Perception Roll when Sleeping?

[BDRook]

So my party has just kidnapped a high value target, and are keeping him locked in an inn room by himself, with Arcane Lock on the door and window. They all decided to sleep without keeping watch because they're convinced Arcane Lock will keep the target in the room.

So of course the target is going to break the glass window instead of opening it and try and escape. So my question is what sort of perception check should I give them? I know it will make noise, but is there a rule for perception checks when asleep to wake up? What about the elf trance?

[gfishfunk]

Roll a normal stealth check with your NPC with a 10DC.

Alternatively, do not roll the dice at all. Tell them that they hear a crash. It wakes them up. More information and action is better.

[Falcon X]

10DC does sound reasonable if a person is merely sneaking past sleeping people.
Then again, it depends on what he has to do to break the glass. If the players are in the same room as glass breaking, the DC might push up to even 25DC, seeing as it's a high pitched noise. There's only so much you can do to muffle that sound.

[BDRook]

They're not, they're in different rooms. And he has a knife to break the glass, as well as whatever's in the room itself that could break glass.

[DivisibleByZero]

Would the prisoner know that the room has been warded and how it done?
If so, don't roll anything. He gets away by breaking the window with his elbow and a sheet from the bed.
If not, why did he break the window instead of opening it?

[BDRook]

Well he would try opening it, and fail because of the spell. The next logical thing to do would be try and break it. But I just read on the spell it claims that the spell makes the window "harder to break" than usual. What kind of bull**** wording is that WoTC? How much harder? Why would they put that in there without specifying?

[hymer]

I prefer to have the players roll rather than me rolling. I think I'd give them a DC equal to the NPC's stealth bonus +10 (passive check) +5 (different but adjacent room) with disadvantage (for being asleep). I'd let the NPC use Wis or Int for his (passive) stealth roll, indicating that choosing the correct materials and the correct way is at least as important as being naturally quiet for this.

[Willie the Duck]

I just read on the spell it claims that the spell makes the window "harder to break" than usual. What kind of bull**** wording is that WoTC? How much harder? Why would they put that in there without specifying?

Because ruling not rules. Agree or disagree with the policy, one can't pretend they haven't been completely up front about it or that they aren't applying it consistently.

[Sjappo]

What do you want to achieve? Having the NPC escape without any chance to stop or catch him again is lame. So ...

Do you want a scene where they try to prevent the NPC from escaping. Let them wake up.

Do you want a chase scene? They don't hear but find clues in the morning.

You want the dice to decide? stealth vs. perception with disadvantage sounds about right. Be aware that with 4 PC's making the check 1 is bound to make a decent check.

You want him to disappear without a trace and no possibility to prevent it? Don't ;)

[RipTide]

But I just read on the spell it claims that the spell makes the window "harder to break" than usual. What kind of bull**** wording is that WoTC? How much harder? Why would they put that in there without specifying?

The spell actually specifies that it adds +10 to any DC made to break it or pick any locks on it. So say that glass is maybe a DC 5 STR check to break, so if the captured guy cant make a DC 15 STR check he fails to break out at all (not hard but hey maybe he has low STR and bad rolls).

As far as the party hearing it, I would probably go with something like the higher the check to successfully break the window the cleaner the break and the higher the DC to notice it. Go with like 10 + however much over 15 the STR check was for total DC of a perception check to wake up, and give the party disadvantage on the perception check for being asleep/trancing.

[BDRook]

You want him to disappear without a trace and no possibility to prevent it? Don't ;)





Look I'm not the one who put the V.I.P in a room alone with no guard and only a 2nd level spell keeping him in there. Actions have consequences and they're dealing with a crafty individual. So if he gets away scot-free than it's their own fault for not being more careful. I'm not coddling my players.

[Kane0]

Passive perception, probably with disadvantage, against a low DC. So assume they roll a 5 vs DC 10 or so.
The other option is setting the DC at his stealth roll, likely also at disadvantage.
Success triggers the escape scene where the party can attempt to subdue if they are quick or give chase if they arent.

In the morning they can easily see how their captive escaped (as in passive investigation vs DC 10) and a slightly harder one to track or find out where he went, triggering a hunt/chase scene.

The aim is to be fun and engaging, player agency is pretty important to that.

[N810]

how about using their passive perception as the DC ?


Doh ninjaed.

[Armored Walrus]

If you're asking RAW- a sleeping person is incapacitated and unaware of their surroundings.

If you're asking for something that won't cause your players to mutiny because the above is totally unfair for normal, rather than magical, sleep, I would say that's what passive checks are for. Passive perception, or passive perception -5 if you want to rule that sleeping imposes disadvantage, versus whatever DC you think is appropriate for hearing a breaking window in the next room. If the place they are sleeping is dead quiet, i would think it would be an Easy DC of 5. If they are sleeping above the common room of an inn, where they've had to try to sleep through fist fights, or performing musicians below them for the past three nights, then the DC is probably Hard - 15.

