Buckling my swash most excellently

[lesbiasparrow]

Thanks to everyone for all your help on my earlier question! I ended up going Swashbuckler instead of Arcane Trickster (largely for OOC reasons, but I'm happy with the outcome). Now I'm trying to figure out what to do with him...

To recap: our party has a paladin (protection, I think oath of devotion), a monk (not sure which kind), a druid (again, not sure on circle), a draconic sorceror, a lore bard, an archer ranger, and a knowledge cleric. Plus me! I'm one of three melee characters. We just hit level 4.

I'm a half-elf. With standard array for stats, I'm sitting at STR 8, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, and CHA 14. I'm pretty sure I should put this ASI into +2 to Dex, since it improves basically everything about me, but I'm not sure from there.

My DM houseruled it as being okay for me to use a rapier and dagger instead of two shortswords for my dual-wielding, largely because I felt it was a lot more flavorful (and with the proviso that if I started taking extra attacks from another class or something we would revisit). I'm wondering, though, if I should take the Crossbow Expert feat and keep a hand crossbow in my off-hand instead of another melee weapon...

I might want to take a few levels of fighter for Battlemaster dice in a couple of levels, but I'm better off in light armor.

Thoughts?

[Edgerunner]

Dual Wielder-

Then you can go 2x Rapier and get a +1 AC.
Also Talk to your DM about giving him/her the Fighting Style TWF. Just seems to make sense for the Swash and you can add the +Dex to the 2nd hit as well.

[RulesJD]

Same thoughts as usual for my build of Swashbuckler that gets the rounds:

1. 1 Level of Draconic Sorc to pick up Draconic Resilience (+1 AC effectively), Booming Blade, and Shield spell.

2. 3 Levels of BM Fighter. Riposte, Precision, Pushing/Menacing. Use a Rapier + shield for more AC.

That's about it.

[lesbiasparrow]

Dual Wielder-

Then you can go 2x Rapier and get a +1 AC.
Also Talk to your DM about giving him/her the Fighting Style TWF. Just seems to make sense for the Swash and you can add the +Dex to the 2nd hit as well.

+2 dex right now already give me the +1 AC, though. I might consider TWF at some point if I take a fighter level, but I don't think it's appropriate for a plain ol' rogue.

[lesbiasparrow]

Same thoughts as usual for my build of Swashbuckler that gets the rounds:

1. 1 Level of Draconic Sorc to pick up Draconic Resilience (+1 AC effectively), Booming Blade, and Shield spell.

2. 3 Levels of BM Fighter. Riposte, Precision, Pushing/Menacing. Use a Rapier + shield for more AC.

That's about it.

What do you do with your bonus action if you're a swashbuckler with a shield?

[RulesJD]

What do you do with your bonus action if you're a swashbuckler with a shield?

Dash mostly. Swashbuckler + Booming Blade + movement = significantly stronger.

Also, Second Wind, Disengage if multiple enemies around, (eventually) Cantrip spell for Readied Action shenanigans, Hide if I already have the movement, etc.

[CaptainSarathai]

Same thoughts as usual for my build of Swashbuckler that gets the rounds:

1. 1 Level of Draconic Sorc to pick up Draconic Resilience (+1 AC effectively), Booming Blade, and Shield spell.

2. 3 Levels of BM Fighter. Riposte, Precision, Pushing/Menacing. Use a Rapier + shield for more AC.

That's about it.


What do you do with your bonus action if you're a swashbuckler with a shield?


Dash mostly. Swashbuckler + Booming Blade + movement = significantly stronger.

Also, Second Wind, Disengage if multiple enemies around, (eventually) Cantrip spell for Readied Action shenanigans, Hide if I already have the movement, etc.
I second this build. Dual-wielding as a Swashbuckler is the developer's emphasis; not ours.

Dual-wielding is still a pretty bad option, especially as Sneak Attack is limited to One/Turn. The best candidates for dual-wield are still
Fighter (2wf makes it passable)
Barbarian*
Paladin*
*PoleArm Master is still better for the extra OA trigger, but these classes are rewarded for more attacks in each turn. Barbarian gets Rage bonus to all damage and Reckless economy is stacked towards multiple attacks. Paladin uses extra attacks as extra chances to Smite, potentially on a Crit.

[Hudsonian]

+2 dex

adds to lock pick, acrobatics, the almighty Dex Save, sleight of hand, and AC. Nothing else does that.

And then at level 5 your prof bonus goes up and you are the lord of damage and skills. (And your dex save is that much more important)

[Biggstick]

Same thoughts as usual for my build of Swashbuckler that gets the rounds:

1. 1 Level of Draconic Sorc to pick up Draconic Resilience (+1 AC effectively), Booming Blade, and Shield spell.

