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View Full Version : DM Help The Great Shadowrun Debacle of 2016: What did I do wrong?



PallentisLunam
2016-11-23, 02:43 AM
The Background:

I run a weekly D&D game for my roommates plus a few nonroomie friends at college. We are currently in the middle of a Curse of Strahd game that we started back at the beginning of the semester. As usually happens around this time of year it's getting hard to maintain regular meetings due to last minute projects, cramming for exams, and holiday tomfoolery. It just so happened that this week only three of my regular five players could make it. Rather than scrap the evening entirely I decided to put CoS on hold and run a game of Shadowrun as a change of pace.

Several of my players are new to tabletop RPGs and I find that they do much better if they are eased into the system rather than being buried in the rulebooks, so I pared Shadowrun down to the bare minimums. I explained the races in broad terms, elves are smoother than smooth, orks are big and ugly, trolls are even bigger and uglier. I gave them five archetypes to choose from: Street Samurai, Mage, Shaman, Rigger, and Decker. I provided a very broad and shallow description of the genre and world history. I explained how d6s were used instead of the d20 mechanic they were used to.

What Happened:

Of my three players, let's call them H, J, and R, all seemed eager to give the new system a try. R declared that he wanted to be a Troll Shaman who used magic to augment his already incredible physical abilities. J said he would be a Human Street Samurai specialized in long range weaponry, specifically sniper rifles. And H chose to be an Elf Rigger with dashing good looks and a roguish charm.

They were all contacted by Mr. Johnson who explained that he would pay them ¥20,000 each to steal a prototype component for nuclear fusion reactors produced by Lighthouse Industries (LI). Mr. Johnson told them that the component would be in LI's Seattle hub until the end of the month, one week from the date of contact. He told them that their methods did not matter but he needed the prototype in his possession, unharmed, as soon as possible.

After everybody accepted and a quick roleplay moment was spared for the team introductions the party got down to work. J asked about scouting out the installation. I told him that it had been built in a mixed residential/commercial neighborhood next to a major highway. It was surrounded on three sides by subdivisions, there was a seedy motel directly across the highway from it. Less than a mile northwest was a mall. Small businesses and restaurants were scattered about the immediate area. The installation itself was built on a 20 acre plot of land, surrounded by a 10 ft. sheet metal fence topped with razor wire. There were fairly wide, well kept strips of land north and south of it. The highway formed its western boundary and a smaller road formed its eastern boundary. There were three gates in the fence that allowed entrance and exit to and from the facility.

At this point J decided that he was going to rent a room in the seedy motel for the week and spend two days observing the location from the roof. R and H went along with this happily. J declared that he was observing the site through the scope of his sniper rifle, dismantled of course so that he couldn't be caught pointing a gun at their target. In this way he learned that the main gain, which opened out onto the highway, across from the motel was always staffed by at least two burly, angry looking orks wearing body armor under their uniforms. They also carried tasers and handguns. They also had serious heat in the guardhouses in the form of shotguns and assault rifles. He also got a better look inside the facility where he counted a couple dozen large (2 or 3 story buildings) and about the same number of smaller ones. He was also able to determine that the facility was manned by well over a thousand people. At this point J asked if he could see someone who looked important, like a boss or manager. I told him that he was able to identify office workers, scientists, technicians, private security goons, contractors, janitors, and landscapers, but no he wasn't able to spot who was running the show. I explained that he wasn't able to see inside the buildings very well and could only see the people moving about in the parking lots or between some the buildings.

During these two days H decided he was going to do some poking around in the matrix. I asked him if he wanted to try and break into the site's internal network or if he just wanted to see what was publicly available. He said he would stick to public information. I told him he found this on their webpage.

LIGHTHOUSE TECHNOLOGY CENTER | SEATTLE
Lighthouse Technology Center Seattle has approximately 2,000 scientists, technologists, engineers, consultants, sales and support personnel working to find solutions for current and future energy challenges by improving and renewing nuclear products and processes.
Lighthouse Technology Center Seattle (LTCS) is the largest of three Lighthouse technology hubs—the others are in Wales and Dubai.
Sitting on 200 acres, LTCS has 44 buildings that account for more than 1.2 million square feet of laboratory and office space. The Center is home to six of the 11 Lighthouse Chief Scientists, whom contribute internationally-recognized, scientific expertise and are thought leaders in their specialized areas.

LTCS delivers differentiating technical information technology (IT) for Lighthouse and drives innovation to create technology solutions for tomorrow.

The Center’s work includes catalyst-related activities in conjunction with TSI/Touchstone Inc, in areas such as the development of high-yield electromagnets for nuclear fusion reactors to produce ultra-low-cost energy. LTCS is currently focused on:


Deepwater and Exploration R&D, including ocean floor utilization, 4D mapping, and logistical engineering.
Unconventional atomic resources for fission and fusion reactors.
Project design, engineering and management.
Process Development & Support for nuclear facilities.
R&D and Technical support for fission and fusion activities.
Upstream and downstream process development and testing.
Energy-related nanotechnology.
Full-range of Analytical services


Modernization Project
Lighthouse has a track record of delivering novel technology solutions and supporting large-scale, complex projects in some of the world’s most challenging locations to help meet rising energy demand. To continue advancing the development and deployment of vital innovation and technology, STCH underwent extensive expansion and renovation, completed in 2012.
The modernization project, which added 150,000 square feet and improved two-thirds of the existing space with major renovations, brought together upstream research and technology from the Vancouver Technology Center and downstream research and development and engineering support from the Tacoma Technology Center to create the Lighthouse Technology Center Seattle.

Creative Thinking Drives Innovation
LTCS’s expansive complex combines upstream and downstream technology groups to create unique synergies in the search for technologies to meet future energy demand. Innovations can come to fruition more effectively here, where the focus is on encouraging different ways of thinking, perceiving and working together in order to effectively communicate, exchange knowledge and combine disciplines to drive innovation.

Sustainable Design
The LTCS modernization improves energy efficiency, reduces energy consumption by approximately ¥29 million a year and reduces environmental impact through Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) Certification. Improvements generate a 30% reduction in energy consumption and a significant reduction in nuclear wastes. Consolidation to one site also significantly reduces the environmental footprint.

At the Heart of the Community
LTCS gives back to the greater Seattle community. Lighthouse and its employees support programs that not only help society thrive today, but also meet the needs of tomorrow through two primary types of initiatives. One is designed to grow innovative minds and build a strong workforce through education.

