Hybridization

[Arkhios]

Gestalt character builds come and go all the time in the forums, but honestly, being able to have all of the abilities of two classes at once seem awfully broken to me. The best alternative I can think of are Hybrid classes, which were introduced in 4th edition D&D (probably one of the best additions in that edition, and that's saying a lot!) as far as I know. While what I'm presenting below isn't 1-to-1 accurate with the Hybrids of 4th edition, the concept relies on that idea. Also, when looking at Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight, they seem already as kind of hybrid character archetypes, in which the "secondary class" (Wizard) progresses at a pace of 1/3 of your "primary class" level, compared to the parent classes (Rogue and Fighter, respectively). When I realized this, I came to wonder what if this design philosophy could be expanded to cover more class combinations in a "hybrid" way, where the parent (or primary) class would progress normally, while the secondary class would progress at the aforementioned pace of 1/3 of your level at the cost of trading your sub-class features for secondary class features.

Instead of choosing a sub-class for your Primary Class, you can choose to have a Secondary Class and take its base class features in place of the sub-class features you would normally get.
You can take one feature from the Secondary Class at each level you would gain a sub-class feature, at a 1-for-1 ratio, but you must choose them in order from 1st Secondary Class level and forward. At any consecutive level you can choose to take a feature from a previous level instead of a feature from the current level, and you can't choose to take a feature from a level beyond the level you haven't taken at least one feature already.

For example, you can't choose to skip a level in order to gain a feature at a later level. But, for example, if the current level doesn't have a feature you could take, you can take a feature you haven't taken yet from a previous level.
As with multiclassing, hybridization has certain restrictions:

Prerequisites. In order to take a Secondary Class, you must meet the multiclassing requirements for both the Primary and the Secondary Class.

For example, as a Cleric, you must have at least Strength 13, Wisdom 13, and Charisma 13 to take Paladin as your Secondary Class.

Ability Score Improvements. Ability Score Improvements at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 19 are tied to your Primary Class level, and you can't take an Ability Score Improvement as a Secondary Class feature from those Secondary Class levels.

Channel Divinity. If you would gain Channel Divinity from your Secondary Class, you use the Spellcasting DC for your Primary Class to determine the DC for your Channel Divinity. If your Primary Class doesn't have a Spellcasting feature, you follow the rules of the Secondary Class for that feature.

Extra Attack. You can only benefit from this class feature once and you do so as your primary class dictates. If you would get Extra Attack from a Secondary Class and you don't have it from your Primary Class, you get the feature as a bonus at 6th level in your Primary Class.

Unarmored Defense. You can gain this feature only once, and the first time you gain the feature determines how you calculate your unarmored Armor Class.

Spellcasting. You can only get either Spellcasting or Pact Magic from Primary and Secondary classes combined (you can't have both). Unless your Primary Class has either Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature, the Secondary Class determines the details for that feature. If your Primary Class has Spellcasting or Pact Magic class feature, your Primary Class determines the details instead.
Secondary Class features that rely on spell slots. Unless you have spell slots from either your Primary or Secondary Class, you can't take a class feature that relies on having spell slots (such as Divine Smite).

Effective Level. The effective level of your Secondary Class is equal to 1/3 of your Primary Class level (rounded up) for the purpose of class features that improve depending on your class level (such as Extra Attack, Spellcasting, and Sneak Attack).

Note: Extra Attack feature from a Fighter improves at 11th Fighter level, and again at 20th Fighter level, but since your effective Fighter level would be up to 7 at 19th level, as a Secondary Class feature you can only get one additional attack from the feature.

Sub-classes. Generally, you can't take Secondary Class features from a sub-class. However, if you took Ranger as your Secondary Class, you can choose to take the 3rd level Sub-class feature from a chosen Ranger Conclave. That feature otherwise follows the rules for Hybridization as normal.

Multiclassing. You are forbidden to multiclass with your Secondary Class. Optional: Unless your DM forbids it, you can multiclass with any other classes.

[Giant2005]

The game isn't really set up in a way that would let a system like that work without throwing balance out the window.
Some classes (like the Ranger) get most of their combat abilities from their subclass while other classes (Paladin, Fighter) get most of their combat abilities from their primary class.
As long as that remains true, then you wouldn't be able to make a system like this as then one class would be able to snag the combat abilities of two classes without any combat-related opportunity cost.

[djreynolds]

I like this, this reminds me of 2E.

Now you can just make the character you want.

I might allow though, ASI at the 4,8,12,16,19 levels.

But very cool. You want the monks 14th level ability, but on the full plate fighter chassis

[Arkhios]

The game isn't really set up in a way that would let a system like that work without throwing balance out the window.
Some classes (like the Ranger) get most of their combat abilities from their subclass while other classes (Paladin, Fighter) get most of their combat abilities from their primary class.
As long as that remains true, then you wouldn't be able to make a system like this as then one class would be able to snag the combat abilities of two classes without any combat-related opportunity cost.

I suppose you're right. It is a fun idea to experiment with, though. Plenty of room to improve and balance it, I'd guess.


