Moving up to level 4, need help picking Lore Bard spells

[MarkVIIIMarc]

In other threads the wise members here have convinced me my Bard's best bet is to stay the course and embrace ranged fighting and her spells at least until level 6.

When I turn in my sheet to the DM going to be:
Strength:9
Dex: 17
Constitution: 13
Intelligence: 9
Wisdom: 13
Charisma 18
AC 15 with Studded Leather

So far I have:
-Cantrips
Dancing Lights
Message
-Level 1 Spells
Cure Wounds
Charm Person
Thunderwave
Faerie Fire
-Level 2 Spells
Phantasmal Force
Shatter

Moving up to level 4 I get to pick another Cantrip, another Level 2 Spell and choose if I wish to trade out a spell.

My thoughts for an added Cantrip is Vicious Mockery and for Level 2 Heat Metal. Heat Metal is situational but if I understand the 2D8 fire damage has no save.

Dancing Lights is probably the Cantrip I use least. I'm an elf so my darkvision usually suffices. We have a Drow also. I'm considering trading it out for Minor Illusion which might be fun or useful.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

My thoughts for an added Cantrip is Vicious Mockery and for Level 2 Heat Metal. Heat Metal is situational but if I understand the 2D8 fire damage has no save.

Heat Metal is a bit complex and different from other spells. They can't resist the fire damage but they still get a saving throw. And that save determines whether or not they try to drop whatever you're heating. If they make their Con save it's their choice. If they don't they have to try to drop it. Which means they stop taking damage, but they've lost their weapon or whatever it is. A lot of foes are so much weaker disarmed that you'd rather they dropped their weapon than continued taking damage.

Plus, if they keep holding/wearing the object they take disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks for 1 round each time they take damage and they can't save to resist that either. So even if they keep their weapon, they take a debuff along with the damage.

It's a little situational, but when you can use it it's almost always extremely strong.

[Cespenar]

Consider Silence as well. It's one of the few methods with which you can block spellcasting. It's not foolproof, what with the few non verbal spells, but a definite advantage.

Also, definitely get Minor Illusion.

[Arnie82]

Dancing Lights is probably the Cantrip I use least. I'm an elf so my darkvision usually suffices. We have a Drow also. I'm considering trading it out for Minor Illusion which might be fun or useful.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Knowing what your party make up is would help.

If your trying to stay at range, you may want to take healing word over cure wounds. It let's you stay at range, and it's only a bonus action.

Thunder wave is another spell that you could look to change out. I'm guessing since you were focusing on range, that thunder wave was your way on getting out of close combat. While it will work a lot of the time, it can still fail. Disengage works almost 100% of the time. Dissonant whisper would be another option to replace it as well. Most close combat monsters will have a better con then wisdom. If you have a paladin, rogue, great weapon user, or some other close combat high damage dealer, will love the opportunity attacks it hands out.

Blindness deafness can be useful if you use your imagination.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Thank you all for the sound advice.

We have a dragonborn monk, rogue and wizard also in our party.

I have some reading to do. Thanks again. Seems the finer points of hownsome spells are used might be the difference.

[Citan]

In other threads the wise members here have convinced me my Bard's best bet is to stay the course and embrace ranged fighting and her spells at least until level 6.

When I turn in my sheet to the DM going to be:
Strength:9
Dex: 17
Constitution: 13
Intelligence: 9
Wisdom: 13
Charisma 18
AC 15 with Studded Leather

So far I have:
-Cantrips
Dancing Lights
Message
-Level 1 Spells
Cure Wounds
Charm Person
Thunderwave
Faerie Fire
-Level 2 Spells
Phantasmal Force
Shatter

Moving up to level 4 I get to pick another Cantrip, another Level 2 Spell and choose if I wish to trade out a spell.

My thoughts for an added Cantrip is Vicious Mockery and for Level 2 Heat Metal. Heat Metal is situational but if I understand the 2D8 fire damage has no save.

Dancing Lights is probably the Cantrip I use least. I'm an elf so my darkvision usually suffices. We have a Drow also. I'm considering trading it out for Minor Illusion which might be fun or useful.

