8aBTc/edit#gid=639488216) which results in some of the spells on my spells houserules (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJUmV-6I).
You don't like how the Sorcerer's list is terrible and missing a lot of elemental spells? Nor do I. That's why I created my Sorcerer Rework (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SJkLv-WO).
If you're playing in AL or you don't want to make the above changes? Then that's your choice. WotC will likely never fix this so either live with a subpar option or play a different option.

Stinking Cloud, while it doesn't do poison damage, is definitely in the thematics of poison. "Constitution saving throw against poison". Not all spells do damage and not all spells should. Sleet Storm also does no cold damage, but I would firmly place it in the Cold thematic: "freezing rain", "slick ice", etc. Fog Cloud likely falls in the Cold thematic as well, but it does no damage.

TL;DR: Sorcerer is limited in its spell list and the number of each type of thematic spell (cold, fire, lightning) varries. You'll have to fix it or live with it. Also not all thematic spells do damage.

Waffle_Iron

2016-11-26, 04:09 PM

Hmm, my point wasn't clear so let me try again:

Your point was clear enough. :)

Please read the following as generously as you can. None of it is intended to be aggressive, and if I were capable of any more tact, I would use it. I have valued your comments in the past, I appreciate your number crunching, and your perspectives are interesting.

This was a thread about dragon sorcs (and now about dragon and strom sorcs) regarding the 6th level feature Elemental Affinity. So, yeah only damaging spells were really the purview of the discussion. There were a bunch of thematic spells that didn't make the list, simply because they didn't apply, pyrotechnics, for one.

You posted links to your spreadsheets in your first reply, so yeah, I checked them out.

This was not a complaint thread, or a request for homebrew thread, or a discussion of "WHY WIZZORD IS TEH WURST" or anything. I was just putting some general info out there in case anybody wanted it, in case it was useful, to open up discussion, I guess. I don't recall having said that I thought it was broken, just, "here it is"

Homebrew is cool, I guess, and I use my fair share, too. Thanks.

Kryx

2016-11-26, 05:26 PM

I was just putting some general info out there in case anybody wanted it, in case it was useful, to open up discussion, I guess.
And I replied with a more complete list of all spells for people to use. It isn't limited to Sorcerer and I probably should've tailored my replies a bit more to only point out values for Sorcerer, my bad.

The conversation turned, as it normally does. Hence the rest of the replies.

Waffle_Iron

2016-11-26, 06:03 PM

And I replied with a more complete list of all spells for people to use. It isn't limited to Sorcerer and I probably should've tailored my replies a bit more to only point out values for Sorcerer, my bad.

The conversation turned, as it normally does. Hence the rest of the replies.

Nah, you were fine. I guess it's silly to expect a forum post not to pull a sharp 90 degrees. :smallbiggrin:

FWIW, I like your homebrew, and I've long agreed with your position that the sorc needs bonus spells based on sorcerous origin.
I played one table where we opened up the sorc to have access to any non-divine spell, and it worked ok, too. They need either variety at the table, or at level up. either fix seems to work.