Forge Domain Cleric

[DracoKnight]

Several people have said that they feel that the forge cleric is OP. I present this doc (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rkT5gxffl), so that we can work as a community to bring it to standard.

[Douche]

You're OP.

[Lawful Good]

Ehhh...
There was already a thread about why they shouldnt get martials. Maybe just hammers?

The second ability is too strong. Magic weapons at 1st level? For a longer period of time?
Maybe make this the CD option, and Artisan Blessing a core ability.
The rest seems mostly unchanged. I was somewhat disappointed in the forge domain from Wizards. It needs some sort of downtime ribbon ability.

[DanyBallon]

As I already stated elsewhere, you can simply nerf Blessing of the Forge, by limiting the duration of the enchantment to 8 hours. This way you cover pretty much the traditionnal adventuring day, but still open up options for a few encounters where the enchantment wore off.

As for martial weapon proficiency, Forge cleric shouldn't get it, there's no need nor no reason for it. Blacksmith uses hammer which is a simple weapon...

Finaly I believe the main reason why Forge domain is seen as OP, is that if a character optimize its AC, he can reach incredibly high number by combining heavy armor (14-18), Blessing of the Forge (+1), Soul of the Forge (+1), a shield (+2), the shield spell (+5), and a possible dip for Defense fighting style (+1)

[Giant2005]

I don't get it... Is this some kind of passive-aggressive thing?
The only change I can see is that you buffed them by giving them Martial Weapon Proficiency. Buffing something seems like a strange way to react to it being OP.

[MinotaurWarrior]

As I already stated elsewhere, you can simply nerf Blessing of the Forge, by limiting the duration of the enchantment to 8 hours. This way you cover pretty much the traditionnal adventuring day, but still open up options for a few encounters where the enchantment wore off.

As for martial weapon proficiency, Forge cleric shouldn't get it, there's no need nor no reason for it. Blacksmith uses hammer which is a simple weapon...

Finaly I believe the main reason why Forge domain is seen as OP, is that if a character optimize its AC, he can reach incredibly high number by combining heavy armor (14-18), Blessing of the Forge (+1), Soul of the Forge (+1), a shield (+2), the shield spell (+5), and a possible dip for Defense fighting style (+1)

The Dipping power is bad, but what really makes people think it's OP is that it has high level abilities that are pretty much just better than other options (e.g. the capstone is war + more).

I think the answer is to delay some features, add contingencies to others (e.g. make the level 6 and 17 features key off of a shield or other disarmable item), and nerf the spell list.

[DracoKnight]

I don't get it... Is this some kind of passive-aggressive thing?
The only change I can see is that you buffed them by giving them Martial Weapon Proficiency. Buffing something seems like a strange way to react to it being OP.

I made my initial change - this thread is to implement community changes.

[MrStabby]

Maybe stick it in the homebrew forum?

[DanyBallon]

I don't get it... Is this some kind of passive-aggressive thing?
The only change I can see is that you buffed them by giving them Martial Weapon Proficiency. Buffing something seems like a strange way to react to it being OP.

DK also modify Blessing of the Forge to work only with weapons...

[DanyBallon]

The Dipping power is bad, but what really makes people think it's OP is that it has high level abilities that are pretty much just better than other options (e.g. the capstone is war + more).

I think the answer is to delay some features, add contingencies to others (e.g. make the level 6 and 17 features key off of a shield or other disarmable item), and nerf the spell list.

The capstone could be reworked, but it's not effectively the same as War, as there is a restriction to heavy armor, but I must admit that by 17th level a Forge cleric, would definately wear a heavy weapon, unless they are caught up in the middle of the night without their armor on. On the other hand War cleric always benefits from there Avatar of Battle feature.

[MinotaurWarrior]

The capstone could be reworked, but it's not effectively the same as War, as there is a restriction to heavy armor, but I must admit that by 17th level a Forge cleric, would definately wear a heavy weapon, unless they are caught up in the middle of the night without their armor on. On the other hand War cleric always benefits from there Avatar of Battle feature.

By level 17, you have about a half dozen different ways to guarantee that you're not getting caught with your armor off. I appreciate that there's technically a limitation, but I think the Forge cleric should have a limitation that actually comes up and is interactive.

[Herobizkit]

I propose the Forge guy to be able to 'enhance' weapons with his choice of non-magical +1 to hit OR to damage until his next rest.

I recall reading that the UA aims for OP so they can pare down later; it's easier to remove OP options than add new options after the fact. :)

[Spellbreaker26]

I agree that they should have martial weapons. It's the rest of it that should get toned down. They should also get proficiency with smith's tools.

