DM Advice: Extremely high melee damage party

[Wonton]

Hey all. We're playing Pathfinder, the Serpent's Skull AP. My party is currently level 5 and consists of:

Barbarian (Titan Mauler) 5
Monk (Style Master) 3/Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 2
Samurai (Sword Saint, Order of the Flame) 5
Rogue 5 (fights with an Elven Curveblade
Witch (Gravewalker) 5 - basically a Necromancer

If you don't know all those archetypes it's not important. The details of the builds aren't super important - basically, each of them can reliably do 20-30 damage a round if their attacks hit. And their hit bonuses are pretty high, too. +9 at a minimum, going up to +11. So the party is basically 4 characters that deal tons of damage in melee, and a Necromancer that casts the occasional spell, but mainly makes his melee minions attack things.

Obviously, the way to challenge them is more flying/ranged creatures and the like, but I can't do that every encounter. Especially since I'm following an AP, and I don't want rebuild everything from the ground up. Also, a lot of the cool creatures I might want to use (especially because they're going into the jungle) are melee. If I wanted to have them fight a Dire Lion - that's a melee creature, no way around it.

I've been making do so far by basically bumping everything's hit points WAY up (a "minion" for them typically has about 20-30 hit points, a medium enemy 40-50, boss enemies have 80-100 at a minimum), as well as AC. Many CR 4/5 monsters still have ACs as low as 14, which is extremely easy to hit for my party. I typically bump any melee creatures to a minimum of 18. But I'm still struggling. In a fight with a Gray Ooze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes/ooze-gray) yesterday, I had to give it DR 10/bludgeoning AND bump its hp from 50 to 80. That's a ridiculous amount of defense - you could easily consider that a CR 6 or 7 enemy. They annihilated it in 2 rounds.

Just now, I was reading another thread on here that got me a little sad because it was talking about a troll being a "challenge" for a level 4 party. But when I look at the PF troll (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants/troll), I see that despite it's regeneration and all, it only has 16 AC and 63 hp. Against my party, it would most likely die in one round.

So I guess my question is, what would you do in my situation? I'm trying my best to add ranged enemies in as much as I can, but it's not always possible. For example, right now they're in a mine fighting wights - those are melee monsters, and it's tough to conceive of "ranged" undead. Later on, they'll be in the savannah and I plan to have them hunt some animals - lions, dire lions, maybe even a dire tiger (it's CR 8, but... I'm pretty sure they can take it). Again, I can't exactly give a lion a ranged attack.

Any help is appreciated.

[exelsisxax]

Fight on difficult terrain, halving their speed and making full attacks pretty much worthless. Then have the enemies ignore that difficult terrain, so they can move and attack without issue. Crocodiles in a swamp, sharks underwater, that sort of thing.

If you're serious about a challenge, have them fight a bunch of ranged weapon amphibians in a swamp, with hidden giant reptiles scattered around to ambush them as the blunder after the guerilla opponents. The party is going to have a hell of a time of it.

[Gallowglass]

You are making a pretty classic mistake which is sending a single opponent up against a party of five. The answer to your problem is not to bump up that single enemy, its to have them fight multiple enemies at once. Consider, they can dump 1 dire lion in a round, but a pride of 10 will flip the action economy. Even if each dire lion is dropped in one hit or two hits, they will still get some licks in by having more actions in a round than the party.

In addition, complex enemy make up will help. Don't have 10 dire lions. Have 5 dire lions with 2 class leveled bugbear rangers and 3 class leveled goblin archers, at least on of which drinks a potion of levitate on round one and goes up high. Having complex enemies and use of tactics and teamwork will give you the more exciting encounters you are craving.

[Wonton]

Fight on difficult terrain, halving their speed and making full attacks pretty much worthless. Then have the enemies ignore that difficult terrain, so they can move and attack without issue. Crocodiles in a swamp, sharks underwater, that sort of thing.

If you're serious about a challenge, have them fight a bunch of ranged weapon amphibians in a swamp, with hidden giant reptiles scattered around to ambush them as the blunder after the guerilla opponents. The party is going to have a hell of a time of it.

Well, all but the Monk deal this damage with 1 attack, no full attacks required. I mean, they're level 5. And the monk can charge across difficult terrain and through allies (Dragon Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat)) and full attack at the end of a charge (Pummeling Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-charge-combat)), so that's moot anyway.

I like the swamp idea, though. I'll definitely think about making the jungles and swamps more of an impediment later on. The closest they've come to a TPK was when they fought a bunch of enemies in the jungle and couldn't really move or 5-ft step because of difficult terrain. And I've used the underwater thing several times, actually, but I'll try to do more of it whenever I can.


You are making a pretty classic mistake which is sending a single opponent up against a party of five. The answer to your problem is not to bump up that single enemy, its to have them fight multiple enemies at once. Consider, they can dump 1 dire lion in a round, but a pride of 10 will flip the action economy. Even if each dire lion is dropped in one hit or two hits, they will still get some licks in by having more actions in a round than the party.

In addition, complex enemy make up will help. Don't have 10 dire lions. Have 5 dire lions with 2 class leveled bugbear rangers and 3 class leveled goblin archers, at least on of which drinks a potion of levitate on round one and goes up high. Having complex enemies and use of tactics and teamwork will give you the more exciting encounters you are craving.

Yes, I understand this. I do this all the time. But surely, an epic encounter with a single, tough enemy has to be possible somehow, right? The "dragon" fight is a staple of D&D (it's literally in the name :smalltongue:). Hydras, trolls - there are tons of classically challenging enemies that are NOT challenging because they are melee and don't have enough hp to survive more than a round or two. Is there any reasonable way around this?

[Flickerdart]

Yes, I understand this. I do this all the time. But surely, an epic encounter with a single, tough enemy has to be possible somehow, right? The "dragon" fight is a staple of D&D (it's literally in the name :smalltongue:). Hydras, trolls - there are tons of classically challenging enemies that are NOT challenging because they are melee and don't have enough hp to survive more than a round or two. Is there any reasonable way around this?
A troll or hydra is an epic solo monster because it's tough to beat down. If it's not tough to beat down, it's no longer an epic solo monster.

Simply adding HP is a start, but why not just advance it by HD? This also increases the creature's destructive power. The PCs may be less eager to enter melee combat when they realize the creature can hit just as hard as they do. Deny them the ability to make a first strike, using ambush predators or long encounter start distances.

[Eldariel]

If you want a single titanic enemy to truly function as a challenge, it will have to be of a high CR. The general guideline is, a party of 4 level 5 characters is 50/50 vs. a single CR9 creature. You have a party of 5 so the climactic single enemy should most likely be around CR10. Which generally has high numbers and if it has any save-or-X abilities, it will likely kill one or more party members so you'll have to be aware that this is going to happen (don't worry, it's normal and makes the fight all the more epic). In other words, your expectations are askew: a CR5 brute is a match for a single level 5 character. Against 5, it's going to get trashed due to the party taking 5 actions for each of its, and that's to be expected - 5 level 5 actions should be able to kill a CR5 creature on average. Thus, you can include some tricked out enemies, trick monsters or the like where raw force is unlike to work, or you can just raise the CR.

However, you can circumvent this somewhat by playing with the terrain - a single brute in a causeway or tunnel where only two of the party members can enter melee with it would certainly constitute a higher EL vs. this party. It doesn't have to be flight; melee characters the most of all are hampered by terrain not allowing them to get where they want to be. And some large thing knocking them back or down before they get to it (with AoOs or otherwise) is a classical "fight against the giant"-scenario that can also work for allowing the adversary to engage the party on its terms without getting mobbed. But this is quite difficult in D&D; you can also consider templates like Agile.