[JellyPooga]

If you're asking RAW- a sleeping person is incapacitated and unaware of their surroundings

Can you cite a reference for that?[/genuine question]

[DivisibleByZero]

What do you want to achieve? Having the NPC escape without any chance to stop or catch him again is lame. So ...

Their chance to stop it would have been to NOT leave the prisoner alone is a room while they went and slept in a different room altogether.
...
That's what's lame, and they completely deserve the fact that he can EASILY escape.

[VoxRationis]

Passive perception, probably with disadvantage, against a low DC. So assume they roll a 5 vs DC 10 or so.
The other option is setting the DC at his stealth roll, likely also at disadvantage.
Success triggers the escape scene where the party can attempt to subdue if they are quick or give chase if they arent.

In the morning they can easily see how their captive escaped (as in passive investigation vs DC 10) and a slightly harder one to track or find out where he went, triggering a hunt/chase scene.

The aim is to be fun and engaging, player agency is pretty important to that.

I am inclined to agree with a lot of this. They get a roll with disadvantage to detect his escape attempt. If they fail, he escapes and they have to track him down. However, I'd say it might be a little more difficult to detect than that. Furthermore, the player agency was already involved—the players actively created the situation we're talking about. Any negative consequences are just a result of the players active, informed choices. The situation is akin to the players choosing to jump off a 30' cliff without any form of mitigating fall damage. The players chose to do that thing, and there are consequences from that action that the players might not like. Hardly game-ending consequences for most characters, but consequences nonetheless. The primary difference between this scenario and the tavern room is that the delay between cause and effect is somewhat longer.

[Sigreid]

I think stealth vs. party's best passive perception.

[FreddyNoNose]

What do you want to achieve? Having the NPC escape without any chance to stop or catch him again is lame. So ...

Do you want a scene where they try to prevent the NPC from escaping. Let them wake up.

Do you want a chase scene? They don't hear but find clues in the morning.

You want the dice to decide? stealth vs. perception with disadvantage sounds about right. Be aware that with 4 PC's making the check 1 is bound to make a decent check.

You want him to disappear without a trace and no possibility to prevent it? Don't ;)

You could have him break the glass to seem like he has escaped then hide under the bed. If the PCs hear and check on the room, they would see what appears to be broken window and missing person. Then let the fun ensue!

[FreddyNoNose]

Their chance to stop it would have been to NOT leave the prisoner alone is a room while they went and slept in a different room altogether.
...
That's what's lame, and they completely deserve the fact that he can EASILY escape.

You are correct. I don't like that other person shaming this situation that was of their own creation. It is as if they are saying "Bad DM". DM should be challenging them this way.

[Sigreid]

You know, a little rule number 2 discipline and you don't have to worry about these kinds of things.

[Malifice]

Think of it this way; if you were sleeping in your bedroom and someone smashed the window in the lounge room, how hard would it be to hear that through one or two closed doors?

I'd give them all DC15 Perception checks.

[Armored Walrus]

Can you cite a reference for that?[/genuine question]

My source is the Sleep spell, JellyPooga. I didn't see sleep rules referenced anywhere else. Although as I said, it's a pretty harsh rule, and refers to magical sleep, not normal sleep, so this still falls in ruling vs rules territory.

[JellyPooga]

My source is the Sleep spell, JellyPooga. I didn't see sleep rules referenced anywhere else. Although as I said, it's a pretty harsh rule, and refers to magical sleep, not normal sleep, so this still falls in ruling vs rules territory.

OK thanks. I would tend to agree that we're deep in rulings territory, but at least it's something to go on; the rules for sleeping are...vague to non-existent.

[Occasional Sage]

If you're going to use dice to determine this, I think the Perception DC should be based in part on layout. The PCs will have a much harder time hearing the window break if their rooms are, say, across the hall from the captive's. Weather would have an effect too; add a rain or lightning storm for terrible listening conditions!

[Malifice]

DC15 perception to hear glass breaking and wake up.

Heck, when in doubt go with DC15 (insert skill).

A PC that makes it by 5 or more realises the glass breaking sound is actually glass shattering from a window and is coming from the next room.

[Willie the Duck]

Yes, it's more a question of whether everyone in the party should make a perception check against a fixed DC, or the escapee should make a stealth check against their passive perception (perhaps with advantage, since they are asleep). And that really depends on whether you think having more people sleeping X rooms away should increase the likeliness of hearing the escape attempt or whether it is simply who is the lightest sleepers (best passive perception) and whether they wake up.

