Non-sucky Soulknife build [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Muggins

2016-11-23, 08:38 AM

Knife to the Soul (13th level) can be optimised pretty easily, especially when combined with the Mind Cripple ability of the Psychic Assassin or the Mental Assault ability of the Lurk. Since it's based off Psychic Strike damage, you can further improve this through feats such as..
Mind Cleave, which restores your psychic strike whenever you "deal a creature enough damage to make it fall." It wouldn't be that far a leap to say that mental stat damage counts, since the effect is more or less the same.
Swift Mind Strike, which lets you charge your psychic strike as a swift action 1/day. Handy in an ambush, because it means you can create a mind blade, charge it, and then immediately execute a psychic strike in a single turn.
Mind Empowerment and Focused Mind Strike give extra damage dice to your psychic strikes, which the wording on Knife to the Soul should be pretty a-okay with you converting into stat damage.
Keep in mind that many enemies (especially low-int, beastlike ones) will have at least one poor mental score for you to target, and that unlike many similar abilities, Knife to the Soul has no type restrictions; running up and one-shotting an iron golem with charisma damage is entirely rules-legal.

Beyond Knife to the Soul, you might want to look into Tashalatora (which Soulknife qualifies for, being a psychic class) or the mind blade shaping feats in Complete Psionic (e.g. Dwarven Urgosh Mind Blade). Psycarnum Blade (from Magic of Incarnum) lets you imbue a semi-permanent damage boost to your mind blade attacks (+1d6/essentia) if you expend your psionic focus, which could be a handy trick, and there are probably a bunch of soulmelds which would be of interest to a soulknife (Airstep Sandals, for instance).

Darrin

2016-11-23, 08:42 AM

Rubbish Arena Challenge II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499010-Rubbish-Arena-Challenge-II-D-amp-D-3-5) involved Soul Knife, might be worth a look.

Kaje

2016-11-23, 08:49 AM

Take the Hidden Talent and Bonus Feats acfs. Ask your dm to let you combine them, taking Hidden Talent as your bonus feat, since it'll be better than most of the other feats you can take. Also probably combine with Kalashtar. Now you've got several 1st level powers and the pp to use them.

That soulbow can be combined with monk, serenity paladin, zen archery, and shiba protector for a nice Wis-SAD build.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-23, 09:10 AM

The psychic warrior's soulbound weapon ACF. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) It's the soulknife's central class feature for the cost of a single bonus feat. And it's not even a particularly powerful option. Just goes to show how much soulknife sucks.

If you have to go soulknife, might I suggest dipping a level in one of the energy variants of pyrokineticist (sonokineticist, acetokineticist, etc) that isn't fire, and use the energy whip touch attacks to improve your ability to hit things with your Medium BAB and MAD Str score? Then a strategic dip or two in a ToB class to give you extra options, and a feat (with DM permission, say, Ancestral Relic) to toss some extra plusses on your mind blade, or possibly on some armor or a shield. With some armor or shield spikes, you could dual-wield (or tri/quad-wield) using various weapon enhancement combos. Spiked armor would be particularly good, since you have a defensive and offensive item in one, and you can't sunder armor.

Vortenger

2016-11-23, 10:19 AM

How about the Psychic Armory? One of the best throwing builds around, near as I can tell. Uses Wis for hit and damage, can throw into melee without provoking, unlimited throwing weapons...etc. You get to fling blades every which way. You can also throw all of the blades for a 20' burst for 1d6 per level for more of a blaster feel if need be, and looks damn good doing it with 20 weapons in orbit around you at any given time. Also using Soulknife Augmented, there are recommendations to give SK's gifted blade manifesting without the archetype, and the new teleporting and utility blade skills are pretty awesome.
And you get to look something like this: http://blogs.c.yimg.jp/res/blog-fd-1c/adam_eve_expert/folder/154541/32/16150032/img_0

The Augmented playtest is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369960-Dreamscarred-Press-Psionics-Augmented-Soulknife), the tools to make a Soulknife not suck lay within. No tier 1 funny business, but enough goodies not to to trash can the class. Check it out!

legomaster00156

2016-11-23, 10:44 AM

I assume they were talking about the 3.5 Soulknife, since it's hard to say that the DSP Soulknife sucks at all.

Mehangel

2016-11-23, 11:23 AM

I assume they were talking about the 3.5 Soulknife, since it's hard to say that the DSP Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) sucks at all.

Fixed that for you by adding a link to class directly so that the OP can easily find, if he had not already.

Zaq

2016-11-23, 11:41 AM

How much Soulknife do you need? I had an Iron Chef build for Spellfire Channeler that keyed off of having 4 levels of Soulknife so that I could eat my own mind blades to charge up spellfire, but I never actually attacked with the mind blade or anything. I can link to it if that would be helpful to you, though I understand if that's not what you're looking for.

Basically, the less Soulknife you use, the better. I think the best you're going to get that's primarily [3.5] Soulknife or Soulknife-related is to go as heavily into Soulbow as possible, since Soulbow is at least interesting (if not exactly overwhelmingly powerful). Focus on archery-related support. Combine TWF and Rapid Shot for way the hell too many attacks per round (using the Lucky mind arrow enhancement to make up for the rapidly stacking penalty to attack rolls—since each mind arrow is unique, Lucky applies to each one, rather than just 1/day). Get some kind of nice bonus damage (even just one die of Sneak Attack will function if you have Craven, though you'll then also need a strong HiPS ability or a way to go invisible on your own terms), and you've got something, at least. If you can afford to dip into Shiba Protector or something similar to start double-dipping on WIS, that would be cool, but it's expensive in terms of feats, so it's not always worthwhile. (Do also have the conversation with your GM about how Soulbow BAB works. By RAW, the numerical enhancement bonuses you get to your mind arrows also apply to your Soulknife base attack bonus, which is kind of cool.)

As far as a melee Soulknife goes? Ugh. Don't. There just isn't a way to make it viable.

And remember that for any circumstances that are remotely normal (you can technically craft bizarre corner cases, but you shouldn't even bother), it's pretty much always a bad idea to spend a move action in combat to charge Psychic Strike. Enjoy the bonus on your first hit, but don't spend an action to recharge it in combat if that action precludes you making a full attack. Ever.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-23, 11:54 AM

Since mind arrows (from soulbow) are treated exactly as arrows with the one exception that you can fire them from your hands if you want to, you can fire them from a actual bow. This isn't terribly useful if you're using a regular bow, but when you start stacking on lots of special weapon abilities, this is a very nice way to get a really powerful ranged weapon in short order, especially with the lucky mind arrow trick (with greater magic weapon tossed on the bow for good measure). Plus, it's rather nice to have an elvencraft longbow on hand in case anyone gets in your face and won't back off.

