Succubus hiding in every town

[Hollysword]

So I've read the replies on some of my other threads, and I've decided to add a 'signature' to the worlds I create. I'm always going to have a couple of succubi living in every town. My question is... what would be a suitable % of the pop to be succubi? Assume the town is used to them. My starting town I made has 200 people inside (just a small town on a mountainside), I'm thinking two succubi would be good (1% of pop, human pop reduced by that amount). My only worry is that on high pop cities, the number of succubi might get quite a bit at 1%, heheh... and these succubi will get their alignments randomized as usual with any NPC, so good AND evil are in :sabine:

(Rolled one for the starting town... the innkeeper is a chaotic good succubus commoner4, sounds nice :smallwink:)

[GilesTheCleric]

You might consider rather than making it a flat % for any given population center, to instead divide things up by apparent population and statistical population. The apparent population is what your players see -- the few NPCs they interact with, and the handfull of NPCs you describe as being on the street when they walk by. To the players, those are the only NPCs that exist, and they will inform the opinions of the PC as to what the rest of the population is like. The statistical population is what you say -- the numbers of people that exist in a town, but only for purposes of magic items, wars, tariffs, and other off-screen GM things. If an NPC is only part of that statistical population, then their only purpose in existing is to potentially change the politics of the town. Will players ever notice that there's a bylaw in a specific town regarding not just age of consent, but means of consent? Probably not. Will they notice that one of the city elders has recently changed his position on limiting inter-species copulation? Not unless the matter is raised by a member of the apparent population.

As a GM, it's nice to know detailed things about your world, but be careful of putting too much effort into things that the players will never interact with. If you want PCs to encounter a specific type of creature, then it's going to be through an NPC they meet personally, which means that they're not just x% of the population, they're eg. the commoner 4 succubus bar owner.

[Esprit15]

Giles has it best. As far as percent of town that is succubi, if you want to give your players a number, "Under one percent of the town, but most have at least one or two."

[Flickerdart]

Suitable for what?

Why are these succubi so thinly distributed throughout a population, anyway? What are the ones who live in these podunk villages doing, when they could live in any metropolis they choose? Until you decide this, no number will make sense.

I propose the following: each settlement has no more than 1 "chief" succubus - the one that "controls" that territory. More powerful succubi bring entire metropolises under their control, while weak ones make do with a hamlet. Various half-fiends and possibly younger succubi may make up the court of these lords. Some succubi would likely travel a lot, and spend no more than a few months in a city, during which time its population of succubi increases slightly. Ultimately, you end up with 1d6 succubi.

[John Longarrow]

Succubi would not need to eat or sleep. They can teleport at will.

Why would any of them have a "Normal" job or stay in a place that is pretty boring? I can see them in a major city where they can enjoy themselves, but why would one EVER stay in a small town? Let alone do what others consider work?

With resist cold 10 they can hang out in the arctic naked and not care. The question isn't so much what a good percentage is but why would they bother? What is their motivation to be anyplace that doesn't cater to their preferences?

Only once you have a good reason for them to be hanging out would you be able to work up a percentage.

[Stealth Marmot]

Suitable for what

I THINK the question is concerning how many would be too many for a population to become suspicious of activity.

But I do have to ask that question, suitable for WHAT?

[thoroughlyS]

Assume the town is used to them.
Succubi have the change shape ability, which is usually how they seduce everybody (combined with detect thoughts and charm monster). Are you saying that the villagers are used to succubi in their natural form? Why are the succubi ever in their natural form?

(Rolled one for the starting town... the innkeeper is a chaotic good succubus commoner4, sounds nice :smallwink:)
Why does the succubus have levels in commoner? She already has everything that those 4 levels would give her.




Suitable for what?

suitable for WHAT?
Thirded. Suitable for what?
Why are succubi -of any alignment- gravitating towards settlements -of any variety- on the Prime?

[Flickerdart]

I THINK the question is concerning how many would be too many for a population to become suspicious of activity.
But then, what is the activity? I got the impression from the OP that the succubi just live there, like elves or dwarves or humans. If there is some master succubus plan, then the answer seems to be "as many as are necessary for the master plan."

[Nifft]

Why does the succubus have levels in commoner? She already has everything that those 4 levels would give her.

Maybe she told Old Man Whitterson that she wanted his assistance plowing her fertile valley, and he proceeded to teach her how to agriculture.

Alternate answer: maybe she is what she eats.