[Togo]

Fight in darkness
Give the monsters a minor spellcaster as a buffer (e.g. dire lion buffed with barkskin or mage armour)

AC really does make a difference, since high damage is generally through multiple attacks, or power attack. Raising AC by 5 should cut damage per strike from the power attackers by 10hp per hit, and from the many-attacks characters by about 25%.

There are many ways to raise AC. At range, cover is the simplest. Up close, minor spells work wonders, as can minor armour. Give that troll a breastplate, and see what happens. You also need to choose monsters carefully. Feline animals, giants and monstrous humans with no equipment, oozes and corporeal undead, all tend to have lousy AC, which is then made up for by equipment, special defences or d12 hit die. Try using more incorporeal undead, fey, plants and vermin. They're less dangerous, but will last longer. If you feel the need to use low AC opponents, try making sure they at least get an attack before they die. Decent initiative, attacking from ambush, or having a few minor opponents before they get to the more dangerous ones, all change the CR a bit, yes, but also change the flow of the fight. The imporant thing is to make sure they get to attack before they die, or else, yes, all the monsters will just feel the same. If the PCs tend to go first in your game, there's something wrong with the initiative balance.

The other point to make is that you're dealing with a party that have chosen to specialise in dealing damage. CR is based on an average, inexperienced party that doesn't have very well chosen abilities or equipment. Don't be afraid to bump up all the CRs by 2, rather than just arbitrarily giving the monsters more hp. They've chosen to be a high damage party, they should be good at dealing damage, but more effective parties should be facing more dangerous enemies.

Grappling is also useful. Apart from the monk, grappling PCs usually drops the damage output for both monster and PC. A few weak mooks grappling means they have to deal with the weaker creatures first, rather than the big threat.

Also consider spell casting enemies, buffed with defensive spells. An enemy cleric with full plate, mage armour (from a wand or scroll), barkskin, false life (ditto) and so on can be a very tough nut to crack.

[Manyasone]

The general guideline is, a party of 4 level 5 characters is 50/50 vs. a single CR9 creature. You have a party of 5 so the climactic single enemy should most likely be around CR10...... a CR5 brute is a match for a single level 5 character. Against 5, it's going to get trashed due to the party taking 5 actions for each of its, and that's to be expected - 5 level 5 actions should be able to kill a CR5 creature on average.

In his defense, it's a common mistake. According to the rules a CR of 4 higher than APL is beyond Epic. Most of us know this is utter nonsense. APL +4 is a challenging encounter. OP should google 'GM Guide to Challenging Encounters'

[SimonMoon6]

But surely, an epic encounter with a single, tough enemy has to be possible somehow, right?

No.

Not in D&D. At least not 3.x.

Not ever. Not ever. Not EVER.

I mean, not until you get CRs that are ridiculously high to the point that the enemy might TPK the party.

[Flickerdart]

No.

Not in D&D. At least not 3.x.

Not ever. Not ever. Not EVER.

I mean, not until you get CRs that are ridiculously high to the point that the enemy might TPK the party.

Simply picking a higher CR guy tends to result in a fight like this:

Fighter: I swing my sword!
DM: You miss.
Cleric: I cast a spell!
DM: It makes the save.
Wizard: I use a no-save spell!
DM: You fail to beat SR.
Rogue: I use a wand with a no-save no-SR spell!
DM: It is immune.

It's not an epic fight, because the PCs have fallen off the RNG entirely.

[Eldariel]

In his defense, it's a common mistake. According to the rules a CR of 4 higher than APL is beyond Epic. Most of us know this is utter nonsense. APL +4 is a challenging encounter. OP should google 'GM Guide to Challenging Encounters'

This is actually very curious - it seems they know it's bull**** themselves. I found this list for Encounter Design (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering#Table-Encounter-Design) from the SRD and it's funny how their own adventure paths occasionally subvert it. Like, the Tier 1-2 Pathfinder Society scenarios feature a CR4 enemy with preparation & terrain advantage as the final boss a decent percentage of the time; that'd be EL5 encounter and yet they're par de course final encounters with much of the party's resources already depleted. There's a Tier 10-11 encounter at CR15 that I know of as well.


Simply picking a higher CR guy tends to result in a fight like this:

Fighter: I swing my sword!
DM: You miss.
Cleric: I cast a spell!
DM: It makes the save.
Wizard: I use a no-save spell!
DM: You fail to beat SR.
Rogue: I use a wand with a no-save no-SR spell!
DM: It is immune.

It's not an epic fight, because the PCs have fallen off the RNG entirely.

Neh, depends. A level 5 party fighting some melee brute, say a CR10 Giant has a reasonable chance of taking it down. Many higher CR creatures lack a significant number of resistances or immunities and most have exploitable saves. And the ACs really aren't all that; buffed PCs can usually land a decent number of hits. Sure, it's a different matter if the CR is entirely off the rocker but something like a simple Fire Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants/giant-true/giant-fire) is certainly something an ECL 5 party of 5 can beat with its average allotment of resources (perhaps not this party, but an average party featuring at least a Wizard and a Cleric). It has great melee damage and high HP with decent Fort and Will but its Ref is certainly exploitable, its weapon can be attacked (mostly with spells) which lowers its damage output significantly and its AC is decent but within the region a level 5 character can hit, particularly if they're hitting getting bonuses from flanks, high ground, etc.


One thing you might consider: miss chance. That can really, really cut down on melee damage, especially against characters who rely on small numbers of really powerful attacks. Incorporeal creatures work for that, but Blur and Displacement are fairly low level spells that can be applied as buffs to anything. There's also just straightforward concealment. If you're operating in a jungle you can use fog, thick vegetation (many jungles are thick enough that you can't move through them without hacking along with a machete), extensive spiderwebs and more to give enemies concealment.

As an offshot of this, don't forget Potions. Monster treasure can easily contain Potions it can use for combat and many Potionable spells can add a great deal of circumstantial power to a creature. And this is a great way to give enemies item-based bonuses without overloading the party with tons of wealth. Mage Armor, Displacement, Invisibility, Enlarge Person, Reduce Person, Barkskin/Shield of Faith (even +5 is quite affordable in some cases), Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, etc. - of course, this option requires that the creature be intelligent enough and physically capable of using Potions (also applies to Scrolls/Wands/etc. which require a level in an appropriate class, racial casting, or UMD).

[Mechalich]

One thing you might consider: miss chance. That can really, really cut down on melee damage, especially against characters who rely on small numbers of really powerful attacks. Incorporeal creatures work for that, but Blur and Displacement are fairly low level spells that can be applied as buffs to anything. There's also just straightforward concealment. If you're operating in a jungle you can use fog, thick vegetation (many jungles are thick enough that you can't move through them without hacking along with a machete), extensive spiderwebs and more to give enemies concealment.

[denthor]

Some undead have are not always on this plane 50/50 chance to hit.

[Xhosant]

There was an article on WotC(?) not 2 months ago about how to run the Strahd encounter of the eponymous adventure. Long story short, they deal with making the '1 big guy' work better.

Some details I can recall involved smart use of lesser enemies. That could be simple, such as having the Boss engage the party at the tail of a 'vs minions' encounter. Your guys are spread, busy, certainly not on their turn; and THEN the boss shows up to put the hurt on.