Flickerdart

2016-11-23, 11:59 AM

There are a few interesting things you can do.

Complete Psionic has some mind blade shape feats that allow you to turn your mind blade into exotic weapons, making it an interesting option for Exotic Weapon Master.

Spiritual Force is a feat that gives CHA to damage with your mind blade for 1 round, for your psionic focus. It's not a bad way of adding damage to thrown weapons if you, for some reason, took 17 levels of soulknife.

Speaking of which, Multiple Throw has very open-ended language. Here it is: "At 17th level and higher, a soulknife can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks he could make." Action cost? Not listed. Must these attacks be possible to make with the mind blade? Not specified. Could you wear 50 braid blades, and thus throw 50 mind blades? Who knows.

danielxcutter

2016-11-24, 02:36 AM

digiman619

2016-11-24, 03:37 AM

It sounds like you desperately want the Dreamscarred Press Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife), and in particular the Deadly Fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/deadly-fist) archetype. In fact, it also can get martial initiation via the War Soul (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/war-soul-soulknife-archetype) archetype.

The only problem you might have is that is technically 3PP Pathfinder, but it's awesome and well-respected 3PP.

danielxcutter

2016-11-24, 03:56 AM

digiman619

2016-11-24, 04:04 AM

Yes, those are sweet, but I'm not using Pathfinder. sry

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/1a/76/6c/1a766c580ed2bbd61394737b268bf58d.jpg

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-24, 07:43 AM

I kind of want to put lots of Soulknife levels in there - as in, as many as possible without being compared to a Truenamer. There's a feat called Practiced Mind Blade (Dragon 341): +4 levels of soulknife for purposes of the mindblade's weapon properties & enhancement bonus, but cannot exceed HD, so Monk 4/Soulknife 16 with Tashalatora and Practiced Mind Blade gets most of the relevant stuff both classes have to offer. Also, there's a feat called Reshape Mind Blade(also from Dragon 341), that allows you to add an extra mind blade form to your list. RAW, unarmed strikes are weapons. So could I choose Reshape Mind Blade(unarmed strike) to make a mind blade that deals Monk unarmed damage? Even if that doesn't work, choosing a Monk weapon, such as kama or quarterstaff, allows me to flurry with a mind blade. The feat doesn't penalize me for making a double weapon by taking a +1 off of each end either.

So, would a Monk 4/Soulknife(Hidden Talent, Bonus Feats ACF) 16 work? It seems better than most Soulknife builds that don't use Kensei, Soulbow, or the Kineticist line. If it works good enough to be used in play, then what else would you suggest?Monk 4 is not a good cutoff point. The natural breakaway points for monk are monk 1, monk 2, or monk 6 -- though those change if you'e using ACFs. You really don't care about ki strike (magic), since you can wear a magical ward cestus or a warforged battlefist (if you have the warforged mighty arms grafts) or even a sizing/morphing scorpion kama turned into brass-knuckled gloves.

The monk's reliance on Wisdom makes soulbow even more important to you, since soulknife doesn't rely on Wisdom much, and soulbow makes you just that much less MAD. Just tossing that out there to you. Combine with Intuitive Attack and Zen Archery to reduce MAD even more.

Might I suggest changing your monk dip into monk with several ACFs, including decisive strike (PHBII, instead of flurry; stack with other damage multipliers, like Spirited Charge, and gain additional attacks through Snap Kick, Improved Trip, Knock-Down, and so on), martial monk (Dragon #310, to vastly expand your feat list and ignore their prereqs; Improved Whirlwind Attack is VERY nice, here), bane of the clockwork (from Dragon #351, which allows you to use Stunning Fist and crits against constructs), and invisible fist (Exemplars of Evil, because who doesn't want nearly at will, immediate action invisibility and blink effects?).

As for feats, go for a dip into soulbow and/or shiba protector for Wis to damage, Intuitive Attack and/or Zen Archery for Wis to hit, Wedded to History (Survivor) to replace all saves with Will saves (and get yourself mettle from somewhere for Will save evasion). With all of that, you're only reliant on Con for hit points and psionic focus, and Dex for initiative. Ancestral Relic gives you more options for having another personally produced magic item -- and don't use your WBL for your Ancestral Relic; instead, take a portable altar with you and start breaking down unholy shrines, enemy temples, and similar.

danielxcutter

2016-11-24, 09:41 PM

-snip-

I said in the OP, non sucky Soulknife builds without Kensei or Soulbow. You have a point about Monk 2 or Monk 6 being better breakoff points, but Monk does get better saves than Soulknife.

That being said, it seems that I'm not the first to think about unarmed strike mind blades, and it works perfectly by RAW. So with Throw Mind Blade, you could make ranged unarmed strikes! Pretty sure it's not going to be powerful by any means, but Monk 2/Soulknife(Hidden Talent, Bonus Feats ACF) 18 with Tashalatora, Practiced Mind Blade, and Reshape Mind Blade(unarmed strike) might actually be a Tier 4 build, much better than the base classes alone.

legomaster00156

2016-11-24, 09:44 PM

Sure, you can throw your fists, but only twice. :smalltongue:

danielxcutter

2016-11-24, 09:56 PM

Sure, you can throw your fists, but only twice. :smalltongue:

Not after Soulknife 5 thanks to Free Draw!

