Oath of the Ancients Question with "Turn the Faithless."

[Tawmis]

I am pretty sure I know the answer - and it's no (which is what I am hoping!)

With Oath of the Ancients, there is a "skill" called "Turn the Faithless."

Turn the Faithless. You can use your Channel Divinity to utter ancient words that are painful for fey and fiends to hear. As an action, you present your holy symbol, and each fey or fiend within 30 feet of you that can hear you must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is turned for 1 minute or until it takes damage. (SNIP SOME) If the creature’s true form is concealed by an illusion, shapeshifting, or other effect, that form is revealed while it is turned.

Now I assume - a creature like a Doppleganger would not be impacted, because they are neither fiend nor fey, correct?

[Ruslan]

It could be read both ways. It depends whether you read the sentence starting with "If the creature’s true form is concealed ..." as a rider on the effect, or as a whole new effect of Turn the Faithless.

Option 1:
- This ability turns Fey and Fiends.
- As a rider to this effect, if the true from of the above-mentioned Fey or Fiend is concealed ... etc.

Option 2:
- This ability turns Fey and Fiends.
- It also has a completely different effect: if a creature's true form is concealed ... etc.

For what it's worth, I read it the first way, but if you read it the second way, I can't say you're wrong.

[Tawmis]

It could be read both ways. It depends whether you read the sentence starting with "If the creature’s true form is concealed ..." as a rider on the effect, or as a whole new effect of Turn the Faithless.

Option 1:
- This ability turns Fey and Fiends.
- As a rider to this effect, if the true from of the above-mentioned Fey or Fiend is concealed ... etc.

Option 2:
- This ability turns Fey and Fiends.
- It also has a completely different effect: if a creature's true form is concealed ... etc.

For what it's worth, I read it the first way, but if you read it the second way, I can't say you're wrong.

No, I too read it the first way - that it'd only reveal Fey/Fiends that are using illusions, disguise, etc. But Dopplegangers would not be impacted, because they are neither fiend nor fay.

I ask because my party just hit Level 3... and coming up I have a pretty big Doppleganger campaign idea... and I want to be fair to my players. If it's intended to reveal ANY creature who is disguised, I will go with it. But I am reading it as Fey/Fiends only. Just wanted opinions.

[MrStabby]

I would argue the former based on the word "the", but it isn't well written.

"The" suggests a defined creature and there is no definition in the second part so I think it would be reasonable to carry "the creature" through from the first part where it was defined as any fay of fiend effected by the ability.

If it had said "If a creatures true form is concealed by an illusion" then I think it would be easier to think it applied as a separate ability.

[Tawmis]

I would argue the former based on the word "the", but it isn't well written.

"The" suggests a defined creature and there is no definition in the second part so I think it would be reasonable to carry "the creature" through from the first part where it was defined as any fay of fiend effected by the ability.

If it had said "If a creatures true form is concealed by an illusion" then I think it would be easier to think it applied as a separate ability.

I was thinking the same thing. Like if it said "It would reveal ANY creature..."

But since the whole thing seems focused on impacting fay/fiends... I believe it's intended just for them to be impacted.

[Ruslan]

But I am reading it as Fey/Fiends only. Just wanted opinions.Well, my opinion also is that it's Fey/Fiends only. No complaints from me. But I can't predict what the Paladin player's opinion will be. It is possible he will subscribe to the second reading and feel cheated. I'm not really sure how you can find out what your player's understanding is without giving too much of the plot away ...

[brainface]

I'd very clearly side with it only revealing disguised fiends and fey. Imps and Succubi immediately spring to mind, and while I'm not sure how many Shapechanger fey their are in the monsters manual it's certainly a trope for fey to disguise in some fashion.

(If you're hoping one of your players doesn't use it to reveal a doppelganger, I would encourage you to make said doppelganger a fey or fiend, personally. The paladin/priest revealing the evil Shapechanger imposter is also sort of a trope, and would be an awesome scene. ^^)

[Tawmis]

Well, my opinion also is that it's Fey/Fiends only. No complaints from me. But I can't predict what the Paladin player's opinion will be. It is possible he will subscribe to the second reading and feel cheated. I'm not really sure how you can find out what your player's understanding is without giving too much of the plot away ...

Well, the good news - is they're pretty new to D&D - especially 5th Edition.
So they'd be cool with whatever I told them - because I always have to sit down with them, each time they get a new skill like this, and explain how it works. Which is why I thought I'd be proactive and get some opinions.


