I want to create a Black Hole

[Tainted_Scholar]

I'm trying to figure out how to create a permanent black hole with magic.

Polymorph Any Object came to mind, but I couldn't figure out how to make it permanent.

[darksolitaire]

I'm trying to figure out how to create a permanent black hole with magic.

Polymorph Any Object came to mind, but I couldn't figure out how to make it permanent.

Unfortunately Polymorph Any Object has close range, and I'm not sure it's wise to stand close to a black hole, permanent or not.

[ryu]

I'm trying to figure out how to create a permanent black hole with magic.

Polymorph Any Object came to mind, but I couldn't figure out how to make it permanent.

By RAW? Cast the spell twice. This is of course assuming you've some manner of method to survive even relatively short time spent in contact with a black hole's area of influence. Probably cast by proxy ideally in an entirely different plane? Like seriously an entirely empty plane you made yourself for exactly this purpose? If not I don't think you fully understand the destruction you'd cause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nHBGFKLHZQ

[Tvtyrant]

There are a few ways to do this if you treat physics as normal but with magic, but that path is one that ends in completely broken exploits (commoner railguns at the very least). The easiest one is to get a commoner with chicken infested, quick draw and a gnomish quickrazor and simply make chickens until there is a gravitational collapse. Create water trap in a permanent shaped wall of force to make infinitely dense water is another, dropping ring gates into the hearts of several major stars is yet another.

From a "someone might let this happen" perspective, extremely epic level magic is the only way.

[Darrin]

You can turn a pig into a black hole (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342604-Can-you-swing-a-pig-weighing-your-max-load) with the Pig Bond flaw (Dragon #330).

[KillingAScarab]

I'm trying to figure out how to create a permanent black hole with magic.O.K. Can you create artifacts? One of those things which it is recommended only enter a campaign at a DM's discretion? A sphere of annihilation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#sphereofAnnihilation) is an artifact with a caster level of 20th. If not, I think you're limited to the shard of entropy class feature of the entropomancer prestige class from Complete Divine.

[ryu]

O.K. Can you create artifacts? One of those things which it is recommended only enter a campaign at a DM's discretion? A sphere of annihilation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#sphereofAnnihilation) is an artifact with a caster level of 20th. If not, I think you're limited to the shard of entropy class feature of the entropomancer prestige class from Complete Divine.

Just gonna take a moment to say that a sphere of annihilation is significantly less frightening than a black hole. A sphere of annihilation only directly effects it's area where a black hole is going to end everything even remotely close to it even if it only has the mass of an american nickel. With a diameter of one? The planet is over and the solar system is in for some notable changes.

[Troacctid]

You'll have to research a spell to do this.

[Darrin]

You'll have to research a spell to do this.

Doesn't sphere of ultimate destruction (Spell Compendium) already cover this? Obviously not permanent, of course, but there are ways to muck around with the duration (or just spam it with spell clocks).

[John Longarrow]

Doesn't sphere of ultimate destruction (Spell Compendium) already cover this? Obviously not permanent, of course, but there are ways to muck around with the duration (or just spam it with spell clocks).

I don't think so. Everything within the event horizon gets pulled towards the center at the speed of light. Items close by outside gets pulled towards it at a rate based on the total mass of the black hole and how close they are to it.

Black hole out in the Kuiper belt is going to mess with the earth, pulling it off its orbit. Black hole at or close to the moons orbit is going to destroy the world in about a second.

In game terms if you can make one, the world goes bye bye that round.

[Coidzor]

Transdimensional Spell Metamagic is going to be a must for this.

Assuming you're not just going to pick your favorite means of magically creating mass and then setting them up to spam ad nauseum or finagle a recursively growing horde of angel simulacra to do it all at once.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Unfortunately Polymorph Any Object has close range, and I'm not sure it's wise to stand close to a black hole, permanent or not.

short conclusion: time stop + PAO

long conclusion: time stop will speed you up to faster then time travel rendering you immune to the effects of anything with normal time, including incredibly dense objects, then just plane shift.

2nd conclusion: cast sphere of annihilation with reverse gravity towards it then make both the spells made living spells

3rd & final answer: rope tick through a bag of holding inside another bag then inside rope tick, results astral plane and material plane being sucked into the astral plane which is being infinitely sucked into the astral plane. turn the universe inside-out



results: Chaotic evil alignment
you killed any god, you have [inset long string of numbers] divine ranks
there is only the far realm now, good luck your character is now mad
time doesn't pass
with this power you have gained you know have the ability to recreate the universe
=====Physics book to the face
=====DMG to the face
=====Any other book within reach to the face
=====A couple of shoes to the face
man i feel bad for your face

[Melcar]

I'm trying to figure out how to create a permanent black hole with magic.