I like this, this reminds me of 2E.

Now you can just make the character you want.

I might allow though, ASI at the 4,8,12,16,19 levels.

But very cool. You want the monks 14th level ability, but on the full plate fighter chassis

With additional ASI I meant the ones you could get from fighter or rogue, in theory. Although, the sub-class levels would run out before that becomes relevant, so I guess it's a moot point.

Glad you liked it though.

PS. Actually, you wouldn't be able to get the Monk's 14th level ability if your primary class is a Fighter, as you start with 1st level monk features at 3rd fighter level, 2nd level monk features at 7th fighter level, and so on.

[Giant2005]

I suppose you're right. It is a fun idea to experiment with, though. Plenty of room to improve and balance it, I'd guess.

I think the Ranger is really the only class that gets most of its combat power from the subclass, so just banning it should go a long way to making things work. Other than it, the only class who's subclasses add anything of significant worth for combat is the Fighter. I just don't think the Fighter adds too much to worry about (it would be power creep, but not at an obnoxious level).

[djreynolds]

I suppose you're right. It is a fun idea to experiment with, though. Plenty of room to improve and balance it, I'd guess.



With additional ASI I meant the ones you could get from fighter or rogue, in theory. Although, the sub-class levels would run out before that becomes relevant, so I guess it's a moot point.

Glad you liked it though.

PS. Actually, you wouldn't be able to get the Monk's 14th level ability if your primary class is a Fighter, as you start with 1st level monk features at 3rd fighter level, and progress level by level from there.

Its still cool, I'm sure this is what Mr. Crawford did dreaming up this game with Mr. Mearles.

Check out the 2E books there was an idea like this before. A paladin could give up this or that to obtain weapon specialization.

I mean a paladin may want to give immunity to fear and charm for the critical hits of the champion, and the champion may want the reverse.

I like 5E because really now, aside from archery, any class can be a weapon master for a least one attack. Unlike 3.5, where even our mothers had 4 levels of fighter.

I want my players when they show up to play the character they want to.

[Sirdar]

Very interesting! This could actually be a nice way to build your character if you don't think you will play more than one or two D&D 5e characters in your life - and have a hard time choosing what to play. But it would require expertise in game mechanics to avoid a very unbalanced party. Multiclassing is nice, but the option to 'remove' a subclass feature you don't care for and get a class feature from your secondary class is absolutely awesome. If you want to make really strong characters for some epic campaign - why not?

The natural forum question is: What is the most broken character you can build in this way?

Personally - I would probably always choose fighter as secondary class for that sweet, sweet Action Surge! :smallwink:

[Arkhios]

Very interesting! This could actually be a nice way to build your character if you don't think you will play more than one or two D&D 5e characters in your life - and have a hard time choosing what to play. But it would require expertise in game mechanics to avoid a very unbalanced party. Multiclassing is nice, but the option to 'remove' a subclass feature you don't care for and get a class feature from your secondary class is absolutely awesome. If you want to make really strong characters for some epic campaign - why not?

The natural forum question is: What is the most broken character you can build in this way?

Personally - I would probably always choose fighter as secondary class for that sweet, sweet Action Surge! :smallwink:

I would say to The Question that "Go nuts, Giants! Let's see what you've got!"

Edit1: One possibility for a character concept a hybridization would make possible is a Primary Druid with Cleric Secondary. Relatively weak wild shape but in return you'd get Channel Divinity to Turn Undead at 6th level as if you were a 2nd level cleric (Cleric level = 1/3 druid level), and get up to 6th effective cleric level, with the ability to use Channel Divinity twice per short rest at 18th druid level.

Edit2: Made a minor (yet huge) change in the OP: If you chose to take a secondary class instead of a sub-class you must take all features from secondary class at your sub-class levels accordingly. The intention was not to allow cherry-picking a feature or two, but instead commit to the secondary class entirely instead of a sub-class.

Edit3:

I think the Ranger is really the only class that gets most of its combat power from the subclass, so just banning it should go a long way to making things work. Other than it, the only class who's subclasses add anything of significant worth for combat is the Fighter. I just don't think the Fighter adds too much to worry about (it would be power creep, but not at an obnoxious level).

I just realized that currently the hybrid Channel Divinity is rather weak, as the only other way of getting other channel divinites than Turn and Destroy Undead are via Divine Domain (the sub-class for Cleric) and Sacred Oath (the sub-class for paladin), both of which wouldn't be available at all if you chose not to advance in the sub-classes.

Maybe there should be a way to implement a one-time sub-class feature from the secondary class, to make it feasible - even for a Ranger.

[Giant2005]

How would you handle things like Spellcasting and a Fighter's Extra Attack?
Would you split those abilities up into multiple parts (which would make this entire process a lot more labor intensive), or just give it to them as is?
A couple of examples of what I mean:
Could a Rogue take Wizard as his subclass to get full spellcasting progression?
Could a Warlock take Fighter as his subclass to get 2, 3, and 4 attacks per turn just from the one ability (and become super powerful in the process due to damage enhancements like Hex and Lifedrinker)?