Another trick could be to set up a 'lynchpin' situation, where the big bad is the threat, but thanks to co-operation with the smaller ones. Maybe the red dragon has fire-immune, oiled kobolds grapple the team (the dragon puts on the pain, but the kobolds stop the players from fighting it and amplify its breath's results). Maybe every standing minion is an active buff on the boss (say, a Clay Golem surounded by acidic aura enemies is getting healed and empowered by them, even if they're 20 guys with 1 hp each the team will need to chop them down before the golem, or fight a beefed up golem).

Traps and warned mechanics can force your players off the badies. Maybe a fire elemental in the way of a furnance splitting flame every other round, or maybe snow lions in an avalanche (yea, they die too, but more keep showing up; in mechanics, the avalance 'teleports' the lion victims back to their den's exits)

[rrwoods]

The best way to do a "one big guy" encounter is to give the guy mooks. I know, it's not one guy anymore, but you can make it *feel* that way with certain setups. The "truest of the true" dragon handbook has a good example in it (most of the handbook is for players but there's a section for dragon encounters as well).

If you have one big baddie at CR = APL + 2 or 3, and give him a bunch of CR = APL - 1 minions, it can have this "master pulling the strings" feel that emulates a "many vs one" encounter even though it isn't.

Also, spellcasters. If your melee party members can't move or hit or whatever, they can't deal as much damage. You have to be careful here as it's easy to accidentally push the power too far (especially if you're a seasoned optimizer) but done right it can create a cool encounter. I find Beguiler to be easiest on me at design time since I don't have to worry about picking spells, and in addition most of their list is debuff focused.

[John Longarrow]

Toss in some enemies that cause damage just by being there. Swarms or anything with a damaging aura can really mitigate a lot of what a melee centric party can do. Be careful since an unbalanced party may not be able to handle enemies that are highly resistant to HP damage. A relatively low CR swarm that can't be affected by their weapons may just TPK the group.

[lord_khaine]

Some really good recomendations already. I second the suggestion to either increase the number of monsters, or else give the boss some support minions. Its surprising how much even low level spellcasters firering No-Safe spells can do do spice an encounter up.

Alternatively, and thats most likely the option that takes a little more experience, then you can design your own monsters, so that they have more actions, or secondary attacks that uses swift/immidiate actions. But its a lot more work.

[Stealth Marmot]

Creatures with damage reduction.

Best case scenario for them they have to get silvered and cold iron weapons which have reduced damage and probably wont have as big magic bonuses as their main weapons.

Enemy swarms is nice too.

Animated objects can have hardness, making them subject to reduced weapon damage while some alchemist fire will make short work of them.

[Flickerdart]

Animated objects can have hardness, making them subject to reduced weapon damage while some alchemist fire will make short work of them.

I don't see how fire helps at all. "Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. "

[John Longarrow]

Your party could also face off against something pretty easy but really annoying...
8 orcs. Each is in leather with a tower shield and short sword... and 2 alchemist fires.

In a 10' wide corridor.

First rank plants shields, rest behind lob fire on one target. Who ever is either in front or front right.

Party now has to cut through the planted shields to get to the ranged attackers, take fire damage, or fall back.

If they drop the two in front the next two plant shields and repeat.

[CharonsHelper]

Barbarian (Titan Mauler) 5
Monk (Style Master) 3/Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 2
Samurai (Sword Saint, Order of the Flame) 5
Rogue 5 (fights with an Elven Curveblade
Witch (Gravewalker) 5 - basically a Necromancer

If you don't know all those archetypes it's not important. The details of the builds aren't super important - basically, each of them can reliably do 20-30 damage a round if their attacks hit. And their hit bonuses are pretty high, too. +9 at a minimum, going up to +11. So the party is basically 4 characters that deal tons of damage in melee, and a Necromancer that casts the occasional spell, but mainly makes his melee minions attack things.

You have a group of five with four melee combatants and a debuffer - of course they'll do well in melee!

A +11 attack at level 5 is pretty generic if not a bit sub-par (+4 from stat, +5 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 weapon, +1 stat belt makes +12 with ease, dropping to +10 with Power Attack and that doesn't count class extras like rage/weapon training/studied target etc.) and 20-30 damage is pretty minimal (2d6 & 7 from 20 STR, 1 magic, 6 Power Attack makes for an average of 21 without counting crit chances, and then extra from class abilities like rage/challenge/SA/specialization/training etc.)

Basically it sounds like you have a pretty generic martial heavy group. They should be chopping stuff up - that's what martials do.

Even trolls & hydras do not do well solo in 3.x/Pathfinder. They can be the primary foe, but there should be some mooks mixed in. That troll has a half-dozen orcs who do the thinkin' for it and the hydra is owned by a dozen goblins. That dragon isn't dumb enough to attack alone either; he brings along allies to the fight and stays out of melee range when possible.

[Zanos]

Yes, I understand this. I do this all the time. But surely, an epic encounter with a single, tough enemy has to be possible somehow, right? The "dragon" fight is a staple of D&D (it's literally in the name :smalltongue:). Hydras, trolls - there are tons of classically challenging enemies that are NOT challenging because they are melee and don't have enough hp to survive more than a round or two. Is there any reasonable way around this?
It does work with Dragons who are played to their features and intelligence scores. Dragons have a lot of advantages in that they can fly naturally, are beefy, have great saves, get spell resistance, have ranged options, can cast magic, and get to tweak their lairs.

Hydras and Trolls are very "you hit it until you die or it dies", making the encounters very polarizing and not particularly interesting.

[Stealth Marmot]

\Again, I can't exactly give a lion a ranged attack.


Why not? Think like Dr. Evil man!

Sharks can have frikkin laser beams, why can't lion's get rail guns?

[CaPtMalHammer]

I agree with all here. Use your terrain to your advantage. Have some hide in trees or on cliffs out of sight. have pit traps that slow your PC's down. Use a variety of enemies. so beefy minions that can take a hit or two but take away focus from the real threat. Use monsters with blur or miss chances to being hit. A monster that can become invisible and pop up for sneak attack damage can be very hard to deal with. Also look at monsters that have paralyze or crowd control abilities. Some of the toughest fights come from medium or so creatures. Also stat damage is a way of bringing a party back to level as well. a couple of creatures with touch attacks that do stat damage can change the complection of an encounter.

[Bucky]

This looks like a good opportunity for a pits&pikes encounter. Ingredients:

*A battlefield full of 5' wide trenches
*Enemy combat maneuver specialists equipped with reach weapons; some of them should be Large sized to control extra space.
*One or two enemy snipers or other ranged threats


And key tactics:
The snipers position themselves so that the party needs to jump a trench to get to them, or spend significant time going around.

The pikers initially defend the trench, using readied actions and AoOs to intercept anyone that tries to cross, then tripping or bull rushing anyone that makes it over anyway. Some of them can throw javelins if they get impatient.

The snipers retreat when confronted, forcing the party to choose who to engage, and have the Jump ranks to attempt to hurdle a trench.

