Paladin - How do you handle ability scores?

[Mordrigar]

Hello playgrounders.

I know Paladin is overall a good class. Smiting is great for Nova damage. Great Weapon Master is always a good option.
Charisma-to-save is still there for a tankiness.

But how do you like your Paladin? It is MAD as hell...

STR: Dump stat in this edition. You don't need it unless you're Barbarian. Dex is superior in most cases.
DEX: King of the ability scores. Unless you're going only for Str you'll need Dex. If you dump dex, you're one trick pony 9 out of 10 times (That 1 time is when you're Druid).
CON: You need it. Who does not?
INT: You don't need this one. But in the end, having 8 int will effect your role-play somehow.
WIS: 2nd most used stat in the game I think. But luckily A Paladin can skip it. (Yay!)
CHA: Your golden stat. Max it.

So, if you're going DEX route, you won't be "Knight in Shining Armor" because you can't wear plate armor efficently.
If you dump DEX, you'll end up -1 init and -1 dex save (one of the most used saves in the game) so I can't accept less than 10.

8 INT or 8 WIS? Well, of course I know CHA is more important than those two. Even in real world. Look at the media. But being dumb has its downsides. I prefer wise, cunning, charismatic leader who has deep thoughts about meaning of life, purpose of existence etc. "8" as a mental stat does not help this. You can't be Sun Tzu or Suleiman The Magnificent or Alexandre with 8 INT/WIS. Unless your GM lets you role play this way.

Because of this MAD thing, knight in shining armor archetype is about to die for me. Being Sword & Board Dex Paladin looks like the best option but where is the old "useful" Greatsword wielding full plate wearers?

How do you assign your ability scores?
Don't you hate 8 INT/WIS?
Is DEX Paladin really superior than STR Paladin?

[gfishfunk]

STR - stat affiliated with severity of pious work and labor that can be completed
Dex - stat affiliated with his quickly pious work and labor is completed.
Con - stat affiliated with how much pious work and labor can be accomplished
Wis - stat affiliated with knowing what pious work and labor consists of, identifying It
Int - dump stat
Cha - stat affiliated with how you look while completing pious work and labor. Max it.

Hope that helps.

[Arkhios]

Hello playgrounders.

I know Paladin is overall a good class. Smiting is great for Nova damage. Great Weapon Master is always a good option.
Charisma-to-save is still there for a tankiness.

But how do you like your Paladin? It is MAD as hell...

STR: Dump stat in this edition. You don't need it unless you're Bard. Dex is superior in most cases.
DEX: King of the ability scores. Unless you're going only for Str you'll need Dex. If you dump dex, you're one trick pony 9 out of 10 times (That 1 time is when you're Druid).
CON: You need it. Who does not?
INT: You don't need this one. But in the end, having 8 int will effect your role-play somehow.
WIS: 2nd most used stat in the game I think. But luckily A Paladin can skip it. (Yay!)
CHA: Your golden stat. Max it.

So, if you're going DEX route, you won't be "Knight in Shining Armor" because you can't wear plate armor efficently.
If you dump DEX, you'll end up -1 init and -1 dex save (one of the most used saves in the game) so I can't accept less than 10.

8 INT or 8 WIS? Well, of course I know CHA is more important than those two. Even in real world. Look at the media. But being dumb has its downsides. I prefer wise, cunning, charismatic leader who has deep thoughts about meaning of life, purpose of existence etc. "8" as a mental stat does not help this. You can't be Sun Tzu or Suleiman The Magnificent or Alexandre with 8 INT/WIS. Unless your GM lets you role play this way. But if you can role play as wise person but in a typical orc can't? That's a question for another topic but I hope you get my point.


Because of this MAD thing, knight in shining armor archetype is about to die for me. Being Sword & Board Dex Paladin looks like the best option but where is the old "useful" Greatsword wielding full plate wearers?

How do you assign your ability scores?
Don't you hate 8 INT/WIS?
Is DEX Paladin really superior than STR Paladin?