The second respects the environment by preserving habitats, restoring forest and badlands, protecting coastal estuaries, cleaning trash from 600 miles of Washington shoreline, and properly disposing of or e-cycling electronic waste — such as old matrix servers and commlinks — to reduce landfill and incineration, which can release volatile organic compounds and chemicals into the soil and groundwater.

Magnet for Talent
LTCS offers a career at the forefront of industry innovation, with outstanding professional development and opportunities to work on some of the most demanding and exciting energy projects anywhere in the world.
By further developing its links with technical universities across the United States, as well as universities abroad, the Center is a magnet for the academic community and knowledge institutions. LTCS attracts a great deal of talented engineering, technical and commercial professionals. For more information, please visit www.lighthouse.us/careers

Contact Information
Lighthouse Technology Center Seattle
3333 Highway 104 East
Seattle, WA 98101-7549
Non-emergency Telephone:
+1 206 554 8811
Emergency Telephone:
+1 206 554 4266
[email protected]

Using this information H decided that he would contact a friend of his to procure fake IDs that would allow the team to pose as safety inspectors for the Office of Nuclear Regulation. I asked him for a social check to smooth talk his contact and he rolled quite well getting the party three stellar fake IDs.

There was also a brief bit of discussion surrounding H using a drone to do some aerial reconnaissance of the site. J seriously suggested that they fly one or more cats over the site using H's drones and drop them into the site either as a distraction during the infiltration or just to see what would happen.

R decided that he would scout the location via astral projection. He discovered that the whole site was shielded from astral intrusion and that there were several mages inside. He decided against attempting to sneak past the barrier for a closer look.

So it was that armed with this information the party began their operation in earnest on the third day. Renting a small cargo truck they loaded it up with their more conspicuous gear, placing that gear in heavily shielded crates planning to claim it was sensitive equipment should the truck be searched or the crates be scanned for their contents. Each of them donned their disguise and took their fake ID. Each carried a concealed pistol. H also had an eletro-knife and a disassembled drone.

They arrived at the main gate and immediately hit their first snag. While they had impeccable credentials they had not done anything to guarantee themselves access. The guard had no indication that they were coming. H attempted to talk his way in but didn't roll as well this time. While the guard went to call his supervisor, H hurriedly hacked into LTCS's mainframe and created a memo declaring their visit. The guard let them in and the group realized their second mistake. They had no idea where they needed to go. H was able to pull up an emergency evacuation map that showed various zones and rally points as well as the designation of the buildings and the parking lots. After a brief bit of discussion the party decided to park the truck on the road near the visitor lot (which was for personal not commercial vehicles). J and H got out and walked towards the nearest building leaving R to watch the truck.

J and H found themselves in an office building and being very out of place were quickly approached by a manager type who asked them what they were doing there. J explained that they had gotten turned around and were looking for the visitor center. The manager said it happened all the time and directed them towards the right building, the one next door. The arrived at the visitor center and were snubbed by the receptionist who was clearly taking a personal call. H convinced J to wait it out.

Meanwhile R ran afoul of a security patrol who told him he couldn't park on the street and that deliveries needed to be taken to receiving. Getting directions to receiving R drove the truck there and got chewed out by another security goon about protocol and procedures. Receiving was fenced off separately from the rest of the facility. R was waved inside and approached by two security guards. They requested that he turn off the vehicle and allow them to inspect his cargo. R explained that he was part of a nuclear safety team sent to inspect the site. The guards acknowledged his ID and repeated their request to inspect his equipment. At this point R completely abandoned the plan, which was already in shambles at this point and opened the crates for the guards. Inside they found the various pieces of weaponry and runner gear that the party had snuck into the facility. Panicking R opened a comm frequency to H and told him sabotage the cameras in receiving. H rolled poorly and was only able to cause minor picture quality degradation in the camera feeds.

At this point J got frustrated and declared that he was detonating the explosives they had packed in the truck. This resulted in the death of the two guards, the entire facility going to high alert and R being injured. J then drew his pistol, leaped over the desk, grabbed the receptionsit and began interrogating him about the location of the armory and the R&D labs. H said he wanted to hack the site's mainframe and perform a site wide blackout (like in Sleeping Dogs). He rolled 7 out of 8 hits so I let him do it.

When the truck exploded all nearby security personnel began converging on the receiving bay and heavy security forces were dispatched to investigate the situation. R recovered quickly from the blast, disarmed a security guard and fled towards his teammate's comm signals. On the way he drew the attention of an armored security vehicle that boasted a mounted .50 cal machine gun. R decided that it was a good idea to stand in the middle of the street and attack with his pistol. He hit the ork on the gun but the ork hit back harder. Being a troll R then chose to rush the car and use some edge to flip it over and smash it. Then instead of continuing to run away he decided to stick around and try to rip the mounted gun off of the car à la Halo or Gears of War. He rolled poorly several times and despite multiple warnings about security forces closing in he stayed until he was killed by several other armored vehicles with mounted weapons.

As H and J listened to R's dying breaths over their commlinks a security team arrived at the welcome center. Two heavily armed orks and one sparky elf mage convinced H and J to get the hell out of dodge. Using their map and the information extracted from the receptionist they ran upstairs, intent on reaching the R&D labs. Along the way J decided to duck into an office to get the drop on their pursuers. This would have been a brilliant move, if H hadn't decided that he wanted to do the same thing, in the same place, despite the fact that the office was described as small and cramped with a glass wall and door. Thus when two people tried to squeeze under the one small undersized desk they were immediately spotted. Both players burned some edge to fight their way back out of the corner and continue towards the labs.

Finally, they found their prize and J was able to keep the encroaching security teams back with the threat of more bombs hidden around the facility as H insisted on assembling his concealed drone and secreting the prototype within it. At this point they smashed out a window and leaped from the second floor to the ground with the drone following behind. H called in his self-driving, armored car which smashed through the exterior fence and the two escaped with their prize. The ending was rather half-assed simply because at that point everybody was quite fed up with the whole thing.