Conversely, the party can use the trenches for cover as long as they're careful not to let the pikers get into position above them. (be nice and provide ladders or ramps so nobody's trapped unless someone's hitting them as they exit)


Sample composition:
2 Orc Fighter(Lore Warden) 3 (CR 5)
2 Goblin Ranger/Gunslinger 1 (CR 3)
1 Ogre (CR 3)

= total CR 7, plus a favorable terrain bonus to make it a serious encounter.
----
As far as HP boosting goes, it's "fair" to give your boss monsters above average or maximized hit dice, but don't go too far above that.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Your party is tricked out for smashing low to mid AC monsters in melee. You can probably cheese a way for a low to mid AC monster to challenge them in melee if you want. A combination of the following suggestions will probably work:

A. DR the party can't easily beat. If one PC can beat it, that's one thing. If more than one can beat the DR, they'll drop it very quickly.
B. Miss chances (darkness, invisibility, displacement, mirror image). Note that you shouldn't count on the 20% miss chance to do much. Statistically, it will probably result in one of your five PCs missing, but is just as likely to result in none missing and four PCs hitting is still enough to drop most monsters. 50% miss chance or don't bother.
C. Regeneration/etc. This may make a one-round difference on the edge but isn't going to be a big deal. With a party of five PCs who deal around 30 damage per round, the fight won't last long enough for regeneration to be a significant force. Instead, I would go for burst healing. Something like 3.5's Stalwart Pact or a paladin's lay on hands is likely to buy a round or two if the monster survives the first round.
D. Limit PCs' approach. Terrain (difficult terrain/swamp, flying, water, reach (with trip feats, Pin Down, or similar abilities), or narrow constricting corridors/ledges can limit the number of PCs who can attack the monster each round.
For example, in my Red Hand of Doom game, the PCs faced a hydra who was swimming underwater with full cover from their ranged attacks. The problem was that they wanted to get across a narrow, slippery bridge near where the hydra was lairing. So, if they crossed, they would end up in a position where they were balancing while fighting a monster they could only hit with reach weapons and that only a couple of them could get to even with reach weapons. That environment made the hydra a deadly challenge even though it would have been pasted quickly in a straight up fight on a blank battle grid.
E. Increase armor class. You mentioned that the PCs have "high" attack bonuses that are around +11. That's not actually all that good, so pumping ACs to mid twenties should make those attacks much less reliable. Combine that with DR to take the edge off the hits, a miss chance and tactics/terrain that limits the number of PCs able to attack, and the monster should be able to gets quite a few rounds of beat down in before finally succumbing to the PCs attacks.

However, single "boss monster" fights are probably the least interesting kind of battle you can have in D&D/Pathfinder, so you should consider running other kinds of battles too/instead. That way, even if the PCs beat down your minotaur in one round, the battle can serve as a relief/change of pace. "Finally, we got something that plays to our strengths and we pasted it" rather than, "Well, that was anti-climactic."

Some other types of battles to consider:
A. Lots of small monsters combined with a few relatively low level leaders (cavalier, bard, cleric, etc) who can enable them to hit and do damage. "You dealt 30 hit points of damage! OK, the hobgoblin is dead. Now, the other four hobgoblins move into flank you, and hit for X damage."
B. Monsters with ranged attacks and mobility limiting attacks. If that group of 12 hobgoblin soldiers has longbows with rapid shot and tanglefoot bags, the PCs will find that eliminating them takes quite a bit of time and the hobgoblins can deal a lot of damage while the PCs move to them, cut the tanglefoot bags off their legs, and try to chase them down. Mobile monsters like goblin archers on worgs can also evade the PCs for quite a while without letting up on their fire. It may just nickel and dime the PCs, but nickel and dime them for five rounds while staying out of range, and the PCs are in trouble.
C. Other strategies:
1. Weak opponents with AC. multiple lower level opponents with good AC. For example, a CR 1/2 hobgoblin fighter can easily have a 23 AC when standing next to another fighter (chainmail +6, heavy shield +2, dex +3, Shield Wall (teamwork feat)=another +2) and can still have Weapon Focus to help him hit the PCs.
2. Or foes who can ignore a hit for a little while. For example, your stereotypical 14 Con first level orc barbarian may only have 14 hit points (16 when raging), but ferocity means that he will still get a second attack unless you deal 32 hit points to him in one round. Give him Toughness and now he'll charge from 80 feet away, get one attack, and then deal another unless the PCs deal 35 hp in one round. At CR 1/2, you can have a lot of orc barbarians and with their standard falchions or greataxes, they hit like trucks.
3. Higher level support. A few temp HP go a long way. Communal Aid is a relatively low level spell but an extra 10 hp will put the hobgoblins into AC 23 and two rounds to kill and the orcs into "might actually get 3 attacks with ferocity" level.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Yes, I understand this. I do this all the time. But surely, an epic encounter with a single, tough enemy has to be possible somehow, right? The "dragon" fight is a staple of D&D (it's literally in the name :smalltongue:). Hydras, trolls - there are tons of classically challenging enemies that are NOT challenging because they are melee and don't have enough hp to survive more than a round or two. Is there any reasonable way around this?

Spellcasters are the answer. Or at least monsters with active supernatural abilities that target something besides AC and hp. And monsters with defenses other than those, too.

In a pure melee slugfest your party has the upper hand, because that's what they're all build for. You're playing to their strengths, so it's no wonder they dominate.
Introducing BFC, debuffs, illusions and all the other fun things magic does to them will level the playing field. It'll also make encounters more varied and interesting than just two sides beating on each other until only one is left.

As for the "single, tough enemy" encounter, it's doable, but it's not easy. It's hard with 4 players and gets harder with every player (or minion on their side) you add.
You either need defenses vastly above the norm or something to nullify or at least lower the parties action advantage.

The easiest way to do that is mooks. Something to do stuff that hinders the players and to eat up their actions while they deal with it. Anything that grants extra actions works too.
Otherwise a single action per round vs 5 actions per round means that your boss encounter needs to practically one-shot things and be near-impossible to hit to be challenging or it'll just be brushed aside.

[Ualaa]

Since you're running an adventure path, and don't want to massively adjust every encounter... so many of the suggestions in this thread while not wrong, aren't likely what you're looking for (they would be, if you were building your own adventure, and each of the encounters).

I'd basically double the number of bad guys in most encounters.
That doesn't give you a lot more to do, in terms of preparation.
But it does double the action economy of the opposition, and put more things on the board to deal with.

I'm not familiar with the adventure path, so am not sure of the pitfalls to this suggestion.
You can always increase the hit points of the opposition too.

You need a happy medium, where the players are rewarded for making strong build choices.
But where there still is a challenge.
It sounds like there's an even level of optimization within your group - and that makes things easier on you.

I'd say doubling their numbers is a better approach than doubling their hit points.
More actions on their part, will add to the challenge.

It's up to you how you want to scale the experience.
Since it is an adventure path, which assumes they'll be whatever level at whatever point.
I'd suggest normal experience, as if there weren't twice as many things killed.

[Melcar]

If you don't know all those archetypes it's not important. The details of the builds aren't super important - basically, each of them can reliably do 20-30 damage a round if their attacks hit.

Can you please explain how they damage that much? It's seems very high!

[CharonsHelper]

Can you please explain how they damage that much? It's seems very high!

As I explained above - it's really not.

A standard two-handed fighter with a greatsword and a starting 18 STR and using Power Attack will be dealing 2d6+17 (7 STR + 6 Power Attack + 1 magic weapon + 2 weapon specialization + 1 weapon training) every round, which averages 26.4 damage on a hit. A barbarian would be identical when raging only with 3 more from STR instead of weapon spec & training. Other classes can spike a bit higher, such as a samurai using challenge (1d8+21 with an 18-20 crit - which is 29.325 average without counting the +2 to confirm crits) or a rogue getting SA (the above curved blade build could be at 1d10+10+3d6 [SA] without Power Attack averaging 28.325).

[Wonton]

Can you please explain how they damage that much? It's seems very high!

To start with, we're using these house rules (theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/), which basically give everyone Power Attack for free. Pathfinder PA is a -2 for +4 to damage (or +6 with 2H, or +2 with off-hand).