Their first level rule should be replaced with this one I think:
Blessings of the Forge:
As a sign of your devotion, you can create minor magical items. One of your starting weapons is a magical weapon (+0). If you ever lose it or it gets destroyed in some manner, you may forge another one with regular means or with your channel divinity at level 2, but may not have more than one existing.
This ability upgrades as you level up in the Forge domain:
Level 1
1 x +0

Level 4
1 X +1

Level 8
2 X +1

Level 12
2 X +1
1 X +2

Level 16
3 X +2

Level 20
2 X +2
1 X +3
(You may converse with your DM if you wish to apply an affect other than +1/+2/+3, or if you wish to enchant armour or miscellaneous items)
What do you guys think? It just applies to weapons, not armour (at least on the face of it).

[DanyBallon]

I agree that they should have martial weapons. It's the rest of it that should get toned down. They should also get proficiency with smith's tools.

Their first level rule should be replaced with this one I think:
Blessings of the Forge:
As a sign of your devotion, you can create minor magical items. One of your starting weapons is a magical weapon (+0). If you ever lose it or it gets destroyed in some manner, you may forge another one with regular means or with your channel divinity at level 2, but may not have more than one existing.
This ability upgrades as you level up in the Forge domain:
Level 1
1 x +0

Level 4
1 X +1

Level 8
2 X +1

Level 12
2 X +1
1 X +2

Level 16
3 X +2

Level 20
2 X +2
1 X +3
(You may converse with your DM if you wish to apply an affect other than +1/+2/+3, or if you wish to enchant armour or miscellaneous items)
What do you guys think? It just applies to weapons, not armour (at least on the face of it).

Why martial weapons? There's no need, and it set them appart from War.

Also, I think your modification to Blessing of the Forge is much more an upgrade than a nerf... Worse, the way I read it, it loose the versatility to be used on items other than a weapon you own. At least the original version had you to make a choice about which one of you or your comrades will benefits from a weapon or armor enchantment...

[Spellbreaker26]

Why martial weapons? There's no need, and it set them appart from War.

Also, I think your modification to Blessing of the Forge is much more an upgrade than a nerf... Worse, the way I read it, it loose the versatility to be used on items other than a weapon you own. At least the original version had you to make a choice about which one of you or your comrades will benefits from a weapon or armor enchantment...

I just feel like a forge cleric would learn to wield the weapons they make. My change would A) Prevent it being used for a level one dip as much B) make it more versatile and open it up to the GM and C) put the emphasis on the Cleric forging the weapons, not just praying over them. Remember, you can still give that enchanted axe to your comrade, just now it's one that you made and put effort into, not one you just touched.

[DanyBallon]

I just feel like a forge cleric would learn to wield the weapons they make. My change would A) Prevent it being used for a level one dip as much B) make it more versatile and open it up to the GM and C) put the emphasis on the Cleric forging the weapons, not just praying over them. Remember, you can still give that enchanted axe to your comrade, just now it's one that you made and put effort into, not one you just touched.

Except that blacksmith are not necessarcly proficient in the use of every weapon or armor they makes. Also while preventing one level dip, you provide a far more bigger boost in the form of a permanent magic item. I don't see any versatility except for allowing more permanant magic item overflowing your party. But I'll agree with you that your modifications focus more on the item creation aspect of the forge, that the original BoF.

[BillyBobShorton]

Yeah that cleric is too powerful. Almost to the point of being comical. Magic weapon forever at level 1? Really??! C'mon...

[GandalfTheWhite]

Yeah that cleric is too powerful. Almost to the point of being comical. Magic weapon forever at level 1? Really??! C'mon...

Yeah, you do realize that DracoKnight just took the Unearthed Arcana Forge Cleric and put it in a new doc for the community to make balancing suggestions, right? :smalltongue:

[Blue Lantern]

I would make Blessing of the forge a Channel Domain ability, and change as to give half proficiency bonus on damage, if weapon, or damage reduction, if armor, cumulative with magic items. And either ending it after a short rest or have it last a number of hours equal to the Wisdom modifier.

[LudicSavant]

Much is made of the Forge Cleric's strengths in this thread, but let's not forget its weaknesses:

- Their low-level damage output doesn't even come close to competing with the War or Tempest cleric (both of whom can one-shot the average hp for enemies of CR=their level with a proper build, at the very least for the first few levels of the game).