2. 3 Levels of BM Fighter. Riposte, Precision, Pushing/Menacing. Use a Rapier + shield for more AC.

That's about it.

I absolutely agree with the level of Draconic Sorcerer. Getting that +1 Studded Leather (which is what the Draconic AC bonus equals out to), Booming Blade, and the Shield spell all for 1 level of investment is fantastic. You could even decide to go three levels for some metamagic. I particularly like Subtle spell on a Roguish character (Suggestion anyone? "You're like a Jedi!)

I'm not as big a fan of the three levels of BM fighter, as it delays your Rogue progression for too long with a smaller payout.

What's really nice about Rogue though is that it's flexible. The late levels for Rogue aren't necessarily as good as the first 15 levels, so you do have a bit of room to play with some class levels if you feel like it.

[Specter]

Definitely improve DEX, yours is too low. That gives +1 to attack, damage, AC, init, 3 important skills and DEX saves. No feat compares.

As for multi, Sorc 1, Warlock 2, Fighter 3 (any) are all solid.

[Arial Black]

I absolutely agree with the level of Draconic Sorcerer. Getting that +1 Studded Leather (which is what the Draconic AC bonus equals out to), Booming Blade, and the Shield spell all for 1 level of investment is fantastic. You could even decide to go three levels for some metamagic. I particularly like Subtle spell on a Roguish character (Suggestion anyone? "You're like a Jedi!)

I'm not as big a fan of the three levels of BM fighter, as it delays your Rogue progression for too long with a smaller payout.

What's really nice about Rogue though is that it's flexible. The late levels for Rogue aren't necessarily as good as the first 15 levels, so you do have a bit of room to play with some class levels if you feel like it.

Totally agree about Draconic sorcerer/booming blade, but there is a place for 3 or 4 levels of Battlemaster.

This leaves you 1 or 2d6 lower on Sneak Attack, but (with Riposte and Second Wind) allow you to actually use those SA dice twice per round instead of once.

[Gignere]

Totally agree about Draconic sorcerer/booming blade, but there is a place for 3 or 4 levels of Battlemaster.

This leaves you 1 or 2d6 lower on Sneak Attack, but (with Riposte and Second Wind) allow you to actually use those SA dice twice per round instead of once.

I think you meant Action Surge not second wind.

[Arial Black]

I think you meant Action Surge not second wind.

Ha! Yes, I meant Action Surge.

The trick is to use Action Surge to Ready an action, where that action will result in an attack where you can apply Sneak Attack damage when it isn't your own turn, thereby getting to use your Sneak Attack dice twice per round.

[shuangwucanada]

Dual-wielding is still a pretty bad option, especially as Sneak Attack is limited to One/Turn.

That's wrong. Yeah, like you are going to hit with EVERY attack.

Dual-wielding is very important for swashbucklers. It gives you OPTIONS.
- if your first attack hits, you can cunning action to double your movement and get to a better tactical position for your next turn.
- If your first attack misses, you can try a second time to get your sneak attack.
- If you end up being next to two foes somehow, you still have a safe passage to retreat.

[Specter]

That's wrong. Yeah, like you are going to hit with EVERY attack.

Dual-wielding is very important for swashbucklers. It gives you OPTIONS.
- if your first attack hits, you can cunning action to double your movement and get to a better tactical position for your next turn.
- If your first attack misses, you can try a second time to get your sneak attack.
- If you end up being next to two foes somehow, you still have a safe passage to retreat.

Agreed. Just the free disengage on two dudes instead of one speaks for itself.

And assuming there's at least a 20% chance of missing your target, you don't want to be the guy dealing no damage on your turn.

[RulesJD]

Agreed. Just the free disengage on two dudes instead of one speaks for itself.

And assuming there's at least a 20% chance of missing your target, you don't want to be the guy dealing no damage on your turn.

Precision die, the word you're looking for is Precision die.

I'd rather be the guy doing significantly more damage throughout the adventuring day due to Booming Blade's additional damage + lockdown ability.

[Specter]

Precision die, the word you're looking for is Precision die.

I'd rather be the guy doing significantly more damage throughout the adventuring day due to Booming Blade's additional damage + lockdown ability.

That's fair, but it's a 3 level investment. I'm all in for fighter multiclassing in any class, but unless you're going another 2 for Extra Attack Action Surge is not so great.

[RulesJD]

That's fair, but it's a 3 level investment. I'm all in for fighter multiclassing in any class, but unless you're going another 2 for Extra Attack Action Surge is not so great.