[AMX]

Call me crazy, but my first thought was "150% or more."
Not only is every single "human" really a succubus in disguise, many of these fake identities are shared by multiple succubi.

[Flickerdart]

Call me crazy, but my first thought was "150% or more."
Not only is every single "human" really a succubus in disguise, many of these fake identities are shared by multiple succubi.
For bonus points, the succubi could be brainwashed to forget that they have any other form except the one they turned into. Expect total shock when they accidentally transform anyway!

[Zanos]

But then, what is the activity? I got the impression from the OP that the succubi just live there, like elves or dwarves or humans. If there is some master succubus plan, then the answer seems to be "as many as are necessary for the master plan."
Nah, they're all cool succubi, who don't ever do anything wrong and just like to hang out and smoke some halfling leaf. Except the Evil ones, who don't like their jobs and are sometimes a bit mean.

[Karl Aegis]

Maybe they are a way to give a party a non-standard game over at a random moment, similar to rocks fall, everyone dies. They rescue the damsel from the kidnapper and then sudden game over, everyone was a succubus and you no longer have a party. It's like the coin that's actually a bug that kills you every time you reach into your bag to pay for something, but you don't have to steal from someone to get your game over.

[1000yrWitchFrog]

Nah, they're all cool succubi, who don't ever do anything wrong and just like to hang out and smoke some halfling leaf. Except the Evil ones, who don't like their jobs and are sometimes a bit mean.

Wow I don't understand the hostility here, having some succubi outside the norm in a game won't hurt anyones narrative. Its all for fun.

That aside, I need to figure out how many witchs there are in a given town, it'd be fun! :biggrin:

[John Longarrow]

Wow I don't understand the hostility here, having some succubi outside the norm in a game won't hurt anyones narrative. Its all for fun.


Wouldn't say Hostility.. More confusion.

Like having a world where every town is ruled by a lizard.. Not an intelligent one, mind you, just a garden variety lizard. Most players would be pretty puzzled.

[1000yrWitchFrog]

Wouldn't say Hostility.. More confusion.

Like having a world where every town is ruled by a lizard.. Not an intelligent one, mind you, just a garden variety lizard. Most players would be pretty puzzled.

I mean its his game, he can totally like have anything he wants in it. Though I get the confusing thing, I'd be pretty confused if I saw good succubus walking around everywhere. So yeah I like totally get that.

[Crake]

Honestly, from what the OP seems to be saying, it's like they want to make succubus a standard race that just happens to be a part of the normal population. Remove their fiendishness, any ties to the outer planes (basically make them a native outsider i guess? Kinda like a rakshasa?) and plonk them as part of the standard population. Problem is, as others have pointed out, as they are, succubi have no need for menial tasks, they don't sleep, so they need no shelter, they don't eat, so they don't need food, they have fire and cold resistance 10, so hell, they don't even need clothes to survive in the elements. They have DR10, so most wild animals cant hurt them, and even then, they can teleport to safety at will. They are an arm and leg above the mortal races, which is why they can never integrate into a society like that, because they would have 0 need to.

If you wanted something like this, then perhaps consider toning down the succubus race, making them more in line with a standard race, removing many of their abilities? Making them native outsiders helps with this, as native outsiders need to eat and sleep, so it gives them a drive to work and integrate into society, though with their strong powers, they would be much more inclined to stealing and killing for their necessities, since, compared to a human, they could easily get away with it. Perhaps refluffing the fey'ri planetouched race as succubi? They have enervation which you could fluff as their energy drain, not permanent energy drain, which makes them easier to live with, as long as you can survive taking 1-4 negative levels of course.

[Ualaa]

You could take the 'Iron Heroes' (Monte Cook) approach, and do away with alignment.
That way, most Red Dragons would be evil, but some would be good.
And the reverse would be true of the Gold Dragons too.

Then, not every Succubus would necessarily be Chaotic Evil.

I believe Pathfinder Unchained has optional rules for no alignment as well.



Alternatively, use the Succubus as the base to work from.
And make your own race or subrace or whatever.

I wouldn't use the normal by the book Succubus.
Those are Chaotic and Evil.
CE means sucking up to those who are stronger than you, until you can turn on them to take them out.
It also means pushing around those who are weaker than you, just because you can.
Given their damage reduction, immunities, resistances, gate ability, teleportation, massive Charisma, etc... the Succubus would likely rule the majority of towns they're in.

[ExLibrisMortis]

As per comments above, consider removing their teleporation and ties with the abyss. Witcher-style succubi should be rare, and I like the idea of territories, as Flickerdart wrote.