Also, how exactly would abilities stack? The multiclassing rules would handle most things fairly well, but even using those rules you could end up with a Sorcerer that took Bard as his subclass, that would effectively have twice the caster level of an ordinary full caster.

[Arkhios]

How would you handle things like Spellcasting and a Fighter's Extra Attack?
Would you split those abilities up into multiple parts (which would make this entire process a lot more labor intensive), or just give it to them as is?
A couple of examples of what I mean:


Could a Rogue take Wizard as his subclass to get full spellcasting progression? Initially I was thinking that a secondary spellcasting class would only grant cantrips, but you have a point I missed in the thought process. A wizard doesn't have much anything else than his spells and sub-class, so I guess a Rogue with Wizard as a Secondary Class would essentially progress as an Arcane Trickster does, with the exception of not having as limited spell selection as an Arcane Trickster would have. His effective Wizard level would be 1/3 of his Rogue level (rounded up), starting from 3rd rogue level (exactly how Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight does progress in power, actually).

Could a Warlock take Fighter as his subclass to get 2, 3, and 4 attacks per turn just from the one ability (and become super powerful in the process due to damage enhancements like Hex and Lifedrinker)? As I already mentioned, if you have Extra Attack from your Primary Class, you don't get any more Extra Attacks from Fighter as your Secondary Class. Also, if you don't have Extra Attack from Primary Class, you only get a single Extra Attack from the Secondary Class, if that class has the feature. So, the answer to Primary Warlock, Secondary Fighter would be: up to 2 attacks per turn.

Also, how exactly would abilities stack? The multiclassing rules would handle most things fairly well, but even using those rules you could end up with a Sorcerer that took Bard as his subclass, that would effectively have twice the caster level of an ordinary full caster. Spellcasting would only apply once per character if both the Primary and Secondary classes have the Spellcasting class feature, and the primary class would determine the spellcasting ability modifier and spellcasting foci etc. Likewise you would only get spells from one class, not both. A Primary Sorcerer, Secondary Bard would have Sorcerer spells only, with the non-spellcasting features from Bard, while a Primary bard, Secondary Sorcerer would have Bard spells only, with the non-spellcasting features from Sorcerer.

Likewise, a Primary Fighter, Secondary Warlock could only get up to 7th level warlock spells and spell slots, due to how 1/3-level progression seems to work in spellcasting, sans multiclassing: Up to 2 x 4th level spell slots per short rest at 17th Fighter level.

In the case of a fullcaster taking a half-caster as a secondary class, I think it would be best to have the spellcasting progress as it already does. Meaning, if a Sorcerer took paladin as a secondary class, his spellcasting progress would continue as a sorcerer, with sorcerer spells only.
If a Paladin took sorcerer as a secondary class, his spellcasting progress would continue as a paladin, with paladin spells only.

Does this make sense to you?

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think this would become super messy with multiclassing (e.g I dip Cleric 1 "Rogue Domain" for cleric features and expertice, then Warlock 1 "Fighter pact" for warlock stuff and a fighting style). Especially since hybridization fills the same role, I'd just completely ban multiclassing hybrid classes.

I think monks probably gain too much from this. A monklock would get repelling eldritch spear at level 6, right? Or low level druid spellcasting and wild shape (v. Human mobile monk goat w/longstrider laughs at the concept of melee range, while shillelaghin' away the rest of the day). Also warlocks (sorcerer for blast locks, paladins for blade locks). I think this is fair for most classes, because most classes pretty well balance core and sub class abilities, but for monk and warlock, the core is really where it's all at.

[Arkhios]

I think this would become super messy with multiclassing (e.g I dip Cleric 1 "Rogue Domain" for cleric features and expertice, then Warlock 1 "Fighter pact" for warlock stuff and a fighting style). Especially since hybridization fills the same role, I'd just completely ban multiclassing hybrid classes.

I'll leave that to each individual DM to decide, but I do agree. Hybrid characters shouldn't be able to multiclass with each other, maybe not at all, because it can become, as you said, quite messy.


I think monks probably gain too much from this. A monklock would get repelling eldritch spear at level 6, right? Or low level druid spellcasting and wild shape (v. Human mobile monk goat w/longstrider laughs at the concept of melee range, while shillelaghin' away the rest of the day). Also warlocks (sorcerer for blast locks, paladins for blade locks). I think this is fair for most classes, because most classes pretty well balance core and sub class abilities, but for monk and warlock, the core is really where it's all at.

Yes, that's right. A monklock would get Eldritch Invocations at 6th level as if he was a 2nd level Warlock. Would you prefer if even hybrids would have to meet the multiclassing requirements statwise? Would the fear of MADness balance it at any rate?

[Joe the Rat]

To shift the frame, you are creating subclass options based on other classes. It's like Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, Arcana Cleric, Valor bard, and FE Monk (and Favored Soul and Theurge), only using 2nd class base features as the subclass features rather than a set of "inspired by" features.