Soranar

2016-11-25, 11:58 AM

Ok how about this

Race: Aerenal Elf

Alternate class features
-trade psychic strike for feats
-trade wild talent for hidden talent

take the decisive strike monk ACF
take the overwhelming attack fighting style (found in the SRD)

Level 1 Monk
Level 2-10 soulknife
Level 10+ Legacy champion

key tricks

Aerenal elves can take aereni focus which grants you +3 with one skill and that skill is always a class skill, take Iaijutsu focus

As a hidden talent power, take dimension hop (10 ft teleport, swift action)

You combat trick is this. Swift action teleport 10 ft, 5 ft step, decisive strike with your blade for x2 ddamage (the collision enchant is best for this)

If you're not in range, throw your blade with decisive strike (You're allowed as long as you take the flowing blade feat). with 30ft range it should be plenty

according to complete psionic, forming your blade as a free action is = to drawing it and free draw counts as quick draw for feats

take the sudden draw skill trick
acrobatic backstab skilltrick
hidden blade skilltrick

each of them flat foot your opponent, triggering Iaijjutsu focus

for acrobatic backstab you swift teleport, tumble into your enemy's square with a 5 ft step then decisive strike

for sudden draw, trigger an AoO , let go of your blade, reform it as a free action and smash

Finally hidden blade is hilarious because you literally draw a blade out of thin air so there's no way your enemy can detect it

decisive strike works with armor and a shield so you don't need to go naked like a normal monk.

key feats

aereni focus

key magic items

mau Je he legacy weapon, legacy champion lets you customize it so it'll boost your Iaijutsu focus skill

I forgot to add

-take the dragonborn of bahamut template with the heart aspect and the feat entangling exhalation to let you entangle your opponents
-the pacifist host feat will grant your a manifester level and entangling ectoplasm (which lasts 5 rounds and offers no save no SR), pick CHA as your casting stat
-you can take hidden talent again to gain expansion as a later power, your mind blade will grow with you since you shape it appropriate to your size
-Decisive strike works well because doubling your damage helps immensely against opponents with DR while multiple weaker attacks do nothing, since you can only throw 1 mind blade per round this is relevant when you intend to stay ranged
-various magic items give a few power points, you don't need many to power your abilities

Amphetryon

2016-11-25, 12:21 PM

If you can be Kalashtar, the Atavist PrC is not horrible for a Soulknife. It is not exactly good, but....

Godskook

2016-11-25, 12:45 PM

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/1a/76/6c/1a766c580ed2bbd61394737b268bf58d.jpg

"Pathfinder or GTFO", no matter how "nicely worded", is not helpful in the slightest on a board that's not pathfinder-exclusive.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-25, 12:58 PM

If you had a bow form for your mind blade and fired mind arrows from it, that would give you a way to stack your mind blade with mind arrows...not that that helps here.

digiman619

2016-11-25, 03:33 PM

"Pathfinder or GTFO", no matter how "nicely worded", is not helpful in the slightest on a board that's not pathfinder-exclusive.

I'm not being a Pathfinder elitist or anything, but the 3.5 Soulknife was infamously bad and the Pathfinder remake is universally respected.

Troacctid

2016-11-25, 03:57 PM

Unarmed strikes are not a type of weapon in the same sense that barefoot is not a type of shoe. You can't shape your mind blade into one.

digiman619

2016-11-25, 04:27 PM

Unarmed strikes are not a type of weapon in the same sense that barefoot is not a type of shoe. You can't shape your mind blade into one.

But couldn't you form them as a cestus or brass knuckles?

Troacctid

2016-11-25, 04:32 PM

Well, those aren't unarmed strikes, yeah? So what are you accomplishing by doing that?

digiman619

2016-11-25, 04:38 PM

But they're weapons that (at least in reality) are about augmenting punches. So making a mindblade into one of those makes sense for a justification for making them work as unarmed strikes.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-25, 05:04 PM

Well, those aren't unarmed strikes, yeah? So what are you accomplishing by doing that?The ward cestus and warforged battlefists are explicitly considered enhance-able (improved) unarmed strikes.

Troacctid

2016-11-25, 05:14 PM

Sure, a weapon that says it counts as an unarmed strike would certainly count as an unarmed strike, as per that ability, and would interact with monk abilities accordingly, yes.

Mehangel

2016-11-25, 05:40 PM

I'm not being a Pathfinder elitist or anything, but the 3.5 Soulknife was infamously bad and the Pathfinder remake is universally respected.

I also would like to point out that converting DSP's Soulknife to D&D 3.5 isn't particularly difficult.

danielxcutter

2016-11-26, 12:29 AM

Unarmed strikes are not a type of weapon in the same sense that barefoot is not a type of shoe. You can't shape your mind blade into one.Weeelll, they do have an entry on the Weapons table on the SRD.

But seriously, I'm not trying to make an Iron Chef entry. Even if the build worked perfectly as I intended, I'm estimating a high Tier 4 at best. The main point was using two of the most crappiest base classes in 3.5, to make something that might be possible to actually use in a game without Tier 1 god-classes. If the "unarmed strike mind blade" trick doesn't work, then it completely fails, but it still seems stronger than straight Monk 20 or Soulknife 20. Plus, Reshape Mind Blade(quarterstaff) is also possible, so you still get something from each class with a Monk/Soulknife Tash build.

Yogibear41

2016-11-26, 02:33 AM

Dragon Magazine #341 has several Mind Blade feats. Practiced Mind Blade is probably the best IMO. Its basically practiced spellcaster for your mind blade, so you can take 4 levels in anything else and not lose any effective mindblade levels.

Also there are several feats in eberron books that require Kalashtar, one increases your effective level by 2 I believe. So you could take 6 less levels and not lose out, or take 4 less levels and be 2 levels above where you would normally be at with both of those feats.

Pretty hilarious that some of the best suggestions are "take other classes" If you plan on try to stick to a full 20 level build of soulknife, I would suggest at least 4 levels of illumine soul, you basically gain stuff without losing anything, you could take the 5th level but then you would lose another BAB, but if you take 12 levels of soulknife, 4 of illumine soul, and 4 of some full bab class + the practiced mind blade feat you end up with +16 bab and 20th level soulblade at level 20.

danielxcutter

2016-11-26, 03:29 AM

Dragon Magazine #341 has several Mind Blade feats. Practiced Mind Blade is probably the best IMO. Its basically practiced spellcaster for your mind blade, so you can take 4 levels in anything else and not lose any effective mindblade levels.

Yeah, I'm trying to make something cool out of Soulknife, and even I know that Soulknife 20 is nothing but epic fail. Practiced Mind Blade is more or less required.

Also there are several feats in eberron books that require Kalashtar, one increases your effective level by 2 I believe. So you could take 6 less levels and not lose out, or take 4 less levels and be 2 levels above where you would normally be at with both of those feats.

Interesting. Could I have more information on them?

Pretty hilarious that some of the best suggestions are "take other classes" If you plan on try to stick to a full 20 level build of soulknife, I would suggest at least 4 levels of illumine soul, you basically gain stuff without losing anything, you could take the 5th level but then you would lose another BAB, but if you take 12 levels of soulknife, 4 of illumine soul, and 4 of some full bab class + the practiced mind blade feat you end up with +16 bab and 20th level soulblade at level 20.