- Their Divine Strikes (and many of their domain spells) deal fire damage, which is arguably the second worst damage type. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379165-MM-Resistances-Immunities-Vulnerabilities-and-Damage) By contrast, War gets damage type = weapon damage type (magic weapons are resisted by only one creature, the demilich), Tempest gets Thunder (rarely resisted), Life and Protection get Radiant (almost as good as Force damage), Death and Grave get Necrotic (rarely resisted, and the things that do resist it are weak to your other abilities), and Nature gets to choose from three different damage types at will (which works out to being good against most everything). In other words, every domain save Trickery gets a significantly better damage type.

- Their Blessing of the Forge goes obsolete rather quickly if people are getting access to magic items at the default loot rate. Those who would benefit most from the Blessing of the Forge are going to be the first to get their own magic gear (which cannot be augmented by the Blessing). This basically scales down over time from "get an extra 101-500 gp worth of gear, which you can shift around" to "inconsequential."

- While flavorful and fun, their Channel Divinity probably isn't going to help much in combats compared to fight-swinging abilities like "Get +10 to hit, after you see the roll," "Maximize Spell Damage," or "Pick up the entire party off the floor."

- Their Domain spell list really fights for Concentration slots. Searing Smite, Heat Metal, Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Protection from Energy, Wall of Fire, and Animate Objects all compete for your precious Concentration... something the Cleric already has tons of great options for. There's only one non-concentration combat option on there: Shield. Thankfully Shield is a nice thing; it (combined with their other features) lets them get burst AC comparable to an EK or Sorcadin.

This is, of course, not to say that the Forge Cleric isn't a strong archetype. However, I think it would be a shame if one of the more flavorful and distinctive options to come out of Unearthed Arcana got nerfed into irrelevance by a few knee-jerk reactions. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21420547&postcount=17)

[MinotaurWarrior]

Much is made of the Forge Cleric's strengths in this thread, but let's not forget its weaknesses:

- Their low-level damage output doesn't even come close to competing with the War or Tempest cleric (both of whom can one-shot the average hp for enemies of CR=their level with a proper build, at the very least for the first few levels of the game).

- Their Divine Strikes (and many of their domain spells) deal fire damage, which is arguably the second worst damage type. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379165-MM-Resistances-Immunities-Vulnerabilities-and-Damage) By contrast, War gets damage type = weapon damage type (magic weapons are resisted by only one creature, the demilich), Tempest gets Thunder (rarely resisted), Life and Protection get Radiant (almost as good as Force damage), Death and Grave get Necrotic (rarely resisted, and the things that do resist it are weak to your other abilities), and Nature gets to choose from three different damage types at will (which works out to being good against most everything). In other words, every domain save Trickery gets a significantly better damage type.

- Their Blessing of the Forge goes obsolete rather quickly if people are getting access to magic items at the default loot rate. Those who would benefit most from the Blessing of the Forge are going to be the first to get their own magic gear (which cannot be augmented by the Blessing). This basically scales down over time from "get an extra 101-500 gp worth of gear, which you can shift around" to "inconsequential."

- While flavorful and fun, their Channel Divinity probably isn't going to help much in combats compared to fight-swinging abilities like "Get +10 to hit, after you see the roll," "Maximize Spell Damage," or "Pick up the entire party off the floor."

- Their Domain spell list really fights for Concentration slots. Searing Smite, Heat Metal, Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Protection from Energy, Wall of Fire, and Animate Objects all compete for your precious Concentration... something the Cleric already has tons of great options for. There's only one non-concentration combat option on there: Shield. Thankfully Shield is a nice thing; it (combined with their other features) lets them get burst AC comparable to an EK or Sorcadin.

This is not to say that the Forge Cleric isn't a strong archetype. However, I think it would be a shame if one of the more flavorful and distinctive options to come out of Unearthed Arcana got nerfed into irrelevance by a few knee-jerk reactions.

The problem is that none of those weaknesses actually matter when you have this strength. You're untouchable for much of the early game.

You're right that most features aren't op. Flip the channel and the blessing, change shield to pretty much any other spell (I like unseen servant) and the class is golden. Manufacturing is straightforwardly useful at level 1, and 21/23 AC (SoF) is still outstanding at level 2. Then if you really want that insane AC, you can MC like everyone else.

[LudicSavant]

The problem is that none of those weaknesses actually matter when you have this strength. You're untouchable for much of the early game.

This strikes me as an exaggeration. AC doesn't help your saving throws, it doesn't stop you from getting locked down, it doesn't do any of that. Additionally, Shield and Shield of Faith are burst AC, and cut into very limited slots at low level (you're only getting 2, and they're competing with options like Bless or Guiding Bolt).

By the time they start getting resource-efficient, the alternative combinations that do the same thing have come online.


Then if you really want that insane AC, you can MC like everyone else.