Yes, yes it is so great. You don't want Extra Attack because you're using Booming Blade which, yet again, does much more damage than a second attack on a Swashbuckling Rogue can reliably trigger the secondary damage.

3 levels in BM Fighter gets you everything you want as a Swashbuckler. You'd get much better results taking more levels in Sorc than Fighter due to Invisibility and Metamagic.

[Arial Black]

That's fair, but it's a 3 level investment. I'm all in for fighter multiclassing in any class, but unless you're going another 2 for Extra Attack Action Surge is not so great.

Action Surge, plus Riposte a number of times per short rest. Riposte lets you use your Sneak Attack twice per round.

Having Extra Attack, thus 5 levels of fighter, is a waste.

[Specter]

Action Surge, plus Riposte a number of times per short rest. Riposte lets you use your Sneak Attack twice per round.

Having Extra Attack, thus 5 levels of fighter, is a waste.

Extra Attack is for when you miss, and adding averagely 8dmg per round, but that's not the point I made.What I said is that if you do have extra attack, you attack four times when you surge. Without that, only two.

[Gignere]

You may want to consider 3 levels of warlock and abuse the crap out of darkness and bonus action hide. This is also a convenient way of nabbing GFB and/or BB.

[Arial Black]

Extra Attack is for when you miss, and adding averagely 8dmg per round, but that's not the point I made.What I said is that if you do have extra attack, you attack four times when you surge. Without that, only two.

If the Rogue/Swashbuckler is built around booming blade then neither Extra Attack nor TWF can be used, and if you use those attacks instead then even if they hit they would do less damage than the cantrip and waste your bonus action.

You shouldn't be too worried about missing with your single attack because you have Precise Strike as well as Riposte, and should be looking for ways to get advantage on your attack roll anyway.

[Laserlight]

Action Surge, plus Riposte a number of times per short rest. Riposte lets you use your Sneak Attack twice per round.

Depends on your tactics. I used to dart in, attack, and retreat back behind the fighter; therefore I seldom got ripostes. Also bear in mind that if a couple of monsters move to engage you, you may get a riposte but not qualify for Sneak.

[Specter]

If the Rogue/Swashbuckler is built around booming blade then neither Extra Attack nor TWF can be used, and if you use those attacks instead then even if they hit they would do less damage than the cantrip and waste your bonus action.

You shouldn't be too worried about missing with your single attack because you have Precise Strike as well as Riposte, and should be looking for ways to get advantage on your attack roll anyway.

I am not disagreeing with most of that. I'm saying that Action Surge is built around having many attacks or good spells to take advantage of it. With only one attack and low-level spells, it's not jaw-dropping.

And running the math: Swash 8/Fighter 3 with BB will deal avg34. Swash 11 will deal avg40 with two attacks. Swash 6/Fighter 5 will deal avg39 with three.

[Arial Black]

I am not disagreeing with most of that. I'm saying that Action Surge is built around having many attacks or good spells to take advantage of it. With only one attack and low-level spells, it's not jaw-dropping.

And running the math: Swash 8/Fighter 3 with BB will deal avg34. Swash 11 will deal avg40 with two attacks. Swash 6/Fighter 5 will deal avg39 with three.

Let's go through the detail.

Let us compare builds, and assume all attacks hit for the moment :-

* Swash 11 using two shortswords and the TWF rules having used both ASIs to turn his starting Dex of 16 into Dex 20: first attack 1d6 (shortsword) +5 (Dex) +6d6 Sneak Attack, second attack 1d6; average damage = 33

* Swash 11 using a single rapier having spent an ASI to get Dex 18 and another to get Magic Initiate/booming blade: 1d8 (rapier) +4 (Dex) +6d6 SA +2d8 (thunder)(+3d8 potential thunder if the target moves); = 38.5 plus a potential 13.5 = possibly 52

* Swash 8/BM 3 shortswords/TWF+style/Dex 20: 1d6 (sword) +5 (Dex) +4d6 SA, twice (Riposte), +1d6+5 second attack = 53.5

* Swash 8/BM 3 rapier/booming blade/Dex 18/Dueling style: 1d8 (rapier) +4 (Dex) +2 (style) +4d6 SA +2d8 (thunder), twice (Riposte, but no booming blade), +3d8 (potential thunder from move) = 58 + potential 13.5 = possibly 71.5

* Swash 6/BM 5 shortswords/TWF+style/Dex 20/Extra Attack: 1d6 (sword) +5 (Dex) +3d6 SA twice (Riposte), Extra Attack 1d6+5, off-hand attack 1d6+5 = 55

The two extra attacks (without SA) do not compensate for the extra SA die, thunder damage and potential extra thunder damage, never mind losing Evasion.