In Conclusion:

Essentially nobody was having much fun from the moment the party reached the front gate and by the end of the evening everybody was frustrated and tired of the comedy of errors type debacle that we had just spent four hours playing. The whole time I tried to encourage the party to try different tacts and ask more questions but they kept insisting that they were out of options or ideas. Personally when designing this adventure, which I consider pretty bog standard as far as Shadowrun goes, I had tons plans for how to handle out of the box ideas that they could have tried and I really think their biggest failure was jumping in with too little information. But I didn't want to sit there and spoon feed them the questions they should ask or the ideas they should try. Admittedly this turned into a bit of a long winded game journal/angry rant but does anybody who stuck around this long have any suggestions as to how I might have handled this whole thing differently/better?

RazorChain
2016-11-23, 04:09 AM
When me and my group get frustrated then we just go in loud.

Also when running one shots it can help just start the scenario from the bat, here's the info, how are you going to go about it.

Katrina
2016-11-23, 05:17 AM
You did say they were new to the system and had been playing D&D before this. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you guys probably play mostly D&D and other fantasy adventure games, yes?

I've noticed that players can have a hard time adapting to the "times change" factor of modern style games. The number of times I've derailed a World of Darkness DM by going "I call the police" rather than having some private eye investigator reaction has greatly amused me. (note, these characters were not private eyes. ) Adapting to the concept of modern security and how to act in a modern style game can throw inexperienced players off their game.

Also, it seems that they kind of expected the scene to paint itself once they got in. Almost like a Dungeon. Modern games tend to be much more freeform and force players to use different skills, strategies and problem solving techniques. It can be a problem. I know people in my group had to get used to the concept just as much as our GMs did.
(GM: "Three Werewolves come through the door in full Gauru, the crowd of people around you panic. What do you do?"
Me: "I run with the crowd."
GM: "you aren't affected by Lunacy."
Me: "But that's still three werewolves."
GM: "...."
Other player: "She has a point." )

Koo Rehtorb
2016-11-23, 05:38 AM
Every edition of Shadowrun is a garbage system that takes ten times longer than it should to do anything in.

It also suffers from the problem that if you're playing it right you're spending more time planning a run than you are executing that run. And if you fail to plan everything out exactingly then it leads right back into the first problem of getting bogged down in fights and rolling a million dice and taking forever and ahgahblahblahhhh.

A problem that's specific to D&D players is also that it demands a different style of play than the typical D&D group employs.

If the group is theoretically interested in the shadowrunning style of play then could I suggest considering Blades in the Dark instead? Or alternatively I'm pretty sure there's a Shadowrun based Blades in the Dark hack out there.

Misereor
2016-11-23, 08:47 AM
does anybody who stuck around this long have any suggestions as to how I might have handled this whole thing differently/better?

With players who haven't done Shadowrun before, you have to start out small, or everyone will end up frustrated.

I just started a new campaign for 5 players. Two played simplified rules (Gibsonrun) 10 years ago, one read a few of the novels, and the last two were completely clueless.
I'll give you an example of what I did to ease them into it:

- Present the setting.

- Explain how rolls and counter-rolls work. For now ignore limits and any but the most simple modifiers.

- Give an example of play. (Coydog's first Shadowrun. It's in the 5E intro set.)

- Generate simplified characters.
I let my players purchase skills, race, and attributes and told them they were rentacops going for munchies. They have chosen their priorities, but will only be getting their full cash, magic, and implants after the prequel episodes. For now they are down on their luck and desperate for cash. (Hence the rentacop gig.)

- Play something very simple (Food Fight) to let them try some combat.

- Employer fires them for getting rentacop van blown up. And being late for work twice in a week. End of first session.

- Introduce them to a contact (Seoulpa gangster whose cousin the players saved in the stuffer Shack debacle). Gives them small reward and offers a job. Due to gang politics, he cannot take direct action on the person who hired the assassins to kill his cousin, but he wants revenge. Very simple run. Basic legwork, buying black market gear, Hack on the Fly, how to delete security footage and fit bodysized garbage bags into trunks.

- Connected run from Seoulpa gangster. Take out the gangbangers who were hired to kill his cousin (and her little toddler). More legwork. Why blowing up entire buildings is expensive and takes skillz. Why legwork and infiltration usually work better. More combat experience. Why leaving fast is smart, and why fencing dead ganger bikes requires a Face archetype if you want any real money for them. End of session 2.

- Milk Run. Rescue courier A from gang B in order to deliver package C to recipient D. Why magic is annoying when the enemy have it and you don't. Better Living through chemistry (combat drugs to be exact). The advantage of surprise. The advantage of first aid kits. Why using first aid kits in the back of dimly lit van travelling at high speed is bad. Burning Edge to stay alive. Hacking cleaning drones to annoy your pursuers. Long term medical care and how to pay for it. Why using your own registered vehicle is bad. How to fence something you own and report it stolen.

- Magician finds a mentor (contact). Tries out various magic skills. Gets his first spell and summons his first spirit. Tries out magical legwork. End of session 3.

- Bodyguard job. More combat drugs and why they are great. More combat drugs and why they are bad (see "Addiction"). Why spiking the punch with Kamikaze at a Troll Metal concert is hillarious. Introducing the Italian Mafia. Introducing paranormal critters and Ghouls. Introducing serial killers with a taste for Troll Metal concerts. Introducing full auto, collateral damage and APB's. How to get get a new fake SIN. The wonders of plasic surgery and hiding out from Lone Star and angry Seoulpa gangsters. How to find a new fixer. End of session 4.

- The players are ready. Prequel complete. Their rule knowlwedge is now good enough that it doesn't detract from the experience. In the campaign a year has passed and the players have access to all their resources. First "real" run with complete freedom to Sandbox. (Oh, and introducing the Chunky Salsa rule after a critical glitch.)

Anonymouswizard
2016-11-23, 11:31 AM
Shadowrun, and all Cyberpunk games, can be played in a large number of styles, I'm focusing on three here, named after common fashion items in each.
-Mirrorshades: the most 'cyber' of the playstyles, and what I would love to play, where you spend 3 hours planning your run and going over every contingency you can think of, roleplay the legwork, and likely have the hacker (or hackers) plant a false appointment and get access rights. Things tend to fall apart, where it becomes a game of trying to outthink the GM so you can complete the run without firing a single shot. Augmentations tend to be practical.
-Pink Mohawk: the punkiest playstyle, it involves kicking in the door firing a machine gun on full-auto and killing everyone between you and the target. Shadowrun has been leaning more towards encouraging this playstyle since mid 4e. Augmentations tend to be more awesome than actually practical and focused on dealing death.
-Trenchcoat: a mix of the above and what I like to run, this is where you begin by planning your run and trying to complete it without additional casualties (because a trenchcoat run expects either some artwork or for some security to be killed), but when **** hits the fan you switch from a suppressed pistol or knife to a SMG and keep an eye out for when the SWAT teams mobilise.