I do despise how so many people play a Paladin as a "Lawful Stupid" class (dumping either Intelligence or Wisdom, or both).
I don't think DEX Paladin to be superior than STR Paladin, I'd merely consider them equal.
On a matter of more personal taste, I'd assign my ability scores for a paladin in following order of importance: Str>Cha>Con>Wis>Int>Dex, preferably not having a dump stat at all, but if I must, it would be Dexterity for me.


STR - stat affiliated with severity of pious work and labor that can be completed
Dex - stat affiliated with his quickly pious work and labor is completed.
Con - stat affiliated with how much pious work and labor can be accomplished
Int - dump stat stat affiliated knowing what pious work and labor consists of, identifying It (Religion is an Intelligence skill, mind you)
Wis - stat affiliated with knowing what pious work and labor consists of, identifying It
Cha - stat affiliated with how you look while completing pious work and labor. Max it.

Hope that helps.

Fixed that for you. (I'm sorry, the order in which the stats are presented in various editions is kind of a pet peeve for me. Nothing personal in this. Also, I disagree with your notion of Wisdom over Intelligence as the only stat affiliated with knowing stuff).

[Rysto]

I think that you're vastly overrating the importance of Dex, especially when you're talking about the difference between an 8 and a 10. That'll be the difference in making your Dex save 1 in 20 rolls, and don't forget that at level 6, you get to add your CHA modifier to all saves, including Dex. Furthermore, things with Dex saves tend to only deal damage. Obviously you'd rather save for 1/2 damage, but at least it won't be a save-or-suck effect like something that targets WIS.

Dexadins can work, but they don't synergize well with a lot of your features. You can't smite with a ranged attack. Many smite spells (but not all) require melee attacks. Your aura(s) tend to be best used on your front-liners.

[Specter]

Trouble with not taking STR is that you lock yourself out of multiclassing, so there's that.

For the archetypal pally, I'd say STR=CHA>CON>WIS>INT=DEX.

[gfishfunk]

To agree:

Dump stats are generally Dex and Wis/Int, and I rarely go less than 10 on Int for most of my characters anyway.

In order: Cha / Str, and Con, then Int/Wis, last Dex. Paladins don't go first, they go last.

[JAL_1138]

I usually go half-elf or Vhuman. I'm going to take a feat anyway so by level 4 they draw even (slight edge to half-elf, but starting with the feat is nice. On a less-MAD class, Vhuman can be more powerful more quickly.)

16 10 14 10 10 14 (Vhuman) or 16 10 14 10 10 16 (half-elf). I don't like having that 8 in there if I can avoid it. Not optimal--dumping Int would be ideal, mechanically; there are practically no Int saves, other than the Intellect Devourer and a couple-three other things, whereas Dex and Wis are common saves and common checks.

EDIT: Dex is a decent choice for a dump stat, but it can help to go early in initiative to get Bless up in the first round. As far as Dex saves, OotA paladins offset a lot of spell damage with their level-7 feature, so they can afford to dump it even more than others.

[Arkhios]

there are practically no Int saves, other than the Intellect Devourer and a couple-three other things, whereas Dex and Wis are common saves and common checks.

While mostly true, there are quite a few Illusions that target intelligence via Investigation checks against the spell save DC, which is actually even worse than not having a bonus on intelligence saving throw. Dumb paladins (and other characters) would almost always believe illusions to be true, which on the other hand can be fun from roleplaying perspective.

[Pichu]

STR - stat affiliated with severity of pious work and labor that can be completed
Dex - stat affiliated with his quickly pious work and labor is completed.
Con - stat affiliated with how much pious work and labor can be accomplished
Wis - stat affiliated with knowing what pious work and labor consists of, identifying It
Int - dump stat
Cha - stat affiliated with how you look while completing pious work and labor. Max it.

Hope that helps.