The problem is that Illumine Soul isn't really good against anything that's not undead. Maybe in a Soulbow build, but it doesn't really fit with this.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-26, 07:51 AM

danielxcutter

2016-11-26, 08:53 AM

Optimize the crap out of your unarmed strike (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) and shape your mindblade into a ward cestus or warforged battlefist instead of buying one. Yes, you'd get more out of the Ancestral Relic feat than you do soulknife, and your soulknife levels are basically a waste, but that's true no matter what you do.

I think that a)there's too much for my short attention span to take in by myself in the linked post, and b)while I'm not sure about a battlefist, a ward cestus seems perfect. Thank you.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-26, 09:01 AM

I think that a)there's too much for my short attention span to take in by myself in the linked post, and b)while I'm not sure about a battlefist, a ward cestus seems perfect. Thank you.Central to the build is stacking as many pluses and other effects on your unarmed strike as possible. Adding on a tooth of Leraje to cast greater magic weapon on yourself, it's got a +5 unarmed strike with several dozen weapon abilities for well within the WBL of a pre-epic character, using a magical warforged battlefist, Ancestral Relic (Unarmed Strike), a necklace of natural weapons (unarmed strike), chronocharms attached to the necklace (each of which also enhanced as a necklace of natural weapons in its own right), and so on. Then abusing the fact that the monk's entire body is one natural weapon (in that you can make an unarmed strike with practically any part of your body) to get a lot of mileage out of things like ghost touch, distance and throwing (ie, throwing the entire body instead of firing your fist in order to travel extremely long distances via full attacks), metalline (turning your body into adamantine), and so on. Get lots of immunities and as many ways as you can to apply your abilities to various situations that are WELL beyond what the designers originally intended (such as using ghost touch to become selectively [in]corporeal whenever it would benefit you, metalline to become living adamantine, and explosive to Kool-Aid Man your way through your enemies in a shower of gore), and you can boost your power and versatility to the point where you can actually fit right in with a reasonably optimized group of T1s and T2s.

danielxcutter

2016-11-26, 09:11 AM

Central to the build is stacking as many pluses and other effects on your unarmed strike as possible. Adding on a tooth of Leraje to cast greater magic weapon on yourself, it's got a +5 unarmed strike with several dozen weapon abilities for well within the WBL of a pre-epic character, using a magical warforged battlefist, Ancestral Relic (Unarmed Strike), a necklace of natural weapons (unarmed strike), chronocharms attached to the necklace (each of which also enhanced as a necklace of natural weapons in its own right), and so on. Then abusing the fact that the monk's entire body is one natural weapon (in that you can make an unarmed strike with practically any part of your body) to get a lot of mileage out of things like ghost touch, distance and throwing (ie, throwing the entire body instead of firing your fist in order to travel extremely long distances via full attacks), metalline (turning your body into adamantine), and so on. Get lots of immunities and as many ways as you can to apply your abilities to various situations that are WELL beyond what the designers originally intended (such as using ghost touch to become selectively [in]corporeal whenever it would benefit you, metalline to become living adamantine, and explosive to Kool-Aid Man your way through your enemies in a shower of gore), and you can boost your power and versatility to the point where you can actually fit right in with a reasonably optimized group of T1s and T2s.

I think you've overdone it with the cheddar there. Oh did I say cheddar - I ment Gouda. Plus, I think Reshape Mind Blade(ward cestus) is all I really need.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-26, 09:16 AM

I think you've overdone it with the cheddar there. Oh did I say cheddar - I ment Gouda. Plus, I think Reshape Mind Blade(ward cestus) is all I really need.Not me, but it is really optimized, yes. Problem is, the non-ACF monk is on the extreme low end of T5, verging on a not-so-powerful T6 (saved only by the fact that it's more versatile than most T6s, as it actually has class abilities).

Monks (and soulknives) need all the help they can get.

Feel free to look at the rest of the thread. There are quite a few decent monk builds on there.

danielxcutter

2016-11-26, 09:22 AM

Yogibear41

2016-11-26, 12:02 PM

Soulblade Warrior from Races of Eberron is the feat I was talking about for Kalashtar. There are a few others, but its probably the best.

Troacctid

2016-11-26, 12:23 PM

CThen abusing the fact that the monk's entire body is one natural weapon (in that you can make an unarmed strike with practically any part of your body)

I've still never seen a citation for this, and I'm pretty sure it's not RAW.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-26, 12:43 PM

I've still never seen a citation for this, and I'm pretty sure it's not RAW.Any and every body part of a monk can be used as part of an unarmed strike. It says there in the unarmed strike description. Anything you can reasonably make an unarmed strike with works. Everything from fingertip-spear punches to fists to elbows to clotheslines to shoulder-checks to headbutts to body-checks to hip-checks to knees to shins to feet. And that's not including striking surfaces for fantasy creatures, such as neck-whips for long-necked creatures, wing-slams for winged creatures, tail-whips for those with tails, and so on. Every part that you can use for an unarmed strike must be affected by, say, a necklace of natural weapons, else it doesn't work as advertised by RAW. If you have a metalline necklace of natural weapons, it must turn every part of you into whatever metal you choose (just like it does with other weapons, such as quarterstaffs and clubs).

Godskook

2016-11-26, 12:51 PM

Not me, but it is really optimized, yes. Problem is, the non-ACF monk is on the extreme low end of T5, verging on a not-so-powerful T6 (saved only by the fact that it's more versatile than most T6s, as it actually has class abilities).

Monks (and soulknives) need all the help they can get.

Feel free to look at the rest of the thread. There are quite a few decent monk builds on there.

Monk is square tier 5. Monk's special access(early access and enough uses to use it every fight by level 4, twice a fight by level 8) to Stunning Fist alone is nearly enough to keep pace with an Imperious Command CW Samurai. Combined with better skill points and a better skill list, unarmed strike, the vanilla pre-req free feats, and scaling class features all work to make it quintessential tier 5. I mean, just look at the competition and ask "can a core+1 Monk shine alongside a Paladin, Fighter, Knight, and Expert", and imho, the answer is yes.

Troacctid

2016-11-26, 12:56 PM

Any and every body part of a monk can be used as part of an unarmed strike. It says there in the unarmed strike description. Anything you can reasonably make an unarmed strike with works.
Where in the description? Can you quote it? Because I'm looking at it now and I don't see anything like that.

