Teach me how to summon well (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

So right now I wanted to learn how to make a good summoner but the problem is that I only know the basics on that part as I usually go for Blasting, Utility or BFC when playing a caster. So could anyone just tell me more of what should I read, good abilities, good online handbooks, best summoning spells, feats, etc

[gorfnab]

Here are some Summoning Handbooks that may help you.
Summoning Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11186)
The Summoner's Desk Reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5)
Mastering the Malconvoker (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2791)

[Efrate]

Primary things: Summons are versatile. You need a BSF? You got one. A scout? Got one. A blaster? Got one. BFC bot? Got one. Have a nasty AMF you need to deal with? Summon something with high SR. A healer? Got one. There is a summon for most everything.

Summoners help break the action economy. If you have a planar bound minion,1d3 +1 good summoned monsters, or whatever, the total actions you can take are significantly higher than average. At minimum, you now have 4 standard actions, 4 move actions, 4 swift actions at minimum every round. That is without stuff like haste or mass snake's swiftness.
As a person who plays BFC casters you know how important that is.

edit: Swordsaged.

[Bullet06320]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498825-the-Conjurer-s-Handbook&highlight=conjuration%20handbook

theres a few more links at the bottom of this thread too

[dantiesilva]

As someone who has often loved the idea of playing a summoner (but all DM's being afraid to allow him into a game once he is seen) I can understand the want and love of playing a summoner. With that in mind their are very few options available that are not in Dragon magazine or 3rd party, that will help you in your endeavors to become a summoner. As has been shown some of the best summoners are Malconvokers, Master specialist, Druids, and a few other Prestige classes mentioned in the links provided to you. In Dragon their is a feat called Dual-Planes summons that allows you to attack the abilities of an astral construct onto your summons if you are a Psion/wizard(sorcerer/or other such class), which I don't believe I need to explain how amazing it is in a gestalt game.

Now I am fairly certain you are not allowed to mention 3rd party books on the forums so instead I will suggest you look up the authors Patrick Younts and Ewan Conradie. The two mentioned authors have great works of art that allow your summoner to be a bit more specialized and unique rather than just taking a few classes that help you be a summoner, but do not really do anything to say hey look this is why I am a master summoner. Just to give an example my Summoner summons all his creatures with the elite array, on top of other bonuses gained just from him summoning them, augment summoning being one of them. If you do end up getting your DM to allow you to do this however be kind to your fellow players and have a sheet made up for at least one creature of every level that you think you will summon often. My character focused on summoning Devils so almost everything was either a devil or fiendish creature with the LE alignment.

I hope this helps you in some way so that you have a great experience playing a summoner.

[Bullet06320]

Now I am fairly certain you are not allowed to mention 3rd party books on the forums.

actually you can, 3rd party tho isn't always allowed at some tables, I make use of a lot personally
What specific books and feats do you find good?

[dantiesilva]

A Menagerie of Summoner Options by Patrick Younts has spells like Legion which I like to use that allows you to summon the maximum ammount of summons if you use your SMIV to say summon creatures off of the SMII list. It also has the feat called paragon creature which allows all your summons to have the elite array which you than really need to make a sheet for each summon you have.

While the other book is simply called summoner feats by Ewan Conradie. This book has things that for instance allow your summons to deal elemental damage of varying types, allows you to get improved augment summoning before epic levels, and a nice feat for early level called favored summons which gives a single creature of each level (up to level 3) a bonus to hp equal to your caster level much like Master specalist does.

I use a mix of the UA variant conjurer, the Malconvoker class, and Master specalist along with these feats to make my individual summoners unique and each creature being able to do something it normally would not be able to. For instance normally low level summons are bad at high levels as they simply can not hit anything, however their is a feat chain that improves creatures chances of hitting so long as they are flanking or dodging enemy attacks making using a high level summon with legion to summon a horde not such a horrible idea. And if you get master specalist capstone for a conjuer you can cast conjuration spells as a swift action (I believe so many times a day) meaning you could potentially have over 10 monsters on the field in a single turn. So now even if they are not harming the enemy, they are meat shields for your allies. Hell once I summoned 2 dire bats and a horde of small monsterous spiders to attack a paladin outpost, sent nerra varrots in through mirrors disguised as guards so they could backstab and cause chaos while me, and the party simply followed the tunnel the druid was making for us to break in. In my defense they stole my familiar who was an imp disguised as a child so I had to go save him.