No, it's:
Str: How hard can you throw a tomato?
Dex: Can you dodge a tomato thrown at you?
Con: Can you eat a rotten tomato and not get sick?
Wis: Can you realize that this tomato is rotten?
Int: Can you know that eating a rotten tomato is bad?
Cha: Can you sell a rotten tomato as if it were a non-rotten one?

[gfishfunk]

No, it's:
Str: How hard can you throw a tomato?
Dex: Can you dodge a tomato thrown at you?
Con: Can you eat a rotten tomato and not get sick?
Wis: Can you realize that this tomato is rotten?
Int: Can you know that eating a rotten tomato is bad?
Cha: Can you sell a rotten tomato as if it were a non-rotten one?

Why is your paladin so obsessed with tomatoes?

[Arkhios]

Why is your paladin so obsessed with tomatoes?

Why does anyone like Pepsi when there is Coca-Cola? :smallcool:

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't think the Paladin is worse than anyone else, really. In 5e, you generally always need primary/combat stat, a secondary/utility stat, and Con. The Paladin gets heavy armor and has a melee focus, meaning he really only needs one of Str or Dex-- you can have offense and defense and good saves either way. You actually probably need less Con than most, since you have a high AC and HD and plenty of healing and protection magic.

Also, why do you specify that only the Bard needs Str? Did you mean Barbarian?

[JAL_1138]

While mostly true, there are quite a few Illusions that target intelligence via Investigation checks against the spell save DC, which is actually even worse than not having a bonus on intelligence saving throw. Dumb paladins (and other characters) would almost always believe illusions to be true, which on the other hand can be fun from roleplaying perspective.

A 10ft pole solves a lot of illusion issues out of combat, since they fall apart when interacted with for the most part. Nobody ever uses 10ft poles anymore...dagnabbed whippersnappers.

Or someone smarter in the party can yell "That [whatever] is an illusion!" for no action cost. :smalltongue:

[Waazraath]

What I did for my dex paladin was picking half elf, ending up using standard point buy with:
str: 10
dex: 16
con: 14
int: 10
wis: 10
cha: 16

Yes, I don't like negative scores for wis/int, and having a negative str is plain silly for somebody wielding a sword all the time. 14 con is more than high enough, especially while having a good AC, using a shield. I continued maxing dex, even though most people say cha is more important, but my party needs damage more than high saves. That depends of course.

You don't really need to dump anything, in my experience, in 5e.

[Mordrigar]

I don't think the Paladin is worse than anyone else, really. In 5e, you generally always need primary/combat stat, a secondary/utility stat, and Con. The Paladin gets heavy armor and has a melee focus, meaning he really only needs one of Str or Dex-- you can have offense and defense and good saves either way. You actually probably need less Con than most, since you have a high AC and HD and plenty of healing and protection magic.

Also, why do you specify that only the Bard needs Str? Did you mean Barbarian?

I edited that. I was writing some stuff about bards, hehe mistyped.

[JAL_1138]

STR paladin has two feat choices that put it ahead of DEX paladin for me. Granted, only one of the two works on any one character; it's either/or.

Polearm Master gives you op attacks when enemies enter your reach--and you can Smite on op attacks, too. And you get a bonus action attack (d4+Str) the same as if you were using TWF with the fighting style, although with a smaller die. With Defensive fighting style (great weapon style is less useful than it looks, because you don't reroll Smite dice) and full plate, you have 19 AC, which is one better than the same as a DEX Pally with +5 Dex who took both Defensive and Dual-Wielder, and the same as a DEX pally with +5 Dex who uses a shield. (If your build can stand two feats, PAM combos amazingly with Sentinel).

Shield Master gives a bonus action Shove that keys off STR Athletics and can be used to generate free Advantage in melee on creatures of one size category bigger than the Pally. Shield Master also offsets a Dex penalty on saves vs single-target spells and effects (but it doesn't help against AoEs, granted). The Shove is phenomenally useful.

I take one or the other of these two feats on every Paladin I play. And on Pally 2/Valor Bard X multiclasses, too (Shield Master in particular is crazy with Expertise in Athletics. You will almost always Shove enemies prone successfully).