[MaxWilson]

My source is the Sleep spell, JellyPooga. I didn't see sleep rules referenced anywhere else. Although as I said, it's a pretty harsh rule, and refers to magical sleep, not normal sleep, so this still falls in ruling vs rules territory.

There's also this:



Unconscious
An unconscious creature is incapacitated (see the condition), can’t move or speak, and is unaware of its surroundings
The creature drops whatever it’s holding and falls prone.
The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.
Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.

I agree that it's worth drawing a distinction between "asleep" and "unconscious" though. I'd go with passive Perception checks.

[Naanomi]

They aren't not actively using the skill so passive perception... and being asleep may be worth disadvantage (for -5 on the passive score)... but breaking the window is pretty loud so may be a wash there. Trance wouldn't get the disadvantage for me either, perhaps being a net advantage (+5)

I'd make the intruder roll (stealth/theif tools/sleight of hand/Dex check depending on methods used) and compare it to those passives

[gfishfunk]

You are correct. I don't like that other person shaming this situation that was of their own creation. It is as if they are saying "Bad DM". DM should be challenging them this way.

I'm not sure I view it as bad gm / good gm. I course it as what makes the session fun and moved the story. Having a guy sneak out based on a roll can be frustrating and might not move the story along. Having the players know that it is happening might make for a more fun session (chase, apprehension) or might make for a better story.

I know there are mechanical and logical reasons for the roll, but in my view the mechanics serve the story and the fun, not the other way around. The question isn't hope it should happen but whether it is more fun and engaging to happen. If your players would find it fun, do a passive perception v. Stealth. If not, decide what will happen and that happens.

[Grey Watcher]

Personally, I handle perception during natural sleep thusly:


For creatures that sleep, such as humans, impose disadvantage on Perception checks (or -5 if you are using Passive Perception) and are considered blinded (ie, they automatically fail Perception checks based exclusively on sight).
For creatures that trance, such as elves, treat them as sleeping, except they are not blinded.
For creatures that merely rest, but remain fully aware, such as UA Warforged, treat perception the same way you would if they were active.


Again, that's just my cobbled together houserule on the subject.

[Doug Lampert]

DC15 perception to hear glass breaking and wake up.

Heck, when in doubt go with DC15 (insert skill).

A PC that makes it by 5 or more realises the glass breaking sound is actually glass shattering from a window and is coming from the next room.

This is an important point, waking up doesn't do squat for the PCs, a noise wakes you up when you're sleeping in a strange inn in a room full of other people (your fellow adventurers) with a tavern downstairs. What do you do?

This is very much not "you now know your prisoner is escaping" stuff. If someone insists that they do react to a noise every time it happens I'd have the prisoner sleep through the night peacefully, and then escape easily at dawn when the PCs are too exhausted from some IDIOT jumping up and sounding the alarm every 5 minutes to do anything about this.

It's a medievaloid village, how much livestock is in range of the building and likely to make noise? How many dogs? How many other people?

You sleep through minor noises or just roll over and go back to sleep, because that's the only way to get any sleep.

The perception roll isn't "do you wake up?" it's "do you wake up AND realize exactly what it is that woke you up".

Similarly, the big problem with sneaking out is more likely to be the livestock reacting than the noise of breaking a window. (See below.)


They aren't not actively using the skill so passive perception... and being asleep may be worth disadvantage (for -5 on the passive score)... but breaking the window is pretty loud so may be a wash there. Trance wouldn't get the disadvantage for me either, perhaps being a net advantage (+5)

I'd make the intruder roll (stealth/theif tools/sleight of hand/Dex check depending on methods used) and compare it to those passives

(1) Breaking glass isn't loud if you muffle it even just on one side, as you will do BY ACCIDENT if you decide to use a blanket or something placed against the glass to protect yourself from shards. (Although glass strengthened by a spell may be different.)

(2) What kind of faux medieval inn HAS glass windows? The windows are parchment covered, or shutters.

If shutters then breaking out with a +10 to the break DC will probably be impossible (unless like almost all shutters the bar/latch is on the inside... in which case it's trivial). If parchment then it's even quieter than the glass.

[MBControl]

I find the best way to solve these problems is to reverse the rolls. How would you handle it if your party members where attempting the same feat?

I agree, that breaking glass will wake the party, so I would just tell them that part. If you want to make a roll give them Perception DC10 or 12, the Tranced Elf rolls with ADV.

The next step would be more of an Initiative/Dex check. Who reacts the quickest to the sound. I would also have your party's speed halved, as they would be groggy, and take them a moment to adjust to the situation.

It would be very unlikely that the prisoner would be able to escape stealthily, the question for me is he able to escape in time.

[Sigreid]

Whether breaking the window is a significant noise depends. How much city noise is there? How much tavern noise is there? How much did the party drink? Was the escape smart enough and able to double up a blanket over the window to muffle the noise?