Succubi are also, by virtue of their racial abilities, capable of fighting most towns head-on (and no, that's not a mistake - they can kill all two hundred inhabitants in melee, given enough time and some cover to hide in). Consider reducing their RHD. Perhaps a 'lesser succubus', with only 2 RHD and proportionally reduced spellcasting prowess. Still bloody dangerous to a first-level warrior, but not nearly as overwhelming.

[John Longarrow]

Ualaa

You almost hit it... With their massive Cha, diplomacy/bluff, and charm at will they'd simply have everyone serve them "Out of the goodness of their heart". No need to fight when everyone wants to be your friend.

[neriractor]

Why does the succubus have levels in commoner? She already has everything that those 4 levels would give her.

She obviously wants chicken infested, still no reason to take more than one level of commoner though :smalltongue:

[Crake]

She obviously wants chicken infested, still no reason to take more than one level of commoner though :smalltongue:

Can't actually take flaws after first level though, so the ECL13 succubus with 1 level of commoner can't even take chicken infested :smalltongue:

[Hollysword]

How about scaled down succubi from Savage Species? They'll want to live with the town until they grow, and they might end up loving the town and just continue doing jobs there.

[Crake]

How about scaled down succubi from Savage Species? They'll want to live with the town until they grow, and they might end up loving the town and just continue doing jobs there.

That's actually not a bad idea, maybe just take the base stats for a succubus from savage species and instead of advancing it by it's monster class just give it PC (or NPC I suppose) class levels? It's still pretty damn good, +2 dex, +6 cha, 60ft darkvision, poison immunity, +8 listen and spot, plus outsider traits. If you don't give them any levels in the class, they don't get any resistances, which means they still need to have shelter, and native outsider means they need to eat and sleep, and also means they don't get the chaotic and evil subtypes, since those aren't base racial traits, they come from the first level of succubus. A pretty simple (though powerful, maybe +1 or 2 LA worth?) race when you present them like that, non-functional wings (they can't normally fly until 3rd level), no ability to shapechange, or use charms, but as you said, the townsfolk are cool with them as they are, and +6 cha makes them pretty likable even without magical charms.

[neriractor]

Can't actually take flaws after first level though, so the ECL13 succubus with 1 level of commoner can't even take chicken infested :smalltongue:

that´s right, I had forgotten about that rule. Guess our hypothetical barkeep wanted all the perks of being a wizard without all those pesky bonus feats, clumsy spellcasting and ability to not get dominated. :smallbiggrin:


How about scaled down succubi from Savage Species? They'll want to live with the town until they grow, and they might end up loving the town and just continue doing jobs there.

Getting better there, now they band in humanoid towns for easy food, and a sort of protection from nastier creatures (there is tons of them), if you are going trough all this trouble have you considered also adding incubus to your towns?

[elonin]

Are you adding them due to monsters in general being more prevalent? I'd probably view them as a plot point if I found that in a game. I'd likely lean (unless there's a direct plot arc) to having them more in metropolis. I do enjoy finding things like the holy order are actually mortals feeding a vampire without knowing or some outsider is the leader of a guild

[Hollysword]

if you are going trough all this trouble have you considered also adding incubus to your towns?

Yeah, I plan on adding some incubi too. I roll for NPC gender randomly, and the innkeeper in my case just happened to roll female. But yes when I refer to succubi, I also include incubi.

Maybe if they are attached to a given thing in the material plane for a long time (say a town they end up loving), they slowly become a native outsider.


Are you adding them due to monsters in general being more prevalent?

I can say I'm a bit obsessed with succubi, specially strongly believing that they can be non-evil. When I played in a party once, my character was a succubus.

(How do you guys make multiple quotes that are linked back to the originals?)

[Nifft]

I can say I'm a bit obsessed with succubi, specially strongly believing that they can be non-evil. When I played in a party once, my character was a succubus. Just be careful about inviting the players into your magical realm.


(How do you guys make multiple quotes that are linked back to the originals?) The little quote-with-a-plus button to the right of the Reply With Quote button.

Hit that on every post you want to quote, then make a reply.

Also don't be afraid to manually cut & paste the [ QUOTE=FOOBZARKGL ; 2350230x42341 ] things.

[neriractor]

I can say I'm a bit obsessed with succubi, specially strongly believing that they can be non-evil. When I played in a party once, my character was a succubus.

(How do you guys make multiple quotes that are linked back to the originals?)