I would argue that to stay true to this concept, you should disregard subclass* and focus on the primary class abilities only. So no Fiend Barbarians, no Life Druids, no Swashbuckler Fighters, no Oathbreaker Bards from this. (You also need to decide if Warlock Pacts are another subclass or a base class feature). Hot-swap of subclasses (see Theurge) is a different approach.

I am inclined to add the multiclassing req's for the secondary class, but I am one who is inclined towards restriction.

* - Ranger, again, is an issue. This might be a case where you either select a subclass to add to the ranger features, or instead just use the archetypes as your pool



Could a Warlock take Fighter as his subclass to get 2, 3, and 4 attacks per turn just from the one ability (and become super powerful in the process due to damage enhancements like Hex and Lifedrinker)? As I already mentioned, if you have Extra Attack from your Primary Class, you don't get any more Extra Attacks from Fighter as your Secondary Class. Also, if you don't have Extra Attack from Primary Class, you only get a single Extra Attack from the Secondary Class, if that class has the feature. So, the answer to Primary Warlock, Secondary Fighter (or vice versa, although that wasn't the question) would be: up to 2 attacks per turn.

So if you have extra attack, you can't get more from fighter, and if you don't have extra attack, you can't get more than one from fighter? Why not just say "Fighter secondary doesn't grant Extra Attack (2) or Extra Attack (3)?"

[Arkhios]

1)To shift the frame, you are creating subclass options based on other classes. It's like Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, Arcana Cleric, Valor bard, and FE Monk (and Favored Soul and Theurge), only using 2nd class base features as the subclass features rather than a set of "inspired by" features.

2) I would argue that to stay true to this concept, you should disregard subclass* and focus on the primary class abilities only. So no Fiend Barbarians, no Life Druids, no Swashbuckler Fighters, no Oathbreaker Bards from this. (2.1)You also need to decide if Warlock Pacts are another subclass or a base class feature). Hot-swap of subclasses (see Theurge) is a different approach.

3) I am inclined to add the multiclassing req's for the secondary class, but I am one who is inclined towards restriction.

* - 2.2) Ranger, again, is an issue. This might be a case where you either select a subclass to add to the ranger features, or instead just use the archetypes as your pool




4) So if you have extra attack, you can't get more from fighter, and if you don't have extra attack, you can't get more than one from fighter? Why not just say "Fighter secondary doesn't grant Extra Attack (2) or Extra Attack (3)?"

1) I suppose you could see it that way. The core intent is to cover all that with rules that would be more or less equal to all classes.

2) Ah, but you are absolutely right. The one example about Life Druid was a brainfart from my part. I did intend to disregard sub-class and focus on the primary class abilities only.
2.1) Yes, warlock is a bit difficult in that regard. On the one hand I think Otherwordly Patron is more or less a must-have defining feature for a warlock, but on the other hand, it would break the design philosophy by allowing both a sub-class and a secondary class for warlocks. I'm inclined towards leaving Otherwordly Patron mostly as a ribbon, or at most allowing warlocks to expand their spell list, and have Pact Boon remain a base class feature.
2.2) I think it might be necessary to make a special case out of ranger, and let them choose from conclave in addition to their base class features.

3) I have no problem with adding the multiclassing requirements for hybrids; in fact I do think they are necessary for game balance.

4) I'm not sure if that is better way to say it or not. But, essentially yes. A primary fighter would get all extra attacks as is, but a secondary fighter would only get one.


One possibility could be making predetermined list of secondary class features for every class individually, if people would prefer that instead.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I'll leave that to each individual DM to decide, but I do agree. Hybrid characters shouldn't be able to multiclass with each other, maybe not at all, because it can become, as you said, quite messy.



Yes, that's right. A monklock would get Eldritch Invocations at 6th level as if he was a 2nd level Warlock. Would you prefer if even hybrids would have to meet the multiclassing requirements statwise? Would the fear of MADness balance it at any rate?

Adding the multiclassing requirements seems like a good idea generally, but it doesn't help with druid monks, sorclocs, or waradins.

I think possibly the best bet, if I were putting this in a book to be published, is to just make 2e style lists of valid hybrid classes and their pre-reqs.

[Arkhios]

Adding the multiclassing requirements seems like a good idea generally, but it doesn't help with druid monks, sorclocs, or waradins.

I think possibly the best bet, if I were putting this in a book to be published, is to just make 2e style lists of valid hybrid classes and their pre-reqs.

I'm not familiar with, and don't have the 2e books. Would you be so kind and provide me a list of sorts which classes would be valid combinations? I like the idea in general. :)

[MinotaurWarrior]

I'm not familiar with, and don't have the 2e books. Would you be so kind and provide me a list of sorts which classes would be valid combinations? I like the idea in general. :)

Well, I wouldn't use the actual lists from 2e, since 2e only had multiclasses for like half of the PHB classes (Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Druid, iirc).

In 5e I'd probably say:

All martials can hybridize one another.

Monks cannot hybridize with casters.