Polymorph Any Object came to mind, but I couldn't figure out how to make it permanent.

Well... Black Holes aren't permanent. They evaporate through Hawking Radiation. Anyways.

I would say create a hybrid [very]epic spell where you somehow create a multiple casting of a beefed up version of Implosion. Its the only spell I can remember that resembles the effect. You can do math to find out how much matter you would actually need. So perhaps use Major Creation to create a very large amount of high density matter, like platinum. Maybe you you "mold" that with the modified implosion, to increase the density. The Major create that new denser version of platinum or just more platinum and repeat the process until you have passed the Schwarzschild Radius. However. You would have to compress the Earth to about the size of a peanut for that to happen so be ready to cast major creation many, many, many many, many, many, many, many, many... many times over. Which goes too for the implosion.

After you succeed you game world will end!

[Tainted_Scholar]

Unfortunately Polymorph Any Object has close range, and I'm not sure it's wise to stand close to a black hole, permanent or not.

Being incorporeal would be the easiest way to protect yourself.

[hamishspence]

Well... Black Holes aren't permanent. They evaporate through Hawking Radiation. Anyways.

I would say create a hybrid [very]epic spell where you somehow create a multiple casting of a beefed up version of Implosion. Its the only spell I can remember that resembles the effect. You can do math to find out how much matter you would actually need. So perhaps use Major Creation to create a very large amount of high density matter, like platinum. Maybe you you "mold" that with the modified implosion, to increase the density. The Major create that new denser version of platinum or just more platinum and repeat the process until you have passed the Schwarzschild Radius. However. You would have to compress the Earth to about the size of a peanut for that to happen so be ready to cast major creation many, many, many many, many, many, many, many, many... many times over. Which goes too for the implosion.

After you succeed you game world will end!

Elder Evils had something like this - drop a Sphere of Annihilation into a Well of Many Worlds, and the resulting gravitational vortex grows, draining the entire campaign universe into it in a short space of time unless something (a deity?) intervenes - it was the Kyuss adventure.

[ryu]

Being incorporeal would be the easiest way to protect yourself.

Oh sweet that protects YOU until such time as all the breathable air is gone. What about the rest of the planet which is now dead?

[Stealth Marmot]

Cast the wish spell and say "I wish this wish would not be granted."

[Inevitability]

Oh sweet that protects YOU until such time as all the breathable air is gone. What about the rest of the planet which is now dead?

If you're high enough level to PaO stuff and turn incorporeal, chances are a Necklace of Adaptation is within your budget.

As for the second, that doesn't really matter. On the off chance you do need a random living body for some ritual, you can just create one with Minor Servitor + Incarnate Construct.

[Melcar]

Being incorporeal would be the easiest way to protect yourself.

Hmm.. Why? Space (the plane) itself is moving towards and into the singularity of the black hole, at en ever increasing rate. At a certain point space will move faster than your speed, meaning that if you start too close, you will never get away. Depending on the Schwarzschild Radius of course!

[Tainted_Scholar]

Hmm.. Why? Space (the plane) itself is moving towards and into the singularity of the black hole, at en ever increasing rate. At a certain point space will move faster than your speed, meaning that if you start too close, you will never get away. Depending on the Schwarzschild Radius of course!

Yeah, but I won't get crushed to death and I can simply teleport away.

[Melcar]

Yeah, but I won't get crushed to death and I can simply teleport away.

Besides the fact that your body would be stretched indefinitely. Not to mention the fact that your would be effectively disintegrated by the tidal forces. You would not be able to use verbal or somatic components or materials for that matter... Again the disintegration...

EDIT: I say fact, since thats what the math says... actually nobody really knows. But that is the best we've got. So that with what I ague!

[Tainted_Scholar]

Besides the fact that your body would be stretched indefinitely. Not to mention the fact that your would be effectively disintegrated by the tidal forces. You would not be able to use verbal or somatic components or materials for that matter... Again the disintegration...

I'm incorporeal, only magic can effect me.

EDIT; Ok there's probably something else out there that could harm me, but I don't think a Black Hole would.

[Melcar]

I'm incorporeal, only magic can effect me.

