Holy word: is this spell useless?

[dehro]

If I understand it correctly, the spell is completely ineffective against anything that is at least a level higher than the casting character... So if I am playing a campaign where most opponents are big tough guys on account of how our party includes 5-7 characters, there's probably no point at all in picking this spell
Am I correct?

Does anyone ever encounter an opponent that is lower level than the party members?

[GilesTheCleric]

That's true if you're not using CL boosters. I think most applications of the spell here on the boards assume that players are using circle magic, reserves of strength, consumptive field, or any other of the various means of buffing themselves before casting it. Vanilla, it's just as you say -- not a very good pick, since an equal-level solo BBEG isn't a challenge against a party.

[Ashtagon]

Some spells are anti bbeg spells. Some are anti mook spells . Guess which one holy word is.

Mook in this context is relative to caster level not an absolute value.

[dehro]

Agreed
Side question, how do you boost your casting level past your hit dice without adding inordinate amounts of cheese? Is that doable?

[JeminiZero]

1. Start with Caster level of X (where X is at least 13 to cast Holy Word).
2. At the start of the day, cast and Trigger Adept Spirit [MoI] to gain +1 to CL for 1 minute (total CL 14)
3. Trigger a Karma Bead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) to get another +4 CL (total CL 18)
4. Trigger an Ankh of Ascension [MiC] to get another +4 CL (total CL 22)
5. Cast DMM Persist Consumptive Field, which will provide 22/2 = +11 CL bonus for the rest of the day (as well as a hefty strength bonus).
6. Cast Adept Spirit again, ready for the next encounter.
7. At the appropriate encounter, trigger Adept Spirit (swift action, +1 CL), Trigger Ankh of Ascension (free action, +4 CL), stack on Consumptive Field (precast, +11 CL), for a CL 29 Blasphemy/Dictum/Word of Chaos/Holy Word. At level 13.

For every 2 levels you go up, this combo goes up by +3 CL, because consumptive field gives a +50% CL boost.

[Echch]

While this doesn't work for Holy Word, for all other spells of that line, if you actually build for it, you can even go Red Wizard, loose out on a Caster Level for Wyrm Wizard to gain Consumptive Field access, grab Arcane Disciple for the Domain the features the spell and you'll be casting at CL 60.

[Crake]

Let's not forget people, that holy word affects all nongood, so it will equally kill neutral people.


1. Start with Caster level of X (where X is at least 13 to cast Holy Word).
2. At the start of the day, cast and Trigger Adept Spirit [MoI] to gain +1 to CL for 1 minute (total CL 14)
3. Trigger a Karma Bead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) to get another +4 CL (total CL 18)
4. Trigger an Ankh of Ascension [MiC] to get another +4 CL (total CL 22)
5. Cast DMM Persist Consumptive Field, which will provide 22/2 = +11 CL bonus for the rest of the day (as well as a hefty strength bonus).
6. Cast Adept Spirit again, ready for the next encounter.
7. At the appropriate encounter, trigger Adept Spirit (swift action, +1 CL), Trigger Ankh of Ascension (free action, +4 CL), stack on Consumptive Field (precast, +11 CL), for a CL 29 Blasphemy/Dictum/Word of Chaos/Holy Word. At level 13.

For every 2 levels you go up, this combo goes up by +3 CL, because consumptive field gives a +50% CL boost.

Explain to me how you're casting a good spell and an evil spell as a cleric? Unless you and your god are both neutral, this is not possible, and if you are neutral and casting holy word, you'll be killing yourself as well. This trick works fine for blasphemy of course, or even dictum or word of chaos, but not holy word.

[Echch]

Let's not forget people, that holy word affects all nongood, so it will equally kill neutral people.



Explain to me how you're casting a good spell and an evil spell as a cleric? Unless you and your god are both neutral, this is not possible, and if you are neutral and casting holy word, you'll be killing yourself as well. This trick works fine for blasphemy of course, or even dictum or word of chaos, but not holy word.

Maybe he's playing a Favored Soul/Sacred Exorcist?

[Calthropstu]

Even vanilla, without boosting caster level at all, it is insanely useful against a horde. For example, air walk into the middle of an enemy formation and cast this, You just eliminated about 60 enemy soldiers and cleared a 40 radius spread in the middle of an enemy formation... which say... a fighter polymorphed into a 10 headed hydra could pop into and begin utter devastation.

In a 1v1 fight, Jemini's trick is the way to go.

[JeminiZero]

Explain to me how you're casting a good spell and an evil spell as a cleric? Unless you and your god are both neutral, this is not possible
Well, you've just answered your own question. Also note that Ur-Priests does not have restrictions on spells with alignments.


and if you are neutral and casting holy word, you'll be killing yourself as well. This trick works fine for blasphemy of course, or even dictum or word of chaos, but not holy word.
You can protect yourself from your own Holy Word with Greater Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunityGreater.htm), since it allows for SR.