You get three bites of the cherry to apply SA, but with Precision Attack a miss should be rare. The potential extra thunder damage from moving is almost certain if you are solo versus an enemy without a ranged attack, less so if all enemies are engaged with other party members.

You pays your money and takes your choice.

[djreynolds]

Thanks to everyone for all your help on my earlier question! I ended up going Swashbuckler instead of Arcane Trickster (largely for OOC reasons, but I'm happy with the outcome). Now I'm trying to figure out what to do with him...

To recap: our party has a paladin (protection, I think oath of devotion), a monk (not sure which kind), a druid (again, not sure on circle), a draconic sorceror, a lore bard, an archer ranger, and a knowledge cleric. Plus me! I'm one of three melee characters. We just hit level 4.

I'm a half-elf. With standard array for stats, I'm sitting at STR 8, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, and CHA 14. I'm pretty sure I should put this ASI into +2 to Dex, since it improves basically everything about me, but I'm not sure from there.

My DM houseruled it as being okay for me to use a rapier and dagger instead of two shortswords for my dual-wielding, largely because I felt it was a lot more flavorful (and with the proviso that if I started taking extra attacks from another class or something we would revisit). I'm wondering, though, if I should take the Crossbow Expert feat and keep a hand crossbow in my off-hand instead of another melee weapon...

I might want to take a few levels of fighter for Battlemaster dice in a couple of levels, but I'm better off in light armor.

Thoughts?

Just stay rogue. I'm assuming you do not want a shield. You have great stats. You have an archer already. I would definitely stay and grab that 9th level persuasion ability, seems very cool. 5th comes uncanny dodge and its pretty good, and 6th is 2 more skills with expertise, and 7th is evasion, and 8th you now have 20 in dex. Every levels get some goodies almost. Every odd level is an increase in SA damage.

With that said every member of this team already covers so much... in a party this big you don't want to step on anyone's toes.

5th level is round the corner, and your caster will get a nice boost, monk will start stunning people... stay rogue.

[RulesJD]

Let's go through the detail.

*snip*

Many thank yous for doing the math, people don't realize how much extra that Booming Blade adds.

Additional reason why to go Fighter is shield proficiency. Boosts your AC to make Riposte more likely to trigger.

TWF as a Swashbuckler just isn't worth it with the SCAG cantrips available.

[djreynolds]

Many thank yous for doing the math, people don't realize how much extra that Booming Blade adds.

Additional reason why to go Fighter is shield proficiency. Boosts your AC to make Riposte more likely to trigger.

TWF as a Swashbuckler just isn't worth it with the SCAG cantrips available.

Does booming blade work if you buddy shoves them with shield master? Or is does movement have to be of their volition?

[vostyg]

Let's go through the detail.

Let us compare builds, and assume all attacks hit for the moment :-

* Swash 11 using two shortswords and the TWF rules having used both ASIs to turn his starting Dex of 16 into Dex 20: first attack 1d6 (shortsword) +5 (Dex) +6d6 Sneak Attack, second attack 1d6; average damage = 33

* Swash 11 using a single rapier having spent an ASI to get Dex 18 and another to get Magic Initiate/booming blade: 1d8 (rapier) +4 (Dex) +6d6 SA +2d8 (thunder)(+3d8 potential thunder if the target moves); = 38.5 plus a potential 13.5 = possibly 52

* Swash 8/BM 3 shortswords/TWF+style/Dex 20: 1d6 (sword) +5 (Dex) +4d6 SA, twice (Riposte), +1d6+5 second attack = 53.5

* Swash 8/BM 3 rapier/booming blade/Dex 18/Dueling style: 1d8 (rapier) +4 (Dex) +2 (style) +4d6 SA +2d8 (thunder), twice (Riposte, but no booming blade), +3d8 (potential thunder from move) = 58 + potential 13.5 = possibly 71.5

* Swash 6/BM 5 shortswords/TWF+style/Dex 20/Extra Attack: 1d6 (sword) +5 (Dex) +3d6 SA twice (Riposte), Extra Attack 1d6+5, off-hand attack 1d6+5 = 55

The two extra attacks (without SA) do not compensate for the extra SA die, thunder damage and potential extra thunder damage, never mind losing Evasion.

You get three bites of the cherry to apply SA Precision Attack a miss should be rare. The potential extra thunder damage from moving is almost certain if you are solo versus an enemy without a ranged attack, less so if all enemies are engaged with other party members.

You pays your money and takes your choice.

Riposte is good for the occasional nova, but you only have 4 superiority dice per short rest. For sustainable DPR, you would be better off choosing Ranger[Hunter] 5 over Fighter [Battlemaster] 5 for Colossus Slayer and Hunter's Mark.