I'd very clearly side with it only revealing disguised fiends and fey. Imps and Succubi immediately spring to mind, and while I'm not sure how many Shapechanger fey their are in the monsters manual it's certainly a trope for fey to disguise in some fashion. (If you're hoping one of your players doesn't use it to reveal a doppelganger, I would encourage you to make said doppelganger a fey or fiend, personally. The paladin/priest revealing the evil Shapechanger imposter is also sort of a trope, and would be an awesome scene. ^^)

Well, I love looking at what my players can do and modelling the campaigns around their skill sets (so that I can try to make sure everyone gets a fair shake at having moments to shine) - so the Doppleganger is just the beginning. He (It?) has infiltrated a very high position in a major city, and using it for less than lawful purposes (for example, blaming a mass murderer that is very much like Jack the Ripper - but it's actually the Doppleganer). Now the Paladin may be able to tell this high ranking person's alignment - but then it will be a matter of proving it - which will eventually led to a pack with demons... which is where the Paladin will shine.

[ethertwist]

I am pretty sure I know the answer - and it's no (which is what I am hoping!)

With Oath of the Ancients, there is a "skill" called "Turn the Faithless."

Turn the Faithless. You can use your Channel Divinity to utter ancient words that are painful for fey and fiends to hear. As an action, you present your holy symbol, and each fey or fiend within 30 feet of you that can hear you must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is turned for 1 minute or until it takes damage. (SNIP SOME) If the creature’s true form is concealed by an illusion, shapeshifting, or other effect, that form is revealed while it is turned.

Now I assume - a creature like a Doppleganger would not be impacted, because they are neither fiend nor fey, correct?

Another vote for fey/fiends only. The language uses the definite article 'the' - so it refers to a specific creature.

Note that in the first part you have quoted is says this as well "On a failed save, the creature is turned for 1 minute or until it takes damage". So it's established that 'the creature' refers to the target of the Channel Divinity (each fey or fiend within 30 feet) and then notes that 'the creature's' true form is revealed.

ETA: In fact it explicitly states that the creature's form is revealed while it is turned. You can't turn anything other than fey/fiends with this ability, so you can't reveal anything other than fey/fiends either.




I'd very clearly side with it only revealing disguised fiends and fey. Imps and Succubi immediately spring to mind, and while I'm not sure how many Shapechanger fey their are in the monsters manual it's certainly a trope for fey to disguise in some fashion.



Hags. I am pretty gutted as I am currently running a campaign with a Hag Coven (1 sea [fey], 1 green [fey] and 1 night [fiend]) as a secret antagonist party and my Paladin just took OotA not knowing anything about the hags (bah!). Sea Hag and Green Hag have 'Illusory Appearance' and Night Hag has 'Change Shape'. Oh well they need to be found out at some point I guess!

[Tawmis]

Another vote for fey/fiends only. The language uses the definite article 'the' - so it refers to a specific creature.
Note that in the first part you have quoted is says this as well "On a failed save, the creature is turned for 1 minute or until it takes damage". So it's established that 'the creature' refers to the target of the Channel Divinity (each fey or fiend within 30 feet) and then notes that 'the creature's' true form is revealed.
ETA: In fact it explicitly states that the creature's form is revealed while it is turned. You can't turn anything other than fey/fiends with this ability, so you can't reveal anything other than fey/fiends either.


Okay. Good. Good. It's how I read it too.



Hags. I am pretty gutted as I am currently running a campaign with a Hag Coven (1 sea [fey], 1 green [fey] and 1 night [fiend]) as a secret antagonist party and my Paladin just took OotA not knowing anything about the hags (bah!). Sea Hag and Green Hag have 'Illusory Appearance' and Night Hag has 'Change Shape'. Oh well they need to be found out at some point I guess!

Deception is a fun thing to play. Especially after you throw a bunch of obvious monsters (here's a lair of goblins, cleared'em! Over here, a lair of kobolds! Cleared'em! Over here a layer of Bugbears! Cleared'em! Now the mayor - who isn't a mayor - sends you on an unusual mission... because you're proving to be too much of a threat...)

[Arkhios]

Via strict rules-abiding interpretation the answer to OP's question would be no, since the game doesn't classify Doppelganger as neither fey or fiend. Even if folklore might conflict with this.

[Tallis]

I think the key point is that it says it reveals their true form while turned. Since a doppleganger would not be turned it's true form is not revealed.

[SillyPopeNachos]

Turn the faithless only effects fiends and fey, while the doppelganger is a monstrosity.