[ace rooster]

Two things worth mentioning

First has already been mentioned, but is worth repeating. Holy word is not a single target nuke. It is ineffective if you try to use it as one. If you only face encounters which involve a single target, you are correct in it being bad. This is doubled up by the fact that single target encounters against a party of 6 are difficult to make challenging, so this monster has to be even more powerful than standard.

Second is that outsiders typically have low HD for their CR. When you get holy word you are level 13, so lets look at a CR 13 demon; A Galbrezu. This only has 12HD, so will be blinded with no save. It might also be banished, but this is less reliable. Against outsiders this spell is monumentally powerful, even without CL boosters.

[Eldariel]

Holy Word is the very opposite of useless. It's a no-save "be hurting" or with sufficient caster level, "be dead". The whole spell line borderlines broken-beyond-repair - boosting caster level is easy. Even just in Core, you can easily rock around Beads of Karma, Orange Prism Ioun Stone and perhaps eventually a level of Hierophant for the extra spell power. You can get to +5-+6 caster level with just those items which is enough to blind and deafen most things and anything of equal level is paralyzed for minutes. Then of course, you can wipe out arrays of mooks with it. Add any more sources and the caster levels shoot through the roof.

Overall, Caster Level is way easier to buff than HD making the whole line a very-difficult-to-stop means of offense. Spell Resistance and Antimagic are the only easy answers that don't depend on spell-specific defenses, and Spell Resistance is rarely reliable since even if you use the spell which gives you caster level-based SR, enemy can always just use Assay Resistance, try to Dispel your SR or whatever. And since they're Caster Level buffing anyways, no amount of native SR is likely to accomplish much.

[dehro]

Well.. I'm playing a favored soul/ordained champion.. who starts out with rather low stats, but comes out of the gate at a total level of 19.
Your suggestions are intriguing... But DMM and persist combo has been outlawed.
I'm putting together a spell list focusing on healing and self buffing for melee... I'm not the primary melee character but will never be much of an offensive caster, but I am still looking for a couple of offensive spells to give a little versatility beyond healing.
I'm thinking FS 15/OC 4

Feat and spell selection are proving challenging, also because I need to make up for sub par stats rolling

[Eldariel]

Well.. I'm playing a favored soul/ordained champion.. who starts out with rather low stats, but comes out of the gate at a total level of 19.
Your suggestions are intriguing... But DMM and persist combo has been outlawed.
I'm putting together a spell list focusing on healing and self buffing for melee... I'm not the primary melee character but will never be much of an offensive caster, but I am still looking for a couple of offensive spells to give a little versatility beyond healing.
I'm thinking FS 15/OC 4

Feat and spell selection are proving challenging, also because I need to make up for sub par stats rolling

You can always DMM: Quicken stuff if Persist is a no-go. Certainly always useful. Also, Practiced Spellcaster is pretty key caster level-wise if you plan to use stuff like Holy Word. Ultimately, there are lots of caster level enhancing things (Have a Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444635-Raising-Caster-Level)) so you can certainly make use of the spell should you so desire. Far as stats go, you can always use Polymorph-spells to replace your physicals while fighting (or permanently, if you pick up Polymorph Any Object from e.g. Trickery domain). This allows you to make do with significantly lower stats, really only needing Wis and Con. And you can always buff your effective health with magic.

[JeminiZero]

If you are a Favored Soul, then make sure you grab Versatile Spellcaster [Races of Dragon]. The feat lets you burn 2 level 9 spells to cast a level 10 spell. That lets you persist 4th levels spells normally on a level 10 slot, including Divine Power and Consumptive Field.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Three words: Divine Spell Power.

Blow turn attempts to jack your CL up. Now it's a no save, just die spell. And it's not a death effect, despite the effect being 'die', so things immune to death effects are not immune to it.

Not just that, it's an area effect no-save-just-die-kkthxbai. Encounter? What encounter?

This is one of the single most abusable spells in the game.

[Psyren]

To give you an idea, Pathfinder whacked it with the nerfbat and it's still good.

Having said that, countering it is also easy. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm)

[dehro]

Three words: Divine Spell Power.

Blow turn attempts to jack your CL up. Now it's a no save, just die spell. And it's not a death effect, despite the effect being 'die', so things immune to death effects are not immune to it.

Not just that, it's an area effect no-save-just-die-kkthxbai. Encounter? What encounter?

This is one of the single most abusable spells in the game.
Favored souls don't have any turn attempts to burn.. And dipping to get them is a no go

[Eldariel]

Favored souls don't have any turn attempts to burn.. And dipping to get them is a no go

Even Sacred Exorcist?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Favored souls don't have any turn attempts to burn.. And dipping to get them is a no go

Take your pick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444635-Raising-Caster-Level).
Seriously, as others have said, raising CL is easy.

Also keep in mind that you don't need to get the kill effect to make the spell worth casting.
Deaf and blind enemies are already as good as dead in most cases, and it's also a very efficient Banishment with no HD limit.

[dehro]

Even Sacred Exorcist?

