Cross-class skills?

[D&DPrinceTandem]

I expect this thread to be realitivly short,

How does Cross-Class skills work, it seems kind of left field for me, for an example use:
truenamer / fighter

As always thanks in advance.

[Tiri]

Cross class skills give you 1/2 a rank for every skill point you invest in them.

1/2 ranks do nothing.

The limit for the number of ranks you can have in a cross-class skill is 1/2(character level + 3), rounded down, unless you have another class which has that skill as a class skill, in which case it has the same rank limit as a class skill.

For example, a level 1 Fighter taking a level in Truenamer would be able to have 5 ranks in Climb, Climb being a Fighter class skill, but each Truenamer skill point he put into that skill would only get him 1/2 a rank.

He could also put cross-class points into Spellcraft, but could only gain a maximum of 2 ranks in that skill, as neither of his classes has it as a class skill.

[legomaster00156]

As a personal preference, I like Pathfinder's way of handling class skills. You have a flat maximum of (1 x HD) ranks in each skill, and every rank invested gives +1 to a skill regardless of whether it's on one of your class skill lists. When you invest at least 1 rank into a class skill, you get an additional +3 to the skill.

[Lokiron]

Cross class skills give you 1/2 a rank for every skill point you invest in them.

1/2 ranks do nothing.

The limit for the number of ranks you can have in a cross-class skill is 1/2(character level + 3), rounded down.

1/2 rank allows you to make trained only skill checks with a bonus of +0 (from ranks).

Also, the formula actually does not need rounding, as you can have half ranks. They just do nothing, except allowing trained only checks.

[Tiri]

Also, the formula actually does not need rounding, as you can have half ranks. They just do nothing, except allowing trained only checks.

Right. Clearly my memory is not as good as I thought it was. Thanks for clarifying.

[Khedrac]

1/2 rank allows you to make trained only skill checks with a bonus of +0 (from ranks).

Also, the formula actually does not need rounding, as you can have half ranks. They just do nothing, except allowing trained only checks.
Yes, that's what we play too. However, it is not actually RAW:

Trained Only
If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it. If it is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with a rank of 0). If any special notes apply to trained or untrained use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below).
The requirement of at least 1 rank means that having half a rank does not enable one to count as trained and make checks.

The possible exception to this is Knowledge skills:

Untrained
An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).
The question is does the phrase "actual training" corresponding to be trained as defined for "Trained Only" skills?
If the DM says it does then you need a full rank. If the DM says it does not then you just need the half rank.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

ok all good so far

what about a wilder1 / warlock4 and concentration 8

[Sliver]

If a skill is on at least one of the class skill lists of your classes, the max ranks are at HD+3. Even if you take a class that doesn't have the skill on the list, that's the max rank, though you will need to pay 2 skill points to get 1 rank.

Concentration is a class skill for both wilders and warlocks though, so there's no issue there. At level 5, your maximum is 8, and multiclassing doesn't change anything in that regard.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

If a skill is on at least one of the class skill lists of your classes, the max ranks are at HD+3. Even if you take a class that doesn't have the skill on the list, that's the max rank, though you will need to pay 2 skill points to get 1 rank.

Concentration is a class skill for both wilders and warlocks though, so there's no issue there. At level 5, your maximum is 8, and multiclassing doesn't change anything in that regard.

Thank you, i just wanted to know if i was understanding correctly

[Zaq]

Basically, for max ranks, you need to look at your entire build (up to the level in question). For cost at each level, you look ONLY at the level in question.

If a skill has ever been a class skill for ANY of your classes, your max ranks are your HD + 3. If a skill has NEVER been a class skill for any of your classes, your max ranks are half of that, so (your HD + 3)/2.