We have a dragonborn monk, rogue and wizard also in our party.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Hi! ;)
First, quick question: how did you manage to get odd in nearly ALL stats? XD Did you choose normal human or something? Conversely, if you are actually building up a character that starts at level 4, it could be a very good option. ^^

Then, on topic: Heat Metal is a GREAT choice.
In any occasion it can be used to weaken a quick opponent, or outright disable a powerful opponent in heavy armor (because it just can't remove it, donning a heavy armor requires dozens of seconds).

But, in your party especially that has a Monk and a Rogue!!!
Disadvantage on ability checks means that the Monk could more easily shove him prone (even more so with the help of an Enlarge from Wizard). Same Wizard could also drop a Web that has a much higher chance to stick throughout the fight. Later you can make the same combo with a more powerful version, Evard's Black Tentacles.
Also, either of your pals could rush in, pick up the weapon that you targeted and run back (or throw it away? DM dependent if you don't want to use an action -or a bonus action for Thief maybe-). Now your opponent is powerless so Rogue risks much less when sticking to him.

Another fun thing to do, that depends on your DM though, would be coordinating with your Rogue pal's Expertise in Sleight of Hands to, instead of removing something, dropping something metallic (like a coin) in the back of an opponent (so that it is difficult for him to get it).
It would obviously require you to Ready the cast, and it would certainly not be acceptable in every situation, but if/when the DMs allow you to try it would make for a grand moment. XD

As for switching up another spell, you chose many great spells. The only one you could *maybe* switch is Charm Person because Wizard could eventually get his hands on it, yet you are probably the party face so it's much better on you.
Still, it could be useful for you to grab Silence (for sneaking or to block a caster, by combining with a Monk shoving/grappling)... Apart from that...
Blindness is great, especially since non-concentration, but Wizard may learn it also. Matter of taste and coordination.
Same with Invisibility (in fact, if you take Silence, and Wizard Invisibility, then you can make some greatness for your Monk or Rogue).
Enhance Ability is a good one (exclusive to Bard, versatile), but only if you feel you are failing checks too often to your tastes (it's not the only benefit, but the main).
Suggestion can be extremely good, but it depends on your craftiness and DM leniency.

So, my view on this is...
1. Heat Metal ASAP.
2. For the second spell, keeping Charm Person is a solid choice if you manage to exploit it. Branching choice:
- if you are extra good with Charm Person, chances are you will create epic story-bending with Suggestion.
- if your party likes to spy, create surprise attacks, or like to coordinate with Monk against casters, take Silence.
- if you just want a solid non-concentration spell to disable (partially) casters and powerful hitters, take Blindness.

Have fun! ;)

[NecroDancer]

The spell invibiltiy can be a life saver. Silence can destroy enemy spellcasters. Suggestion can be hilarious

[Biggstick]

Definitely grab Vicious Mockery at level 4.

Heat Metal is a fantastic pick-up of a spell. It's a situation based spell, but if the conditions can be met, you will pretty much win with this spell.

I'd definitely recommend dropping Cure Wounds for Healing Word. Compare the two spells for a moment.

Cure Wounds: Action to cast, required to be within touch range, 1d8+casting mod, verbal and somatic component.

Healing Word: Bonus action to cast, 60' range, 1d4+casting mod, verbal component.

When you use Healing Word, you still have an action available for your turn, meaning you can throw a Vicious Mockery, or some other action on top of your Healing Word.

[Citan]

Definitely grab Vicious Mockery at level 4.

Heat Metal is a fantastic pick-up of a spell. It's a situation based spell, but if the conditions can be met, you will pretty much win with this spell.

I'd definitely recommend dropping Cure Wounds for Healing Word. Compare the two spells for a moment.

Cure Wounds: Action to cast, required to be within touch range, 1d8+casting mod, verbal and somatic component.

Healing Word: Bonus action to cast, 60' range, 1d4+casting mod, verbal component.

When you use Healing Word, you still have an action available for your turn, meaning you can throw a Vicious Mockery, or some other action on top of your Healing Word.
Hey, right, I missed that OP didn't have those. Was focused on "new" and did not look at "current".