[vostyg]

Does booming blade work if you buddy shoves them with shield master? Or is does movement have to be of their volition?

No. Your target has to move of his own volition.

[djreynolds]

Riposte is good for the occasional nova, but you only have 4 superiority dice per short rest. For sustainable DPR, you would be better off choosing Ranger[Hunter] 5 over Fighter [Battlemaster] 5 for Colossus Slayer and Hunter's Mark.


No. Your target has to move of his own volition.

Thanks for the answer, and score one for the ranger.

And you know what take both ranger and fighter if you want, but I like the ranger, and hunter's mark is always nice.

[Sir cryosin]

OK so your a half elf ask if you can be the variant version. where you can have one free cantrip. Then pick up 3lvs of ranger hunter the new one. For hunters mark ,Colossus Slayer, fighting style +1 to AC, and new favorite enemy. Then use one of your ASI to grab martial adept for riposte and precision. Then if you really want to pick up war caster to get BB on attacks of opportunity. And there you're a very very dangerous and scary DPR.

[MeeposFire]

I am actually a fn of going EK fighter for at least 7. That lets you use booming blade and get a second attack which does wonders for your accuracy and options. Also extra attack is then situationally useful such as when you are forced to be in ranged combat or when fighting something like a rakshasa.

Yea you lose about 4d6 sneak attack damage (average 14 damage) but your typical rapier attack adds nearly as much on average (9.5+any magical bonus and the like you can get) and it adds to your chances of being sure you hit with that sneak attack at all times.

Your defenses will also be pretty nice what with the option to add a shield and defensive stye to the mix.

[RulesJD]

Riposte is good for the occasional nova, but you only have 4 superiority dice per short rest. For sustainable DPR, you would be better off choosing Ranger[Hunter] 5 over Fighter [Battlemaster] 5 for Colossus Slayer and Hunter's Mark.

Haha, no.

Reliable Sneak Attack off-turn (especially because he didn't post the full build of taking Sentinel to get almost guaranteed off-turn sneak attacks) beats a 5 level dip into Ranger that adds, at best 7.5 damage per round.

4 times per short rest is as close to unlimited as you're going to get. Don't forget that Action Surge lets you do the same thing, only better, because you Booming Blade -> Action Surge -> Ready Action to Booming Blade after your turn is over -> Booming Blade + Sneak Attack again.

So really it's 5 times per short rest with a 5th time that's even stronger.

[Syll]

Let's go through the detail.
...

* Swash 11 using a single rapier having spent an ASI to get Dex 18 and another to get Magic Initiate/booming blade: 1d8 (rapier) +4 (Dex) +6d6 SA +2d8 (thunder)(+3d8 potential thunder if the target moves); = 38.5 plus a potential 13.5 = possibly 52


I might've missed it, but why not use the SCAG half elf variant to pick up a wizard cantrip and save yourself the ASI?

[Arial Black]

I might've missed it, but why not use the SCAG half elf variant to pick up a wizard cantrip and save yourself the ASI?

It doesn't save you the ASI, because the half-elf might choose a bonus cantrip but the human gets the whole bonus Magic Initiate feat.

[Syll]

It doesn't save you the ASI, because the half-elf might choose a bonus cantrip but the human gets the whole bonus Magic Initiate feat.

Ah ok I see what you're saying. I saw the OP is a half-elf, and then saw your post and conflated the two

[djreynolds]

Thanks to everyone for all your help on my earlier question! I ended up going Swashbuckler instead of Arcane Trickster (largely for OOC reasons, but I'm happy with the outcome). Now I'm trying to figure out what to do with him...

To recap: our party has a paladin (protection, I think oath of devotion), a monk (not sure which kind), a druid (again, not sure on circle), a draconic sorceror, a lore bard, an archer ranger, and a knowledge cleric. Plus me! I'm one of three melee characters. We just hit level 4.

I'm a half-elf. With standard array for stats, I'm sitting at STR 8, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, and CHA 14. I'm pretty sure I should put this ASI into +2 to Dex, since it improves basically everything about me, but I'm not sure from there.

My DM houseruled it as being okay for me to use a rapier and dagger instead of two shortswords for my dual-wielding, largely because I felt it was a lot more flavorful (and with the proviso that if I started taking extra attacks from another class or something we would revisit). I'm wondering, though, if I should take the Crossbow Expert feat and keep a hand crossbow in my off-hand instead of another melee weapon...

I might want to take a few levels of fighter for Battlemaster dice in a couple of levels, but I'm better off in light armor.

Thoughts?