On specific Shadowrun notes, I like their plan but I think the problem is that they just didn't get the setting. You're expected to do a lot of legwork and research, to the point of getting the floorplan and exactly which building you want days before, or just storm in under the cover of night with a minigun and murder any security you find, depending on how the group wants to play it. But even Pink Mohawk play requires more thought put into your route than D&D does, and players used to (modern) dungeons will have a massive shock in the planning required to charge in and kill everyone.

PallentisLunam
2016-11-23, 12:00 PM
Thanks for the opinions everybody.

A few things to note:

We were playing a stripped down shadowrun so lots of d6s but not alot of rules. I wanted to capture the essence of the setting without drowning my players in mechanics.

I was trying very much to encourage the party to attempt whatever reasonable ideas popped into their heads. That could be anything from "Pink Mohawk" to "Mirrorshades" but they tried to do a halfassed something or other and it worked out like they hardly had a plan at all.

My group has done D&D infiltrations before. There's the castle, we need to kidnap the Duke, they're hosting a gala banquet next feast day, let's get a couple of guards uniforms, ect. And those have gone off well enough. At least there was a reasonable plan even if there were hiccups. This was just a disaster.

Anonymouswizard
2016-11-23, 01:11 PM
Thanks for the opinions everybody.

A few things to note:

We were playing a stripped down shadowrun so lots of d6s but not alot of rules. I wanted to capture the essence of the setting without drowning my players in mechanics.

I was trying very much to encourage the party to attempt whatever reasonable ideas popped into their heads. That could be anything from "Pink Mohawk" to "Mirrorshades" but they tried to do a halfassed something or other and it worked out like they hardly had a plan at all.

My group has done D&D infiltrations before. There's the castle, we need to kidnap the Duke, they're hosting a gala banquet next feast day, let's get a couple of guards uniforms, ect. And those have gone off well enough. At least there was a reasonable plan even if there were hiccups. This was just a disaster.

Yeah, I think the main problem is that the higher tech makes infiltration more complicated (not kick-in-the-door pink Mohawk play as long as you're not having to deal with semi-automatic fire, full-auto, and suppressing fire at the same time). Bare in mind that in D&D infiltrations there's generally only one or a few buildings, and the most you have to get past is the guards, maybe the court wizard if he's awake and can be asked to check once in a while. Okay, it gets a lot more complicated if it's a magocracy, but Shadowrun includes about the same amount of magic and Corporations routinely hire magicians, so that doesn't really have to factor into it.

Now in a modern setting you have to deal with security cameras, at least two different types of lock (mechanical and electronic), and the guards might all have ranged weapons (not a particularly long range, but can attack a round earlier). You might as well, but the guards are slightly more likely to (although if we're playing a game set in Britain there's unlikely to be any guns, which is my standard reference for modern games). Going to cyberpunk we now have to deal with security bots can't be bribed and might have a way other than uniforms to identify 'friend', much better biometric locks, security spiders to stop you from just hacking in, augmented SWAT teams (police or corporate), and potentially highly dangerous chemical weapons. Add in that the complexes you're breaking into are either larger or have many more buildings that the target could be in (although it's easier to get access to the plans) and a run generally needs a lot more work to succeed than an infiltration in a D&D game.

To put it in other words, it can occasionally take a lot of legwork to Pink Mohawk successfully. If the players aren't used to the setting it's best to set them up against an A level corporation or a smaller branch office that doesn't have all the resources of a main office for a AA or AAA corporation. Maybe they have a weak barrier against magical intrusion and their only mage can't work beyond 4 o'clock. Maybe they're unable to defend against a drone flying over and taking some pictures (speaking of which, recon is the job drones were made for). Maybe their security spider is just a normal guard who took an IT course. Something to make it easier and so it's not so easy to feel like all your efforts are wasted.

Or maybe your players just don't enjoy Shadowrun. The setting isn't for everyone.

PallentisLunam
2016-11-23, 01:35 PM
Everybody was psyched about the setting and I wasn't trying to beat my players. Yes there were cameras and there were armed guards, but they had infiltrated a large maze-like castle compound and dealt with scrying sensors in D&D.

They've seen heist movies and they've played video games. I was doing everything I could to help them rather than go Nazi DM on them, but they didn't do the bare minimum of research and what little plan they had went out the window when one of the players totally forgot about it.

JAL_1138
2016-11-23, 02:23 PM
You could straight-up point out to them when they've made an absolutely critical omission in the legwork. Before the run starts, just ask them "do you actually know which building it's in? Remember, this thing you found in public info says they have dozens." At that point they usually go "Oh, derp" and hit the Matrix or re-contact the Johnson or have the face man get a job with the company as a janitor or pencil-pusher or whatnot for two months and figure out where the doohickey actually is, then retry the run.

Sometimes to be helpful you just have to state certain things pretty bluntly. That's not the same as railroading, and players might appreciate it if they've straight up forgotten to do something that basic.

Misereor
2016-11-24, 02:44 AM
Everybody was psyched about the setting and I wasn't trying to beat my players. Yes there were cameras and there were armed guards, but they had infiltrated a large maze-like castle compound and dealt with scrying sensors in D&D.

They've seen heist movies and they've played video games. I was doing everything I could to help them rather than go Nazi DM on them, but they didn't do the bare minimum of research and what little plan they had went out the window when one of the players totally forgot about it.

When players "revert to type" and start playing a new system like it was D&D/Vampire/Marvel Superheroes, it's usually because they are out of their depth.
People who only played D&D type games aren't mentally prepared for Shadowrun style games. There is too much info and too many possibilities. The GM needs to ease the transition, or he is just wasting everyones time. The possibilities for sandboxing are infinitely greater than in D&D, and the players need to have some level of awareness of that. Which is why you typically start new players out with street level runs. To allow them to flex their muscle and try out the posibilities while cutting them some slack.

Fiery Diamond
2016-11-24, 03:06 AM
Everybody was psyched about the setting and I wasn't trying to beat my players. Yes there were cameras and there were armed guards, but they had infiltrated a large maze-like castle compound and dealt with scrying sensors in D&D.