[Biggstick]

Strength Paladins are absolutely viable. As another poster stated, Dex saves are usually only for damage, and you're going to have a decent Con score + Paladin hit die already to help cover you.

Unless you roll for your stats, it does feel limiting in that the only "acceptable" races for Paladin seem to be Half Elf and Human. Once you get over the idea of min-maxing though, you'll realize 14 Charisma isn't really that bad. You'll realize 18 Strength really isn't that bad. Now where your stats matter is if you're trying to play a Dexterity based Paladin. You need that maxed out Dexterity, as all of your strengths are based off of Dexterity (AC in particular). With a Strength Paladin, you'll be able to have maxed out AC as soon as you can afford Plate.

[JellyPooga]

I like my Paladins with a solid core of Ancients Oath and Folk Hero Background, with Cha=Dex=Wis>Con=Int>Str and a Monk dip, wearing robes and wielding a quarterstaff. Add Magic Initiate for Mending, Druidcraft and Goodberry to taste.

Is it "optimal"? No. Not by a long shot. Is it fun playing a guy equipped with nothing but some cloth and a stick, who's friends with all the villagers, can feed his traveling companions, predict the weather and fix anything from torn clothes to a broken wagon wheel AND can still kick butt and take names? Absolutely.

[Rysto]

Unless you roll for your stats, it does feel limiting in that the only "acceptable" races for Paladin seem to be Half Elf and Human.

It's a bit unusual flavour-wise, but note that Dragonborn give +2STR +1CHA, which makes them good Paladin candidates mechanically.

[gfishfunk]

The slight stat bonuses are not a huge deal.

Half-Orcs? +2 Str, +1 Con. Put Cha at 15 and give them a +1 at your next ASI, totally viable.

Gnomes: +1 Con or Dex. At level 4 they can have 16 Cha / 14 Str (or vice versa), with a great deal of religious knowledge (+2 Int).

All races are viable, but a few are mechanically superior immediately: Dragonborn, Dwarves, Humans, Half-Elfs, and Tieflings.

[Ruslan]

Don't you hate 8 INT/WIS?It's manageable. Just act like you're all righteous and at the same time know nothing. For extra credit, name your character Jon Snow.

[JAL_1138]

Strength Paladins are absolutely viable. As another poster stated, Dex saves are usually only for damage, and you're going to have a decent Con score + Paladin hit die already to help cover you.

Unless you roll for your stats, it does feel limiting in that the only "acceptable" races for Paladin seem to be Half Elf and Human. Once you get over the idea of min-maxing though, you'll realize 14 Charisma isn't really that bad. You'll realize 18 Strength really isn't that bad. Now where your stats matter is if you're trying to play a Dexterity based Paladin. You need that maxed out Dexterity, as all of your strengths are based off of Dexterity (AC in particular). With a Strength Paladin, you'll be able to have maxed out AC as soon as you can afford Plate.

Any race is viable, those just give you the best stats or other benefits for it. Aasimar is probably going to get a lot of use too, and a few others mentioned Dragonborn already. But as for Vhuman and Half-Elf, their mechanical benefits lead to popularity on a board with something of an optimization focus, in a thread asking about stat distribution preferences.

But yes, anything works. Gnome paladin works. Half-orc paladin works (quite well, actually, because Str boost. Also fun to RP--makes sense that an outcast discriminated against racially might seek shelter in faith). Any PHB race, and probably any Volo's race, will function well enough in all but the highest-op of high-op games (and won't lag badly even then, because 5e is swingy enough to even a lot out).

It's an artifact of the board's inclination toward optimizing. Same reason you see a lot of Vhuman Fighters, Half-Orc Barbarians, and Halfling Rogues instead of High Elf Barbarians, Half-Orc Wizards, and suchlike, even though they'd work okay too.

[Oramac]

I have never once played a Dex Paladin, and I've done just fine with all of mine.