Sorcerers and Warlocks cannot hybridize with paladins or other full casters

Druids / Wizards / Clerics can hybridize with anyone not excluded by previous rules.


So, Barbarian (Path of the Fighter)? Cool. Monk (way of the Barbarian)? OK. Wizard (school of cleric)? That works. Sorcerer (Ranger origin)? Fine. But no monklocks, sorcadins, or Clerlocks.

[Arkhios]

All martials can hybridize one another.
I take that includes Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and Rogues, but what about Monks?


Monks cannot hybridize with casters.
I get the sentiment to not allow full casters and warlocks, but what of the martial half-casters above?


Sorcerers and Warlocks cannot hybridize with paladins or other full casters.
Noted.


Druids / Wizards / Clerics can hybridize with anyone not excluded by previous rules.
How about bards? I would think that a Barbarian (Bard) or Bard (Barbarian) would be very thematic, even though you couldn't rage and cast simultaneously.

[Sigreid]

Just a quick glance at this, I think a fighter-wizard would make a much better EK than an EK would. Not over blown, just many more spell options at the cost of topping out at 1 lower spell level.

Just an at a glace.

[Arkhios]

Just a quick glance at this, I think a fighter-wizard would make a much better EK than an EK would. Not over blown, just many more spell options at the cost of topping out at 1 lower spell level.

Just an at a glace.

Don't know how did you come up with 1 lower spell level, because an EK is exactly 1/3 (rounded up) caster while single classed (multiclassing a 1/3 caster gets wonky, as it does with 1/2 caster), just as the spellcasting progresses for these in the case of a full-caster as secondary. Sure enough, a hybrid fighter-wizard would get more spells, but that's about it.

To prove this, let's take a look at 7th, 13th, and 19th levels, which are the levels when AT or EK increase their spellcasting level:
7:3=2 1/3 -> rounded up to 3, which means 2nd-level spells (same as AT or EK)
13:3=4 1/3 -> rounded up to 5, which means 3rd-level spells (still same as AT or EK)
19:3=6 1/3 -> rounded up to 7, which means 4th-level spells (again, same as AT or EK)

[Sigreid]

Don't know how did you come up with 1 lower spell level, because an EK is exactly 1/3 (rounded up) caster while single classed (multiclassing a 1/3 caster gets wonky, as it does with 1/2 caster), just as the spellcasting progresses for these in the case of a full-caster as secondary. Sure enough, a hybrid fighter-wizard would get more spells, but that's about it.

To prove this, let's take a look at 7th, 13th, and 19th levels, which are the levels when AT or EK increase their spellcasting level:
7:3=2 1/3 -> rounded up to 3, which means 2nd-level spells (same as AT or EK)
13:3=4 1/3 -> rounded up to 5, which means 3rd-level spells (still same as AT or EK)
19:3=6 1/3 -> rounded up to 7, which means 4th-level spells (again, same as AT or EK)

I got it as 5 levels of class features would give the spellcasting of up to 3rd level spells. EK tops out at 7. But perhaps I'm missing something.

[Arkhios]

I got it as 5 levels of class features would give the spellcasting of up to 3rd level spells. EK tops out at 7. But perhaps I'm missing something.

Secondary class features have a 1/3 progression of the primary class levels.

So, if your primary class level is 7, and you had secondary class features at 3rd and 7th level, those secondary class features would count as if your level in the secondary class was 1/3 of 7 (2 and 1/3, which gets rounded up to 3); if your secondary class was a full caster, you'd get 2nd level spells.

[Sigreid]

Secondary class features have a 1/3 progression of the primary class levels.

So, if your primary class level is 7, and you had secondary class features at 3rd and 7th level, those secondary class features would count as if your level in the secondary class was 1/3 of 7 (2 and 1/3, which gets rounded up to 3); if your secondary class was a full caster, you'd get 2nd level spells.

Gotcha. That works.

[Arkhios]

I have made a few major changes to the original post in an effort to clarify certain features a bit further, such as Spellcasting, Extra Attack, and the Effective Level for the Secondary Class.

In addition, I'm trying to put up a list of valid hybrid combinations. I tried to make them thematically appropriate for each individual combination, and here's what I've got so far. In the case of Barbarian/Caster hybrids, since rage doesn't work with spellcasting I would say it's reasonable to not being able to gain those features via hybridization.:

Bard: Str 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Performance); Can't take Spellcasting
Fighter: Str 13; Proficiency (Athletics and Intimidation)
Monk: Str 13, Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Insight)
Paladin: Str 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Persuasion); Can't take Spellcasting
Ranger: Str 13, Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Animal Handling); Can't take Spellcasting
Rogue: Str 13, Dex 13; Proficiency (Stealth)


Barbarian: Str 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Intimidation); Can't take Rage
Cleric: Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Religion)
Druid: Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Nature)
Fighter: Str or Dex 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Intimidation)
Paladin: Str 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Persuasion)
Ranger: Dex 13, Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Animal Handling)
Rogue: Dex 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Stealth)
Wizard: Int 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Arcana)