Afraid so. Also, it wouldn't fit the character very well

[dehro]

Amending my last post... I'm not allowed two prestige classes but can take two base classes.
How would it work if I were to throw in a level of cleric to gain undead turning and domains?
Would the levels of favored soul stack with the cleric?
Would I get the full domain spell lists?
Would turning somehow also be improved despite only having one level in cleric?
What happens when you combine a prepared caster with a spontaneous one? Do I have to pick my cleric first level spells and then add the favored soul ones?? How do I manage spell slots?
If ordained champion didn't shift spontaneous casting towards the war domain, would spontaneous healing be limited to the one cleric level I picked out would it also work on the levels of favored soul?
I'm confused.:smalleek:

[Troacctid]

How would it work if I were to throw in a level of cleric to gain undead turning and domains?
Then you might as well just be a cleric instead of a favored soul, honestly.


Would the levels of favored soul stack with the cleric?
No.


Would I get the full domain spell lists?
No.


Would turning somehow also be improved despite only having one level in cleric?
No.


What happens when you combine a prepared caster with a spontaneous one? Do I have to pick my cleric first level spells and then add the favored soul ones?? How do I manage spell slots?
The spell slots are separate for each class. You cannot use cleric slots to cast favored soul spells. You cannot prepare favored soul spells in cleric slots. You cannot use favored soul slots for spontaneous cure or inflict spells (unless you choose them as spells known).


If ordained champion didn't shift spontaneous casting towards the war domain, would spontaneous healing be limited to the one cleric level I picked out would it also work on the levels of favored soul?
It only modifies your spontaneous casting from cleric slots. You can still cast cure spells spontaneously from favored soul slots if you have them as spells known. You cannot spontaneously cast War domain spells from favored soul slots. You would not even add the War domain to your favored soul class spell list, because that only happens if you are not a cleric.

[Pex]

It depends on what the DM throws at you. Some DMs like to outnumber the party. That's when Holy Word is useful because they're usually of lower HD. Holy Word is also useful against summoned creatures. For one spell you save several rounds of wasteful energy of the party attacking the summoned blockers instead of the BBEG you really want.

Solo BBEG fights or BBEG with a partner by their nature are going to be creatures above your HD. That a spell is not of good use against them doesn't mean the spell is not of good use elsewhere.

[dehro]

You cannot spontaneously cast War domain spells from favored soul slots. You would not even add the War domain to your favored soul class spell list, because that only happens if you are not a cleric.

Not sure if I'm not understanding you correctly or if I have understood you but disagree/have not found this written anywhere
Doesn't that mean that the ordained champion, when paired with the favored soul is pointless to the point of being functionally incompatible??

[Troacctid]

If you are not a cleric, you add the War domain spells to your class spell list. A Favored Soul/Ordained Champion could therefore select those spells as spells known, even if they do not normally appear on the favored soul's class spell list. (This is relevant only for the power word spells, as all the others are on your list already.)

If you are a cleric, you instead gain the War domain as a third cleric domain, or, if you already have it, you gain an extra domain of your choice from among those offered by your deity. A Favored Soul/Cleric/Ordained Champion is a cleric, and so gains this benefit instead of the other one.

As for Modified Spontaneous Casting, the ability specifically allows you to swap out prepared cleric spells for War domain spells, so spell slots from another class will not work.

[Coidzor]

The Wish and the Word spring to mind.

Can't remember if you can make it a War spell and commit genocide with it, though.

[dehro]

If you are not a cleric, you add the War domain spells to your class spell list. A Favored Soul/Ordained Champion could therefore select those spells as spells known, even if they do not normally appear on the favored soul's class spell list. (This is relevant only for the power word spells, as all the others are on your list already.)

If you are a cleric, you instead gain the War domain as a third cleric domain, or, if you already have it, you gain an extra domain of your choice from among those offered by your deity. A Favored Soul/Cleric/Ordained Champion is a cleric, and so gains this benefit instead of the other one.

As for Modified Spontaneous Casting, the ability specifically allows you to swap out prepared cleric spells for War domain spells, so spell slots from another class will not work.

I see.. So I would gain the war domain, and power, but only be able to swap first level spell on account of only having first level prepared slot, all others being spontaneous? And I'd never get the words of power spells.

Also, you say allows... But the wording basically obliges this course of action on account of losing spontaneous healing for that one cleric level, correct? (I'd keep the spontaneous healing selecting healing spells for my favored soul levels)

I googled the wish and the word... Gave me a headache three lines in.

Edit. It doesn't oblige.. It gives me the option for that one level..

[Troacctid]

I see.. So I would gain the war domain but only be able to swap first level spell on account of only having first level prepared slot, all others being spontaneous?
Yes. Also, regardless of spontaneous vs. prepared, it only works for cleric spells; a cleric/druid could not sacrifice druid spells to the ability, for example.


Also, you say allows... But the wording basically obliged this course of action on account of losing spontaneous healing for that one cleric level, correct? (I'd keep the spontaneous healing selecting healing spells for my favourite soul levels)
It allows you to do the thing, but in exchange for giving up the ability to do the other thing, yes.

[dehro]

Many thanks
Now I'll get busy with feat selection... Spells will mostly be the healing and pre-melee buffing, I reckon.