You can point buy 14, 10, 14, 10, 10, 14 for stats, or your can dump Dex and replace a 14 with a 15 (what I usually do).

Bottom line: Dex is a perfectly viable dump stat for a Str based Paladin.

[Foxhound438]

Is DEX Paladin really superior than STR Paladin?

nope. And that's not even a preference thing, str paladin opens up both multiclassing and the polearm master feat (the latter is widely regarded as the single most important feat for paladins, at least on this forum), and has better AC to boot.

The synergy with polearm master and the paladin's many "damage per hit" boosts such as improved divine smite and to a lesser extent divine favor is way more valuable that succeeding 15% more dex saves, and in a party of 4 having lackluster ranged ability is far from crippling (note that's lackluster, not total absence of; javelins are in the game for a reason).

There's room to argue that maybe a dual wielding dex paladin, despite lacking the proper FS, can still work okay, but it's generally worse than s+b with the proper style before level 11.

I also must point out that while dex saves are more common, str saves are more crippling. Most things that require a strength save cause restraint or forced re-positioning, which is vital to avoid for something that's mainstay feature requires you to hit with a melee weapon attack.

[Oramac]

polearm master feat (the latter is widely regarded as the single most important feat for paladins, at least on this forum)

I agree except this part. Personally, I'd say Resilient (Con) is the most important feat for a Paladin.

But in either case, you're right that Str is the way to go for Pally.

[Willie the Duck]

STR: Dump stat in this edition. You don't need it unless you're Barbarian. Dex is superior in most cases.

You are right that Dex contributes more than Str, but Str opens up a number of options (many of which a paladin might be interested it). To enumerate:

If you are going sword and board, then yes, Str or Dex have combat parity (rapier and longsword being equal), with Dex having the advantage I suppose in that if you are going to switch to ranged, you probably want a bow and not a javelin. OTOH, Str is used for all of the most interesting two-handed weapons, and there's good reason for a Paladin to want to go that route (such as Sentinel with reach to protect the rear line).
While both Acrobatics and Athletics can be used to resist pushing/grappling, Athletics can initiate them. A paladin can take great advantage of these abilities.
Athletics can be also more useful than Acrobatics. , It is stated that you can climb and jump with it. Whether you can do these things with Dex-Acrobatics is debatable and your DM may rule that you cannot



DEX: King of the ability scores. Unless you're going only for Str you'll need Dex. If you dump dex, you're one trick pony 9 out of 10 times (That 1 time is when you're Druid).

The first part of this is probably true, the second I have no idea how you think so. Dex is great. Hands down. No argument. It's AC, initiative, an important save, great skills, and one option for combat. This is true of everyone, not just paladins. However, you can live without a great dex.

Heavy armor works well at protecting (and if you don't have dex as a fighting type, you probably have strength, so it doesn't slow you down). In fact it maxes out 1 higher than a Dex-based build (and probably starts out higher, presuming the light armor wearer doesn't start with an 18+)
If you don't have the stealth skill, wearing armor and having a low dex is penalizing something you weren't going to attempt anyways.
While all skills are useful, there's no other Dex based skill that completely changes what you do with the character.
Dex saves are a problem, but by level 6, the paladin is going to be doing better than most PCs in that field anyways.
Yeah, initiative. It's going to suck (unless you spend an ASI on the initiative feat, which is a huge cost). You can live with it.




So, if you're going DEX route, you won't be "Knight in Shining Armor" because you can't wear plate armor efficently.

No. That's what a strength build does. Explain again why that's a problem. If you are simply looking for an example of a Dex-based paladin type, think Scarlet Pimpernel or 3 Musketeers (I know, probably CG, but paladins can be that now).


If you dump DEX, you'll end up -1 init and -1 dex save (one of the most used saves in the game) so I can't accept less than 10.
That's on you.


8 INT or 8 WIS? Well, of course I know CHA is more important than those two. Even in real world. Look at the media. But being dumb has its downsides. I prefer wise, cunning, charismatic leader who has deep thoughts about meaning of life, purpose of existence etc. "8" as a mental stat does not help this. You can't be Sun Tzu or Suleiman The Magnificent or Alexandre with 8 INT/WIS. Unless your GM lets you role play this way.