Also, I made the mistake (I see it as a big mistake now, but what's done is done, this was more than 7 months ago now) of giving them fairly generous stats to start with. It was 4d6 drop 1, but each player got to roll 3 or 4 "sets" of 6, and pick one set. And they rolled pretty well. An example of their stats before bonuses is something like 16 18 16 14 14 11. That's equivalent to like a 50-point buy.

Anyway, on to the builds.

Barbarian - Pretty simple, actually. Titan Mauler gets to wield a Large greatsword for 3d6. 24 Raging strength with Power Attack and a +1 weapon means 3d6 + 17
Samurai - 20 Strength as well, Iaijutsu Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/paizo---samurai-archetypes/sword-saint) gives him +3d6 1/day against each enemy. With Power Attack and Samurai Challenge (+5 at base, can scale to +7 and higher with Glorious Challenge), that's 1d8+19+3d6 or so.
Monk - A very well-optimized character. Master of Many Styles allowed him to get Pummeling Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-charge-combat) early, which, when combined with Dragon Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) means he gets to full attack after a charge, and he can charge across difficult terrain AND through allies. Dragon Ferocity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat) bumps his damage (20 Str again) to 1d8+10 and 1d8+7 for a Flurry of Blows. That's before Power Attack, which he hasn't been using and I haven't really decided how to balance yet.
Rogue - Pretty vanilla. Elven Curveblade is a 2-handed finesse weapon, which gives him a very high attack bonus (allowing him to pretty much always Power Attack) while still dealing 1d8 + 10 + 3d6 damage if it's a sneak attack.

The Necromancer isn't really a melee damage powerhouse, but he does have 3-4 minions that can deal about 1d8+3, which adds up, and more importantly, they provide a flank for pretty much everyonein the party.

So, yeah, they've made themselves quite the melee powerhouse. If you think about it, 3 characters of 20 Str, and a 14 Str / 22 Dex Goblin walking around is basically the A-team/Expendables of D&D parties. :smallbiggrin: Each of them is a very powerful warrior, together they're unstoppable.

[exelsisxax]

To start with, we're using these house rules (theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/), which basically give everyone Power Attack for free. Pathfinder PA is a -2 for +4 to damage (or +6 with 2H, or +2 with off-hand).

Also, I made the mistake (I see it as a big mistake now, but what's done is done, this was more than 7 months ago now) of giving them fairly generous stats to start with. It was 4d6 drop 1, but each player got to roll 3 or 4 "sets" of 6, and pick one set. And they rolled pretty well. An example of their stats before bonuses is something like 16 18 16 14 14 11. That's equivalent to like a 50-point buy.

Anyway, on to the builds.

Barbarian - Pretty simple, actually. Titan Mauler gets to wield a Large greatsword for 3d6. 24 Raging strength with Power Attack and a +1 weapon means 3d6 + 17
Samurai - 20 Strength as well, Iaijutsu Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/paizo---samurai-archetypes/sword-saint) gives him +3d6 1/day against each enemy. With Power Attack and Samurai Challenge (+5 at base, can scale to +7 and higher with Glorious Challenge), that's 1d8+19+3d6 or so.
Monk - A very well-optimized character. Master of Many Styles allowed him to get Pummeling Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-charge-combat) early, which, when combined with Dragon Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) means he gets to full attack after a charge, and he can charge across difficult terrain AND through allies. Dragon Ferocity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat) bumps his damage (20 Str again) to 1d8+10 and 1d8+7 for a Flurry of Blows. That's before Power Attack, which he hasn't been using and I haven't really decided how to balance yet.
Rogue - Pretty vanilla. Elven Curveblade is a 2-handed finesse weapon, which gives him a very high attack bonus (allowing him to pretty much always Power Attack) while still dealing 1d8 + 10 + 3d6 damage if it's a sneak attack.

The Necromancer isn't really a melee damage powerhouse, but he does have 3-4 minions that can deal about 1d8+3, which adds up, and more importantly, they provide a flank for pretty much everyonein the party.

So, yeah, they've made themselves quite the melee powerhouse. If you think about it, 3 characters of 20 Str, and a 14 Str / 22 Dex Goblin walking around is basically the A-team/Expendables of D&D parties. :smallbiggrin: Each of them is a very powerful warrior, together they're unstoppable.

These guys are begging to get hit with will-based SoS.

[Wonton]

These guys are begging to get hit with will-based SoS.

The end-boss of Book 1 used Dominate Person on the Barbarian to great effect. :smallbiggrin:

[killem2]

DM here, been playing d&d 3.5 and pathfinder now since 2011 pretty much straight.

Heavy melee parties have specific ways of being counter acted.

1. You can use bigger melee. Action economy be damned if the target fighting them can damn near one shot them. Not the most popular method but it does work. There is always a bigger fish.

2. Chain-of-command method. Grunts and pawns first. Keep them distracted and using up their precious HP, magic items, healing whatever. Send in the supervisors up next. And work your way to the BBEG.

3. Magic. It doesn't have to be flying. Screw with their senses. Throw a confusion down once and a while. Hold Person, Monster, Charm! If you can't mess with their mind move on to #4!

4. Mess with their terrain. Make it greasy, make it icy, make it hot or sludgy. Make it stinky! Make it venomous or deadly! Molds and Fungi are your friends.

5. Split them up. Walls of Force, Ice, Stone, and Iron. Force them to flex that melee power on their own merit. Aoe them into splitting up.

6. Blind them, bomb them, blast them back to the stone age. Sunder what makes them powerful. Make them fight with sticks and stones again. Capture them and strip away their toys.

7. Tucker's Kobold them. Give them easy beatable targets but hundred's and hundred's of them. Make it a stamina run.

[CharonsHelper]

To start with, we're using these house rules (theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/), which basically give everyone Power Attack for free. Pathfinder PA is a -2 for +4 to damage (or +6 with 2H, or +2 with off-hand).

Also, I made the mistake (I see it as a big mistake now, but what's done is done, this was more than 7 months ago now) of giving them fairly generous stats to start with. It was 4d6 drop 1, but each player got to roll 3 or 4 "sets" of 6, and pick one set. And they rolled pretty well. An example of their stats before bonuses is something like 16 18 16 14 14 11. That's equivalent to like a 50-point buy.

Anyway, on to the builds.

Barbarian - Pretty simple, actually. Titan Mauler gets to wield a Large greatsword for 3d6. 24 Raging strength with Power Attack and a +1 weapon means 3d6 + 17
Samurai - 20 Strength as well, Iaijutsu Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/paizo---samurai-archetypes/sword-saint) gives him +3d6 1/day against each enemy. With Power Attack and Samurai Challenge (+5 at base, can scale to +7 and higher with Glorious Challenge), that's 1d8+19+3d6 or so.
Monk - A very well-optimized character. Master of Many Styles allowed him to get Pummeling Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-charge-combat) early, which, when combined with Dragon Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) means he gets to full attack after a charge, and he can charge across difficult terrain AND through allies. Dragon Ferocity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat) bumps his damage (20 Str again) to 1d8+10 and 1d8+7 for a Flurry of Blows. That's before Power Attack, which he hasn't been using and I haven't really decided how to balance yet.
Rogue - Pretty vanilla. Elven Curveblade is a 2-handed finesse weapon, which gives him a very high attack bonus (allowing him to pretty much always Power Attack) while still dealing 1d8 + 10 + 3d6 damage if it's a sneak attack.

The Necromancer isn't really a melee damage powerhouse, but he does have 3-4 minions that can deal about 1d8+3, which adds up, and more importantly, they provide a flank for pretty much everyonein the party.