Monk is square tier 5. Monk's special access(early access and enough uses to use it every fight by level 4, twice a fight by level 8) to Stunning Fist alone is nearly enough to keep pace with an Imperious Command CW Samurai. Combined with better skill points and a better skill list, unarmed strike, the vanilla pre-req free feats, and scaling class features all work to make it quintessential tier 5. I mean, just look at the competition and ask "can a core+1 Monk shine alongside a Paladin, Fighter, Knight, and Expert", and imho, the answer is yes.
Mostly agreed, and I think the class is definitely better than soulknife.

danielxcutter

2016-11-26, 11:33 PM

Where in the description? Can you quote it? Because I'm looking at it now and I don't see anything like that.

From the Monk entry on the SRD:

A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet.

So I guess you could apply those effects on said body parts by RAW, but I'm not sure if I'm reading it correctly.

Btw, I've always thought that selecting "unarmed strike" as the target of a Necklace of Natural Weapons or Improved Natural Weapon was a bit strange. Shouldn't you have to select "fist" or "elbow" instead? If you're not a Monk, on the other hand, it probably doesn't matter since I'm pretty sure that non-Monks have to use their fists for unarmed strikes.

Mostly agreed, and I think the class is definitely better than soulknife.

Well, Monks do have much better class features. Unarmed strike damage advancement is unique, evasion is always good to have, and they have great saves all around. Soulknife on the other hand, can't even make good use of their Mind Blade, because +5 worth of it is tied up in enhancement bonuses when you can just use GMW and the special abilities they can add to it aren't that good(Collision and Psychokinetic are okay, but the rest just suck), Blade Wind is just Whirlwind Attack which can't even be used to qualify for Improved Whirlwind Attack, and I don't even want to talk about Psychic Strike. Remember, the Monk/Soulknife build I made earlier was more of making something less sucky than the base Soulknife, not the base Monk.

Troacctid

2016-11-26, 11:40 PM

Yeah, that was the text I was looking at too. But that can't be Maxi's source, because it only gives you fists, elbows, knees, and feet—not any body part.

danielxcutter

2016-11-26, 11:49 PM

Yeah, that was the text I was looking at too. But that can't be Maxi's source, because it only gives you fists, elbows, knees, and feet—not any body part.

I think I've read something like that too, but I'm still pretty sure that it wouldn't work anyway by RAW. Plus, Reshape Mind Blade(ward cestus) is good enough for my purposes.

MeeposFire

2016-11-28, 03:08 AM

danielxcutter

2016-11-28, 03:20 AM

I know soulbow is not yoru go to but one random thing about it not everybody notices is that the enhancement bonus you get from soulknife improves your BAB. A full fledged soulbow/soulknife actually can get 4 attacks per round form BAB despite having only medium BAB in each class. The strangeness.

I know that it is possible to interpret the wording like that. I also know that it reaaaally isn't RAI. So thanks, but I think I'll go with the less silly interpretion. Plus the idea was not using Soulbow, since almost everyone knows about that.

ben-zayb

2016-11-28, 04:23 AM

Sure. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20138735&postcount=119)is pretty much abusing Soulknife and Soulbow enhancements to spam attacks infinitely.

danielxcutter

2016-11-28, 05:55 AM

Sure. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20138735&postcount=119)is pretty much abusing Soulknife and Soulbow enhancements to spam attacks infinitely.

I'm sorry but A) one of the main tricks is rather shady in terms of rules, B) I don't really like setting-specific material unless I can refluff it easily(although this is minor), C) I don't really like the flavor, and D) I said "besides Soulbow or Kensei" and that build uses both. They are great PrCs for a Soulknife, but they've been used to death and I wanted something more original.

I appreciate the effort, however.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-28, 06:25 AM

There's just not really much you can do with the 3.5 soulknife. You have kensai and soulbow, and maybe illumine soul (not that it's very useful or powerful), and not much else.

danielxcutter

2016-11-28, 06:56 AM

There's just not really much you can do with the 3.5 soulknife. You have kensai and soulbow, and maybe illumine soul (not that it's very useful or powerful), and not much else.

Not much else means there is something. In this case, using the Hidden Talent and Bonus Feats Soulknife ACFs, Monastic Training, Tashalatora, Reshape Mind Blade(ward cestus), Practiced Mind Blade, and a two level dip into Monk(or possibly Martial Monk). Weaker than a Soulbow or Kensei build? Likely. Stronger than the base classes? Also likely. I made it with some of the advice from earlier answerers, but I haven't got much feedback on it yet.

Ualaa

2016-11-28, 08:19 AM

If you can use the Dreamscarred Press stuff...

The chasis will be Soulknife.
The archetype will be War Soul.
If desired, Soulbolt can stack with War Soul, but melee is likely a superior War Soul.
War Soul = limited Path of War stances/maneuvers, and those dramatically increase the power of martial characters.
If you cannot go War Soul for whatever reason, Gifted Blade is decent (you can Force Screen, from level 3 onwards for +4 Shield bonus to AC... like Shield, with enough Power Points for every fight, every day).

Fighter's Blade will make an appearance, as your level 3 feat.
Meaning we have four non-Soulknife levels in the build, without hurting the progression of your Mind Blade.

I would go...

Unchained Monk 1 (Master of Many Styles >> Crane Style)
Soulknife 3
Aegis 3
Soulknife to 20.

Take Dodge and Psionic Dodge in the build.
You need Dodge for the rest of the Crane Style chain... Crane Wing and Crane Riposte.
You'll want three ranks in Acrobatics, asap.
Base defensive fighting is -4 attack for +2 dodge to armor.
Acrobatics 3+ gets an extra +1 dodge to armor, while defensive fighting.
Crane Style reduces the attack penalty by 2 (so -2 now) and adds +1 dodge to AC while defensive fighting.
Crane Riposte (you qualify at level 9) reduces the penalty by 1 more (so -1 total) and adds +1 dodge extra.

For blade skills as the Soulknife, you want Focused Offense (S.Knife 2, or later) and Focused Defense (S.Knife 4, or later).
I personally would not allow Wisdom to double-stack to AC, both as dodge bonuses.
But if your DM does, then go unarmored with Monk WIS to AC, and use Focused Defense with that.
If your DM rules a stat is only going to go to whatever once, then wear armor.

Focused Offense allows WIS to attack + damage, for Melee range weapons only.
Focused Defense allows WIS to AC (as a dodge bonus), while using Combat Expertise or Defensive Fighting and with Psionic Focus.
You would likely focus yourself, and never expend focus as it is too critical to the build.