Uhm, what? Other characters can already get that sort of AC. An Eldritch Knight doesn't have to multiclass to get a 27 AC. She can just do that because that's what Eldritch Knights do.

Bladesingers and Sorcadins commonly get similarly high ACs. Other characters often get similarly strong defenses via means other than AC.

It's strong, but acting like it makes you untouchable or like nobody else can do it is an exaggeration.

[Spellbreaker26]

Much is made of the Forge Cleric's strengths in this thread, but let's not forget its weaknesses:

- Their low-level damage output doesn't even come close to competing with the War or Tempest cleric (both of whom can one-shot the average hp for enemies of CR=their level with a proper build, at the very least for the first few levels of the game).

- Their Divine Strikes (and many of their domain spells) deal fire damage, which is arguably the second worst damage type. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379165-MM-Resistances-Immunities-Vulnerabilities-and-Damage) By contrast, War gets damage type = weapon damage type (magic weapons are resisted by only one creature, the demilich), Tempest gets Thunder (rarely resisted), Life and Protection get Radiant (almost as good as Force damage), Death and Grave get Necrotic (rarely resisted, and the things that do resist it are weak to your other abilities), and Nature gets to choose from three different damage types at will (which works out to being good against most everything). In other words, every domain save Trickery gets a significantly better damage type.

- Their Blessing of the Forge goes obsolete rather quickly if people are getting access to magic items at the default loot rate. Those who would benefit most from the Blessing of the Forge are going to be the first to get their own magic gear (which cannot be augmented by the Blessing). This basically scales down over time from "get an extra 101-500 gp worth of gear, which you can shift around" to "inconsequential."

- While flavorful and fun, their Channel Divinity probably isn't going to help much in combats compared to fight-swinging abilities like "Get +10 to hit, after you see the roll," "Maximize Spell Damage," or "Pick up the entire party off the floor."

- Their Domain spell list really fights for Concentration slots. Searing Smite, Heat Metal, Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Protection from Energy, Wall of Fire, and Animate Objects all compete for your precious Concentration... something the Cleric already has tons of great options for. There's only one non-concentration combat option on there: Shield. Thankfully Shield is a nice thing; it (combined with their other features) lets them get burst AC comparable to an EK or Sorcadin.
[/URL]

War is a very frontloaded domain, but clerics are frontloaded in general; see inflict wounds. War's War Priest Ability scales awfully; it starts off wonderful but at about the time you get access to spiritual weapon it gets a lot less useful.

No argument about their divine strikes. Fire is a very weak element. But for a lot of enemies, the element doesn't matter.

I'd be suprised if default loot rate is enough to give +1 armour and shields to all the party. Blessing of the Forge is going to be relevant for a very long time and is great at low levels.

Their channel divinity is more of a utility ability than people realize, at least in its current state. Think fullmetal alchemist style transmutation. It isn't stupid but it isn't great either.

All domain spell lists have a couple clunkers and almost all of them have tons of concentration spells. The important ones are the good ones outside of the cleric spell list: Shield and Animate Objects.

[LudicSavant]

War is a very frontloaded domain, but clerics are frontloaded in general; see inflict wounds. War's War Priest Ability scales awfully; it starts off wonderful but at about the time you get access to spiritual weapon it gets a lot less useful.

No argument about their divine strikes. Fire is a very weak element. But for a lot of enemies, the element doesn't matter.

<snip>

Their channel divinity is more of a utility ability than people realize, at least in its current state. Think fullmetal alchemist style transmutation. It isn't stupid but it isn't great either.

All domain spell lists have a couple clunkers and almost all of them have tons of concentration spells. The important ones are the good ones outside of the cleric spell list: Shield and Animate Objects.

I agree with all of these points! :smallsmile:


I'd be suprised if default loot rate is enough to give +1 armour and shields to all the party. Blessing of the Forge is going to be relevant for a very long time and is great at low levels.

Prepare to be surprised.

Blessing of the Forge doesn't give people +1 shields. It gives them +1 weapons or +1 armor.

There's a fair chance not everyone in the party cares about magic weapons or armor... but for those who do, it's often a priority purchase. It costs 101-500gp according to the guidelines we're given.

Even if you just look at the starting wealth table (which is lower wealth than the actual loot tables), a character should have no trouble affording one or more Uncommon items by level 5. By level 10, the worst case guideline (DMG starting, Low Magic, 500gp per Uncommon) of the lot will let you grab 10 Uncommon magic items per character. Better case guidelines result in vastly more (~200 Uncommon magic items per character, using these figures (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?402507-Deconstructing-5e-Typical-Wealth-by-Level) + the 101gp guideline).