You know what, your intelligence is 14, and you are an elf....well half.... bladesinger opens up a whole new world of opportunity for you. Access to the shield spell, cantrips and bladesong... for 2 levels

[RulesJD]

You know what, your intelligence is 14, and you are an elf....well half.... bladesinger opens up a whole new world of opportunity for you. Access to the shield spell, cantrips and bladesong... for 2 levels

Unfortunately Sorc is still a much better choice than Bladesinger.

1. Draconic Sorc means an instant +1 AC, always on
2. Bladesong doesn't let you use a shield, which is another instant +2, always on

Bladesingers can cast Mage Armor to make up for that, but it's not always on and that's one less level 1 spell slot. This build tends not to be concentrating on much so the concentration saves advantage isn't that important. Being able to wield a shield is the equivalent of Bladesong with 14 Int, except it's always on.

[vostyg]

4 times per short rest is as close to unlimited as you're going to get.

Haha, no, right back at you, with a double helping of condescension. Wanna know what's closer to unlimited than 4 times per short rest? Unlimited! Sustainable DPR doesn't factor in x per short rest or x per long rest abilities since you never really know when you are going to get a rest. If I can't use it nearly every round of every combat, then its a limited resource and therefore not sustainable, by definition. I've heard plenty of players lament the relative paucity of their Superiority Dice. Also, Riposte is conditional, so it requires DM cooperation to trigger. No melee attacks against you means no Riposte. It's good for a few nova rounds per short rest, like I said. It's good, but I think a lot of people oversell it.

[djreynolds]

Unfortunately Sorc is still a much better choice than Bladesinger.

1. Draconic Sorc means an instant +1 AC, always on
2. Bladesong doesn't let you use a shield, which is another instant +2, always on

Bladesingers can cast Mage Armor to make up for that, but it's not always on and that's one less level 1 spell slot. This build tends not to be concentrating on much so the concentration saves advantage isn't that important. Being able to wield a shield is the equivalent of Bladesong with 14 Int, except it's always on.

He definitely has the stats to either. It a good thing to have choices. And draconic sorcerer is 1 extra HP a level also.

[RulesJD]

Haha, no, right back at you, with a double helping of condescension. Wanna know what's closer to unlimited than 4 times per short rest? Unlimited! Sustainable DPR doesn't factor in x per short rest or x per long rest abilities since you never really know when you are going to get a rest. If I can't use it nearly every round of every combat, then its a limited resource and therefore not sustainable, by definition. I've heard plenty of players lament the relative paucity of their Superiority Dice. Also, Riposte is conditional, so it requires DM cooperation to trigger. No melee attacks against you means no Riposte. It's good for a few nova rounds per short rest, like I said. It's good, but I think a lot of people oversell it.

Which is why, as stated if you actually read my posts, you have the Sentinel feat. Either attack you and risk Riposte, or don't attack you and eat a Sentinel. DM discretion doesn't matter.

You'd almost think I played this build up to pretty high level.

[vostyg]

Which is why, as stated if you actually read my posts, you have the Sentinel feat. Either attack you and risk Riposte, or don't attack you and eat a Sentinel. DM discretion doesn't matter.

You'd almost think I played this build up to pretty high level.

Well, I have to admit that you've got me intrigued. Would you care to post your full build, including the progression? Any exposition on the basic tactics you employ would be useful as well. To use Riposte, for instance, you have to stand your ground in melee, which means that you're not leveraging the hit-and-run tactics that the Swashbuckler is known for. Aren't you a bit squishy for that?

[Arial Black]

Well, I have to admit that you've got me intrigued. Would you care to post your full build, including the progression? Any exposition on the basic tactics you employ would be useful as well. To use Riposte, for instance, you have to stand your ground in melee, which means that you're not leveraging the hit-and-run tactics that the Swashbuckler is known for. Aren't you a bit squishy for that?

Why would Riposte involve you standing your ground?

You (the swashbuckler) attacked with booming blade on your turn and used Dash as a bonus action to move more than 30 feet from your target. Then another baddy moved adjacent to you on its turn and attacked you, but missed. This allows you to use Riposte if you want, and since you moved away from the baddies on your turn, this new guy is likely the only adjacent enemy, so you get your Sneak Attack dice. This makes it a worthwhile use of a superiority die, if it is a worthwhile baddy.

[RulesJD]

Well, I have to admit that you've got me intrigued. Would you care to post your full build, including the progression? Any exposition on the basic tactics you employ would be useful as well. To use Riposte, for instance, you have to stand your ground in melee, which means that you're not leveraging the hit-and-run tactics that the Swashbuckler is known for. Aren't you a bit squishy for that?