[Efrate]

How often to you need more than a few extra bodies though? Elite array is nice, but a few great monsters will be better than a bunch of small ones. In a standard four encounters a day you should always be fine with your few highest summons. You won't need to burn SM III for combat, as well as some amount of feats, when you have 2 or 3 SM VIII, and 3 or 4 SM VII. Plus planar binding. Plus Planar ally. Plus cohort, etc.

Use some of the lower SMs for utility like scouting or for SLAs if needed, but when it comes time to beat face use your good stuff. With few exceptions, you do all the other castery stuff through your summons already, you do not need to sacrifice precious slots on utility spells, you got a minion for that.

If you want hordes, just be a cleric/necromancer of some kind and make your army of undead. Dropping 10 critters in a round sounds neat, but you won't need that many except in very niche situations. And a bigger, badder, pile o' HP will do it better than a bunch of mooks if you just need to run away. Your enemies can easily ignore 8 celestial badgers, they won't do anything. But one (or two with malconvoker) fiendish gargantuan monsterous centipedes will do it a lot better. Even if all those badgers hit with their 1d2 minus 1 damage or whatever, between DR, HP totals, and whatnot, it isn't going to matter. Contrast that to your big guy, your centipede is doing 2d8 + 9, overcoming DR/magic, has poison, a decent grapple, and take up enough space to easily provide cover or at least a roadblock so you have time to run.

[Bullet06320]

A Menagerie of Summoner Options by Patrick Younts has spells like Legion which I like to use that allows you to summon the maximum ammount of summons if you use your SMIV to say summon creatures off of the SMII list. It also has the feat called paragon creature which allows all your summons to have the elite array which you than really need to make a sheet for each summon you have.

While the other book is simply called summoner feats by Ewan Conradie. This book has things that for instance allow your summons to deal elemental damage of varying types, allows you to get improved augment summoning before epic levels, and a nice feat for early level called favored summons which gives a single creature of each level (up to level 3) a bonus to hp equal to your caster level much like Master specalist does.

I use a mix of the UA variant conjurer, the Malconvoker class, and Master specalist along with these feats to make my individual summoners unique and each creature being able to do something it normally would not be able to. For instance normally low level summons are bad at high levels as they simply can not hit anything, however their is a feat chain that improves creatures chances of hitting so long as they are flanking or dodging enemy attacks making using a high level summon with legion to summon a horde not such a horrible idea. And if you get master specalist capstone for a conjuer you can cast conjuration spells as a swift action (I believe so many times a day) meaning you could potentially have over 10 monsters on the field in a single turn. So now even if they are not harming the enemy, they are meat shields for your allies. Hell once I summoned 2 dire bats and a horde of small monsterous spiders to attack a paladin outpost, sent nerra varrots in through mirrors disguised as guards so they could backstab and cause chaos while me, and the party simply followed the tunnel the druid was making for us to break in. In my defense they stole my familiar who was an imp disguised as a child so I had to go save him.

im not familer with those 2 books, so thanks for the info, seems worth looking into

[dantiesilva]

How often to you need more than a few extra bodies though? Elite array is nice, but a few great monsters will be better than a bunch of small ones. In a standard four encounters a day you should always be fine with your few highest summons. You won't need to burn SM III for combat, as well as some amount of feats, when you have 2 or 3 SM VIII, and 3 or 4 SM VII. Plus planar binding. Plus Planar ally. Plus cohort, etc.

Use some of the lower SMs for utility like scouting or for SLAs if needed, but when it comes time to beat face use your good stuff. With few exceptions, you do all the other castery stuff through your summons already, you do not need to sacrifice precious slots on utility spells, you got a minion for that.

