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comk59
2016-11-20, 05:33 PM
So, very recently, my gaming group got a new player, bringing the party up to six! More than I'm usually comfortable DMing, but the group vouched for her, so I decided to throw caution to the wind.

I was, however a little... perplexed when I had to explain to the player what an Orc was.

Or why someone would play one of the, in her words, "ugly" races

Or why, while it may seem cool, it is not a good idea to play a neutral evil character in a good party, especially one with a Dragonkin Paladin.

Or why a druid would turn into a bear or a wolf when owls were much prettier.

Or when I had to ask why she had the Charlatan background when her parents were murdered in a cave when she was four years old, and she spent the subsequent 146 years on her own in the wilderness, a point she brought up many times.

And, on one hand, her character mistrusting the party was fairly good role-playing, considering that they had only just met. But after the first hour-and-a-half it was getting unproductive.


Now, obviously, none of these are awful, unforgivable things. Some of them might even be cultivated into good roleplaying habits. But the session was extremely difficult to keep moving, and this was a session where basically nothing happened. I was wondering if anyone else has had experience teaching people who need a lot of guidance, and how to incorporate it into a mid-level campaign.

Legato Endless
2016-11-20, 07:12 PM
Downsize for a tutorial. If you have someone completely new, it may be more efficient to do a session just for learning the ropes. Have her and two other players run a simple one shot designed around this. The other two players are just so she gets an idea of what group interactions should look like between the party members and the DM. Self demonstration and imitation with a possibility of experimentation are usually faster I find than long explanations. We be Goblins is a great one shot of this type for Pathfinder.

Whatever the system, just do a simple introduction. The big thing if she already can roleplay is to explain clearly the rules of gaming etiquette at your table. This is one thing you basically have to explain and get her to accept even if it doesn't all make sense at first. We all have them. Some of them are extremely common, some might be unique to your table. Some aren't quite as universal as people assume.

Big one for her is pacing based on your example. It's polite to keep the game flowing even if it means bending a character concept or realism to avoid tedium for everyone such as someone learning to trust the party in real-time.

Remedy
2016-11-20, 08:51 PM
Hey, focusing on the prettiness of a creature can be a perfectly fine character trait, and having your starting character act not far off from yourself can be good for inexperienced role players.

Focus instead on helping her choose pretty forms which also have good function. An owl is a fine thing to wildshape into if the purpose of the wild shape isn't just breaking in a bad guy's face, after all. They're great stealth flyers. (And frankly, if she doesn't think snow leopards are pretty, her aesthetics should be immediately disregarded anyway, so there's a combat form for you. :smalltongue: )

Kitten Champion
2016-11-20, 09:28 PM
Having been in the position of the new player not so long ago, I learnt by spectating in on a gaming session and asking what people were doing or why when the opportunity presented itself.

Starting with a mid-level magic-oriented character in a large-ish group like this seems overly daunting to me. There's a lot of learning your role and the nuances of the game on a mechanical level that something D&D/PF entails, and the bigger the group the less opportunity to feel comfortable in the time you have available to sort through your own things. I was sat down for my first few games to help create the character I was thinking about playing, to get my character concept down on the sheet properly and go over any questions as to what anything on it means... and in particularly assure that the concept meshed with the group's for the consistency of the overall narrative.

D&D does have a lot of esoteric knowledge involved, which - while not knowing what an Orc is is something of an extreme example - few people outside the hobby would reasonably expect to possess and will require exposition in any case.

Other than that, it's a matter of - as Legato said - just learning the etiquette and working within the pace of the group.

I've also had the opportunity to teach a group of new players this year who really wanted to do a Pokemon-based game but had no real TTRPG experience among them and so asked me to fill the role of GM. As I was unfamiliar with the system as a whole, and they roleplaying in general, it was a steeper but more comfortably supportive learning curve on all our parts. We could more easily edit the game's rules to suit ourselves, for instance. Chief issue here has been to not dampen anyone's enthusiasm, a stumbling block can quickly become an impenetrable wall if you let it.

Thrudd
2016-11-20, 09:29 PM
Dropping a brand-new-to-fantasy-gaming player into an ongoing D&D game with experienced players is rough for her, and there isn't really an easy solution.

The best way for brand new players is to start at level 1 in a new campaign and keep things very simple. I love having this sort of player, because the whole world is as new to them as it would be for their character. They come in with no preconceived notions and they will form their own opinions and relationship with the world as I describe things to them.