EDIT; Ok there's probably something else out there that could harm me, but I don't think a Black Hole would.

Incorporeal creatures would exist on the same plane as the black hole too right... And since the whole plane would at some point get destroyed with everything in it... even light cant escape. You might not die, but I'm fairly sure you would be de facto imprisoned and ever falling, stretching... faster and faster! That might not kill a magical undead being. Also times stands still, so yeah... it pretty much over... As far as I know!

[Inevitability]

On incorporeality and black holes: I thought gravitational attraction only applies to stuff that has mass?

[Manyasone]

Time doesn't have mass, last I checked.... Although the last hours at work sometimes do weigh heavy

[John Longarrow]

Depending on what you want to accomplish, NOT having the black hole permanent could be really useful.

Pop.. Black hole...
20 minutes later
Pop.. No black hole...

What happens to a planets worth of mater that's been confined to a single point when the gravity is no longer great enough to hold it together???

:belkar:

[ryu]

On incorporeality and black holes: I thought gravitational attraction only applies to stuff that has mass?

Actually it applies to anything with momentum. Light has momentum as does any incorporeal else they couldn't move. And if we start assuming no mass for incorporeals things start getting really complicated, really fast, no black hole required.

John: The answer is an explosive force wave stronger than any bomb humanity has ever created. That's for a black hole with enough mass to last 1X10-23 seconds. You don't want to see what would happen for one lasting 20 minutes. No. Just.... no.

[John Longarrow]

ryu, hence the :belkar:....

Gotta love making weapons that use the entire mass of a planet as their power source...

[Tainted_Scholar]

Incorporeal creatures would exist on the same plane as the black hole too right... And since the whole plane would at some point get destroyed with everything in it... even light cant escape. You might not die, but I'm fairly sure you would be de facto imprisoned and ever falling, stretching... faster and faster! That might not kill a magical undead being. Also times stands still, so yeah... it pretty much over... As far as I know!

What would happen if I cast Temporal Repair?

[Melcar]

Time doesn't have mass, last I checked.... Although the last hours at work sometimes do weigh heavy

Have you watched Interstellar? Kip Thorne, who is a theoretical physicist wrote the math on the time dialation of heavy objects (In that movie, using the real math). The time dilation in that movie is as accurate depiction we can have. Weight and speed effects time and mass. Because it affects space time!

Falling beyond the Schwarzschild Radius will effectively mean that time stands still. The closer you come to the singularity the slower time passes for you relative to everyone else. I'm not a theoretical physicist, so perhaps look it up online. :smallsmile:

Point is, that when empty space itself (the very fabric of the universe) moves greater than the speed of light nothing can escape...

[Deophaun]

A sphere of annihilation only directly effects it's area where a black hole is going to end everything even remotely close to it even if it only has the mass of an american nickel.
Such a tiny black hole will end things very differently: a sphere of annihilation will... annihilate whatever comes into contact with it. Your nickel-mass black hole, on the other hand, will destroy everything in a massive release of Hawking radiation, which would probably be akin to a matter/anti-matter explosion of equal mass.

Needless to say, small black holes are about as far from permanent as you can get.

Edit: And, if we're talking gravitational effects, the nickle-mass blackhole would have to be touching an object to really affect it. After all, it only has the mass of a nickel; at an inch away it will pull on you exactly as a nickel would.

[Âmesang]

If you have a source of gravity and no vacuum, could you use a pair of ring gates, one atop the other, and drop something through the bottom gate, have it come out the top back into the bottom, creating an endless loop until terminal velocity kicks in (with no atmospheric friction to get in the way)?

[lord_khaine]

Edit: And, if we're talking gravitational effects, the nickle-mass blackhole would have to be touching an object to really affect it. After all, it only has the mass of a nickel; at an inch away it will pull on you exactly as a nickel would.

As i understand its all black holes that only got the pull of their actual mass. That means that the nickle black hole is perfectly harmless, or at least as harmless as a nickle.

It also means you need an absurd high degree of material for any meaningful black hole, and i honestly dont think you can create one with less than epic magic.

[Tainted_Scholar]

It also means you need an absurd high degree of material for any meaningful black hole, and i honestly dont think you can create one with less than epic magic.

Apparently you could do it with the Chicken Infested Commoner.:smallbiggrin:

[Melcar]

As i understand its all black holes that only got the pull of their actual mass. That means that the nickle black hole is perfectly harmless, or at least as harmless as a nickle.