Barbarian: Str 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Intimidation); Can't take Rage
Bard: Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Performance)
Druid: Wis 13; Proficiency (Nature and Herbalism kit)
Fighter: Str or Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Intimidation)
Paladin: Str 13, Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Persuasion)
Ranger: Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Animal Handling)
Rogue: Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Stealth)
Wizard: Int 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Arcana)


Barbarian: Str 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Intimidation); Can't take Rage
Bard: Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Performance)
Cleric: Wis 13; Proficiency (Religion and Herbalism kit)
Fighter: Str or Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Intimidation)
Paladin: Str 13, Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Persuasion)
Ranger: Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Animal Handling)
Rogue: Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Stealth)
Wizard: Int 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Arcana)


Barbarian: Str 13; Proficiency (Athletics and Intimidation)
Bard: Str or Dex 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Performance)
Cleric: Str or Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Religion)
Druid: Str or Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Nature)
Monk: Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Insight)
Paladin: Str 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Persuasion)
Ranger: Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Animal Handling)
Rogue: Dex 13; Proficiency (Acrobatics and Stealth)
Sorcerer: Str or Dex 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (History)
Warlock: Str or Dex 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Deception)
Wizard: Str or Dex 13, Int 13; Proficiency (Arcana)

[JackPhoenix]

I have made a few major changes to the original post in an effort to clarify certain features a bit further, such as Spellcasting, Extra Attack, and the Effective Level for the Secondary Class.

In addition, I'm trying to put up a list of valid hybrid combinations. I tried to make them thematically appropriate for each individual combination, and here's what I've got so far. In the case of Barbarian/Caster hybrids, since rage doesn't work with spellcasting I would say it's reasonable to not being able to gain those features via hybridization.:

Bard: Str 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Performance); Can't take Spellcasting
Fighter: Str 13; Proficiency (Athletics and Intimidation)
Monk: Str 13, Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Insight)
Paladin: Str 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Persuasion); Can't take Spellcasting
Ranger: Str 13, Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Animal Handling); Can't take Spellcasting
Rogue: Str 13, Dex 13; Proficiency (Stealth)


Barbarian: Str 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Intimidation); Can't take Rage
Cleric: Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Religion)
Druid: Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Nature)
Fighter: Str or Dex 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Intimidation)
Paladin: Str 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Persuasion)
Ranger: Dex 13, Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Animal Handling)
Rogue: Dex 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Stealth)
Wizard: Int 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Arcana)


Barbarian: Str 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Intimidation); Can't take Rage
Bard: Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Performance)
Druid: Wis 13; Proficiency (Nature and Herbalism kit)
Fighter: Str or Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Intimidation)
Paladin: Str 13, Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Persuasion)
Ranger: Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Animal Handling)
Rogue: Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Stealth)
Wizard: Int 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Arcana)


Barbarian: Str 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Intimidation); Can't take Rage
Bard: Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Performance)
Cleric: Wis 13; Proficiency (Religion and Herbalism kit)
Fighter: Str or Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Intimidation)
Paladin: Str 13, Wis 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Persuasion)
Ranger: Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Animal Handling)
Rogue: Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Stealth)
Wizard: Int 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Arcana)


Barbarian: Str 13; Proficiency (Athletics and Intimidation)
Bard: Str or Dex 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Performance)
Cleric: Str or Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Religion)
Druid: Str or Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Nature)
Monk: Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Insight)
Paladin: Str 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Persuasion)
Ranger: Dex 13, Wis 13; Proficiency (Animal Handling)
Rogue: Dex 13; Proficiency (Acrobatics and Stealth)
Sorcerer: Str or Dex 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (History)
Warlock: Str or Dex 13, Cha 13; Proficiency (Deception)
Wizard: Str or Dex 13, Int 13; Proficiency (Arcana)


Why required skill proficiencies? It limits the possible character options. Barbarian/rogue works as a thug, why would he need to be proficient with Stealth? And barbarian doesn't rage all the time, why can't he cast spells in the meantime? Normal multiclassed barbarians do, totem barbarian has his rituals...

Why must bard/fighter be intimidating? Sounds like military commander type character to me, or well, how is it any different from valor bard in concept?

Etc, etc...

[Arkhios]

Why required skill proficiencies? It limits the possible character options. Barbarian/rogue works as a thug, why would he need to be proficient with Stealth? And barbarian doesn't rage all the time, why can't he cast spells in the meantime? Normal multiclassed barbarians do, totem barbarian has his rituals...

Why must bard/fighter be intimidating? Sounds like military commander type character to me, or well, how is it any different from valor bard in concept?

Etc, etc...

I thought that since hybridization might feel a bit strong option it could come with a "price", with that price being a skill that would be thematically appropriate. Those were really just suggestions and a fighter requirement could just as well be athletics, but I figured that a bard/fighter would be kind of a drill sergeant type of character, or even a warlord who would give strict orders instead of asking politely.

Rogue/barbarian could require intimidation instead. Again just a suggestion.