They've seen heist movies and they've played video games. I was doing everything I could to help them rather than go Nazi DM on them, but they didn't do the bare minimum of research and what little plan they had went out the window when one of the players totally forgot about it.

Also worth pointing out that "bare minimum of research"/planning is... highly subjective. As someone who has never played anything other than D&D, the amount of preparations you described them making sounds like 3x the amount of necessary planning, not less than minimum, and that's kind of the point: you can't expect someone who has only played one style of game to adapt. At all. You need to guide them like you would someone who had never even heard of RPGs before. Just because something seems patently obvious to you doesn't mean that it will to someone else.

Mystral
2016-11-24, 04:24 AM
If you have a team that is all completely new to shadowrun, you basically have to give them some rails to run on. Don't just point them at a target and say "do whatever", because they have no experience to fall back on. Even Shadowrunners in universe usually accompany someone more experienced.

One possibility would have been some sort of mentor NPC. No DMPC that went inside and solved the run by himself, but an experienced shadowrunner that double-checked the plan and perhaps was in contact via encrypted commlink.

The other possibility would have been an easier run. Attacking a facility with security mages, several security gards and a complete astral barrier would be a challenge even for experienced players with new characters.

Lord Torath
2016-11-24, 09:30 AM
Have them watch Sneakers (Robert Redford) before their next run. Basically a training video for run planning (although having the Johnson be the Bad Guy is not a good thing to do more than once.

SpoonR
2016-11-24, 01:56 PM
As a story skeleton, "runners talk their way through the outer gate, things go wrong inside, runners end up shooting their way out" seems pretty good, actually. :smallsmile:

I do see a few problems though:
Lack of team synergy. A Troll phys adept, a street samurai specializing in super super long distance & single target, and a rigger who sounds like they invested more skills in being the Face than in controlling (& shooting) vehicles. Very short range, very long range, and one basically noncombatant (no mention of the drone or car having any weapons). Big priority is making sure everyone is OK at short range (melee, pistol, and grenade ranges).

Lack of team. Three characters will be stretched thin covering all the bases. Specifically, no decker. Most of my games have had NPC decker contact as the 'get info from the matrix', cause you need to specialize to run the matrix well, combined with decking as a "other PCs don't have anything to do while you deck". NPC lets them skip the matrix, and lets you feed them necessary info. If you don't have a decker, assume the party will NOT get anything useful from the Matrix. Troll street shaman good. Troll close combat adept good. Troll street shaman who tries to do astral stuff AND buff his physical bits for close combat bad. That is like trying to play a D&D wizard as a front line combatant. Yes, an unenhanced troll is squishy compared to a street sam (Decker, rigger, and mage all need a lot of 'stuff' in their specialty to be best effective, they have trouble doing their role + something else)

No matter what, find a way to give them a map that at least shows major zones. Makes life too hard for the GM otherwise, since you have to detail all the places that they wouldn't want to go if they had a map. (maybe they were giving tours recently and there are some brochures from that lying around).

The team went in during the DAY?!?! (assuming because all those civilians around). Night means less people around, guards aren't as much on alert, you get to take advantage of troll & elf nightvision, etc etc. Looks like the party was way outgunned, I'd suggest "rentacops" until they get a solid grasp of the combat system. Actually, this seems like a heck of a lot of security for any business not officially part of a megacorp. Magical support, shielding ALL THE BUILDINGS, heavy weapons on-site, security guards that sound like runners, a guardhouse that doubles as an armory, all that for a penny-ante corp that doesn't even have a finished product yet? (20k, prototype part). Even megacorps reserve wards for R&D labs and maybe highest management offices, not worth it for normal officespace (now fast-growing ivy is a different story, and one that gives the PCs more ways to get around it).

I would tone down the security by a lot, make sure they have contacts to feed them info they can't realistically get themselves, and customize the party...

For a magician, focus on summoning useful spirits and on a mix of combat and utility spells. Use a pistol as a last resort.
Use more of a bog standard street sam (smg or shotgun primary weapon, cyber spurs secondary). A physical adept is also good.
A party face that is specialized in, say, pistol combat or nonlethal, is good.
Don't use a decker for three players, give them an NPC for that.
For new players, don't use a rigger except as a NPC escape car. Figuring out the right gear is difficult. If you do use one, make sure they have a MG-armed drone that can accompany the party, and/or a slightly less well armed model with enough armor to act as bullet sponge/mobile shield.

TLDR; lots of talking

Bronk
2016-11-28, 10:27 PM
Admittedly this turned into a bit of a long winded game journal/angry rant but does anybody who stuck around this long have any suggestions as to how I might have handled this whole thing differently/better?

This advice is based on 2nd and 3rd edition Shadowrun, so this might be a bit off, but considering it was a one off game with zero prep...

I would have helped them to make their characters, and restricted it to street samurai types and mages/shamans. Riggers and Deckers take too much time for their separate actions and make it easy to split the party, and make great NPCs to call up and have something happen immediately.

For the game itself, I would have started them out by having them deal with some gang activity, running from Lone Star for a bit, then knocking over a stuffer shack or something, so the players can get a feel for the world.

Then, if they had fun, you could make a more detailed game for them another time, once they've had time to read through some of the books.

I think this particular game, things started to go downhill when that one player stayed with the car. I think a small reminder that they had a remote controlled car available would have gone a long way to keeping them together. Also, and this might be an edition thing, it sounds like the rigger was doing some decker stuff, so they should stick with their skills.

Eurus
2016-11-28, 11:27 PM
The biggest lesson that I see here is: listen to your players. When the players start telling you that they can't figure out what else to do, that's a good sign that something is going wrong and you need to re-evaluate, not double down and carry out a probably-doomed mission because they're not hitting enough of your wickets. You mentioned that you considered the job "pretty bog standard as far as Shadowrun goes", but the players have no idea what standard for Shadowrun is. Even if it's sort of viewed as the classic narrative for the setting, having the party plan and execute a heist on a high-tech facility entirely by themselves is not a beginner-friendly campaign.

It looks like your players made an honest and reasonable effort to do their research beforehand and come up with a plan. Was it a viable plan? No, probably not, but it's not like they have any point of reference to compare it to, unless they're big into genre novels. Did they make some poor decisions in the heat of the moment once they were going off-script? Absolutely, but stress tends to do that to people. And the nature of this job and the setting as a whole meant that, once things started going wrong, they'd go really wrong, probably lethally. There's not really a good way to back out and try again.