I generally open two different windows with quotes and just coppy/paste one of them into the other, adding the number that links to that post in the process.

[John Longarrow]

I can say I'm a bit obsessed with succubi, specially strongly believing that they can be non-evil. When I played in a party once, my character was a succubus.

Any specific fluff you are obsessed with or is it the game mechanics?

If its fluff, then you may want to look at other base mechanics that you can apply that fluff to without a lot of the issues of having "Book" succubi around.

If its the core mechanics then you may just want to create a new type of outsider that meets your goals/needs.

[Hollysword]

Any specific fluff you are obsessed with or is it the game mechanics?

If its fluff, then you may want to look at other base mechanics that you can apply that fluff to without a lot of the issues of having "Book" succubi around.

If its the core mechanics then you may just want to create a new type of outsider that meets your goals/needs.

It's the fluff, actually. I saw in multiple games, there's always that one succubus who is actually good, and I sympathize with them. I know one that fell in love with a human and actually prayed to the good deity to be transformed into a human so she could be with her loved one, and the prayer was answered.

But in short, as with my other thread regarding 'good evil races', I'm just attracted to those that are of a race normally seen as evil (like vampires and whatnot) but are actually good, and they're trying to fit in. I just want them to know... I understand them, and I accept them.

[Mechalich]

A Succubus is a decently powerful 6 HD monster with the ability to hit significantly above their weight class by taking control of brutish monsters. If 1% of the population is Succubi, you have created a world ruled by succubi and where they represent the majority of all high-level monsters. This is a massive distortion that warps the world away from being D&D to the point that it actually resembles a bizarre Succubi-ruled layer of the Abyss more than anything else. That might make for an interesting Planescape campaign, but it would be a very weird place.

It sounds like what you actually want is a Succubus race, probably something without racial hit dice but having a big charisma bonus and some sort of charm-related power. The Pathfinder Changeling race provides most of what you want mechanically and could easily be re-skinned to be succubus-born as opposed to hag born.

[Hollysword]

A Succubus is a decently powerful 6 HD monster with the ability to hit significantly above their weight class by taking control of brutish monsters. If 1% of the population is Succubi, you have created a world ruled by succubi and where they represent the majority of all high-level monsters. This is a massive distortion that warps the world away from being D&D to the point that it actually resembles a bizarre Succubi-ruled layer of the Abyss more than anything else. That might make for an interesting Planescape campaign, but it would be a very weird place.

It sounds like what you actually want is a Succubus race, probably something without racial hit dice but having a big charisma bonus and some sort of charm-related power. The Pathfinder Changeling race provides most of what you want mechanically and could easily be re-skinned to be succubus-born as opposed to hag born.

I just said in an earlier post that I would be using Savage Species rules to scale down the succubi to levels more normal to the others in town.

[Crake]

But in short, as with my other thread regarding 'good evil races', I'm just attracted to those that are of a race normally seen as evil (like vampires and whatnot) but are actually good, and they're trying to fit in. I just want them to know... I understand them, and I accept them.

Usually those races seen as evil are looked upon in such a light for good reason. In a game like dnd, where good and evil are literally quantifiable properties of a creature, evil creatures can be quite certainly identified as evil, so there's not even any room for doubt.

The main issue with changing about the succubus race is that, in losing it's actual adherance to evil, it would also lose it's association with evil, so you would lose out on that "misunderstood" sense of things, because they would be simply viewed in the same light as any other material plane race, capable of being any alignment.

[John Longarrow]

Rather than having them common, you may want to keep them very rare. If there is one in every town those who are beyond the norm just become another 'good succubi' instead of standing out as an exception. Your also describing, in many ways, how the character Drizzt became popular because he stands out from most Drow because he rejects their ways. Something to keep in mind for what may happen at your gaming table.

For comparison, imagine a game where every town has an archmage or two. Most players will get bored meeting powerful casters since they become a dime a dozen.

[Hollysword]

Rather than having them common, you may want to keep them very rare. If there is one in every town those who are beyond the norm just become another 'good succubi' instead of standing out as an exception. Your also describing, in many ways, how the character Drizzt became popular because he stands out from most Drow because he rejects their ways. Something to keep in mind for what may happen at your gaming table.

For comparison, imagine a game where every town has an archmage or two. Most players will get bored meeting powerful casters since they become a dime a dozen.

These townie succubi NPCs will have to roll for alignment like any other NPC. They're not always going to be good. Some may, but not all. Keep the PCs on their toes.