If you want hordes, just be a cleric/necromancer of some kind and make your army of undead. Dropping 10 critters in a round sounds neat, but you won't need that many except in very niche situations. And a bigger, badder, pile o' HP will do it better than a bunch of mooks if you just need to run away. Your enemies can easily ignore 8 celestial badgers, they won't do anything. But one (or two with malconvoker) fiendish gargantuan monsterous centipedes will do it a lot better. Even if all those badgers hit with their 1d2 minus 1 damage or whatever, between DR, HP totals, and whatnot, it isn't going to matter. Contrast that to your big guy, your centipede is doing 2d8 + 9, overcoming DR/magic, has poison, a decent grapple, and take up enough space to easily provide cover or at least a roadblock so you have time to run.



It was an example of what the book can offer you not saying it was the best thing. Naming all the feats and what they did would be impractical, naming some of the better ones and flavorful ones makes more sense.

[Eldariel]

Summons do great many things. Things like Rashemi Elemental Summoning Orglashes [Unapproachable East] or stock Storm Elementals [MM3] allow you to cast them as blast-spells that do more damage than level-appropriate blast spells and stick around to do stuff afterwards. In those cases you often want to summon multiple lower level things and things like Rods of Maximize/Empower Spell become quite interesting when you go down that road. Things like Outsiders generally give you access to an array of spells - again, just check the spells you want and summon as many as desired.

The big thing to remember is that you essentially have 3 tables worth of good stuff to pick from when you cast Summon Monster. This makes it one of the most versatile lines of spells right after the broken stuff (Polymorph, Planar Binding, Gate, etc.). Each Summon spell you prepare can become any number of things so knowing your enemy becomes doubly as important (coincidentally, this is why Knowledge-skills rock). Normally you won't prepare mind-affecting or fear spells on high level but if you do run into something where that's convenient, you can just summon something to blast their brain for you. Hell, Druids get Otto's Irresistible Dance out of Summon Nature's Ally IX which is the epitome of "not really worth preparing but autowins encounters where it works".


But yeah, ultimately we can tell you little that isn't in the handbooks. Particularly lists and assessments of the various summonable creatures (and of course, the appropriate feats to buff them) should be of great interest to you.

[RoboEmperor]

1. Memorize all of the special abilities of the creatures you can summon at every level.
2. Battlefield Control. Spiders throwing around infinite webs = win. Summoning celestial dogs to kill stuff = bad.

Finished.

Optional
3. Memorize all of the creatures you can summon outside core and their special abilities. This is very OP so some people will hate it. Summon Monster VIII in BoED has some kind of elephant angel thingy that has a no-save stun spam.

Lots of resources out there going "___ from summon monster ___ is OP" so look those up if you're not sure what is good or not.

[ace rooster]

Learn to play fast. If you want to keep playing a summoner, the rest of the table has to be ok with it.

Learn to treat the action economy more lightly. You get lots of low power actions, so don't be scared use ready. A SM3 dretch that has readied a stinking cloud to get dropped when somebody tries to cast can shut down much more powerful spells by blocking vision. It is no great loss if the action is wasted.

Your summons are not dangerous (barring storm elemental cheese), so don't try to use them like they are. The are battlefield control, utility, and harass. A summon can do it's job simply by being in the way and preventing a charge. A summoned bison can bull rush people into area spells or past more dangerous AoOs. A readied bull rush against an enemy attack can move them out of position to attack who they want to, preventing them from counterattacking the barbarian that just charged them (and provoking an AoO from the barbarian). Even SM1 centipedes are able to ready a move to intercept a charge, and you can get 5 of them from a maximised SM3. One big critter is usually more dangerous, but also more vulnerable to single target abilities. Lots of crap ones are worth considering if you just want a trip hazard.

Look for tactics that don't rely on being comparable power to the target, because your summons gnerally won't be. Some grapplers are, simply by being huge, but this is the exception.