So what your saying is that you'd rather have a character who is good at (or at least not-bad at) everything? Me too. Good thing with point buy you can.


Because of this MAD thing, knight in shining armor archetype is about to die for me. Being Sword & Board Dex Paladin looks like the best option but where is the old "useful" Greatsword wielding full plate wearers?

Again, that is all on you. A full plate and great sword paladin is hugely viable (although frankly sword and board is what an iconic paladin looks like in my mind).

I'm still confused on this whole MAD claim. Excluding Con for all classes (since they all need it), a paladin 'needs' 2 stats, traditionally Str and Cha. But the same is true of most all the other classes:

A barbarian Str and Dex.
A Bard Dex and Cha (plus wis or int for skills).
A Cleric Wis and Str (excluding Nature Cleric and shillelagh shenanigans).
A druid Wisdom and whichever combat/AC stat they want for when they aren't in an animal form.
A fighter just Str or Dex.
A Monk Dex and Wis.
A Ranger Dex and Wis.
A Rogue just Dex, but really suffers skill-wise if not well-rounded in most stats.
A Sorcerer Dex and Cha. A Warlock Dex and Cha.
And A Wizard Dex and Int.

So with the exception of a (non-EK) fighter, nature cleric, or druid, all of the classes require at least as much MAD as the paladin. Sure some you can get by with more or less (a cleric might not be fighting that much to need a really high str, a barbarian can wear medium armor and only go to Dex 14), but usually that means constraining what they do, so they are working around a handicap, just like a paladin with an 8 Dex.
I'm not arguing that a paladin doesn't have to manage 3 important stats, it's just that most everyone does.


How do you assign your ability scores?
Don't you hate 8 INT/WIS?
Is DEX Paladin really superior than STR Paladin?

I tend to assign weighted more towards the 12 12 12 13 13 13 motif than the 8 8 8 15 15 15 motif. I also don't like dump-stating those stats my class interacts less with. In the case of a paladin, you can go half-elf and end up with 14 10 14 10 12 16 (or 10 14 14 10 12 16) and that is fine. you do not need to end up at level 20 with a 20 in both Cha and your combat stat (although you still could, if you put all your ASIs into stats).

both 8 int and 8 wis would be something I'd want to roleplay once, and then put down for quite some time. One or the other would be just fine. I can play and absentminded professor or an uneducated soul with lots of folk wisdom.

For everything I've said (mostly because I think you overstated your claim), yes. I think Dex-based paladins work better... unless you have a specific build (such as Str-athletics shield basher, or polearm sentinel) that capitalizes on Strength. Or some other specific instance, such as the DM who is having you explore caves or cliffs, and won't use Dex-acrobatics for climbing or jumping.

[djreynolds]

Sacred weapon is 1 minute short rest channel divinity... adds your charisma to hit.

A 20 in charisma is +5 negating the -5 of GWM. A 16 charisma is +3, not too shabby.

Plus the bless spell and your strength bonus and you may never have need of smiting.

And since you need strength for GWM, you can dump dex and call it a day.

Darkvision is a spell someone can cast on you if you decide human variant.

But half-elf could be the top choice. Grab history and say religion. Whatever, 2 free skills.

Its really up to you. I think you could leave con at 14 and be all right.

[Arkhios]

A 10ft pole solves a lot of illusion issues out of combat, since they fall apart when interacted with for the most part. Nobody ever uses 10ft poles anymore...dagnabbed whippersnappers.

Or someone smarter in the party can yell "That [whatever] is an illusion!" for no action cost. :smalltongue:

Of course, if you suspect there's an illusion in the first place. A dumb character might not (without a smarter companion telling them to).