When you level up (whether that's at the table or while building a character above level 1), you look at the class you're taking at the current level. That class determines your base skill points at that level, and then of course you get extra skill points from INT (and from being a human or a similar race, if appropriate). For any skill you want to put ranks into RIGHT NOW (meaning at this specific level up), if the skill is a class skill for the class you just leveled, you spend points on a one-to-one basis (spend 1 point, get 1 rank), and if the skill isn't a class skill for the class you just leveled, you spend points on a two-to-one basis (spend 1 point, get 1/2 ranks; spend 2 points, get 1 rank). How many ranks can you have? That depends on if the skill has ever been a class skill, as I said above.

It's finicky, of course. No one's going to argue against that. It's not actually that hard overall (unless, say, you're juggling an Iron Chef build with five different classes where you're building all 20 levels at once and you need to make sure that you stay legal the entire time with no feedback on the spot), but it does definitely take a bit of work if you're doing anything unusual.

One trick I sometimes do is to get a piece of paper (or two) and mark out areas representing the total skills I plan to have by the time I'm done. (If necessary/appropriate, I mark which of my classes each skill is a class skill for.) I then get some kind of physical counters or tokens, give myself the appropriate amount for each individual level, and place the tokens in the appropriate areas. So let's say at 2nd level I gain a level in Barbarian and have a total of 6 skill points because of INT and stuff, so I'll give myself 6 tokens and place them in the appropriate areas. If I place a token in a Barbarian skill, I just pay one, and if I place a token in a non-Barbarian skill, I use a different color of token to indicate that it's only a half rank, even though I spent a whole token. Then at 3rd level I gain a level of Ranger and have 8 skill points to spend, so after I've spent all my Barbarian tokens and, if necessary, jotted down the totals, I give myself 8 tokens, each of which counts for full if I put it in a Ranger skill and for half if I put it in a non-Ranger skill.

The paper-and-tokens trick isn't doing anything different than you'd do normally, but it's a way to keep things straight in your head if your build gets complex (such as by having lots of different classes with different skills and different base skill points at each level). It's also nice because I can reassign tokens if I decide midway through that I want to change my skill priorities, though of course you have to be careful that you don't mess something up in the middle.

[Lokiron]

Yes, that's what we play too. However, it is not actually RAW:

The requirement of at least 1 rank means that having half a rank does not enable one to count as trained and make checks.


This is a shock to me. This actually means that the jack of all trades feat from complete adventurer does... nothing?

[Zaq]

This is a shock to me. This actually means that the jack of all trades feat from complete adventurer does... nothing?

Yes and no. 1/2 a rank doesn't let you use trained skills untrained, but the feat contains a sentence that explicitly states that "this benefit allows you to attempt checks with skills that don't normally allow untrained skill checks," and specific beats general. The feat specifically allows you to try checks without full skill ranks, so the general rule that 1/2 a rank doesn't let you use certain skills doesn't apply.

[Lokiron]

Yes and no. 1/2 a rank doesn't let you use trained skills untrained, but the feat contains a sentence that explicitly states that "this benefit allows you to attempt checks with skills that don't normally allow untrained skill checks," and specific beats general. The feat specifically allows you to try checks without full skill ranks, so the general rule that 1/2 a rank doesn't let you use certain skills doesn't apply.

The fact that the feat mentions 1/2 rank seems weird.. Like that's the foundation of allowing trained only checks..

[zergling.exe]

The fact that the feat mentions 1/2 rank seems weird.. Like that's the foundation of allowing trained only checks..

I believe cross class vs class skills are to blame for this. Since cross class skills make 1 skill point = 1/2 rank, people assumed that a 1/2 rank allowed for 'trained only' as you do have training in it. However, whoever wrote the 'trained only' part seemingly did it thinking about class skills, where 1 skill point = 1 rank (which when new to the system is easier to grasp). The discrepancy, along with likely reading the 'trained only' part when you are new and not returning to it (or in many cases, no one in the group has read it, taking the word of previous, more experienced players), causes many to believe that a 1/2 rank is the requirement, since that is the minimum amount of training you can put into a skill.