Those who are evil won't be strong enough to try to dominate the town, so they'll be living in the town like any other evil citizen.

[Crake]

These townie succubi NPCs will have to roll for alignment like any other NPC. They're not always going to be good. Some may, but not all. Keep the PCs on their toes.

Those who are evil won't be strong enough to try to dominate the town, so they'll be living in the town like any other evil citizen.

I think the point is that if you want them to stand out as an exception, you can't have 1/3 succubi being good, otherwise it ceases to be an exception and just becomes normal.

[Hollysword]

I think the point is that if you want them to stand out as an exception, you can't have 1/3 succubi being good, otherwise it ceases to be an exception and just becomes normal.

I'll stick with most (but not all) out of town succubi being the usual evil. They can be the ones that are still demonic minded. The good ones in town are the ones that are the few who are good and try to get along with the people.

[John Longarrow]

Still, your looking at not only a LOT of outsiders hanging around, but with most of them evil PCs will kinda expect them all to be evil. They'll also get pretty paranoid in towns since the evil ones can do a LOT of mischief unless you really tone them down. And if you tone them down, that defeats half of the purpose to have succubi instead of, say, tieflings.

[Hollysword]

Toning them down, at such low levels they lose a lot of their abilities. They might have resistances, but that's about it. I don't see the problem though. Orcs are mostly evil outside towns, and more likely to be good inside towns, so why not succubi, the most human of the demons?

[Zanos]

Toning them down, at such low levels they lose a lot of their abilities. They might have resistances, but that's about it. I don't see the problem though. Orcs are mostly evil outside towns, and more likely to be good inside towns, so why not succubi, the most human of the demons?
Succubi really aren't any more human than any other demon. That is literally their entire trick.

[Tiri]

Well, they look more human. That makes them at least a bit more so, though not meaningfully.

[Crake]

Well, they look more human. That makes them at least a bit more so, though not meaningfully.

The demonomicon entry in dragon 353 talks of how the succubi first came into being. The tanar'ri were the first demons to be born of mortal souls, rather than the pure chaos of the abyss, but they were shaped and twisted by the alien obyriths, which is what makes them so completely foreign to us. Ths succubi however, were the first tanar'ri to actually form on their own, and thus retain the closest thing to "humanity" that people could relate to, not having been twisted into existence by the obyriths. Those first succubi actually quickly ascended to great power, because their ways of thinking were so different to standard demons that they managed to manipulate and convince other demons to serve them, only coming into conflict with each other, until eventually those first succubi wiped each other out, leaving only malcanthet. Point is though, that succubi, while still being wholely irredeemably evil, are much more relatable in terms of their thought process than to, say, a balor, or a vrock.

[danielxcutter]

[QUOTE=Crake;21420564]Usually those races seen as evil are looked upon in such a light for good reason. In a game like dnd, where good and evil are literally quantifiable properties of a creature, evil creatures can be quite certainly identified as evil, so there's not even any room for doubt.QUOTE]

Depends on the setting... in Order of the Stick, goblinoids are Always Evil because the gods needed XP fodder for their clerics, even when they're not. Also, if you have an alignment subtype, you automatically count as that alignment for magical purposes, even if you're not. You do show up as your true alignment as well, though.

[Crake]

Depends on the setting... in Order of the Stick, goblinoids are Always Evil because the gods needed XP fodder for their clerics, even when they're not. Also, if you have an alignment subtype, you automatically count as that alignment for magical purposes, even if you're not. You do show up as your true alignment as well, though.

Yeah, of course it can vary on the setting, I'm just talking about the base assumption of the game. And generally a creature will have the evil subtype for a good reason, such as being literally evil incarnate

[John Longarrow]

Toning them down, at such low levels they lose a lot of their abilities. They might have resistances, but that's about it. I don't see the problem though. Orcs are mostly evil outside towns, and more likely to be good inside towns, so why not succubi, the most human of the demons?

Being common works if your intent is to have your players treat them the same as they would an orc in a city. If you want your players to see them as something other than "Just another group of funny looking people", which was what I' figured you'd want, being common would diminish their impact in game.

It may just be the story teller in me, but I'd prefer to have those encounters with other-worldly being be more memorable.

[danielxcutter]

Being common works if your intent is to have your players treat them the same as they would an orc in a city. If you want your players to see them as something other than "Just another group of funny looking people", which was what I' figured you'd want, being common would diminish their impact in game.

It may just be the story teller in me, but I'd prefer to have those encounters with other-worldly being be more memorable.