[MeeposFire]

People on this forum definitely push dex WAY too much. Many times this is because they notice that in vacuum that dex has slightly more benefits than str. What many people then forget to do is to temper that with all the various trade offs you get for using dex instead that makes str work. Athletics is really good in lot of situations and losing out on that hurts. Initiative can be good but people really overvalue it on many character types. It is not that important to a paladin. Wizard yes paladin not as much (especially since we no longer have delaying). Str actually has better AC. For a melee class like the paladin str is the better choice because you get heavy armor for free and all your damage boosts are melee only. Further the best options for feats for melee characters require strength to use effectively. Due to this while you can certainly be effective using dex you can do more damage going strength.


Dex single class paladins are cool and certainly effective enough to actually use but they are not better than what you could do using str.

[Foxhound438]

Of course, if you suspect there's an illusion in the first place. A dumb character might not (without a smarter companion telling them to).

clearly you make a character based on the kobold inventor: your primary method of fighting things is shoving a long stick into their face and waiting for the scorpion tied to the end to sting the thing. If your enemy happens to be an illusion, you will know as soon as your stick passes through them.


Thanks, advantage from pack tactics, now that there's a scorpion that I have enslaved next to the creature, I now have advantage on my attempt to shove a stick with a scorpion tied to the end of it into the creature's face

Edit: man, I stumble upon the dumbest build ideas by joking about dumb build ideas too often... Some poor unsuspecting DM is going to hate me when I pull this out for a random 1-off

[vostyg]

I like my Paladins with a solid core of Ancients Oath and Folk Hero Background, with Cha=Dex=Wis>Con=Int>Str and a Monk dip, wearing robes and wielding a quarterstaff. Add Magic Initiate for Mending, Druidcraft and Goodberry to taste.

Is it "optimal"? No. Not by a long shot. Is it fun playing a guy equipped with nothing but some cloth and a stick, who's friends with all the villagers, can feed his traveling companions, predict the weather and fix anything from torn clothes to a broken wagon wheel AND can still kick butt and take names? Absolutely.

You can't multiclass as a paladin unless you have Strength of at least 13, so dumping Strength for this build is really not an option.

[vostyg]

I agree except this part. Personally, I'd say Resilient (Con) is the most important feat for a Paladin.

But in either case, you're right that Str is the way to go for Pally.

If proficiency with Con saves is important to your build, starting out with a level of Fighter or Sorcerer is a good option that can save you an ASI.

[djreynolds]

Resilient con seems expensive, I'm mean can you live with +7 or +8 after adding in aura of protection and a 20 in charisma?


Also intriguing is OoD sacred weapon, could be used with a bow... you cannot smite with it, but it could work with sharpshooter and elemental weapon.

[JellyPooga]

You can't multiclass as a paladin unless you have Strength of at least 13, so dumping Strength for this build is really not an option.

Half-Elf
Str:13, Dex:13+1, Con:12, Int:12, Wis:13+1, Cha:12+2

It's not quite the stat array I'd like because, as you say I can't dump Str, but it's close enough and ASI's will rectify the discrepancies somewhat. I could hard-dump Int for Dex or Wis 15+1, but I dislike playing unintelligent characters.

[Spacehamster]

Hello playgrounders.

I know Paladin is overall a good class. Smiting is great for Nova damage. Great Weapon Master is always a good option.
Charisma-to-save is still there for a tankiness.

But how do you like your Paladin? It is MAD as hell...

STR: Dump stat in this edition. You don't need it unless you're Barbarian. Dex is superior in most cases.
DEX: King of the ability scores. Unless you're going only for Str you'll need Dex. If you dump dex, you're one trick pony 9 out of 10 times (That 1 time is when you're Druid).
CON: You need it. Who does not?
INT: You don't need this one. But in the end, having 8 int will effect your role-play somehow.
WIS: 2nd most used stat in the game I think. But luckily A Paladin can skip it. (Yay!)
CHA: Your golden stat. Max it.

So, if you're going DEX route, you won't be "Knight in Shining Armor" because you can't wear plate armor efficently.
If you dump DEX, you'll end up -1 init and -1 dex save (one of the most used saves in the game) so I can't accept less than 10.