It also means you need an absurd high degree of material for any meaningful black hole, and i honestly dont think you can create one with less than epic magic.

Yes and no. Its true that the Schwarzschild Radius or Event Horizon would be minuscule, but the power is inherently the same beyond it. So yes its more dangerous the bigger they gets, because more mass equals greater Schwarzschild Radius, and longer duration = more havoc. But inside its equally dangerous. The math is the same. Beyond this line the nuclear forces that holds together mass in atoms and matter breaks up... essentially.

I'm no so well versed in Hawking Radiation, so I don't know what the decay/half-time effect is, but AFAIR, its the most energetic matter discovered, equal to matter and anti-matter colliding. So when you get this is massive proportions like that of a million suns, you have cataclysmic destruction on a cosmic level. Well on a multiple solar system scale. There is math for this, but I don't know it.

[Deophaun]

As i understand its all black holes that only got the pull of their actual mass. That means that the nickle black hole is perfectly harmless, or at least as harmless as a nickle.
Not entirely true. Gravity is a function of mass and distance. While that black hole only has the mass of a nickle, because it is condensed into a singularity, it's possible to get much, much, much, much closer to its center of mass. If you could somehow keep it from evaporating instantaneously, it would be able to suck in the atoms and molecules in its immediate (really immediate: at the nanoscale) proximity.

[ryu]

Not entirely true. Gravity is a function of mass and distance. While that black hole only has the mass of a nickle, because it is condensed into a singularity, it's possible to get much, much, much, much closer to its center of mass. If you could somehow keep it from evaporating instantaneously, it would be able to suck in the atoms and molecules in its immediate (really immediate: at the nanoscale) proximity.

Not to mention the previously mentioned hawking radiation bomb of death stronger than any nuke we've made. Seriously. I was well aware of this if you'd all just watch that brief thing I linked early on...

[Tainted_Scholar]

Not to mention the previously mentioned hawking radiation bomb of death stronger than any nuke we've made.

There are far easier ways to create a large explosion that don't require Black Holes though.

[ryu]

There are far easier ways to create a large explosion that don't require Black Holes though.

I'm not talking about that because it's the most efficient way to make such an explosion. I'm talking about it because it's more or less the least harmful inevitable result of this. That's what happens if you make one of the smallest black holes imaginable. If you go bigger it actually gets WORSE.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I'm not talking about that because it's the most efficient way to make such an explosion. I'm talking about it because it's more or less the least harmful inevitable result of this. That's what happens if you make one of the smallest black holes imaginable. If you go bigger it actually gets WORSE.

I'm well aware of what happens when you create a black hole. But earth is blocking my view of Venus so...:belkar:

[Deophaun]

Seriously. I was well aware of this if you'd all just watch that brief thing I linked early on...
Gomen. External links thwart my ctrl-f-fu.

Earth-Moon-Black Hole of Death-System is Best System.

[ryu]

Gomen. External links thwart my ctrl-f-fu.

Earth-Moon-Black Hole of Death-System is Best System.

It happens. Apology accepted.

[nyjastul69]

*Warning- Dungeons and Dragons Wiki*

Just use this (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Singularity_(3.5e_Spell)).

[Tainted_Scholar]

*Warning- Dungeons and Dragons Wiki*

Just use this (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Singularity_(3.5e_Spell)).

I'd prefer to not us homebrew. Plus I can't destroy planets with that.:smallfrown:

[Inevitability]

I'd prefer to not us homebrew. Plus I can't destroy planets with that.:smallfrown:

There's other ways for that. Is doing so with singularities a must?

[Manyasone]

Why, actually do you need to destroy a planet? And is your DM ok with it?
Just curious.

[LordOfCain]

Why, actually do you need to destroy a planet? And is your DM ok with it?
Just curious.
I'm well aware of what happens when you create a black hole. But earth is blocking my view of Venus so...:belkar:I thought that was pretty clear...

[Melcar]

I'd prefer to not us homebrew. Plus I can't destroy planets with that.:smallfrown:

Lets say you wanted to end the horrible campaign world of the DM by creating a black hole, or a magical effect similar to the effect of a black hole, I would say, again that you have to ude homebrew. As in you have to use the epic spell rules or some homebrew rules that can simulate the effects of super high powered spells... Perhaps level 10, 11 or 12 true dweomers. To the best of my knowledge there is nothing within the rules of D&D 3.X which in anyway resembles what you want to do. There are however the epic spell system, which is inherently homebrew in that all spells need research as in design from players (and DM). This goes aswell for the Elven High Magic system.