True. Subverting a trope tends to be more powerful than simply averting or defying it.

[Vogie]

I think the point is that if you want them to stand out as an exception, you can't have 1/3 succubi being good, otherwise it ceases to be an exception and just becomes normal.

I have to disagree. If you have a very diverse population of various races and no predetermined alignment based on those races, you should have a mix of -cubi in there as well. Sure, there's going to be some that'll be the stereotypical innkeepers, brothel-associates, criminals, et cetera, but the Pathfinder core even states

even the spawn of a succubus can become a saint and the grandchild of a pit fiend an unsuspecting hero.
So, having some -cubi in, say, the city watch, or as travelling salesman, as a mayor, a chain-breaking adventurer a la Daario Naharis, et cetera, would be great. If you want to make it "a thing" you could

Have one or more of the PCs or their background harmed by Succubi or Incubi as part of their "Dark past"
Have an important -cubi NPC be delightfully neutral
Expose the parties initially to mostly evil-aligned -cubi, and subtly encourage what is essentially racism towards them... so upon meeting the good-aligned group, there is a meaningful discussion of what to do in that situation.(similar to the 3rd episode of 2nd Season of Supernatural where the Wayward Sons run into a nest of vampires who only feed on cattle)

Of course, there should be a reason why there are so many -cubi in normal towns, whether that be acceptance of outsiders, some sort of crossroads, interesting geography that gives a benefit to those with even vestigial wings, overarching conspiracy, et cetera

[denthor]

Succubi would not need to eat or sleep. They can teleport at will.

Why would any of them have a "Normal" job or stay in a place that is pretty boring? I can see them in a major city where they can enjoy themselves, but why would one EVER stay in a small town? Let alone do what others consider work?

With resist cold 10 they can hang out in the arctic naked and not care. The question isn't so much what a good percentage is but why would they bother? What is their motivation to be anyplace that doesn't cater to their preferences?

Only once you have a good reason for them to be hanging out would you be able to work up a percentage.

They change the moral view of the town towards sex. They run the secret brothel under the guise of helping battered women. Thus spreading chaos and curuption.

[Flickerdart]

They change the moral view of the town towards sex.

Why would they do that? That's a terrible idea.

The whole point of a succubus is to use mortal lust towards themselves to tempt mortals into evil acts (or lure them to their death). If Joe Commoner can get nookie anywhere, the supply of sex increases and thus its value and usefulness as a temptation diminishes.

[denthor]

Why would they do that? That's a terrible idea.

The whole point of a succubus is to use mortal lust towards themselves to tempt mortals into evil acts (or lure them to their death). If Joe Commoner can get nookie anywhere, the supply of sex increases and thus its value and usefulness as a temptation diminishes.

In most cases Joe commoner would be told to stick to his wife if married. If not married you need to be married. A succubus would have the chaotic view of why wait. Lower the moral standards of Joe prop him up to a position of authority. A succubus "job" is prepare the town in subtle but progressively steady ways to evil snd chaos when the bigger demoney arrives most of the people are in line to receive the benefits.

[Crake]

In most cases Joe commoner would be told to stick to his wife if married. If not married you need to be married. A succubus would have the chaotic view of why wait. Lower the moral standards of Joe prop him up to a position of authority. A succubus "job" is prepare the town in subtle but progressively steady ways to evil snd chaos when the bigger demoney arrives most of the people are in line to receive the benefits.

You're much more describing the MO of a devil, not a demon. Why would this demon work with another demon? Pssht! Partners serve no purpose but to either be backstabbed, or to backstab you, why not just consume all the souls for yourself!

[denthor]

There is a disagreement about evil?

There is only one evil outsider that is capable of putting this in proper perspective


RED FEL
RED FEL
RED FEL
YOU HAVE BEEN SUMMONED FOR YOUR PROFESSIONAL HELP?

:sabine::annoyed:

[Flickerdart]

In most cases Joe commoner would be told to stick to his wife if married. If not married you need to be married. A succubus would have the chaotic view of why wait. Lower the moral standards of Joe prop him up to a position of authority. A succubus "job" is prepare the town in subtle but progressively steady ways to evil snd chaos when the bigger demoney arrives most of the people are in line to receive the benefits.
If you think extramarital sex is evil, your standards are too low.

[denthor]

If you think extramarital sex is evil, your standards are too low.

I find the above to be amusing.

I do not know the age of people on this forum but the phase:


crime of passion


Starts most of the time covering up some sort of sexual crime. Generally the crime of passion is murder or the attempt.