8 INT or 8 WIS? Well, of course I know CHA is more important than those two. Even in real world. Look at the media. But being dumb has its downsides. I prefer wise, cunning, charismatic leader who has deep thoughts about meaning of life, purpose of existence etc. "8" as a mental stat does not help this. You can't be Sun Tzu or Suleiman The Magnificent or Alexandre with 8 INT/WIS. Unless your GM lets you role play this way.

Because of this MAD thing, knight in shining armor archetype is about to die for me. Being Sword & Board Dex Paladin looks like the best option but where is the old "useful" Greatsword wielding full plate wearers?

How do you assign your ability scores?
Don't you hate 8 INT/WIS?
Is DEX Paladin really superior than STR Paladin?

Bit contradictory to say STR is a dump stat when you say great weapon master is a great option. ;)
They don´t need DEX at all since they can use heavy armor, if I were to make a paladin I would make
it a mtn dwarf paladin with start stats 15/8/15/8/8/15, first ASI put +1 STR and CHA for 18 STR 16 CHA,
next either GWM or max STR, level 12 Resilient CON for constitution save prof and 18 CON, two remaining ones
on 18 CHA and a feat or 20 STR if you did the GWM at 8 route. :)

[Citan]

Hi all!

First, little comment here. ;)


Dexadins can work, but they don't synergize well with a lot of your features. You can't smite with a ranged attack. Many smite spells (but not all) require melee attacks. Your aura(s) tend to be best used on your front-liners.
Focusing on Dex does not necessarily mean you will use ranged attacks. ;)
I see Dexadins's forte being the following:
- dual-wielding (for a pure class, it would be more for fluff since you don't get the related Fighting Style, although it can be just for the extra chance to smite).
- sword and board: while arguably using STR would be better if you take the Shield Master feat because you want to shove, going Dex for one-handed weapons does not make a difference damage-wise (all one-handed weapon cap at 1d8) so you can use a Rapier... While having much better Initiative and defense against AOE than your STR counterpart. And you can grab Defensive Duelist to get a nice defense reaction when needed.

Also, while indeed part of your features don't work at range, you also get a much better ranged attack, meaning that in some situations where a STR Paladin can not do much (high flying creatures, long-range encounter) you can deal some damage. And you can be decently good at sneaking, useful when there is no other way to get through some place.

So, really, it's not a bad choice per se. It just requires more *finesse* to build and play because you have to take into account what you "gain" and what you "lose" by doing so. :=)

Now, for OP question:
As you stressed yourself, Paladin's apparent MADness is fairly compensated by Aura of Protection, so, in fact, there are several ways to go at it, depending on what you like to do and archetype choice...

For example...
- You know you will rarely use spells (apart from occasional Bless) and will burn everything on smite? Then making a STR build with Vengeance (striker) or Devotion (more balanced) archetype will be your thing: STR > CHA > CON > everything else (either dump one stat or keep everything balanced. AoP is here for you. XD).

- You want to be the most versatile Paladin possible? Then CHA will be a priority, because you get many spells. Dex or STR are equally good, depending on how you view your character: this will mainly determine your armor, shove, initiative and stealth (although for above mentioned reasons, I'd say Dex provides more versatility). Crown gives powerful control features, Ancients nice battlefield control and Devotion overcompensates your lower attack, plus giving strong buffs.
CHA > CON > whatever you want.

- You want to multiclass? Then choose depending on your end build (you could for example decide to build a Sorcadin multiclass that uses only defensive features of Paladin while heavily relying on both Paladin and Sorcerer spells. You are wasting smiting but you can do great things with Extend, Heightened or Twin on Paladin spells ^^). ;)

Frankly, I don't see the Paladin as that MAD in the first place.
Anyone needs Constitution, most need either STR or DEX for armor anyways, and many classes or subclasses use a "caster" stat (even if you can build a very good build while dumping it thanks to a careful choice of spells).