So, yeah, they've made themselves quite the melee powerhouse. If you think about it, 3 characters of 20 Str, and a 14 Str / 22 Dex Goblin walking around is basically the A-team/Expendables of D&D parties. :smallbiggrin: Each of them is a very powerful warrior, together they're unstoppable.

Master of Many Styles had an errata which nerfed how powerful a dip into it is so that he can't get Pummeling Charge so early.

[Wonton]

Creatures with damage reduction.

Best case scenario for them they have to get silvered and cold iron weapons which have reduced damage and probably wont have as big magic bonuses as their main weapons.

Funny that you say that, the Witch actually took this spell upon leveling up to 5th: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/heart-of-the-metal. He is a true support spellcaster, and this allows them to bypass any metal-based DR with ease.


Since you're running an adventure path, and don't want to massively adjust every encounter... so many of the suggestions in this thread while not wrong, aren't likely what you're looking for (they would be, if you were building your own adventure, and each of the encounters).

I'd basically double the number of bad guys in most encounters.
That doesn't give you a lot more to do, in terms of preparation.
But it does double the action economy of the opposition, and put more things on the board to deal with.

Thanks. Much of the advice in this thread, while solid and definitely true, doesn't actually help because I'm not designing the story from the ground up, and I'm mostly constrained in creature type. "Add spellcasters" isn't the end-all-be-all solution when there's an encounter that involves them fighting some lions, for example.

But pretty much everyone mentioned "add more enemies" as a solution, which will have to be what I do, I guess. That Dire Lion they're hunting will be accompanied by 3 or 4 other lions, probably.


Master of Many Styles had an errata which nerfed how powerful a dip into it is so that he can't get Pummeling Charge so early.

Hm. Pummeling Charge isn't technically a Style feat. I'll be damned. I really should have caught that during character creation. Now I'm wondering if it's better to nerf the character or to let it be, since the build was kinda designed around that.


In his defense, it's a common mistake. According to the rules a CR of 4 higher than APL is beyond Epic. Most of us know this is utter nonsense. APL +4 is a challenging encounter. OP should google 'GM Guide to Challenging Encounters'

That was a very, very interesting read. I always knew the CR system was a lie, since a single level 4 NPC is a CR 4 enemy - obviously a single level 4 enemy will always lose to 4 level 4 PCs. But I never really realized that encounters have to go to CR +4 or +5 just to be an even match. I would have considered a CR 9 encounter excessive before. Now I'm starting to realize that it might be exactly what I need if I want to challenge them. The 'boss fight' I have at the end of the current dungeon doesn't even look to be CR+2 for the 5 of them, using that exp table. I have some ideas for how to bump it up, though. :smallamused:

[Bucky]

But pretty much everyone mentioned "add more enemies" as a solution, which will have to be what I do, I guess. That Dire Lion they're hunting will be accompanied by 3 or 4 other lions, probably.

You should be doing a bit of "add enemies" anyway to make up for the party having a fifth member plus minions.

[Wonton]

You should be doing a bit of "add enemies" anyway to make up for the party having a fifth member plus minions.

I do. Virtually every encounter I run has 50% more enemies than it does in the book.

[John Longarrow]

Anything with FEAR. Really messes with low will melee brutes.

If you have access to Draconomicon pop down to page 192 and look at that tasty anti-melee monster they have. They won't one shot it and its probably going to drop any 5th level character in one round.

[ace rooster]

Remember that tactically savy foes will not play to their opponent's strengths, so don't make getting into melee easy. Once the PCs are in melee the fight is already won*, and the dice rolls are pretty academic. "get into decent melee" is the PC's win condition, so the win condition for the enemies becomes "don't let the PCs get into good melee". Flight certainly works, but ignores that the most obvious plan A is to run away! The withdraw action gets the same distance as a charge, but can go around corners. Readied actions to attack and 5' step away on being attacked can make it difficult for the PCs to make progress if they are not coordinating their attacks.

It is worth remembering that most foes' priority is survival, with killing the PCs secondary. Even if the priority is killing the PCs, charging among them is foolish. The only times you would expect the PCs to be attacked in melee are when they have a target cornered, when the enemy is properly expendable (summons), a particularly desperate stall (preventing them closing down a caster or allowing a sentry to get a message off), or they have managed to isolate a single PC and are able to bring the hurt down relatively safely. The stalling situation is worth considering on it's own, because the objective is very different to the others. Enemies that are stalling don't care if they cannot kill you, so actions like: ready to step away and total defence become effective.

Understanding the objectives of opponents is key, and often there are more complexities than you might think. For example, enemies guarding a door. They are actually guarding the throne room, which is through a few more doors, so they do not have to fight to the death here. When it becomes clear that the PCs are bringing the hurt, they should abandon the defence of this door, and prioritise warning other defenders and surviving. If the PCs do not prevent it, they can end up with a large force of enemies behind them (battered, but angry), and well prepared defenders in front. The PCs are in trouble, despite having taken very little damage in the encounter.

When you read "four gnolls partrolling" in the adventure, take a minute to work out where their priorities lay, and have them behave appropriately. One of the gnolls escaping to his nearby horse could very well be a loss for the PCs, in which case all of them attacking the PCs is a mistake.

*If the PCs don't win under those ideal circumstances, the encounter is not winnable. Only strictly applicable against single targets, because against multiple targets the PCs may be able to win by divide and conquer tactics.

[John Longarrow]

Ace Rooster,

Very nice summation. Each fight needs to be fought between the NPC (with their motivations, their assessment of what should/shouldn't work, their planned actions) and the PCs based on what the NPCs see and would do if they were facing other NPCs.

If every fight is tailored to the party you get some bland fights after a while. Keeping the NPCs ideas in mind is very important for encounters to feel realistic.

[Stealth Marmot]

Heh, funnily enough the group could be foiled by archers and people with tanglefoot bags.

[John Longarrow]

Heh, funnily enough the group could be foiled by archers and people with tanglefoot bags.

halfling archers.... on dire weenerdogs!

[exelsisxax]

Heh, funnily enough the group could be foiled by archers and people with tanglefoot bags.

Bears traps and caltrops would be similarly crippling to the party's "charge and hit them" stratagem.

[Melcar]

As I explained above - it's really not.

A standard two-handed fighter with a greatsword and a starting 18 STR and using Power Attack will be dealing 2d6+17 (7 STR + 6 Power Attack + 1 magic weapon + 2 weapon specialization + 1 weapon training) every round, which averages 26.4 damage on a hit. A barbarian would be identical when raging only with 3 more from STR instead of weapon spec & training. Other classes can spike a bit higher, such as a samurai using challenge (1d8+21 with an 18-20 crit - which is 29.325 average without counting the +2 to confirm crits) or a rogue getting SA (the above curved blade build could be at 1d10+10+3d6 [SA] without Power Attack averaging 28.325).

It was mentioned that they have between +9 and +11 attack. If they take 5 from attack with powerattack they have to have between 14-16 attack bonus. Now very high stats and enchanted weapons can get you there, but It would seem that the DM might just have (at this level) giving too much into "mundanes need nice stuff"...



To start with, we're using these house rules (theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/), which basically give everyone Power Attack for free. Pathfinder PA is a -2 for +4 to damage (or +6 with 2H, or +2 with off-hand).

Also, I made the mistake (I see it as a big mistake now, but what's done is done, this was more than 7 months ago now) of giving them fairly generous stats to start with. It was 4d6 drop 1, but each player got to roll 3 or 4 "sets" of 6, and pick one set. And they rolled pretty well. An example of their stats before bonuses is something like 16 18 16 14 14 11. That's equivalent to like a 50-point buy.