How low is that standard? If it starts with nookie on the side?

[Zanos]

A crime of passion refers to a crime that wasn't premeditated and occurred due to sudden emotional distress, not sex murder.

[denthor]

Real life incident

Woman 1 has an affair with woman 2. Woman 2 does not want husband to know.

Crime of passion woman 1 burns down woman 2 barn

[Crake]

Real life incident

Woman 1 has an affair with woman 2. Woman 2 does not want husband to know.

Crime of passion woman 1 burns down woman 2 barn

That would be pre-meditated, quite the opposite of a crime of passion. A better example would be: Man catches wife in bed with another man, in anger he murders the other man. That would be a crime of passion.

But on the other hand, say for example, a man's brother was murdered 3 years ago. He knows that the murderer had a specific tatoo on his arm, and one day, while walking home, he notices a man with that same tattoo. In his rage he takes out his gun and shoots the man. That's still a crime of passion, but notice now sex or sexual acts were not involved at all? The word passion is not synonymous with sex.

[Dragonexx]

If you want a toned down succubus, just make it into a race.

Succubus
+2 Cha, -2 Wis
Medium
Outsider (Native)
+2 racial bonus to bluff, and diplomacy.
Passion (Su): At will, a succubus can plant a kiss as a standard action, or perform a sexual act with a creature. The creature becomes fatigued for 1 minute of the succubus (round up), and the succubus counts as having eaten a full meal. Against a resisting target, the succubus must make a melee touch attack.
Favored Classes: Beguiler and Sorcerer

[thoroughlyS]

Passion (Su): At will, a succubus can plant a kiss as a standard action, or perform a sexual act with a creature. The creature becomes fatigued for 1 minute of the succubus (round up), and the succubus counts as having eaten a full meal. Against a resisting target, the succubus must make a melee touch attack.
Taking quickie to an art form.

More on-topic, if I now understand correctly: Young succubi use mortal communities on the Prime as a shelter/food source while they grow. Standard practice is to leave as soon as you can, so that you can do demon things out in the great wide world. Some succubi decide to stay in these towns for one reason or another (like the people, like the people, screw with the people, screw with the people, etc.). These succubi are the ones the players will encounter most often. Is that how this is supposed to work? If so, then most of my concern with this process is alleviated.

Because you are using the rules from Savage Species, I want to point out a few things. Firstly, succubi can't have levels in any class other than their racial class until that is finished. This isn't really all that bad however, because levels in succubi are better than most NPC levels, and they can have as many or as few levels in succubus as you want, like a normal NPC. That innkeeper you mentioned earlier? Now she can just be Succubus 4. Of note is the fact that Dire Stirge and the forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21076335&postcount=238) say that a succubus should probably only need LA +2.

I also want to reiterate that succubi are inherently chaotic and evil. By nature. As in, they are made out of mortal souls that were chaotic and evil. So I feel that it should be EXCEEDINGLY RARE for any of these NPCs to be good or lawful.

[Dragonexx]

The standard action is only meant to apply to the kiss, thought that was clear.

Secondly, savage species is garbage, and if you want to create a racial class for succubi, your seriously just better of just homebrewing your own.

Thirdly, I kind of assumed that the lore on succubi was changed, so they're not actually demons (hence why my version doesn't have the [Evil] subtype). So maybe succubi are just spirits of lust, sex and beauty or something, not inherently evil.

EDIT: Or heck, they could just be a variant of tiefling. Say, at some time in the past a large number of malcubi entered the prime and had children with mortals, and now, ages later, there's just a percentage of the population are descended from them. People just call them malcubi for lack of anything better.

[Zanos]

EDIT: Or heck, they could just be a variant of tiefling. Say, at some time in the past a large number of malcubi entered the prime and had children with mortals, and now, ages later, there's just a percentage of the population are descended from them. People just call them malcubi for lack of anything better.
Tieflings already have the flavor of "everyone thinks they're Evil but some of them are misunderstood" that OP is looking for anyway. Switch the stats around to give them a Charisma bonus and call it a day.

[thoroughlyS]

The standard action is only meant to apply to the kiss, thought that was clear.
I figured, I just thought that reading it like that was funnier.

Secondly, savage species is garbage, and if you want to create a racial class for succubi, your seriously just better of just homebrewing your own.
Hollysword mentioned using Savage Species basic succubi, so I figured I'd key them into how that book works. I even suggested the LA that Dire Stirge recommends.