Speak to the DM about the limits of creatures before you use them. Can celestial monkeys throw alchemist's fire? Is Int 3 enough to understand "defend and intercept any charge?". Is it cruel to use celestial monkeys to set off symbols of pain? :smalltongue:

[flappeercraft]

Learn to play fast. If you want to keep playing a summoner, the rest of the table has to be ok with it.

Learn to treat the action economy more lightly. You get lots of low power actions, so don't be scared use ready. A SM3 dretch that has readied a stinking cloud to get dropped when somebody tries to cast can shut down much more powerful spells by blocking vision. It is no great loss if the action is wasted.

Your summons are not dangerous (barring storm elemental cheese), so don't try to use them like they are. The are battlefield control, utility, and harass. A summon can do it's job simply by being in the way and preventing a charge. A summoned bison can bull rush people into area spells or past more dangerous AoOs. A readied bull rush against an enemy attack can move them out of position to attack who they want to, preventing them from counterattacking the barbarian that just charged them (and provoking an AoO from the barbarian). Even SM1 centipedes are able to ready a move to intercept a charge, and you can get 5 of them from a maximised SM3. One big critter is usually more dangerous, but also more vulnerable to single target abilities. Lots of crap ones are worth considering if you just want a trip hazard.

Look for tactics that don't rely on being comparable power to the target, because your summons gnerally won't be. Some grapplers are, simply by being huge, but this is the exception.

Speak to the DM about the limits of creatures before you use them. Can celestial monkeys throw alchemist's fire? Is Int 3 enough to understand "defend and intercept any charge?". Is it cruel to use celestial monkeys to set off symbols of pain? :smalltongue:

About that I'm the DM and I asked the players if I can use some cheese and if they would be OK with it, also I specified to them I would be hard on them before we started the campaign and they were ok with that too.

[RoboEmperor]

About that I'm the DM and I asked the players if I can use some cheese and if they would be OK with it, also I specified to them I would be hard on them before we started the campaign and they were ok with that too.

Biggest cheese is equipping summoned creatures with magic items before summoning them. It's a variant rule in the PHB I believe. So find a summonable creature, equip it with a ton of magic items, then summon that specific creature. There is a 24-hour no summon period if the creature dies though.

[Calthropstu]

It's best to start simple.

Summon Monster.

In 3.5 this means knowing what to summon at particular levels.

Level 1: I have had great experience with the celestial dog and the fiendish hawk. At 3 attacks per round, the hawk is likely a better attacker than most party members, albeit with very low damage, and the dog's trip attack is also quite useful.

Level 3 (+1 for a summoner sorcerer): Celestial Eagle and Fiendish Wolf are upgraded versions while you also gain access to your first large monster the centipede. Also the fiendish monstrous scorpion is a good choice as well for the poison. Alternatively, if you have picked up the feat that gives +1 to the number that appear, it may be more advantageous to summon 1d3+1 of the summon 1 dogs and hawks.

Level 5: Summon monster 3 is where things open up. There's a lot of good choices for a lot of good reasons. For utility, air elementals and earth elementals can simply go where you can't. Not impressive in combat, but their versatility makes them indispensable. The hell hound has a nice area attack, while the dretch has some nice staying power and some decent abilities. But where the real power lies is the bear and the bison. The bison, an impressive to hit and damage, especially with augment summoning, is a mainstay of your arsenal for levels to come, and the bear's 3 attacks will rip many enemies to shreds. The staying power of both those animals are solid enough that they will serve well even at level 9.

Level 7: This is where summoning 1d3+1 becomes not just viable, but crucial. 1d3+1 large monsters with the power of the bison or bear is a game breaking change. No longer can the enemies afford to ignore your summons, which means hundreds of damage directed at your party is going to be redirected to summoned creaters: especially with fighting undead hordes and other animals like remorhazzes. The celestial lion and the giant eagle are nice, the giant eagle is likely the first flying monster you can summon that you can hitch a ride on, while the mephits special abilities are wide and varied enough that you can generally find something to fit your specific needs. But 1d3+1 lower summons is generally a MUCH better option. A good shout out to the lantern archon though: those things can really pack a whollop against creatures with heavy DR. And the giant wasp poison can put many humanoids completely out of commission.