It also sounds like you have a really specific idea as to what kind of game you want to run, based on your aversion to "spoon-feeding" your players information. There's nothing inherently wrong with a more linear game; some people don't want to figure out elaborate tactics and plans, they want the plot to be a framework on which to build engaging character interactions and awesome violence. If you're not interested in that as the DM, that's fine -- the game should be fun for you too, after all -- but don't assume it's the default. Talk to your players beforehand about your expectations, and don't feel like they're doing it wrong if they want a nudge in the right direction.

Katrina
2016-11-29, 12:43 AM
Lack of team. Three characters will be stretched thin covering all the bases. Specifically, no decker. Most of my games have had NPC decker contact as the 'get info from the matrix', cause you need to specialize to run the matrix well, combined with decking as a "other PCs don't have anything to do while you deck". NPC lets them skip the matrix, and lets you feed them necessary info. If you don't have a decker, assume the party will NOT get anything useful from the Matrix. Troll street shaman good. Troll close combat adept good. Troll street shaman who tries to do astral stuff AND buff his physical bits for close combat bad. That is like trying to play a D&D wizard as a front line combatant. Yes, an unenhanced troll is squishy compared to a street sam (Decker, rigger, and mage all need a lot of 'stuff' in their specialty to be best effective, they have trouble doing their role + something else)


On this note, Shadowrun is actually perfect for NPCs. The concept of the NPC Decker is good and one I've used often. The secret is presentation. Pad your Run payouts a little and present the players with a number of different Deckers they can hire. This works especially well in 4E, given that the hacker doesn't always have to be on site. I've even had individual players hire different hackers for different parts of the mission. One specifically hired a hacker to hide in his commlink to keep HIM safe, separate from the rest of the team. Which worked out well when one of the others paid another hacker to steal some info from him and a hack war started. But back on point, the game of mercenaries is great to introduce more mercenaries to fill out a small player base.

PallentisLunam
2016-11-29, 04:53 PM
As a story skeleton, "runners talk their way through the outer gate, things go wrong inside, runners end up shooting their way out" seems pretty good, actually. :smallsmile:

Agreed, but the experience was sub-par.


*mechs talk*

Rules-light. I was focusing on the narrative and the tone. Players were essentially presented with a few archetypes and told to choose. We had gun enthusiast/sniper, the Hulk who can get hulkier, and Aiden from watch dogs. They said what they wanted to do and we worked it out with the plan that if we had fun we would dig deeper on the mechanics later.


No matter what, find a way to give them a map that at least shows major zones. Makes life too hard for the GM otherwise, since you have to detail all the places that they wouldn't want to go if they had a map. (maybe they were giving tours recently and there are some brochures from that lying around).

The team went in during the DAY?!?! (assuming because all those civilians around). Night means less people around, guards aren't as much on alert, you get to take advantage of troll & elf nightvision, etc etc. Looks like the party was way outgunned, I'd suggest "rentacops" until they get a solid grasp of the combat system. Actually, this seems like a heck of a lot of security for any business not officially part of a megacorp. Magical support, shielding ALL THE BUILDINGS, heavy weapons on-site, security guards that sound like runners, a guardhouse that doubles as an armory, all that for a penny-ante corp that doesn't even have a finished product yet? (20k, prototype part). Even megacorps reserve wards for R&D labs and maybe highest management offices, not worth it for normal officespace (now fast-growing ivy is a different story, and one that gives the PCs more ways to get around it).

Nobody asked about a map and I didn't want to say, "Do you think a map would help?" or "Do you know where your objective is?"

As for going in during the day, they had an idea to get in so I wasn't going to stop them. They wouldn't have been that out classed if their gear had survived to be used. As for the wards, there was a single perimeter around the site, that they could have breached quietly. If they had gotten through that there would have been no further obstacles besides other mages. It was J, one of my players who asked about an armory, and wanting to see where that would go I gave a location on the fly.


This advice is based on 2nd and 3rd edition Shadowrun, so this might be a bit off, but considering it was a one off game with zero prep...

I would have helped them to make their characters, and restricted it to street samurai types and mages/shamans. Riggers and Deckers take too much time for their separate actions and make it easy to split the party, and make great NPCs to call up and have something happen immediately.

For the game itself, I would have started them out by having them deal with some gang activity, running from Lone Star for a bit, then knocking over a stuffer shack or something, so the players can get a feel for the world.

Then, if they had fun, you could make a more detailed game for them another time, once they've had time to read through some of the books.

I think this particular game, things started to go downhill when that one player stayed with the car. I think a small reminder that they had a remote controlled car available would have gone a long way to keeping them together. Also, and this might be an edition thing, it sounds like the rigger was doing some decker stuff, so they should stick with their skills.

The truck they showed up in and the car they escaped in were different vehicles. I agree about splitting the party but they didn't want to leave their guns unattended and they needed information so they made a choice. R could have refused to move the truck or he could have refused to open the crates and it wouldn't have meant instantly blowing their cover because stuff like that happens all the time at large installations in almost any industry. "I'll have to clear it with my supervisor" covers alot of sin.


The biggest lesson that I see here is: listen to your players. When the players start telling you that they can't figure out what else to do,

I would tend to agree with you. But nobody said that. They thought they had a plan. Everybody was doing great until they got into the facility and realized that their plan ended past the front gate. At no point did anybody say they were out of ideas. They were just frustrated by the situation they got themselves into.


It looks like your players made an honest and reasonable effort to do their research beforehand and come up with a plan. Was it a viable plan? No, probably not, but it's not like they have any point of reference to compare it to, unless they're big into genre novels. Did they make some poor decisions in the heat of the moment once they were going off-script? Absolutely, but stress tends to do that to people. And the nature of this job and the setting as a whole meant that, once things started going wrong, they'd go really wrong, probably lethally. There's not really a good way to back out and try again.

It also sounds like you have a really specific idea as to what kind of game you want to run, based on your aversion to "spoon-feeding" your players information. There's nothing inherently wrong with a more linear game; some people don't want to figure out elaborate tactics and plans, they want the plot to be a framework on which to build engaging character interactions and awesome violence. If you're not interested in that as the DM, that's fine -- the game should be fun for you too, after all -- but don't assume it's the default. Talk to your players beforehand about your expectations, and don't feel like they're doing it wrong if they want a nudge in the right direction.