As such, it is not at all an unreasonable expectation that characters who care about magic weapons and armor will have some variety of them by mid-levels.

[JNAProductions]

I don't know the Forge domain at all. So I'm viewing this with virgin eyes.

Anyway!

The Domain spells are REALLY good. I might tone those down a little.

Bonus Proficiencies are fine. Gish in a can.

Blessing of the Forge seems fine-comparable to the other 1st level features. Also lets you buff a friend, which is nice!

CD: Artisan's Blessing is perhaps a bit weak. It has no combat uses-and since you need an original, not even a ton of out of combat uses.

Soul of the Forge's first two points are fine. For the third, though, I'd make it a limited-use ability against anything you hit, not just a passive against constructs.

Divine Strike is totally fine.

Saint of Forge and Fire is a bit much. I would not give immunity to fire-I don't like handing immunities to players, since it either never comes up (the DM plans around it) or is overpowering. Other than that, is fine-perhaps even a bit weak, since War Cleric gets a similar thing without restrictions.

[Spellbreaker26]

I agree with all of these points! :smallsmile:




Even if you just look at the starting wealth table (which is lower wealth than the actual loot tables), a character should have no trouble affording one or more Uncommon items by level 5. By level 10, the worst case guideline (DMG starting, Low Magic, 500gp per Uncommon) of the lot will let you grab 10 Uncommon magic items per character. Better case guidelines result in vastly more (~200 Uncommon magic items per character, using these figures (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?402507-Deconstructing-5e-Typical-Wealth-by-Level) + the 101gp guideline).

As such, it is not at all an unreasonable expectation that characters who care about magic weapons and armor will have some variety of them by mid-levels.

I thought shields were covered under armour, but even if not it's still really good.

DMs are going to have different ideas on what magic weaponry the players are going to get access to. There's no magic item shop like in 3.5e. A DM is well within rights to only give very few magic items, and most of those are going to be weapons. Magic armour is going to be rare in most campaigns, since players don't want it as much as they want weaponry.

I guess it's going to be a very DM dependent ability (which is problematic for a whole different set of reasons) but there's no guarantee that you'll get a magic weapon for a while in most campaigns I reckon.

[JNAProductions]

Having a +1 Magic Item will not break the game. It's a useful buff, but it's hardly shattering the balance.

[MinotaurWarrior]

This strikes me as an exaggeration. AC doesn't help your saving throws, it doesn't stop you from getting locked down, it doesn't do any of that. Additionally, Shield and Shield of Faith are burst AC, and cut into very limited slots at low level (you're only getting 2, and they're competing with options like Bless or Guiding Bolt).

I'm AFB, but what's even the lowest CR spellcaster? Most low level encounters primarily target AC. And being locked down doesn't matter immensely when your sticky foe can't hit you.

Untouchable is an exaggeration before laying hands on plate (which doesn't happen on any particular schedule), and then it needs to be translated slightly into "AC need 20s"


Uhm, what? Other characters can already get that sort of AC. An Eldritch Knight doesn't have to multiclass to get a 27 AC. She can just do that because that's what Eldritch Knights do.

Bladesingers and Sorcadins commonly get similarly high ACs. Other characters often get similarly strong defenses via means other than AC.

It's strong, but acting like this is some crazy thing that nobody else gets and can't be beaten by pretty conventional tactics just seems silly.

As-is, what the forge cleric gets at level 1 is better than what the EK gets at level 3. And "similar ACs" can be very different in practice, because (1) bounded accuracy (2) every point increases mean attacks survived quadratically.

[LudicSavant]

I thought shields were covered under armour Blessing of the Forge specifically says "a suit of armor." So I suppose it depends on if you can convince your DM that a shield is a suit.

[DracoKnight]

The Domain spells are REALLY good. I might tone those down a little.

Seems to be the general consensus. This isn't an original work, but from an Unearthed Arcana...I'm going to modify it eventually, but we've got other projects going right now :smallwink: :smalltongue:

[LudicSavant]

What if it had Absorb Elements (from EE) instead of Shield?

[GorogIrongut]

What if it had Absorb Elements (from EE) instead of Shield?

Interestingly, I find that very flavourful. I still think that you should get rid of searing smite for Identify.

[LudicSavant]

Interestingly, I find that very flavourful.

It fills a similar role (a reaction that lets the Forge Cleric burst tank), really fits the flavor (arguably better than Shield does), and is a good spell... but diversifies their defensive portfolio rather than stacking their AC.

[Spellbreaker26]

What if it had Absorb Elements (from EE) instead of Shield?

This is a fantastic idea actually.