This type of player is not really equipped to start with an experienced character. Even if you give them a very lengthy and detailed primer regarding all the things they should know about the setting, most of it will likely not sink in as well as it would if they experienced it first-hand, just as we all did when we first started reading fantasy books and playing these sorts of games.

In terms of mechanics, keep it simple. After you describe a situation to her, she should tell you what her character wants to do. You roll the dice or tell her when to roll the dice, and then tell her what happens. You should know all her relevant numbers and abilities so you don't need to spend a lot of time asking her to find things on her sheet. Don't worry about her making optimal tactical combat decisions or whether or not she is using all her character's abilities. Those things will come gradually over time as she becomes familiar with the game.

Tell the other players not to interfere or tell her what she should be doing, that is usually unhelpful and confusing for brand new people. They need to give her a lot of slack, encourage her to engage in the fantasy first rather than the game mechanics. Don't worry if she makes mistakes or does things the other players think she shouldn't do - she needs to be able to make mistakes and learn the game by playing it, rather than being told how she ought to play it.

Don't worry about whether her character story makes sense or if she's role playing in a consistent way- she doesn't know anything about the setting or the genre, and it isn't her fault that she's been thrown into a higher level game than she is ready for. She'll figure out who her character is and how to role play over time.

If she has trouble thinking in terms of the character, suggest that she imagine herself in the situations you describe and then tell you what she thinks and what she'd try to do. Just be as detailed as you can when describing the world, and encourage her to picture herself there. Don't use names like "Orc" and "Gnoll" to describe things, of course she doesn't know what that is. Actually describe what the creatures look and sound and smell like. Afterward, you or somebody can say what name the creature goes by. In general, anything that is a fantasy creature or object, describe what it looks like first, give the names afterward.

wumpus
2016-11-21, 11:25 AM
While I agree with all of the above, I will also point out that there is absolutely no reason to teach game mechanics unless the player actively asks for such (or playing in a group where not knowing them is a handicap. I suspect such would be the wrong group anyway). In sufficiently old school games (at least before 2e, probably before 3e and extending to non-TSR games as well) it was assumed that most of the game mechanics were supposed to be only known by the gamemaster.

Probably the best game I ever played was Villains&Vigilantes, in which I was completely ignorant of the rules (and my understanding of superheroes was limited to Saturday morning superfriends, while the gamemaster was a comic book fanatic). Of course, this means you have to describe the world as a *world* and can't fall back on RPG tropes (which improves the game further, and has been noted in this thread). Also remember that in old school games, gamemasters could play fast and loose with the rules. I *know* my gamemaster's understanding of D&D was really shaky, I doubt his V&V was any better. In such a system you can let "rule of player improvement">"rule of cool">"rules of your RPG" without anyone calling you on it (although obviously should let any visible and remembered examples teach "correct" play, whatever that is).

One other possible teaching method is the Gandalf: an overpowered NPC/DMPC that might be the embodiment of typical DMPC flaws (he not only leads the adventure but also makes sure nothing goes terribly wrong), but skips out of the quest (classically by dying, but possibly ala Gandalf in The Hobbit) halfway through (or at least once the players get the hang of the game).

Martin Greywolf
2016-11-23, 01:24 PM
I was, however a little... perplexed when I had to explain to the player what an Orc was.

Or why someone would play one of the, in her words, "ugly" races

Or why, while it may seem cool, it is not a good idea to play a neutral evil character in a good party, especially one with a Dragonkin Paladin.

Or why a druid would turn into a bear or a wolf when owls were much prettier.

Or when I had to ask why she had the Charlatan background when her parents were murdered in a cave when she was four years old, and she spent the subsequent 146 years on her own in the wilderness, a point she brought up many times.

And, on one hand, her character mistrusting the party was fairly good role-playing, considering that they had only just met. But after the first hour-and-a-half it was getting unproductive.


Not knowing what an orc is, eh, fair enough. Honestly, I'd ask what an orc is too, you never know if it's Tolkien orc, Warhammer ork, Warcraft orc or any other of the many varieties.

Why someone would play ugly character - well, this comes to pretty deep game design theory, but long story short, there are several things people want in games, and different people want different things even from the same game. Seems your player is looking for wish fulfilment, and in that case, playing ugly character does in fact make zero sense. Treat this as an insight into what your player wants from your game.

NE character in a good party, well, we saw this happen in movies an awful lot, and it takes a while to figure out that TTRPGs don't work that way, and what way they work. I think everyone here thought that something like this is a good idea at some point, and it can be, depending on players present and definition of NE - just not something a new player should attempt. So, fairly common thing to expect.