You have...
WIS = attack rolls, damage rolls, armor (without armor worn), armor (while defensive fighting)... those two probably don't stack.

Defensive Fighting...
-4 attack, +2 armor ... BASE
-2 attack, +3 armor ... Monk - Master of Many Styles (level 01) with Crane Style
-2 attack, +4 armor ... Acrobatics 3 ranks
-2 attack, +4 armor ... Crane Wing
-1 attack, +5 armor ... Crane Riposte (level 09)
WIS bonus increases armor bonus, while defensive fighting... and WIS is almost all you need... Some Con and some Dex in there.
Crane Wing makes you (melee, but not ranged) armor count as four higher (free action, on your turn) until you're hit, or would have been hit if you were not using Wing.
So if your AC is 20 without Wing, it is 24 with... and anything that would have hit AC 20, 21, 22, 23 or 24+ will cancel Wing.
Crane Riposte is the final piece of the puzzle... anything that misses you, while you're fighting defensively provokes an attack of opportunity.
You'll want a decent DEX and Combat Reflexes in there.

After Aegis 3, you want Student of the Astral Suit (feat).
That will make your Aegis level count as +4 levels higher, for the purpose of suit augments and augment points.
To a maximum of your actual level...
Basically the same thing as Fighter's Blade (which is +4 levels higher for Blade Skills and Mindblade power, to a maximum of your character level).
With the Aegis, you get the equivalent of Full Plate, which allows (configurable) some of: Evasion, Flight, Burrow, Darkvision, more AC, Reach, Weapon counts as one step larger for damage...
Aegis to 5+ (with the Trailblazer archetype) gets you Trapfinding, if you want to cover that role...

You'll end up with decent armor (physical/flat-footed AC).
And Dodge, Psionic Dodge, Defensive Fighting, Defensive Focus (dodge/touch AC).
One stat is a lot of your AC, your Will save, your attack/damage (melee anyway).
Your weapon scales with your level, so you're richer than most toons your level...
Additional Configuration, as a third blade skill, will allow two configurations for the most two common sets of mobs you face.
Aegis covers armor as well.
You cannot have your weapon or armor removed, even if you're captured and knocked out.

ben-zayb

2016-11-28, 08:46 AM

legomaster00156

2016-11-28, 09:57 AM

Wow, this "use pathfinder, no really" series of posts reminds me of all the "use ToB, no really" and "use a caster, no really" responses. Hopefully it's not representative of the PF or 3.PF community, if it can be homogenized at all.
Well, there are many posts here recommending what few builds can be made of the 3.5 Soulknife. Recommending (read: not demanding) the DSP Soulknife, which is frankly just a way better class, is a very fair response to the desire to build a good Soulknife.

Kaje

2016-11-28, 11:13 AM

Yeah, the "use Pathfinder" people here can be really obnoxious.

danielxcutter

2016-11-28, 06:16 PM

Sometimes I wonder if people read the earlier posts at all... I mean, I've stated "No Pathfinder please" multiple times but at least half a dozen have done so.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-28, 06:20 PM

danielxcutter

2016-11-28, 11:56 PM

Remember how the druid in OotS said something to the effect of, "I have class features more powerful than your entire class!"?

Soulknives get that from T3 classes. There's only so much you can do with "gets a weapon" as 90% of what you get.

Yeah, I know, but I don't really need more "Soulknife is heresy" opinions. I've already seen more than half a dozen on this thread alone when one would have been too many.

digiman619

2016-11-29, 01:59 AM

Sometimes I wonder if people read the earlier posts at all... I mean, I've stated "No Pathfinder please" multiple times but at least half a dozen have done so.

The reason that a lot of us, including myself, are saying "Just use Pathfinder!" is that it accomplishes everything you want to do, yet you continue to refuse to do it. It gets even worse in that you are also refusing the two semi-decent builds that the community has been able to squeeze out of the class and then asking "What else can I do with this?" when it is painfully obvious the answer is nothing. It's like you need a pen, refuse to use both the mechanical pencil and the fine-tipped Sharpie, so instead elect to grab a knife and write in your own blood instead.
Forgive the hyperbole, but it takes maybe five minutes to back-port it to 3.5, but you just don't. If you dislike Pathfinder so much and must have a non-Pathfinder version, here (http://docdro.id/K8aVD9d) is the 3.5 version that Dreamscarred Press made before Pathfinder was a thing.

danielxcutter

2016-11-29, 02:25 AM

The reason that a lot of us, including myself, are saying "Just use Pathfinder!" is that it accomplishes everything you want to do, yet you continue to refuse to do it. It gets even worse in that you are also refusing the two semi-decent builds that the community has been able to squeeze out of the class and then asking "What else can I do with this?" when it is painfully obvious the answer is nothing. It's like you need a pen, refuse to use both the mechanical pencil and the fine-tipped Sharpie, so instead elect to grab a knife and write in your own blood instead.
Forgive the hyperbole, but it takes maybe five minutes to back-port it to 3.5, but you just don't. If you dislike Pathfinder so much and must have a non-Pathfinder version, here (http://docdro.id/K8aVD9d) is the 3.5 version that Dreamscarred Press made before Pathfinder was a thing.

Look, I wasn't asking for some awesome build that made the Soulknife worthwhile. This wasn't even for something that could be used in play. Just a light-hearted post so I could see what other people came up with, that's all. And some people have given useful advice, but others keep saying "Death or Pathfinder!". And to think that I actually expected this to be fun. Thanks a lot, guys. :smallfrown:

TiaC

2016-11-29, 05:01 AM

When you post a thread like this, people assume you are building a character. Playing a Soulknife is unlikely to be very enjoyable, especially if you aren't using the few options that somewhat salvage the class. So, people encouraged you to either try those options or try the most widely accepted fix for the class because they wanted you to have a good time playing one. But that wasn't what you were after. You wanted some trick that makes the soulknife better, but which people don't already know about. However, you didn't make that clear at all, so people kept trying to help you and you kept getting angry at them. So, trust me, it wasn't fun for anyone.

