Warlord's Gambit (Path of War) Question.

[Ualaa]

This came up last night, in our game.
It doesn't sound balanced to me, but reading the text seems to work as the player said it would.

That's not to say I/he are not missing something, as that happened with the Warder class as well.

Anyway...

As a swift action, the Warlord initiates a Gambit.
He has chosen 'Victory Gambit' (PoW, page 17).

His 'risk' is not killing (reducing to 0, or fewer HPs) the creature on his turn, with his melee (or ranged) standard action or full-attack action.
If he fails, he gets one maneuver back and the 'rake' imposes a -2 to d20 rolls his next round.
If he succeeds, the 'reward' is CHA modifier (as a Morale bonus) to his (and all of his allies, within 60 ft.) next attack roll.

During the gambit, he gets CHA modifier to either the Standard attack, or every attack of the Full-Attack Action.
He can use


So if we're reading this correctly, a Paladin/Anti-Paladin/Warlord, or other Cha using class...

Can trade their Swift action, for +CHA modifier to all attack rolls.
On a fresh target they know they cannot kill this round, so are going to fail basically automatically.
They get to use a maneuver in the process (one of their four readied maneuvers), but cannot recover that specific maneuver for failing to do their gambit successfully.
So they could cycle between the two maneuvers (whether two best, or last two...).



At lower levels, without anything that requires a Swift action, a Warlord (or anyone with a one level dip into the class), gets a free Stance and four maneuvers.
They can use their Swift action (that has no other uses), to get a +4 bonus to their attack roll, get one of their two best maneuvers back (on a fail) or all of them (on a kill), and only suffer a -2 to their attacks next round.
So Swift action is a net attack gain, and free power returned.

At higher levels, the use of the Swift is likely more of a sacrifice.
But the CHA modifier would be a lot higher too.
Near 20th level, at our level of optimization and build rules, 26/30 or 28/28 is fairly common for two stat builds.
So the Swift action gets the melee a +9 bonus on their four attacks, plus haste attack, and refreshes one of their two best maneuvers, but costs a -2 to d20 rolls for the round.
It's hard to thing of a better use of the Swift action (for a primary melee) than to gain +7 to hit on five attack rolls (more with dual-wield/shield-bash etc).

Is the reading correct?

[exelsisxax]

Important error being made:

Victory gambit can't be used with maneuvers. It requires attacking as a standard or full-attacking as a full-round. That makes it much harder to consistently pull off.

Otherwise, not seeing anything wrong, or why you think this is so powerful. Barbarians get to add their gigantic STR to EVERY attack roll, and usually 150% of it to damage. That's a lot better, even when everyone can do it.

[Ualaa]

Just to clarify...

Victory Gambit
"The warlord successfully reduces an opponent to 0 or fewer hit points with a melee or ranged attack on his turn from either a standard attack or full attack action".

So he couldn't use 'Crushing Blow', which reads:
"Initiation Action: 1 standard action" ... in conjunction with his gambit?



How is 1 Standard Action different from a Standard Attack?

I (and my player) were under the impression (and could be wrong), that one standard attack is something you use a Standard action on, but some powers are Immediate/Swift or Full Round Actions.

[TheIronGolem]

Note that any round where you're burning a swift action on a gambit is a round where you're not using a Boost, and those are generally stronger than the gambit's bonus.

[exelsisxax]

Just to clarify...

Victory Gambit
"The warlord successfully reduces an opponent to 0 or fewer hit points with a melee or ranged attack on his turn from either a standard attack or full attack action".

So he couldn't use 'Crushing Blow', which reads:
"Initiation Action: 1 standard action" ... in conjunction with his gambit?



How is 1 Standard Action different from a Standard Attack?

I (and my player) were under the impression (and could be wrong), that one standard attack is something you use a Standard action on, but some powers are Immediate/Swift or Full Round Actions.
You aren't using the standard attack option. Doesn't matter what maneuver or how long they take, you can't use them to fulfill the requirements of victory gambit.

[Ualaa]

Sorry... bear with me please.

I usually go, one of:
- 5 ft. adjust + full-attack action
- Move Action + Standard Action
- Full Round Action

If I move up to the mob, and use my Standard Action to swing my sword at it...
Is that not a Standard Attack?



How does a Standard Attack differ from an attack I make with my Standard Action?
Are they defined as separate actions, somewhere?

[exelsisxax]

That particular gambit explicitly states the requirement that either the standard attack option or full-attack option fulfill its requirements.

The standard attack option is a unique and specific action. If you use your standard action for absolutely anything other than performing the standard attack, you are not performing the standard attack. I literally cannot make this any more clear.

[5ColouredWalker]

How does a Standard Attack differ from an attack I make with my Standard Action?
Are they defined as separate actions, somewhere?
Yep.

Initiating a maneuver is it's own action of variable time based on the manuever. Some grant you an attack as part of that, some grant you more (For example the flurry line from Broken Fist, which is most certainly neither a full attack nor standard attack.), some don't. A Standard Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack) comes closest to being defined here being you taking the Attack action with your standard action. While not called 'Standard Attack', it's called Attack, and is the 'standard' for attacking until you get into higher level slog fests with full attacks.

This same line of logic is why Partial Charges and Manuevers can't be used with Vital Strike.

Also, keep an eye out for the Fate's Favoured trait. Gambit's are luck bonuses, and thus it becomes Charisma+1 with that trait.
Oh, and if he's a Hussaur, look forward to him later doing Gambit/Boost, Move action Aid Another, and then a Manuever, while atop his mount which moves him where he needs to be... And with Mounted Combat/Trick Rider, attacking his horse is just free manuevers.

[Ualaa]

Thank you for the clarification.

A standard action can be a standard attack, and that is all it is.

But a standard action could also be to initiate an maneuver or cast a spell, etc...
In the case of doing anything aside from a standard attack, it is not a standard attack it is the other action that was done.

Perusing the various maneuvers, at higher levels instead of being a Standard Action many are '1 Full Round Action'.
In the case of Victory Gambit, it needs the basic Standard Attack or a Full Attack Action.

A full round action is consuming all your actions for the round, not allowing the full-attack action plus 5 ft. adjust plus swift actions.
As such, a full round action is not the same as a full attack action.