Pretty forms - again, wish fulfilment angle. Talk with the player and get some pretty-looking animals with enough utility. Snow leopard was already suggested, but honestly, with DnD, you could just make a giant owl and call it a day. If RAW doesn't allow it, well, this is the time to go bend that rule (provided giant owl is in line with level-appropriate combat forms, e.g. a bear).

Charlatan - a very, very common mistake when building character, and not just among the newbies. Your player just got lost during increasing numbers and didn't stop to look at the fluff. A significant part of teaching new players is spotting this.

As for the mistrust, well, tell your player what worked and that there needs to be some character growth - from the sound of things, you have an excited player on your hands, so you shouldn't have any problems there.

MarkVIIIMarc
2016-11-26, 12:09 AM
I am back into it after awhile and I found it easy to print a couple lists.

One is all my spell descriptions straight from the handbook. That way I don't need to flip pages looking for range or what is an action or what the save is.

On another page I have my Bard abilities typed out.

Then I have my stat sheet which has more room left on it.

I don't need to flip through the whole handbook past the 101010 other spells and the other races or elf or Bard abilities I don't have to figure out what I can do that way.

Maybe help her make one.

Yuki Akuma
2016-11-27, 09:24 AM
Man, I wish my brand-new-to-roleplaying players were that interested in actually roleplaying.

2D8HP
2016-11-27, 03:15 PM
Man, I wish my brand-new-to-roleplaying players were that interested in actually roleplaying.Really? I'm finding that actually role-playing a character suggested by a PC's back-story is disruptive, and it's best to stay with the party and follow obvious plot hooks instead.

Frozen_Feet
2016-11-27, 04:12 PM
Really? I'm finding that actually role-playing a character suggested by a PC's back-story is disruptive, and it's best to stay with the party and follow obvious plot hooks instead.

Your experience is not invalid, but it's born of a specific gaming style where 1) the GM designs game scenarios so that they require co-operation to solve and 2) players are more interested in solving GM-presented challenges than acting drama between their characters.

This naturally encourages group thinking where desires and goals of individual character are secondary to those of the group.

The face of the game, and how important backstories are, changes dramatically when scenarios are designed to not require co-operation or even to actively pit player characters against each other. At that point, backstories are the plothooks and the "disruptive" behaviour is the point of the game.

---


So, very recently, my gaming group got a new player, bringing the party up to six! More than I'm usually comfortable DMing, but the group vouched for her, so I decided to throw caution to the wind.

Is this new player a teenage girl? Because it sounds like she is.


Now, obviously, none of these are awful, unforgivable things. Some of them might even be cultivated into good roleplaying habits. But the session was extremely difficult to keep moving, and this was a session where basically nothing happened. I was wondering if anyone else has had experience teaching people who need a lot of guidance, and how to incorporate it into a mid-level campaign.

I run primarily convention games these days which means most groups consist of relative strangers, with many being completely new to tabletop RPGs.

I would like to hear more of how you answered her many wonderings. How you answered her would tell me more of what sort of a game you're used to running and what kind of behaviour you expect.

Also, tell more of what kind of characters the other players are playing in the campaign. The biggest problem for you likely is that the newcomer does not know what the other player characters are like and how they'd react to various hijinks. If you or the other players are not happy playing Cops and Robbers with her character(s), it will get old fast.

KnightOfV
2016-11-27, 04:38 PM
I played with a similar girl over the years that wanted to use only 'pretty' races and only wanted a tiger as an animal companion (no you can't have that at first level). Don't be afraid to refluff some things if it fits her ideas better. (Here is your level one Tiger companion. It's using the "wolf" stats.) Let her tell you what she's trying to do, then you and the other players show her the rule that makes it happen. Focus on the fun stuff, and don't try to force the rules on her too fast. It's a lot of math and charts, and not everyone is into that right away. Especially starting at midlevel.

New players don't know a lot of the stuff we take for granted as obvious, so when I DMed, I would try to show them instead of tell them these things. She wonders why a druid would want to turn into animals good at fighting over animals that look 'pretty', because has not seen how much combat factors into the game and maybe doesn't know her primary goal is 'killing enemies'. Let her turn into an owl, have her fun, see how it goes. Owls aren't useless, maybe she has ideas for scouting, or escaping quickly in combat. Maybe after a few fights IF she asks "how can I do more damage," you can bring up bears again. :smallbiggrin: Plan encounters assuming that she won't contribute much at first, then as she finds tactics that work and starts enjoying the fights, scale the challenge up.