There are plenty of non-sucky Soulknife builds, but most of them aren't really Soulknife builds. They are Warrior builds that can ignore the soulknife class features entirely. This is probably not what you are looking for. Now, a few minutes of googling found me some things that might be what you are after. Here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) is the article with ACFs for soulknives, both of which improve it greatly. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?166010-(3-5-Psionics-Eberron)-Kick-Butt-Soulknife-builds) is an earlier thread with the same question. Here (http://web.archive.org/web/20100408110435/http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872658/The_Soulknife_Handbook) is the old Soulknife handbook.

danielxcutter

2016-11-29, 05:06 AM

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-29, 11:54 AM

In the Magic Item Compendium, there's the adamantine mind blade gauntlet, and there's also a mind blade item in Weapons of Legacy, the Mau-Jehe.

You could always buy or craft the mind blade gauntlet or Mau-Jehe to have enhancements that allow you to combine it with monk stuff, such as ki focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#kiFocus), the scorpion kama's ability to deal damage equal to your unarmed strike, and aptitude, along with any feat that directly or indirectly boosts your unarmed strikes (like, say, Snap Kick), which you can now use on your mind blade due to aptitude. Use Tashalatora to advance monk options with soulknife, to tie it together better.

Flickerdart

2016-11-29, 12:03 PM

In the Magic Item Compendium, there's the adamantine mind blade gauntlet, and there's also a mind blade item in Weapons of Legacy, the Mau-Jehe.
The adamantine gauntlet is terrible, since it takes up a +1 enchantment's slot.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-29, 12:10 PM

The adamantine gauntlet is terrible, since it takes up a +1 enchantment's enhancement slot.However, it does allow you to put additional bonuses on there that a mind blade couldn't normally have -- and since it's enhanced separately from a mind blade (aside from the +1, anyway), I imagine it works like a launcher with ammo: the enhancement bonuses don't stack, but the weapon abilties do. This opens up a lot more options and makes your mind blade considerably more powerful. Ancestral Relic adamantine gauntlet, anyone?

nijineko

2016-11-29, 03:44 PM

Mentioned earlier, but the Athasian Soulknife is very much non-sucky. It also has the advantage of being fully official material as per WotC, if anyone in your group cares about that sort of thing.

It takes the soulknife, keeps pretty much all the abilities, grants full BAB, and compresses it down into a 10 level prestige class. This enables you to benefit even more so from the practiced mind blade feat. It combines very well with Illumine Soul (anti-undead 5 level prestige), and still leaves you some levels to play with. The prestige is typically entered via Psychic Warrior, but other classes are also possible, so long as you meet the prestige requirements in a timely fashion.

It is in the Prestige Compendium Volume 1 on Athas.org (http://athas.org/products/prc1).

Personally, I recommend avoiding pathfinder like the plague. It really isn't worth it compared to 3.x.

Flickerdart

2016-11-29, 03:59 PM

It takes the soulknife, keeps pretty much all the abilities, grants full BAB, and compresses it down into a 10 level prestige class.

The original Soulknife from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook was a 10-level prestige class as well. And it was actually pretty good! A 10th level soulknife ended up with 3rd level psionic powers, a mindblade with +5 enhancement, +5d6 sneak attack, the ability to channel powers through his mindblade with no save to resist gained at level 2, deal 2d4 Constitution damage through his mind blade, and choose to make half of that damage permanent.

Any manifester might be tempted to dip 2 soulknife levels for save-free powers, and rogues could take it all the way without hurting their SA progression. With only 6 levels in the class you got Free Draw without the 1/round limit, allowing you to become a very dangerous thrower.

Oh, and that ability to channel powers? It costs a move action to embed the power, no matter what the base manifesting time is. There is also no restriction on what kind of power can go in. You can, for instance, make someone the unfortunate recipient of a null psionics field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/nullPsionicsField.htm) because "even if the power normally affects an area or is a ray, it affects only the target." Punch someone in the face and turn them into an immobile object or a dragon, your choice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm).

Soulknife was the only good thing about the original Psionics Handbook, and the XPH ruined it.

nijineko

2016-11-29, 04:06 PM

I miss the imbue powers ability of the 3.0 soulknife as well. It was really nice.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-29, 04:18 PM

The original Soulknife from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook was a 10-level prestige class as well. And it was actually pretty good! A 10th level soulknife ended up with 3rd level psionic powers, a mindblade with +5 enhancement, +5d6 sneak attack, the ability to channel powers through his mindblade with no save to resist gained at level 2, deal 2d4 Constitution damage through his mind blade, and choose to make half of that damage permanent.

Any manifester might be tempted to dip 2 soulknife levels for save-free powers, and rogues could take it all the way without hurting their SA progression. With only 6 levels in the class you got Free Draw without the 1/round limit, allowing you to become a very dangerous thrower.

Oh, and that ability to channel powers? It costs a move action to embed the power, no matter what the base manifesting time is. There is also no restriction on what kind of power can go in. You can, for instance, make someone the unfortunate recipient of a null psionics field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/nullPsionicsField.htm) because "even if the power normally affects an area or is a ray, it affects only the target." Punch someone in the face and turn them into an immobile object or a dragon, your choice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm).

Soulknife was the only good thing about the original Psionics Handbook, and the XPH ruined it.The soulknife PrC only allowed the imbedding of 3rd level powers and below, which means no metamorphosis, no antimagic field, and no disintegrate.

You can still get that in 3.5, but you need to jump through a few hoops, first.

Flickerdart

2016-11-29, 04:54 PM

The soulknife PrC only allowed the imbedding of 3rd level powers and below
Really? There is no such mention in the class description. The soulknife does not get powers above 3rd level, but there's no mention of having to use its own powers.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-29, 05:02 PM

Really? There is no such mention in the class description. The soulknife does not get powers above 3rd level, but there's no mention of having to use its own powers.This is what I've got:

Imbed Power: At 2nd level, the soulknife can imbed one psionic power (but no psionic attack modes) of 3rd level or lower that he knows in his mind-blade. This spell-like ability requires a move-equivalent action, and the soulknife must pay the cost of the power to imbed it. The imbedded power automatically affects the next target that the soulknife successfully attacks with the mind-blade, with no saving throw allowed. Even if the power normally affects an area or is a ray, it affects only the target. The power is discharged and “flushes” the mind-blade, which can then hold another power. A mind-blade can never have more than one power imbedded at a time.

Flickerdart

2016-11-29, 05:31 PM

This is what I've got:
Well, I guess I'm just blind. Still, that takes the ability down from insane to merely worthwhile.

Soranar

2016-11-29, 10:01 PM

How about optimizing the hidden talent options?