So I would conclude that you have to design som form of epic spell, either from the "normal" ELH rules or via the Elven High Magic system, which although uses the same rules is somewhat different. Both set of rules let you design what ever spell effect you want (at DM's discression) and through that system you would be able to create several different effects that could destroy the game world!

[lord_khaine]

I'm not talking about that because it's the most efficient way to make such an explosion. I'm talking about it because it's more or less the least harmful inevitable result of this. That's what happens if you make one of the smallest black holes imaginable. If you go bigger it actually gets WORSE.

Not what i heard in regard to the hystery with the new particle accelerator they build a little while ago. The explanation there were that tiny black holes are harmless. Mostly due to them not having any more mass than their components.


Lets say you wanted to end the horrible campaign world of the DM by creating a black hole, or a magical effect similar to the effect of a black hole, I would say, again that you have to ude homebrew. As in you have to use the epic spell rules or some homebrew rules that can simulate the effects of super high powered spells... Perhaps level 10, 11 or 12 true dweomers. To the best of my knowledge there is nothing within the rules of D&D 3.X which in anyway resembles what you want to do. There are however the epic spell system, which is inherently homebrew in that all spells need research as in design from players (and DM). This goes aswell for the Elven High Magic system.

Kinda sucky that you den need GM's permission for creating the spells that would end his world :P

[Coidzor]

Couple of orders of magnitude between individual particles and things with the mass or volume of an object we can interact with without tools, so that may have something to do with it.

[Deophaun]

Not what i heard in regard to the hystery with the new particle accelerator they build a little while ago. The explanation there were that tiny black holes are harmless. Mostly due to them not having any more mass than their components.
The tiny black holes they can create are actually beyond tiny. They're the mass of maybe a helium atom, not a nickel. That will still all get turned into energy, but it won't be out of line from what the LHC regularly experiences. So yeah, harmless.

[ryu]

Couple of orders of magnitude between individual particles and things with the mass or volume of an object we can interact with without tools, so that may have something to do with it.

You are in fact correct sir. A nickel has significantly more than one atom in it. In fact I'd go so far as to state that a couple orders of magnitude is a vast, and I do mean vast, understatement.

[Stealth Marmot]

You are in fact correct sir. A nickel has significantly more than one atom in it.

Yeah, it has to have like, 5 or 6 at least.

[ShurikVch]

If you can't create a Black Hole, then how about to just gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) it in?

[Tainted_Scholar]

If you can't create a Black Hole, then how about to just gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) it in?

You can gate in objects?

[ShurikVch]

You can gate in objects?Animated Black Hole is a Construct

[Jay R]

If you are a player, I'd start by asking the DM if a black hole is even possible. [It wouldn't be, in my world.]

He will probably then say some version of one of the following:

"Your character has never heard of a Black Hole."
"How many ranks of Knowledge (Relativistic Physics) do you have? You need at least 50, and you can't get any until you find somebody who can teach it."
"By the time you are high enough level to destroy planets, you'll be able to do it more easily with magic."

[Tainted_Scholar]

Animated Black Hole is a Construct

That would be the greatest thing ever.

[Stealth Marmot]

Animated Black Hole is a Construct

A manufactured, soulless creation whose sole function is infinitely sucking?

Guess that explains Nickelback.

[Inevitability]

A singularity occupies no space, right? How does that work with Minor Servitor, which grants the animated object one HD for each cubic foot of space it occupies?

[Tainted_Scholar]

Could I Wish for a black hole?

[Stealth Marmot]

Could I Wish for a black hole?

And we have reached a whole new level of "Be careful what you wish for."

[Inevitability]

Could I Wish for a black hole?

If the street value's below 25000 GP, sure.

Alternatively, wish for a +1 black hole. Suddenly, the item's original value doesn't matter anymore.

[Tainted_Scholar]

And we have reached a whole new level of "Be careful what you wish for."

Well, It's a safe effect of Wish.


If the street value's below 25000 GP, sure.

What's the general consensus on wishing for things without listed prices?

[Stealth Marmot]

If the street value's below 25000 GP, sure.

Alternatively, wish for a +1 black hole. Suddenly, the item's original value doesn't matter anymore.