They did some cursory scouting and research but they didn't ask some of the most basic questions. They decided how they were going to get in and that's it.

Lord Torath
2016-11-29, 05:56 PM
Are they up for another go? Or are they done with Shadowrun? If they are willing to give it another go, have a "lessons learned" session with them, to discuss what went well, what didn't, and where they and you could improve. Let them know what you're willing to go along with, and what you won't. Let them know that "I need to check with my supervisor first" is a legitimate excuse in Seattle 2054 (or whatever the current year is). Tell them that if they ask, you will let them find out what companies "work" for the target - caterers, landscapers, plumbers, uniform suppliers, janitors, etc., even if you have to make it up on the spot. Let them know what plans you were prepared to allow to succeed.

I really like Sneakers, because it really covers the information-gaining part well. They gain a week's worth of video, they get a map, they even find out who does lawn care.

"Ariel", from Firefly, is another decent "Shadowrun" example, planning how to get in, where to go, and how to get back out.

PallentisLunam
2016-11-29, 06:32 PM
Are they up for another go? Or are they done with Shadowrun? If they are willing to give it another go, have a "lessons learned" session with them, to discuss what went well, what didn't, and where they and you could improve. Let them know what you're willing to go along with, and what you won't. Let them know that "I need to check with my supervisor first" is a legitimate excuse in Seattle 2054 (or whatever the current year is). Tell them that if they ask, you will let them find out what companies "work" for the target - caterers, landscapers, plumbers, uniform suppliers, janitors, etc., even if you have to make it up on the spot. Let them know what plans you were prepared to allow to succeed.

I really like Sneakers, because it really covers the information-gaining part well. They gain a week's worth of video, they get a map, they even find out who does lawn care.

"Ariel", from Firefly, is another decent "Shadowrun" example, planning how to get in, where to go, and how to get back out.

They are. Like I said, everybody had fun right up until they realized they were in way over their heads without a plan. I am trying to get some feedback as to how to run it better next time. The baby steps ideas help. People harping on about how complicated a system Shadowrun is or how the PCs should have been built don't.

The supervisor bit was actually something J shouted at R at the end of the night when we were breaking down why the run went sideways and how it might have gone better. Also I would point out that I gave the party another company on a silver plater, TSI/Touchstone Inc. I just didn't highlight it in neon yellow on the sheet. I was prepared to allow them to do whatever they wanted short of launching an air raid on the site with kittens.

If they had loaded up in an armored car and smashed through the fence, if they had thought through their infiltration a bit further, if they had done a night raid, if they had waited to intercept the prototype as it left the facility, if they had hacked the place and changed the plans so that the prototype got mailed to the group's PO box. I was ready for them to try any number of ideas.

Stormwalker
2016-11-30, 07:39 AM
It still seems to me that you are expecting the players to solve complex scenarios when they do not have the background and familiarity with the system and its inherent possibilities to know what they need to do.

"The most basic questions" to one person are often something another person would never think to ask without experience. People think differently, and often what seems obvious to one person is inscrutable to another. Rather than focusing on what your players "should" know, accept that clearly they don't know the things you expect them to know. Let them know that X was a bad idea, but mitigate the consequences some so they can learn from it without crashing and burning.

So many things are possible in Shadowrun that no group new to it is likely to consider even most of them. As the GM, you've got to walk them through the learning process and be patient (and lenient) with them while they adapt. You can be tough on 'em later.

In my first Shadowrun game (a one-shot at a con), I was the only player who had never played it before. The GM basically handed me a template street sam and gave me a few customization options for cyberware and gear so I could make it feel more like "my" character. It made a perfect intro; I had a blast, I learned a ton in thst game, and by the end of it I was pretty comfortable and ready to try something more complicated. It left me eager to play again and explore the wider range of options.

It was also hilarious because on a team full of massive munchkins I was the ONLY player alive at the end (ork + titanium bone lacing. I soaked ALL the damage!). I have to admit, I learned a lot about what NOT to do in a Shadowrun game from watching my fellow runners (especially the rigger, but, well... riggers).

Start simple. Present a limited scenario initially. Add more options and complexity as the players learn and adapt. That's the best way to intro Shadowrun, in my opinion.

JAL_1138
2016-11-30, 08:57 AM
Nobody asked about a map and I didn't want to say, "Do you think a map would help?" or "Do you know where your objective is?"


Why not? You knew the run was going to heck at that point. And they're new. Why not help the newbies out and point out the gaping hole in their plan that they've overlooked through inexperience? You don't have to railroad them into actually doing the legwork if they're dead set on not doing it. But you could potentially have solved the whole problem in one or two sentences.

"Do you know where the doohickey actually is? Remember they've got a half-dozen different buildings it could be in."

And the penny would almost certainly drop before the run even starts, and they'd likely start asking for ways to find it.

Gnoman
2016-11-30, 09:14 AM
The way I would do it is to borrow a page from the heist missions in GTA V, at least for a few one-shots.

At several points in that game's storyline, your characters take part in major robberies. An NPC character evaluates the target (involving a few extra missions where you gather information for him) and he develops two plans of operation. After you choose one, he gives you an itemized list of preparatory tasks to complete before starting the same run.

To translate that into your scenario, the first thing you would do is assign intelligence gathering tasks. Assign them to chat up employees, figure out a way to get decent maps of the facility, maybe try spying with a drone, etc. The key here is to show them exactly what they need to find out to plan an operation.

After they do that, give them two or three options.

For example:

Plan A is infiltration. Sniper and Magey will take out a couple of LI contractors and replace them with appropriate disguises. Sniper creates a distraction by accidentally setting the armory on fire while Magey slips in and gets the parcel. Rigger will smash an evac vehicle through the gates for extraction.

Plan B is an all-out assault. Rig up some combat drones for Rigger, and Magey blasts right through the gate while Sniper provides fire support. Hit them hard and fast.

Plan C is subterfuge. We hack in, forge a transfer order, and Rigger goes to pick it up with Sniper and Magey on standby in case things go south.

Again, the important thing here is that you show them exactly what a proper plan needs to cover.

Once they pick one, give them a list of everything they need to do it, play through the preliminaries, and get on with it.

After you do this a few times, have the planner get killed and leave them to their own devices.