Anyway, on to the builds.

Barbarian - Pretty simple, actually. Titan Mauler gets to wield a Large greatsword for 3d6. 24 Raging strength with Power Attack and a +1 weapon means 3d6 + 17
Samurai - 20 Strength as well, Iaijutsu Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/paizo---samurai-archetypes/sword-saint) gives him +3d6 1/day against each enemy. With Power Attack and Samurai Challenge (+5 at base, can scale to +7 and higher with Glorious Challenge), that's 1d8+19+3d6 or so.
Monk - A very well-optimized character. Master of Many Styles allowed him to get Pummeling Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-charge-combat) early, which, when combined with Dragon Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) means he gets to full attack after a charge, and he can charge across difficult terrain AND through allies. Dragon Ferocity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat) bumps his damage (20 Str again) to 1d8+10 and 1d8+7 for a Flurry of Blows. That's before Power Attack, which he hasn't been using and I haven't really decided how to balance yet.
Rogue - Pretty vanilla. Elven Curveblade is a 2-handed finesse weapon, which gives him a very high attack bonus (allowing him to pretty much always Power Attack) while still dealing 1d8 + 10 + 3d6 damage if it's a sneak attack.

The Necromancer isn't really a melee damage powerhouse, but he does have 3-4 minions that can deal about 1d8+3, which adds up, and more importantly, they provide a flank for pretty much everyonein the party.

So, yeah, they've made themselves quite the melee powerhouse. If you think about it, 3 characters of 20 Str, and a 14 Str / 22 Dex Goblin walking around is basically the A-team/Expendables of D&D parties. :smallbiggrin: Each of them is a very powerful warrior, together they're unstoppable.

How are you getting the Titan Mauler to have +17 with +10 str, +1 weapon and max +5 damage from power attack? And as I can calculate that would give the Mauler +6 (+7 with weapon focus) to attack when going all out with power attack. Is he constantly hitting your goons with +6 or +7 to attack? You mentioned they have +9 - +11 this is with or without calculation of power attack?

Im just curious about whether or not its simply a matter of them culminating at this low level... I once had an optimized summoner in my group, who culminated at level 9. At level 20 Gate would still be better than all his optimization of summon X spells...

[Eldariel]

Im just curious about whether or not its simply a matter of them culminating at this low level... I once had an optimized summoner in my group, who culminated at level 9. At level 20 Gate would still be better than all his optimization of summon X spells...

Of course martials are comparatively at their best on low levels, but these problems aren't a result of the party being ahead of the curve in terms of power. Far as your average parties go, a Barbarian/Rogue/Wizard/Cleric would most likely outperform this party on the same adventure path or any generic game in spite of having 1 less character. The party does precisely what you'd expect for them to do; decent chunks of melee damage and that's about it. Imagine how much more powerful the party would be if any of the martials were swapped out for a Wizard even if the only thing the Wizard ever did was cast Haste on the lot of them - then we think about the added ability to attack enemies' saves, touch AC and to layer defenses (or summon or whatever).

This is basically the low end of a level 5 party power since there are no force multipliers and few indirect attack options available (indeed, the party is awfully specialized and that can bite them in numerous ways, many of which have been covered in this thread), but it's still a party of level 5 characters that are decently competent at what their character does.

[CharonsHelper]

It was mentioned that they have between +9 and +11 attack. If they take 5 from attack with powerattack they have to have between 14-16 attack bonus. Now very high stats and enchanted weapons can get you there, but It would seem that the DM might just have (at this level) giving too much into "mundanes need nice stuff"...


I don't know what you mean. This is about a Pathfinder game per the mechanics mentioned. In Pathfinder, when you have a BAB +5 you always take -2 for Power Attack and, when using a two-handed weapon, you gain +6 damage.

I think you're getting it mixed up with 3.5 mechanics. (though even then you would only need to take a -3 penalty to gain +6 damage with a two-handed weapon)

As to stats - I was just going by a 20pt buy & standard wealth by level (10.5k by level 5 at the start of 5 - I applied 2.35k to the weapon & 4k to the belt). Again - I think you may be getting mixed up with 3.x where (of base races) only half-orcs got a +2 bonus to STR, so a starting STR of 18 was rare.

[killem2]

+1 to the caltrop idea. Granted that is assuming an enemy with some intelligence.

And a choke point.

Speaking of which, fighting in tight (5ft) halls or less is very annoying to melee.

[exelsisxax]

+1 to the caltrop idea. Granted that is assuming an enemy with some intelligence.

And a choke point.

Speaking of which, fighting in tight (5ft) halls or less is very annoying to melee.

A few 90* turns are also pretty hard on anything that likes to charge. Either corridors or some junk on the ground and in the way works.

Really, there's a lot of ways to screw with the party with extremely simple and even benign environmental factors.

Trees. A slope. Boulders. Bushes. Water. Crap gets in the way.

[Seerow]

Others have already given lots of good advice on spicing up encounters within the normal rules. Now don't get me wrong that is how the rules work and there is definitely a place for fights against hordes, or against a powerful enemy with a few supporting minions, or against a ninja leading the party on a chase through terrain they can't handle as well as he can. But since the OP specifically asked about having things like a big climactic dragon encounter that is just one enemy against the party, and holding its own against them, I have a couple suggestions that are effectively homebrew, but I have used to good effect to create those sorts of encounters:


1) Multi-monsters (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=55892).
I found these homebrew NPC classes a while ago that I've had a lot of success with. It basically takes the core tenant of the CR system (adding +2 CR = double the monsters), and makes it into a class. Basically it's a class with poor everything, but has an ability that provides effectively a second character that shares a body with the first, but with a limited action economy (basically the second creature only gains a standard action at first. After a couple extra levels of investment it gets a separate move action it can use as well).

This lets you have things like Chimera whereeach head gets its own separate action, and players attacking a specific head can kill that head first, to knock out particularly annoying/harmful abilities.

It also enables things like Possessions. For example I had a Bear that had been possessed by the spirit of a druid, so the bear got its own actions but the druid was actively casting things every round. The druid lost his HP first, so about halfway through the fight you'd stop dealing with random spells being cast every round. Another example was a former ally infected with a psychic parasite; it had the ability to use psionic powers both to augment the host body and to affect the world, but the players were unaware of the parasite. If they identified it they could target it and take it (a much squishier target) out, saving their ally; if they fail to identify it they have the much harder fight and dealing with the fallout of killing an ally without being sure why he turned.

There's also the option for just real badasses. Say a Dragon who takes his turn, then later in the same turn tosses out a breath weapon, or a spell, or a tail swipe, etc. Or a master swordsman who is badass enough to get a second or even third action each round. As you damage them, they slow down becoming less reactive.

Basically multimonsters give you most of the benefits of a larger group of enemies (action economy, more HP, and the encounter winding down as it proceeds) but while keeping the feeling of a single powerful enemy


2) For just sheer durability, while adding DR is usually good, it inordinately punishes multiattacking characters. While Fast Healing is better about not punishing multiattackers, it instead is just too slow to matter in most combats. So instead, I'm a big fan of temporary HP pools that refresh.

I use a mechanic occasionally in my games where a character gets a temporary pool of HP that refreshes at the start of each round, so instead of taking 10 damage off every attack, you have say 20 damage that gets taken off the start of each player's round. That by itself is usually enough to add some solid durability to an enemy, tune the numbers to wherever is appropriate to your party.