If she doesn't trust the party, tell her completely serious that she can leave and go off on her own. (I've done this one...) Suggest there might be danger around, but let her play her character. If she leaves, roll some dice behind the screen and tell her, 'oh no, you've encountered some bandits/undead/wild animals. There are a lot of them, what do you do?' She will probably retreat back to the party and ask for their help to fight them (let her escape this time, she's new!) or if she fights, get knocked unconscious (don't kill her!) party has to rescue her, and there you go lesson learned, plot advanced. And now she will forever know why you don't split the party.

comk59
2016-11-28, 11:46 PM
I want to thank everyone for the responses, they've actually helped a lot. I want to be clear that I wasn't ragging on her for not knowing these gaming conventions, I've just never had to start a fresh meat player mid-campaign. That being said, I feel like I've gotten some pretty good advice overall.



Is this new player a teenage girl? Because it sounds like she is.

Didn't ask, but yeah, I think she's eighteen or so.





I would like to hear more of how you answered her many wonderings. How you answered her would tell me more of what sort of a game you're used to running and what kind of behaviour you expect.


Alright, fair enough.


I had to explain to the player what an Orc was.

A race of tusked humanoids who are known for their warriors, and oppose the Elves over ownership of (Abandoned Fantasy Ruins). They also hired the party to help them clear a Gnoll fortress from one of their sacred sites. The party did this by dropping half a mountain on the Gnoll fortress, which is where you were being held prisoner.


why someone would play one of the, in her words, "ugly" races.
Even a fantasy world can be ugly at times, especially for adventurers.


why, while it may seem cool, it is not a good idea to play a neutral evil character in a good party, especially one with a Dragonkin Paladin.
Because the firebreathing Lizard Man doesn't like backstabbers. Most people don't, actually. And at the end of the day, this is a team of adventurers.


why a druid would turn into a bear or a wolf when owls were much prettier.

Druids are defenders of nature, and defending something will sometimes mean you have to put yourself at risk. (I don't usually reinforce class obligations, but the player is an environmentalist IRL, so I decided to give her an easy way to connect with the character.)




Also, tell more of what kind of characters the other players are playing in the campaign. The biggest problem for you likely is that the newcomer does not know what the other player characters are like and how they'd react to various hijinks. If you or the other players are not happy playing Cops and Robbers with her character(s), it will get old fast.

Victor, Human Fighter. An aging warrior plagued by mysterious, plot hooky dreams. Wishes to find answers and end the dreams so he can return home to his wife and daughter, who I'm sure will never come under any sort of danger. *COUGHCOUGH* The de facto leader of the group. Uses his instincts (read: took a feat that gave him Augury) to help lead those under his command to victory.


Sok'Nar, Dragonkin Vengeance Paladin/Dragonblood Sorcerer. On a bit of a crusade to stamp out cultists after the destruction of his tribe, but knows he's not strong enough yet. Looking for a way to unlock the power of his heritage, and strike back against the forces of evil. Loves fire maybe a bit too much. Has a weirdly abusive friendship with...


Taren, Half Elf Thief/Druid. Classic Kleptomaniac motivated by money and the thrill of adventure (And also by the fact that a mysterious benefactor is paying him buckets of money to write reports about the party's actions. He's somehow not the least bit suspicious about this). Uses his unique shapeshifting talents to get into places no one else can. I let him shapeshift into CR0 creatures for 1/2 of his normal shapeshift charges.


Sylvie, Half elf bard. Adventures to try and make up for a mysterious event in her past that somehow involves a cult. Has a young Owlbear named Waldo who is her pet and non-combat mount. Doesn't ike combat, and being stalked by and vicious Halfling sized Gnoll with twin daggers, who has a grudge against her for no apparent reason.


Hale, Human Ranger. Spent the the last 190 years / 3 months (depending on how you look at it) In a time blizzard. It makes sense in context.
Actually, this character joined the same session the new player did. This players old character is Loren, a High Elf who's family is opposing the Orcs, and when the Party sided with the Orcs, sort of started a race war. Although to be fair, Taren contributed too. Regardless, the group decided that it would be best for Loren to become more of a party rival, and now we have Hale as a newcomer.


You know, writing it all out makes the party seem a tad dysfunctional. Maybe that's one of the problems we're having with integrating a newbie.