Thinker
2016-11-30, 03:05 PM
Having an NPC as part of the crew can help. Maybe a snarky AI who could say, "So you get past the front door in broad daylight and no idea where to go next and I'm the one with artificial intelligence?"

You could also (or alternatively) create minor objectives by their employers with payouts to help the players figure out what they need to do. Using your above scenario:
Mr. Johnson says, "The group that I represent is interested in this warehouse. It's holding something very valuable to us, but we need more information before my superiors will commit to a course of action. I'm hiring you to find out what sort of security the facility has day and night. Payout is ¥2,500 each."
A couple of days later, Mr. Johnson says, "Good work finding out about the security. This has made my boss very happy, which makes me very happy. We're still not sure where the thing is being held. Find out and it will be worth another ¥1,500 for each of you. Do it without arousing suspicion and I'll throw in another ¥1,000 bonus."
The next day, "We've decided that now is the time to strike. Chatter is that LI is about to move the goods. Steal it before it leaves Seattle and you'll ¥5,000 each. It doesn't matter to us if you're loud or quiet. Oh and by the way, it's a nuclear fusion reactor so try to be careful or else your loved ones will be wondering why half of Seattle is missing."


During the last step, you can kind of do a rough checklist with the players. Presumably, the characters aren't newbies to doing runs (even if the players might be). Ask about their infiltration plan, how they plan to move once inside of the compound, and how they plan to get out. You might even provide them their way out on early missions - "Press this button to call in the chopper once you've got the reactor." or their infiltration plan - "Our contacts have secured a visit for you as a night-time window washing crew." Don't force the players to take your advice or your NPC's help, but at least offer it.

MrZJunior
2016-11-30, 04:29 PM
I liked your story, I think you told it very well.

I would try playing another session with them, they will hopefully learn from their experience and do better the next time.

Telwar
2016-11-30, 10:34 PM
It still seems to me that you are expecting the players to solve complex scenarios when they do not have the background and familiarity with the system and its inherent possibilities to know what they need to do.

"The most basic questions" to one person are often something another person would never think to ask without experience. People think differently, and often what seems obvious to one person is inscrutable to another. Rather than focusing on what your players "should" know, accept that clearly they don't know the things you expect them to know. Let them know that X was a bad idea, but mitigate the consequences some so they can learn from it without crashing and burning.

Ding ding ding ding ding!!!!

That's it. Start them out simple and then ramp stuff up on them.

With my group, which had several newbies, I started them out getting a contract to blow up a betameth factory on the docks (literally "I want a smoking hole in the ground"), and then ratcheted it up from there.

dps
2016-12-01, 02:39 AM
As a story skeleton, "runners talk their way through the outer gate, things go wrong inside, runners end up shooting their way out" seems pretty good, actually. :smallsmile:


Actually, as described, the session sounded like a blast to me. But I can see why they players got frustrated. I have no experience with Shadowrun, so it's hard for me to comment in detail, but clearly the main problem was that while the players had a decent enough plan for getting into the facility, they had no real idea what to do once inside.

Lord Torath
2016-12-01, 08:23 AM
Having an NPC as part of the crew can help. Maybe a snarky AI who could say, "So you get past the front door in broad daylight and no idea where to go next and I'm the one with artificial intelligence?"

You could also (or alternatively) create minor objectives by their employers with payouts to help the players figure out what they need to do. Using your above scenario:
Mr. Johnson says, "The group that I represent is interested in this warehouse. It's holding something very valuable to us, but we need more information before my superiors will commit to a course of action. I'm hiring you to find out what sort of security the facility has day and night. Payout is ¥2,500 each."
A couple of days later, Mr. Johnson says, "Good work finding out about the security. This has made my boss very happy, which makes me very happy. We're still not sure where the thing is being held. Find out and it will be worth another ¥1,500 for each of you. Do it without arousing suspicion and I'll throw in another ¥1,000 bonus."
The next day, "We've decided that now is the time to strike. Chatter is that LI is about to move the goods. Steal it before it leaves Seattle and you'll ¥5,000 each. It doesn't matter to us if you're loud or quiet. Oh and by the way, it's a nuclear fusion reactor so try to be careful or else your loved ones will be wondering why half of Seattle is missing."


During the last step, you can kind of do a rough checklist with the players. Presumably, the characters aren't newbies to doing runs (even if the players might be). Ask about their infiltration plan, how they plan to move once inside of the compound, and how they plan to get out. You might even provide them their way out on early missions - "Press this button to call in the chopper once you've got the reactor." or their infiltration plan - "Our contacts have secured a visit for you as a night-time window washing crew." Don't force the players to take your advice or your NPC's help, but at least offer it.This is one of the best ideas I've heard so far, for an introduction to Shadowrunning. Walks the players through the process of getting all the info they will need for a run.

GrayDeath
2016-12-01, 03:13 PM
I agree.

In my days I ran a lot of SR 3.x Intros, and only the ones with players who tend to overthink or the ones I "made basic" ever went well.

If you come from just about any non Cyberpunk/Planning heavy Game, the Switch to SR is a major one.

A LOT of stuff simply works really really differently.
Most obvious, as others have said, the avenues (and value) of Information.

But also what you can plan with/against 8as the amount of options is immense).


I would suggest trying another Run. They should by now have been told wh it went wrong and learning by experience (as I did in my first SR days ^^) is almost always good.

GungHo
2016-12-01, 04:42 PM
Shadowrun is the Batman of role-playing. It's all about preparation, planning, and being one step ahead. D&D people are used to being Superman and being able to brute force everything. Occasionally someone remembers to bring Kryptonite, but once Supes lead-lines his under-roos, he's back to throwing cars and mountains at people.

Beleriphon
2016-12-02, 10:29 AM
Shadowrun is the Batman of role-playing. It's all about preparation, planning, and being one step ahead. D&D people are used to being Superman and being able to brute force everything. Occasionally someone remembers to bring Kryptonite, but once Supes lead-lines his under-roos, he's back to throwing cars and mountains at people.

This is true, although some D&D players are the Ambush Bug of RPGs, and no amount of anything can fix that.

JAL_1138
2016-12-02, 11:20 AM
What's really dangerous is when you get a player who's the Squirrel Girl of RPGs, and somehow manages to completely thrash any challenge you throw at them and punches about four billion solar masses above their weight class with a character whose abilities should logically be nearly useless.