Not being able to gain spellcasting or rage with barbarian/caster pairings was more like a synergistic deal, since you'd technically advance as a single classed character, only with abilities from another class. To me it made some sense that these secondary class features would need to have synergy with your primary abilities; spellcasting and rage have none.

[MrStabby]

A few things here by way of questions. What about things that scale with level.

If you take monk as a subclass of a warlock say then you get patron spells and a patron ability at level 1. This gets you unarmoured defence and martial arts at level 1 as well? When you get your next patron ability and would get your Ki ability - how many Ki points do you get?

Likewise if you had rogue as your subclass would you gain sneak attack that did nothing as you have no rogue levels or would you have sneak attack that scaled with your main class level.

Depending on how these things are answered there could be some broken combinations out there - warlock sorcerer who can pick up metamagic without slowing progression.

How about domain spells? If I have a druid with a cleric subclass at what level do I get the domain spells?

Between things like arcane/natural recovery, abjuration wizard ward, spell slots and so on there are a lot of these.


So most broken thing on a liberal interpretation of the rules: Sorcerer with subclass warlock to pick up warlock casting and get LOADS more spell slots. Or Warlock picking sorcerer to get "free" metamagic".

[Arkhios]

A few things here by way of questions. What about things that scale with level.

If you take monk as a subclass of a warlock say then you get patron spells and a patron ability at level 1. This gets you unarmoured defence and martial arts at level 1 as well? When you get your next patron ability and would get your Ki ability - how many Ki points do you get?

Likewise if you had rogue as your subclass would you gain sneak attack that did nothing as you have no rogue levels or would you have sneak attack that scaled with your main class level.
These were addressed in the original post, actually. You replace your subclass features with those of a secondary class. This would include all Patron abilities except for the expanded spell list, and well, the patron would remain mostly for flavor only.
Also, your effective level in the secondary class is equal to 1/3 of your main class level (rounded up), so for a warlock with monk as secondary, your monk features would scale depending on your effective monk level. At 6th warlock level you would count as a 2nd level monk for both martial arts and ki.

Likewise with rogue subclass your sneak attack would function at your effective rogue level, as if you had a rogue level equal to 1/3 of your warlock level (rounded up), which would mean at 1st warlock level you would count as a first level rogue for sneak attack (1d6), at 7th warlock level you would count as a 3rd level rogue for sneak attack (2d6), at 13th level as a 5th level rogue for sneak attack (3d6), and finally at 19th level as a 7th level rogue for sneak attack (4d6).


Depending on how these things are answered there could be some broken combinations out there - warlock sorcerer who can pick up metamagic without slowing progression.
This was mentioned before and I was convinced that hybridization should be limited to only valid class combinations and a warlock/sorcerer isn't one of them - for reasons you obviously realize yourself. In fact, a monk should probably not be able to hybridize with full casters either. That includes warlocks.


How about domain spells? If I have a druid with a cleric subclass at what level do I get the domain spells?
You don't. Divine Domain is the cleric's subclass, and the hybridization specifically replaces all subclass features, and since domain spells are technically one subclass feature gained at 1st cleric level, you replace it with secondary class feature. The warlock with its access to additional spells instead of knowing them all automatically is an exception to the general rule.


Between things like arcane/natural recovery, abjuration wizard ward, spell slots and so on there are a lot of these.
Good thing that you mentioned it, I hadn't thought of the arcane/natural recovery. Definitely you'd get a spell slot recovery feature only once, and it would follow the rules for it as normal, or if it came from a secondary class, it would depend on your effective level in that class. So, for example, as a paladin with theoretical druid subclass at 7th level when you would get Natural recovery instead of an aura, your effective druid level would be rounded up to 3rd.
Regarding abjurer's ward, that's not a problem since you can't be both an abjurer and a secondary druid. Abjurer is a subclass for wizard.


So most broken thing on a liberal interpretation of the rules: Sorcerer with subclass warlock to pick up warlock casting and get LOADS more spell slots. Or Warlock picking sorcerer to get "free" metamagic".
Even if the above combination was allowed, you wouldn't be able to choose another casting feature; you could only have one or the other. If your main class is sorcerer, your spellcasting follows sorcerer spellcasting rules. If your main class was warlock, you would only gain pact magic and follow the rules for that.



I came to think that maybe I could separate the list of spells as its own class feature, as an optional rule to those classes which would gain the subclass at the same level when they learn spellcasting.

This could open up some interesting combinations, such as sorcerer drawing spells from bard, cleric, or druid lists instead of sorcerer, for example.

Or a warlock with all the warlock abilities but with druid's spell list: a witch, maybe?

(Although I admit it might be too powerful in some cases).

[Herobizkit]

I know that the Pathfinder people experimented with Hybrid classes on their side of things - maybe take a peek over there? :)

[Grod_The_Giant]

I like the idea, but I think the generalized rules are too messy and open to abuse... Instead, I suggest writing eleven generic subclasses, one for each class. That way you can make sure you're getting level-appropriate abilities and all of the right flavor.