Level 9: Oh the griffon. I have always been partial to griffons. Riding a griffon into battle is definitely the way to go. Meanwhile, you get a very sorely needed upgrade to your bears at this point. You finally get the upgrade to elementals you've been looking for that should have come 2 levels ago *grumbles* (something pathfinder did right imho) and you finally get a decent cat: the tiger. But the Alcherai is an extremely potent 8d6+16(if you haven't taken augment summoning yet, you're doing it wrong) potential. You also start getting access to core lower plain army members in the form of the bearded devil. The upgrades are good enough that summoning 1 vs 1d3+1 lower levels is really a question. But don't forget you also still have summon monster 4: those 1d3+1 summon monster 3 monsters are STILL viable even now. If you're a sorcerer, at level 10 you can easily get rid of summon monster 1 and 2 in favor of better utility spells. 1st and second level summons have been completely outclassed and are virtually useless at this point except as trap fodder.

Level 11: Oh the chaos beast. So much fun. Not much damage output, but if you can lower their fort saves while they fight it, it is one hell of an anti mage spell. That nasty ability is likely to scare any enemy who knows what it is to kill it with extreme prejudice. No one wants incorporeal instability. Its spell resistance is negligible at this level, but that ability is more than enough to get attacks directed towards it instead of party members. You also finally have access to large elementals. Elemental staying power is amazing at this point, and will likely last entire combats, even against high level foes such as dragons. Janni special abilities can be useful, but not seriously combat oriented. You also get access to your first real angel type: the bralani. Far better summoned in large numbers at higher levels, these things will surprise you with how powerful and versatile they really are. With lightning bolts, decent arrow attacks, and healing they are a great bolstering force to any combat. The huge elasmosaurus is also a great help, and with an impressive 131 hp will likely outlast most characters. And with 10 hit dice, it gains the dr 10 fire and cold from the fiendish template. Other than that, it's literally more of the same stuff you saw at lower levels just bigger.

Level 13: Here's another critical turn. You will notice a lot more special creatures and a lot fewer celestial and fiendish. Looking at the monster stats, we have a lot more variety to choose from. For versatility and staying power, we have elementals, for supreme invisibility we have the invisible stalkers, for damage output (plus poison) we have the bone devil with an impressive 4 attacks per round as well as an impressive array of spell like abilities, but something that is generally overlooked is the avoral's impressive 25 SR.

Level 15: Here you break the mold. This is where your character truly shines. Summon monster 8 has among the best versatility in the game. People scoff at summon monster at this level. They say "Oh there's so many more useful spells." Suck my T-rex. Let's see you make my +32 dc grapple check mages. What? You maxed your skill ranks? Ok so 18 + con bonus of maybe +3 vs 10 + my trex' grapple of 32 + spell level... You fail on a nat 20. The trex is the "Up yours" mages summons. Yeah yeah, ring of freedom of movement... nothing a good old fashioned dispel magic can't fix. Apart from this amazingly ridiculous anti mage summons (and its also very impressive damage output of 3d6+ 33 against good creatures... don't forget that smite!) there's other very impressive things available. The elementals continue to be a powerful versatility, while the skill monkey in the lillend will give a decent boost. Plus it's a bard too. The celestial dire bear has some great damage output, as does the dire tiger. But the Vrock is probably the best combat summons. If you can get 3 of them into play and get them dancing, that 20d6 electrical damage is a show stopper. And the 5 attacks per round is nothing to sneeze at.

Level 17: I find it best to summon 1d3+1 trex or 1d3+1 Vrocks with summon 9. Though a leonal can be a great battlefield control summons, and the elder elementals come in very handy situationally. All the options here are good, but 1d3+1 trex truly breaks any defensive line and 1d3+1 vrocks is likely to get you your 3 dancing vrocks.