EDIT: Or heck, they could just be a variant of tiefling. Say, at some time in the past a large number of malcubi entered the prime and had children with mortals, and now, ages later, there's just a percentage of the population are descended from them. People just call them malcubi for lack of anything better.Tieflings already have the flavor of "everyone thinks they're Evil but some of them are misunderstood" that OP is looking for anyway. Switch the stats around to give them a Charisma bonus and call it a day.
The fey'ri from forgotten realms are tieflings descended from elves and succubi, and are considered to be decently powerful. If they are used, their stats can be found in Races of Faerun, but the errata for Monsters of Faerun changed their alternate form ability to change shape (any humanoid).

[Crake]

Hollysword mentioned using Savage Species basic succubi, so I figured I'd key them into how that book works. I even suggested the LA that Dire Stirge recommends.

I think the idea was to homebrew the base stats of the succubus into a new race, and ignore the rest of the succubus savage progression. You know, because as a DM you can do whatever you want, rules be damned :smalltongue:


The fey'ri from forgotten realms are tieflings descended from elves and succubi, and are considered to be decently powerful. If they are used, their stats can be found in Races of Faerun, but the errata for Monsters of Faerun changed their alternate form ability to change shape (any humanoid).

I did mention using those, and even the fact that they have enervation to count for the succubus energy drain, but it seems to have been passed over as an idea.

[Red Fel]

There is a disagreement about evil?

There is only one evil outsider that is capable of putting this in proper perspective


RED FEL
RED FEL
RED FEL
YOU HAVE BEEN SUMMONED FOR YOUR PROFESSIONAL HELP?

:sabine::annoyed:

I'm Red Fel?

https://31.media.tumblr.com/7d4b0962e9bf467f9aa474c766ccb771/tumblr_inline_mzvcglvqKA1rcmea6.gif

Looking over this thread... I'm not sure that I see disagreement. There's a discussion about why, if at all, Succubi would live among mortals in a regular capacity, as opposed to a corruption-and-consumption capacity, and whether they would work together.

My personal feelings about Demons aside (short version: they stink on ice), I could see the occasional Evil Outsider defecting and making a life for itself on the Material. I think Demons are probably more likely to do so than Devils, simply because the L in LE sometimes stands for Loyalty. (And sometimes it stands for Lazy, Steve. Get back to stoking the fire pits!) But doing so in significant numbers, or as an organized force? I find that unlikely.

Now, could an individual Succubus have, as a personal goal, to turn a society into more of a "free love" type of culture? Certainly. It's where she feels more comfortable. And CE doesn't mean "incapable of planning," it means "disgusting waste of protoplasm," so she could be aiming for the long con. But the question is this: If this Succubus is willing to alter a town towards her own perspective on sex, why stop there? Why wouldn't her mission be the standard corrupt-and-consume model?

To put it differently, if a Succubus is living amongst the mortals in an innocuous capacity - just building a life, and stuff - she's probably keeping her head down. If she's sticking her neck out to shift everyone in a given direction, why wouldn't she go straight for the "Everybody line up for your CE pills" direction until stopped by wandering adventurers?

That's my question.

Also: Why not talk about Erinyes? Why do we always prefer the CEs? There's an LE for the role, just sayin', and that's a much classier dame.

[Flickerdart]

Also: Why not talk about Erinyes? Why do we always prefer the CEs? There's an LE for the role, just sayin', and that's a much classier dame.

To use a metaphor that's appropriate for a devil, everyone knows Erinyes are second fiddle to Succubi.

[John Longarrow]

Also: Why not talk about Erinyes? Why do we always prefer the CEs? There's an LE for the role, just sayin', and that's a much classier dame.

Because then we'd be talking about my game where I've got them.. And there totally LE!

Course the lead in for my game sounds kinda like how a bad joke would start... "Hey, guess what happens when some nitwit spell caster drags a branch of the river Styx to the prime?"

:belkar:

[thoroughlyS]

"Hey, guess what happens when some nitwit spell caster drags a branch of the river Styx to the prime?"
He gets disappointed that a tributary doesn't involve free food, money, or dead bodies?

[Nifft]

"Hey, guess what happens when some nitwit spell caster drags a branch of the river Styx to the prime?"

He makes all the demon-girls wet?

[John Longarrow]

Nope.. Giant swamp that has Demons and Devils walking onto the Prime to fight it out. Fortunately for most people both sides are too concerned about taking and holding the swamp (so they can directly attack the other) to pay much attention to the mortals around.