[Arkhios]

I know that the Pathfinder people experimented with Hybrid classes on their side of things - maybe take a peek over there? :)

Yeah, I'm aware of those. I played Pathfinder until they released Unchained rules. Would've played after that too, but real life time issues came along. By the time I could've returned I didn't feel like it and 5th edition had already taken a hold of me :)

Anyway, pathfinder hybrid classes are a bit too extensive in that they are completely new full classes only based upon combinations of previously core classes. Now, I could take those as a guideline as to which classes could be hybridized but OTOH that might not be enough.


I like the idea, but I think the generalized rules are too messy and open to abuse... Instead, I suggest writing eleven generic subclasses, one for each class. That way you can make sure you're getting level-appropriate abilities and all of the right flavor.

I had thought of that, and I believe it might be the way to go too. Less work than completely new classes as suggested(?) above, but at least I could, in theory, make certain that some of the more broken combo's were taken care of immediately.

I could probably take inspiration from pathfinder's variant multiclassing (introduced in the Unchained rules), which is oddly enough very similar to the idea. I may have subconsciously taken some ideas from there already, but honestly I had forgotten them until Herobizkit mentioned pathfinder :)

[Arkhios]

Okay, let's see how do you guys like this, before I add or change the relevant parts in the Original Post:

Thanks to Grod's suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=21425481#post21425481) I made some research and concluded that each class has on average 5 sub-class features, and therefore I came up with a list of "Hybrid Sub-classes" for each eleven twelve classes in Player's Handbook.

Have a look and let me know what you think of them!

When you gain your sub-class, you can choose to replace all of your sub-class features (excluding additional spells) with the hybrid class features listed under each class below. You can learn up to first two features at your first sub-class level, but otherwise the features are divided among the levels you would normally gain your sub-class features. This can mean that for some classes the last hybrid class feature is unavailable.
You must meet the Minimum Requirements for both your Primary class and the Hybrid Class.

Barbarian (Minimum Strength 13):

Rage (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Danger Sense
Reckless Attack
Fast Movement
Feral Instinct

Special: Extra Attack*

Bard (Minimum Charisma 13):

Spellcasting* (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Bardic Inspiration (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Jack of All Trades
Song of Rest (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Countercharm


Cleric (Minimum Wisdom 13):

Spellcasting* (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Channel Divinity (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Destroy Undead (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Divine Strike (+1d8 radiant to one weapon or spell damage roll/turn)
Divine Intervention (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))


Druid (Minimum Wisdom 13):

Spellcasting* (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Wild Shape (1 use/long rest. Max. CR 1/4; No Flying or swimming speed)
Wild Shape Improvement (Max. CR 1/2; No flying speed)
Wild Shape Improvement (Max. CR 1; No Limitations)
Wild Shape (2 uses/long rest)


Fighter (Minimum Strength or Dexterity 13):

Second Wind (1/long rest; 1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Fighting Style
Action Surge (1/long rest)
Ability Score Improvement
Indomitable (1/long rest)

Special: Extra Attack*

Monk (Minimum Dexterity 13 and Wisdom 13):

Martial Arts (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Ki (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Deflect Missiles (1/3 of Primary Clas level (rounded up))
Slow Fall (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Ki Empowered Strikes

Special: Extra Attack*

Paladin (Minimum Strength 13 and Charisma 13):

Lay on Hands (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Fighting Style
Divine Health
Aura of Protection
Aura of Courage

Special: Extra Attack*

Ranger (Minimum Dexterity 13 and Wisdom 13):

Favored Enemy (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Fighting Style
Natural Explorer
Primeval Awareness
Hide in Plain Sight

Special: Extra Attack*

Rogue (Minimum Dexterity 13):

Sneak Attack (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Cunning Action
Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
Reliable Talent


Sorcerer (Minimum Charisma 13):

Spellcasting* (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Font of Magic (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Metamagic (1)
Metamagic (2)
Metamagic (3)


Warlock (Minimum Charisma 13):

Pact Magic* (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Eldritch Invocations (1; 1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Eldritch Invocations (2)
Eldritch Invocations (3)
Eldritch Invocations (4)


Wizard (Minimum Intelligence 13)

Spellcasting* (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Arcane Recovery (1/3 of Primary Class level (rounded up))
Extra Cantrip (+1)
Extra Cantrip (+2)
Extra Cantrip (+3)


If you have either Pact Magic or Spellcasting class feature, instead of gaining this feature you know one additional spell from the secondary class spell list for each spell level you can cast. Once chosen, these spells can't be changed.
If your Primary Class doesn't have Extra Attack but the Hybrid Class would normally have it, you can choose to trade your 6th level sub-class feature for Extra Attack.

[Cybren]

The game isn't really set up in a way that would let a system like that work without throwing balance out the window.
Some classes (like the Ranger) get most of their combat abilities from their subclass while other classes (Paladin, Fighter) get most of their combat abilities from their primary class.
As long as that remains true, then you wouldn't be able to make a system like this as then one class would be able to snag the combat abilities of two classes without any combat-related opportunity cost.

Balance isn't and shouldn't be the only arbiter of a mechanics worth.