I agree with these suggestions. ;) Especially, for Vicious Mockery, since you picked up two "utility" cantrips. Both are useful and fun, but Vicious Mockery gives you something useful to do in fight, more than just attacking yourself (since you probably don't have great attack).

Soo, for level 4:
Dancing Light > Vicious Mockery
Cure Wounds > Healing Word
Heat Metal
is my definitive suggestion. ;)
Then you can think about everything else once you get level 5... When you get a whole bunch of new great 3rd level spells to choose from... :smallbiggrin:

[agnos]

New Cantrip: Vicious Mockery--low damage but a strong debuff
Spell Exchange: Phantasmal Force --> Heat Metal
New Spell: Blindness/Deafness

You might want to drop Charm Person for Suggestion at some point; I'd trade out Thunderwave or Shatter for Bane too. The Cha save versus 1d4 penalty is well worth it in many cases; long term, Bane is great when you combine it with other spells (Vicious Mockery, Blind, etc.). In the worst, it has super synergy with Cutting Words on the BBEG.
Heat Metal is solid and far better than Phantasmal Image both as a damage spell and as a debuff. Unfortunately it can't always be used, but when it's good it's great. It's a bit less fun, but more effective.
Blind's ability to upcast for multiple targets scales better earlier imo. It gives multiple saves, but giving your allies advantage and enemies disadvantage is huge.

Lore Bard is a "leader" class where you're best making everyone around you super awesome. You want to fill in the party holes, keep the gas tanks off empty, and toss in a bit of nitrous every now and then. You need to think about all the things your abilities do; preventing hits, turning your allies misses into damage, providing Sneak without an ally, etc.

Mechanically, bard fits best with a 1 level cleric dip for armor/shield, Bless, domain ability, extra cantrips, and for "free" Cure Wounds and Healing Word. Your cures are slightly lower due to lower casting stat (Wis); but that lets you trade up your level 1 Bard spells for more versatility in the higher level slots while also letting you off tank some. Your high Dex makes me think intended ASI are: Cha +2, Dex +1 and Con/Wis +1, and Resilient Con/Wis. So you stand to gain much less than 14 Dex builds from the dip; so in theory you could do roughly as well with Druid for shield, extra cantrips, "free" Cure Wounds, Healing Word, and Goodberry (only losing Bless). If you don't dip Cleric (or Druid), then at least exchange Cure Wounds for Healing Word. Bonus action from range to get someone up from 0hp lets them fight while still keeping your standard action for other options.

[urmas]

Invisibility is imo the strongest lvl 2 spell at early levels, at higher levels blindness/deafness takes over (because no concentration).

Dissonant whispers is very strong and gets stronger the more you progress (again, no concentration).
The forced movement part is what really makes the spell, not only do you move the threat further away from you, it also allows nearby allies to make opportunity attacks. It allows also you to make opportunity attacks using a cantrip if you take War Caster.

Those are the only lvl1/lvl2 spells that my Bard never changed until retiring at lvl 19.

[Breaklance]

Personally I found myself using vicious mockery less and less as my DM was throwing more and more enemies at us and also enemies with multi attack

I went with hold person as my level 2 spell and definitely recommend it if your facing a lot of humanoid enemies. Through a situation I ended up in a duel with a minor boss and took him down in 4 rounds (he saved first hold person but not the second and then it was two rounds of attacking before he was dead). The auto crits are just devastating.

[Iolo Morganwg]

My reply comes with the caveat that I only play my lore bard in an AL setting, and my spell choices reflect that; I rarely know who I'll be sitting down with, or what kind of DM fiat will be exercised. I try and play as pure support/face. I'm almost level 10 now, and though my spell attack modifier is +9, I don't have any spells that use it! Maybe I'll pick Eldrith Blast as a magical secret.

At level 2;

Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Vicious Mockery.

First: Faerie Fire, Dissonant Whispers, Healing Word, Tasha's Laughter.

Second: Suggestion, Heat Metal, Silence.

I use Mockery most often paired with Healing Word, or Bardic Inspiration.

Sometimes I'm able to Ready Action cast Dissonant Whispers, and have it go off to provoke some opportunity attacks.

The ones above that require saves are wisdom and dexterity. Keeping Shatter in the list may be a good idea since it adds another save to target.