Quick and dirty:

1. Rogue 3/Sorc 1/Fighter 3/Rogue or Sorc+ depending on what you want

2. V.Human for Sentinel.

3. BM Fighter Maneuvers (Precision, Riposte, Pushing)

4. Draconic Red Sorc (for Fire resistance later if you want more magic)

5. Use a Rapier + shield.

6. Open with Booming Blade, using Cunning Action to Dash around. Aim for enemies that will have to move to engage. Try to only be a few feet away from the enemy to temp them to come to you. I recommend at least Rogue 5 for Uncanny Dodge, it helps make you surprisingly tanky.

7. If attacking into an enemy already in melee with an ally, and you really want to trigger secondary damage, use Pushing Attack to shove the enemy back 15ft and force them to move to reengage. After doing so, stand next to ally where enemy will likely reengage and wait for either Riposte or Sentinel.

8. Use Action Surge when you want to guarantee an off-turn Sneak Attack with Booming Blade. Simply do your regular Booming Blade -> Action Surge -> Ready Action to Booming Blade after turn. Can choose a triggering reaction of "I see any hostile do anything hostile"

9. You'll have to choose when is appropriate to use Shield/Uncanny Dodge/Riposte/Sentinel as they all compete for your reaction.

[Arial Black]

Quick and dirty:

1. Rogue 3/Sorc 1/Fighter 3/Rogue or Sorc+ depending on what you want

2. V.Human for Sentinel.

3. BM Fighter Maneuvers (Precision, Riposte, Pushing)

4. Draconic Red Sorc (for Fire resistance later if you want more magic)

5. Use a Rapier + shield.

6. Open with Booming Blade, using Cunning Action to Dash around. Aim for enemies that will have to move to engage. Try to only be a few feet away from the enemy to temp them to come to you. I recommend at least Rogue 5 for Uncanny Dodge, it helps make you surprisingly tanky.

7. If attacking into an enemy already in melee with an ally, and you really want to trigger secondary damage, use Pushing Attack to shove the enemy back 15ft and force them to move to reengage. After doing so, stand next to ally where enemy will likely reengage and wait for either Riposte or Sentinel.

8. Use Action Surge when you want to guarantee an off-turn Sneak Attack with Booming Blade. Simply do your regular Booming Blade -> Action Surge -> Ready Action to Booming Blade after turn. Can choose a triggering reaction of "I see any hostile do anything hostile"

9. You'll have to choose when is appropriate to use Shield/Uncanny Dodge/Riposte/Sentinel as they all compete for your reaction.

This is very close to my build. You have a choice of three dragon types that give fire resistance (I would choose gold myself) but I chose silver for RP reasons.

I like your idea for Pushing Attack, but chose Menacing Attack instead (to target Wis).

I chose Defensive Duelist instead of shield; it doesn't use up a slot, and suits the swashbuckler/fencer flavour.

[RulesJD]

This is very close to my build. You have a choice of three dragon types that give fire resistance (I would choose gold myself) but I chose silver for RP reasons.

I like your idea for Pushing Attack, but chose Menacing Attack instead (to target Wis).

I chose Defensive Duelist instead of shield; it doesn't use up a slot, and suits the swashbuckler/fencer flavour.

Pushing Attack vs Menacing is honestly mostly a campaign dependent choice. I wouldn't take Menacing attack going into Curse of Strahd, but I also wouldn't use Pushing Attack in Storm Kings Thunder. Just that in general Pushing is great for forcing that extra 2-3d8 damage.

I don't like Defensive Duelist just because it uses up a feat and it only applies to one attack, where as using a shield is always on (plus magical shields later on given bigger benefits ala Spellguard etc).

[vostyg]

Why would Riposte involve you standing your ground?

You (the swashbuckler) attacked with booming blade on your turn and used Dash as a bonus action to move more than 30 feet from your target. Then another baddy moved adjacent to you on its turn and attacked you, but missed. This allows you to use Riposte if you want, and since you moved away from the baddies on your turn, this new guy is likely the only adjacent enemy, so you get your Sneak Attack dice. This makes it a worthwhile use of a superiority die, if it is a worthwhile baddy.

Read the post that I was responding to, and you'll understand the context in which I made this statement. It was not intended as a universal assertion that you always need to stand your ground in order to use Riposte. The debate was about whether Riposte depended on DM cooperation, and RuleJD posited a scenario in which the DM would be strongly incentivized to attack you because of the Sentinel feat. In the example you provide, the DM has no reason to attack you over someone else.