Anyways, that's a decent explanation of how to use summon monster. There are also other options available, such as summon dragon, summon djinni, and all sorts of other summon spells which add summoning versatility and power. Check the spell lists on character generators for some great summoning spells. Most of them start with "Summon xxxxx" But summon monster is the core every gm allows it spell. Most other summons are in books many gms disallow.

Next up is placement. Summoning lower level summons to grant your allies flanking buddies is an amazing tactic. From rogues, to fighters to clerics... any melee character benefits from flanking. Aside from flanking though, you want to place your summons in ways to gain as much advantage as possible. Here are some good uses for summons placement:

The wall. Exactly as it sounds. You place your summons between you and the enemy. Best done with large or larger creatures, this forces the enemy to either charge your summons or go around them. This blocks your enemy from charging you and getting that +2 to hit.
The surround. Your allies have forced your enemies into melee. Now it's time to block their retreat. Place the summons behind your enemies to prevent their escape. Good against large numbers of weaker creatures or one really big nasty.
The distraction. Use this to split the enemy force. Throwing a bunch of summons on their flank to draw some of their melee away from your own party to prevent an overwhelming number of attackers from hitting your melee party members.
The squishie slayers. Summon the creatures to get at the guys hanging back. Use this to attack the pesky mage throwing fireballs, or that archer plinking away from behind a fighter screen.
The spread. Spread out your summons to maximize their coverage and prevent them from being shot with area attacks. This method is best for summons that are support types or ranged attackers like the bralani, the lillend or the lantern archon.
The mess. Summon your monsters directly into a large enemy formation. This will force their ranks to fall apart, maybe even halt their advance altogether as they are forced to deal with your summons. Use this method when you are faced with a small army approaching you. Like from behind a keep wall when you are defending.
The block. Surround yourself (or party) with summons to prevent them from getting to you. Good in large scale fights with good ranged attacks amongst your party. I once used a 14th level pathfinder oracle in a mass combat against about 70 demons. I summoned 30ish monsters in that fight, and the block served us quite well. Great against enemies who can teleport.

Each situation will be different, but those seem to be the more common methods of placement I personally have used.

[morkendi]

I make note cards for every monster I can summon. I print them on card stock even though I run my character sheet on the laptop. I bring a few copies of each in case I summon more so I can have a card for each monster on the field. I highlight abilities like healing and such so I can see at a quick glance. On top of each card is the spell needed to summon it. Full stats are listed on card.

[Braininthejar2]

A couple tips for druid.

many animals can grapple, shutting down both casters and melee opponents. Against melee opponents, just a trip can work wonders.

single attack animals add 1.5 STR to that attack - they benefit a lot from haste effects - mass snake swiftness is a great spell to hit your dire wolves with.

thoqquas are dumb, but can be communicated with if you know the language - they can also move at walking speed through solid rock, leaving a red-hot tunnel a foot wide. Properly applied, they can wreck ungodly havoc againsts structures - great for forcing enemies out of fortified positions.

Remember that a unicorn can neutralize poison - you'll soon be immune, but other people aren't, and it is always good to remember about this one.

Earth elementals are slow, but you can send them through the ground before the enemy knows there is a fight. They make great damage sponges.




You guys mentioned improved augment summoning. What book is it from?

[Calthropstu]

I believe improved augment summoning is epic. I could be wrong.

[dantiesilva]

Normally it is an epic only feat, however the third party books I suggested have it earlier, a few more hoops to jump through to get it but well worth it.

[Braininthejar2]

I know it's epic. I don't know which book it comes from.

[dantiesilva]

Summoner feats by Ewan Conradie has it as a non epic feat, though it is 3rd party, besides that I believe it is in the Epic level Handbook off the top of my head, its just past 4am here at the moment though and I rather not be book diving at this moment.

[Mordaedil]

That is a great write-up Calthropstu. I should ask the DM if I prepare some sheets for these summons ahead of time so we can speed up play.