Adding in a few feats/special abilities that modify it can make it more interesting or more fitting for a boss style encounter. (things like Immediate Action to refresh the pool instantly; or increase pool by 50-100% while below half HP; drop the pool for rest of the encounter to remove a status condition; etc).

[Pugwampy]

But when I look at the PF troll, I see that despite it's regeneration and all, it only has 16 AC and 63 hp. Against my party, it would most likely die in one round.


DND is a game for ages 12 and up . That troll 16 AC and 63 hp is probably balanced or challenging for 12 year old snotties , that have no idea of tactics .
I am gonna assume your group is a bunch of adults ? In which case .....

Of course you should double or triple the HP and double or triple the number of monsters and give classes to your monsters .

Glancing at your group of "wargods" , specialized at attacking normal things .
It looks like they will be real suckers for an undead , wizard or devil spank . Your monk has 2 levels in warpriest ? Bad ju ju .

Use 10 ft longspears and Tower shields full cover trick . <full cover really annoys players>

Take down barbarian with calm emotions spell .
Use your Dispell spell
Use protection from Good/ Evil spell <make summons useless>

[killem2]

Traps to consider



Reverse Gravity Trap (CR 1)
Reverse Gravity Trap CR 1
Type magical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 32

EFFECTS
Trigger touch; Reset automatic
Effect 2d6 falling damage to all targets in room plus attack by spikes (atk +5, 1d6 damage).

Note Every square in the room must be disarmed separately.

Each marked 5-foot square on the floor and ceiling covers a pressure plate that activates whenever more than 20 pounds of weight is placed on it. The affected squares trigger a reverse gravity spell that affects the whole room, slamming nonflying creatures into the ceiling for 2d6 points of falling damage (which can be reduced to 1d6 with a DC 15 Acrobatics check). Each creature that falls in this way must also check to see if the spikes deal damage. Every marked square on the ceiling reverses the effect, sending creatures on the ceiling slamming back down to the floor for an equal amount of damage. The pattern of marked squares is the same for floor and ceiling—a creature who is suddenly flung to the ceiling with a reverse gravity spell lands on a safe square, thus preventing an immediate trip back down to the floor.



Footgrabber Punji Pit (CR 12)
Footgrabber Punji Pit CR 12
XP 19,200

Type mechanical; Perception DC 27; Disable Device DC 25

EFFECTS
Trigger location; Reset manual

Effect punji sticks (Atk +15 melee, 1d4+2 spikes for 1d6+1 damage each plus entangle and poison [purple worm poison] ); an entangled creature cannot move from its square (DC 20 Escape Artist check as a full-round action to escape, or DC 20 Strength check as a full-round action to escape, but deals 2d6 additional damage whether check is successful or not); DC 25 Reflex save avoids; multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft.-long by 5-ft.-wide area)


Slimer Chute (CR 4)
Slimer Chute CR 4
XP 1,200

Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20

EFFECTS
Trigger location; Reset manual

Effect Atk +5 melee touch; creature hit is exposed to green slime.


Weakened Floor (CR 13)
Weakened Floor CR 13
XP 25,600

Type mechanical; Perception DC 26; Disable Device DC 26

EFFECTS
Trigger location; Reset none

Effect 40-ft.-deep pit (4d6 falling damage, DC 30 Reflex save avoids); falling debris (Atk +20 melee, 4d6 bludgeoning damage); multiple targets (all targets in a 20-foot-square area)



Breath of Despair Trap (CR 4)
Breath of Despair Trap CR 4
XP 1,200

Source: Pathfinder Adventure Path #34

Any living creatures entering the area trigger this trap—black tendrils of mist appear that sap the strength of any creature they touch. Nonliving creatures (such as constructs or undead) do not set off the trap.

Type magic; Perception DC 28; Disable Device DC 28

EFFECTS
Trigger proximity (deathwatch); Reset automatic (1 hour) Effect spell effect (ray of exhaustion; Atk +5 ranged touch; DC 19 Fortitude partial); multiple targets (four targets)

[sleepyphoenixx]

DND is a game for ages 12 and up . That troll 16 AC and 63 hp is probably balanced or challenging for 12 year old snotties , that have no idea of tactics .
I am gonna assume your group is a bunch of adults ? In which case .....


It's more of a "your fighter only starts with Str 14, or maybe 16, you don't know all the good feats for melee to take, you're fighting sword & board instead of two-handed, you don't take Power Attack" thing instead of "made for 12 year old snotties".
Or even just a "your party has 4 guys, and they're fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric" thing.
That's what the game is (somewhat) balanced for. A party of 4 that covers those archetypes, with a low-mid level of optimization.

People have had a lot of time to dissect the system and find the most efficient options. And then stack all the options on a single character.
And share the whole thing on the internet, so you have even relatively new players playing optimized characters. Probably with a DM who has problems optimizing his encounters in turn.

A character that is optimized for a purpose is really good at that purpose. That shouldn't be surprising.
A whole party optimized for dominating melee combat is really good at dominating in melee combat.
The problems will come when "melee combat" is the thing the BBEGs mooks do to stall while he casts the spells that kill you.
Because a party that one-dimensional is either really good at dealing with a given threat or near helpless, with very little in-between.

[Endarire]

You have 3 main options assuming you're keeping your current party:

-More foes. This means more units to track, but dealing 20 damage to a foe with 1 HP takes the same action as dealing that same damage to a foe with 40. D&D 3.5 really doesn't do 'many PCs against a single epic foe.' This isn't WoW where a party of 10+ can wail on a raid boss with illions of health for 10+ minutes.

-More spells. Where are the enemy spellcasters? Grease and web and glitterdust and... can wreck melee!

-Better tactics used against the party. Others have suggestions. Counter melee with range and spells and terrain!

Speaking of which, I played a 3.5 game with 2 level 3 party members (a Human Rogue1/Wizard2 and a Human Druid3) who had a Wizard8 as a 'sponsor' and traveling companion. The trio (plus a 31 HP wolf animal companion) cleared an area meant for people much higher level. The strat involved the arcanes using fireball (from scrolls and spell slots) and magic missile (from a L9 wand and from spell slots) weaken the area with fireball spells. The area's 'boss' was a raging Ogre Barbarian with 183 max HP and was the deadliest Barbarian I've ever seen used against me. We hampered the indoor area with web and web and glitterdust to stall the Barb, and he was caught briefly, but he made most his important saves and just kept coming! We unloaded all our summon spells, about 9 fireballs, and 5 magic missiles and just barely beat him! Only the animal companion died.

I'm unsure what CR that Ogre was, but it was likely 8 or 9. We had an advantage of surprising the enemy (but with no surprise round) and having a large indoor room with ample space to stall the ogre (maybe 80'). The main concern was not beating the ogre - though we had brief doubts due to how strong it was - but doing so with 0 party member deaths. None of us wanted to risk being attacked by him since one hit probably meant death.

[Soranar]

When in doubt just add kobolds

kobolds have relatively low CR so you can really add a lot of them to an encounter.

They make traps, use tanglefoot bags or have a sorcerer that can cast web

They usually all carry some sort of cheap ranged weapon (sling or light crossbow) and they use terrain in their favor (walls with arrow slits for example)

The same strategy can be used with hordes of undead
bands of goblins
or hobgoblins
or orcs
or humanoids with class levels (I really like spamming rogues since PC are rarely immune to sneak attack)

If you want to kill them all just send a caster with a decent save or suck spell that targets will saves (deep slumber should take 2 of them out of the fight)