Yes it does. The +1 bonus adds on to the ORIGINAL price, just not on top of the masterwork cost. A +1 dagger costs 2,001 gp.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Yes it does. The +1 bonus adds on to the ORIGINAL price, just not on top of the masterwork cost. A +1 dagger costs 2,001 gp.

A RAW Wish can create any magic item no matter the price. The gp limit only applies to nonmagic items.

[Stealth Marmot]

A RAW Wish can create any magic item no matter the price. The gp limit only applies to nonmagic items.

*Reads it again*

..okay ironically the writers of the wish spell made it pretty poorly worded.

[Jay R]

Could I Wish for a black hole?

Only if your character (not you) knows what a black hole is. Unless 20th-21st century physics is a common field of study in that world, no, you can't.

[Stealth Marmot]

Only if your character (not you) knows what a black hole is. Unless 20th-21st century physics is a common field of study in that world, no, you can't.

Well they could wish for a portable hole and remember the name wrong.

That's how I imagine most D&D worlds end I'll bet.

[Deophaun]

Only if your character (not you) knows what a black hole is. Unless 20th-21st century physics is a common field of study in that world, no, you can't.
That's what contact other plane is for. As black hole is a single open compound word, it is an appropriate answer when you ask "What object can destroy the world?"

[Tainted_Scholar]

Only if your character (not you) knows what a black hole is. Unless 20th-21st century physics is a common field of study in that world, no, you can't.

I've probably learned about them if I'm a space faring mage.

EDIT; Also backstory shenanigans can give that info.

[Inevitability]

That's what contact other plane is for. As black hole is a single open compound word, it is an appropriate answer when you ask "What object can destroy the world?"

"What object I can call to my location with a Gate spell can destroy the world within X time without immediately destroying me as well, provided I prepare for said object's arrival to the best of my ability?" ought to cover all the bases.

[Jay R]

"What object I can call to my location with a Gate spell can destroy the world within X time without immediately destroying me as well, provided I prepare for said object's arrival to the best of my ability?" ought to cover all the bases.

In my universe, you would get the answer, "You cannot create an Epic level effect with a 9th level spell." The same logic that applies to restricting Wish spells would apply here.

Which reminds me, I have two questions for the OP.

1. Aesthetically, why do you want to use a science/SF effect in an explicitly magic game? This feels to me like wanting to use a revolver in a caveman game, a GPS in a Musketeers game, or a Kryptonian character in D&D.

2. What purpose does the black hole have other than destroying all fun for the DM and the other players?

[Tainted_Scholar]

In my universe, you would get the answer, "You cannot create an Epic level effect with a 9th level spell." The same logic that applies to restricting Wish spells would apply here.


Spells of lower level often produce more powerful effects than higher level spells. Also the majority of epic spells in the ELH are far weaker than non-epic spells. The system is about as unbalanced as... a really unbalanced thing.


1. Aesthetically, why do you want to use a science/SF effect in an explicitly magic game? This feels to me like wanting to use a revolver in a caveman game, a GPS in a Musketeers game, or a Kryptonian character in D&D.

Summoning a Black Hole is no more Sci-fi than calling down a meteor, or teleporting to another star system. Plus, unlike the subjects of your analogies, a black hole is a completely natural occurrence that almost certainly exists in the D&D Prime Material.


2. What purpose does the black hole have other than destroying all fun for the DM and the other players?
As of current I'm just curious how to create a Black Hole. However I can think of numerous instances when I might need to create a Black Hole. When creating setting I generally prefer to stick to the rules as closely as possible, so if I had a mage in the past who created a Black Hole I would want an explanation for how they accomplished it. Or I could be writing a story where casters frequently demonstrate this sort of power. Lastly, I might was playing some sort of space faring campaign like Star Wars in D&D, and the destruction of star systems was the power level the game operated at.

[Deophaun]

Aesthetically, why do you want to use a science/SF effect in an explicitly magic game?
Fire is a science effect. As is acid. As is electricity. And it's not like there aren't magic effects that explicitly mess with gravity already.

You're creating a distinction that does not exist. Besides, Lina Inverse says you're wrong (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Osphyp1G25o), and she's a sorcery genius. (Sorry in advance: If anyone knows dispel Lisa Ortiz, please cast it)

[Jay R]

Fire is a science effect. As is acid. As is electricity. And it's not like there aren't magic effects that explicitly mess with gravity already.

You're creating a distinction that does not exist.

Fire, acid, and lightning exist in fantasy stories, and in medieval stories with swords and armor. Black holes do not. This is a real distinction, not one I've made up.