[vostyg]

Quick and dirty:

1. Rogue 3/Sorc 1/Fighter 3/Rogue or Sorc+ depending on what you want

2. V.Human for Sentinel.

3. BM Fighter Maneuvers (Precision, Riposte, Pushing)

4. Draconic Red Sorc (for Fire resistance later if you want more magic)

5. Use a Rapier + shield.

6. Open with Booming Blade, using Cunning Action to Dash around. Aim for enemies that will have to move to engage. Try to only be a few feet away from the enemy to temp them to come to you. I recommend at least Rogue 5 for Uncanny Dodge, it helps make you surprisingly tanky.

7. If attacking into an enemy already in melee with an ally, and you really want to trigger secondary damage, use Pushing Attack to shove the enemy back 15ft and force them to move to reengage. After doing so, stand next to ally where enemy will likely reengage and wait for either Riposte or Sentinel.

8. Use Action Surge when you want to guarantee an off-turn Sneak Attack with Booming Blade. Simply do your regular Booming Blade -> Action Surge -> Ready Action to Booming Blade after turn. Can choose a triggering reaction of "I see any hostile do anything hostile"

9. You'll have to choose when is appropriate to use Shield/Uncanny Dodge/Riposte/Sentinel as they all compete for your reaction.
I like it. Thanks for posting. As you state, there are a lot of things competing for your reaction, but that can be spun as "good versatility".

If UA is allowed, Shadow Sorcerer is a nice pickup for human and halfling rogues since a 1-level dip gives you darkvision that can penetrate your own darkness spells as well as the ability to cast darkness at 2nd level and beyond for 1 sorcery point.

[BloodxHunter]

this is off topic... but just popping in to say I love the title of this thread

ok by now:smallcool:

[Gignere]

I like it. Thanks for posting. As you state, there are a lot of things competing for your reaction, but that can be spun as "good versatility".

If UA is allowed, Shadow Sorcerer is a nice pickup for human and halfling rogues since a 1-level dip gives you darkvision that can penetrate your own darkness spells as well as the ability to cast darkness at 2nd level and beyond for 1 sorcery point.

EDIT: Just remembered that the shield spell requires verbal and somatic components, so it would require a free hand to cast, which means you couldn't do it, even with Warcaster, unless your DM is playing fast and loose with the rules for components, or you are stowing your rapier at the end of each of your turns, which would negate your ability to use Riposte or Sentinel OA with Sneak Attack.

If you like the darkness + sight combo a non UA option is to just go out and get a minimum of 3 levels of warlock. You can at least get booming blade, eldritch blast. Personally for a warlock dip I prefer 5 levels to get counter spell, since daylight and dispel is your worse nightmare with darkness + sight combo. This will also give you 3 invocations, for optimization I would suggest armor of shadows, devil's sight, and improved tome (another 3 cantrips and familiar). The shield spell is less valuable for a rogue just because the rogue already has a great defensive reaction ability uncanny dodge.

[vostyg]

If you like the darkness + sight combo a non UA option is to just go out and get a minimum of 3 levels of warlock. You can at least get booming blade, eldritch blast. Personally for a warlock dip I prefer 5 levels to get counter spell, since daylight and dispel is your worse nightmare with darkness + sight combo. This will also give you 3 invocations, for optimization I would suggest armor of shadows, devil's sight, and improved tome (another 3 cantrips and familiar). The shield spell is less valuable for a rogue just because the rogue already has a great defensive reaction ability uncanny dodge.
Sure, but it takes a minimum 3-level dip, 2 levels to get Devil's Sight and another one to get Darkness. It also doesn't really fit with the build that RulesJD was proposing. He suggested 1 level of Draconic sorcerer, and I was suggesting that you might get more out of 1 level of Shadow sorcerer if you are playing a variant human and planning to take more sorcerer levels down the road.

[Sigreid]

Using the large weapons without penalty could be appropriate for some campaigns. If, for example a campaign wants to allow that anime thing where the hero pulls a sword or ax out from under his jacket that's three times the size of his body to fight with.

Edit: Ooops, wrong thread.

[lesbiasparrow]

this is off topic... but just popping in to say I love the title of this thread

ok by now:smallcool:

Why, thank you. :)

For anyone still interested: we're about to hit level 5, and we've lost our paladin. We're holding our own so far in combat, and the game is about 50/50 investigation/combat anyway.

I do not intend to take sorcerer levels, even though it might be more optimal, because we already have a draconic sorcerer and it feels a bit cheesy to me. I might use my next ASI for Magic Initiate, or I might rebuild as an Arcane Trickster, or I might do some Fighter levels after I get my next round of Expertise skills... We'll see. If we run into trouble in combat without the paladin, the druid might rebuild as Moon or I might try to make myself tankier. I really appreciate the help!