[Inevitability]

Fire, acid, and lightning exist in fantasy stories, and in medieval stories with swords and armor. Black holes do not. This is a real distinction, not one I've made up.

It depends on your definition of 'fantasy'. Kill Six Billion Demons (http://killsixbilliondemons.com/) is fantasy IMO, but black holes are canon there (as are guns, stargates, and the fabric of spacetime).

What I'm trying to say: 'X is not fantasy' is not an argument, because 'fantasy' is not clearly defined.

Also, the material plane is explicitly said to have the same natural laws as our world for the most part. The creation of black holes should be possible there.

[ShurikVch]

Fire, acid, and lightning exist in fantasy stories, and in medieval stories with swords and armor. Black holes do not. This is a real distinction, not one I've made up.Consuming Vortex of Traal (Dungeon Master's Guide II) described as "magical black hole which affects only the living".
Thus we can say Black Hole in D&D is a "non-magical Consuming Vortex of Traal which affects not only the living".

[Deophaun]

Fire, acid, and lightning exist in fantasy stories, and in medieval stories with swords and armor. Black holes do not. This is a real distinction, not one I've made up.
He says, excluding the part of the post that explicitly shows a black hole in a medieval story with swords and armor.

[Tainted_Scholar]

He says, excluding the part of the post that explicitly shows a black hole in a medieval story with swords and armor.

D&D isn't a medieval setting though, what with the killer planetoids and time traveling squid people and literal star ships (Neogi).

EDIT; Quoted the wrong person. :smallsigh:

[Zombimode]

Honest answer: the actual method how you try to create a black hole is completely meaningless as there is no written way to do so. "Black hole" is not a game concept and thus no mechanics relate to it. The ONLY thing that actually matters is your GM. If your GM is cool with the idea you will find a way that works for both of you. If your GM doesn't like the idea, you are best serve to drop it since there is nothing in 3.5 for you to point at.

[Manyasone]

He says, excluding the part of the post that explicitly shows a black hole in a medieval story with swords and armor.

Hmmm, I am curious as to the source of that particular story

[Tainted_Scholar]

Honest answer: the actual method how you try to create a black hole is completely meaningless as there is no written way to do so. "Black hole" is not a game concept and thus no mechanics relate to it. The ONLY thing that actually matters is your GM. If your GM is cool with the idea you will find a way that works for both of you. If your GM doesn't like the idea, you are best serve to drop it since there is nothing in 3.5 for you to point at.

Technically I can't polymorph into a chicken either because they have no stat block.

[Deophaun]

Hmmm, I am curious as to the source of that particular story
The Slayers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slayers)

It's a pseudo-parody of western fantasy in that the plot and villains are deadly serious but the main heroine... well... in some places, it's illegal to be her. As a pre-Cowboy Bebop era anime licensed by Central Park Media and slated to air on Fox Kids, the dub is absolutely hopeless.

[Âmesang]

Only if your character (not you) knows what a black hole is. Unless 20th-21st century physics is a common field of study in that world, no, you can't.
"And we are told that the stars without number that we see in the heavens, each one the progeny, the inhabitants of heaven, will in their turn populate the heavens, to time without end. So the story goes than when a sun or star dies, it goes forth in a piercing flash of light after compressing upon itself until it can press no more, and flies apart in a myriad of particles, each part finding itself a space wherein it can gather from the heavenly soil nourishment for its growth, and in due course make itself a world as our lord Shamesh has done."


— from one having responsibility in the Sar-Ma'an Brotherhood to the Prince of the Land of the Four Directions at the Royal School of Ugarit, being an aspirant to the brotherhood
The Phoenician Letters by G. Zur and Wilfred Davies

EDIT: Also, do similar cosmic events ever occur in SPELLJAMMER®?

[TheOneWhoThinks]

I'm trying to figure out how to create a permanent black hole with magic.

Polymorph Any Object came to mind, but I couldn't figure out how to make it permanent.

Bard of creation level 14+ create a mass of lead/metal/whatever so dense that it creates the desired gravitational anomaly, best done inside a wall of force, for the sake of not destroying the world as we know it.
Methods of disposal: True polymorph it into a 0 cr rabbit and plane shift/bag of devouring, then it is someone else’s problem, or True polymorph it into a will-o-wisp or shadow, and put it into a bag of holding for later use

[Saintheart]

{Scrubbed}

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread Necromancy