Race: Kalashtar (for the PP)
Template: none

ACF

hidden talent for wild talent
bonus feats instead of psychic strike

Level 1 hidden talent (astral construct) , ancestral relic (dorje with astral construct)
Level 3 host feat: pacifist , Boost construct
Level 6 hidden talent : charm psionic
Level 7 practiced manifester
Level 9 craft dorje
Level 11 dorje mastery
Level 12

ok so here's the trick of this build

soulknife lets you take hidden talent multiple times
host (pacifist) gives you a manifester level
craft dorje + dorje mastery bypasses your power point restriction
ancestral relic gives you a dorje that can constantly be recharged, whose manifester level can be roughly equal to your character level (combine this with dorje mastery and your astral construct are stronger than most wilders)_
charm psionic can let you deal with anything not immune to mind affecting effects

all in all you have all the power of a summoner (through astral construct)
and you get all the charm spells (through charm psionic)
while entangling ectoplasm gives you a debuff that works against pretty much anything

out of combat you can be the party face
trigger traps with astral constructs

in combat

you can summon meat shields
charm anything not immune to charm
entangle anything size appropriate

That sounds like a tier 3 class to me, astral construct is that versatile

danielxcutter

2016-11-29, 11:02 PM

The problem is the lack of Soulknife flavor, but considering how sucky Soulknife is in the first place(yeah I'm the original poster and even I know it...)....

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-30, 11:00 AM

The problem is the lack of Soulknife flavor, but considering how sucky Soulknife is in the first place(yeah I'm the original poster and even I know it...)....Use the 3.0 soulknife?

Or you could take the Mau-Jehe (or a better, homemade facsimile thereof) via legacy champion?

There's also DSP's versatile blade (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/versatile-blade).

Flickerdart

2016-11-30, 11:15 AM

The problem is the lack of Soulknife flavor, but considering how sucky Soulknife is in the first place(yeah I'm the original poster and even I know it...)....
Conceptually, it's not a bad idea, I think. The soulknife's main thing is creating physical projections from their minds. "Sword-shaped energy" is a basic use, but why not use "big scary construct guy" as a continuation?

I see parallels in the (equally underwhelming) shadowsmith from Tome of Magic, who is capable of making items, weapons, and armour out of shadows. A soulknife with this expanded flavour (a soulsmith I guess) could start by manifesting swords, and move on to armours, magic items, and eventually autonomous constructs.

Not a bad idea for a homebrew class. Who's up for it?

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-30, 11:35 AM

Conceptually, it's not a bad idea, I think. The soulknife's main thing is creating physical projections from their minds. "Sword-shaped energy" is a basic use, but why not use "big scary construct guy" as a continuation?

I see parallels in the (equally underwhelming) shadowsmith from Tome of Magic, who is capable of making items, weapons, and armour out of shadows. A soulknife with this expanded flavour (a soulsmith I guess) could start by manifesting swords, and move on to armours, magic items, and eventually autonomous constructs.

Not a bad idea for a homebrew class. Who's up for it?The versatile blade PrC I linked above does stuff like that, albeit not constructs and not from shadowstuff.

[edit] Y'know, nabbing the Mau-Jehe, along with early entry into the soulknife PrC, followed by versatile blade would make for a really nice character, possibly mid T3. I'd have to take a much closer look at everything it could do, but it does look rather nice, on first glance.

Flickerdart

2016-11-30, 11:50 AM

The versatile blade PrC I linked above does stuff like that, albeit not constructs and not from shadowstuff.
"Versatile blade" is also a terrible name.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-30, 11:55 AM

"Versatile blade" is also a terrible name.Would you prefer something more original and not-at-all stereotypical, like soulknife master? :smalltongue:

Just call it, I dunno, soulblade transmogrifist or summat.

Flickerdart

2016-11-30, 11:57 AM

Would you prefer something more original and not-at-all stereotypical, like soulknife master?
It's a psionic PrC, it should have the word "mind" in there somewhere. Or "crystal."

Crystalmind mindmaster. Perfect.

Karl Aegis

2016-11-30, 12:33 PM

Tippy did make a non-sucky soulknife build a few years ago. It used Factotum and Soulknife to kill at least most of the Monster Manual in a single round using the silliness that is Soulknife RAW.

LordOfCain

2016-11-30, 12:35 PM

Tippy did make a non-sucky soulknife build a few years ago. It used Factotum and Soulknife to kill at least most of the Monster Manual in a single round using the silliness that is Soulknife RAW.
Which is located: HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240212-Funky-build)

danielxcutter

2016-11-30, 05:43 PM

Which is located: HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240212-Funky-build)

That is soooooooo rules-lawyering, but I presume that's normal for Emperor Tippy. :smallbiggrin:

ZamielVanWeber

2016-11-30, 05:47 PM

Yeah, I know, but I don't really need more "Soulknife is heresy" opinions. I've already seen more than half a dozen on this thread alone when one would have been too many.

If it makes you feel better I had a friend who had a soul knife build in one of my campaigns that focused on throwing. It was highly effective at low levels actually, but did die off around 5 or 6 (I ended up throwing him a lifeline by letting him use ToB maneuvers on his thrown mind blades).

danielxcutter

2016-11-30, 05:50 PM

If it makes you feel better I had a friend who had a soul knife build in one of my campaigns that focused on throwing. It was highly effective at low levels actually, but did die off around 5 or 6 (I ended up throwing him a lifeline by letting him use ToB maneuvers on his thrown mind blades).

You know, Bloodstorm Blade does allow that, albeit in a limited form... maybe I could partially recreate that in a legal form?

ZamielVanWeber

2016-11-30, 05:53 PM

You know, Bloodstorm Blade does allow that, albeit in a limited form... maybe I could partially recreate that in a legal form?

I will see if we can remember hit, but I remember he got his to hit so high he literally never failed an attack roll against a level appropriate encounter. Also having a decent ranged weapon meant that difficult encounters we taken care of. I had to give props to the soul knife: it was the optimal class for what he wanted and worked out well early on.

Lyndworm

2016-11-30, 06:38 PM

You know, Bloodstorm Blade does allow that, albeit in a limited form... maybe I could partially recreate that in a legal form?
Something like a Soulknife 5/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 4? You might have trouble with the Balance prerequisites, but there are ways around that. It would let you form your mindblade as a Free action and use a Swift action to treat thrown weapon attacks as melee attacks (this lets you initiate maneuvers, use Strength to attack, Power Attack, etc). This normally lets you full attack at range as well, as your weapon is meant to bounce back to your hand immediately after striking an opponent with a sort of modified Returning quality. The catch here is that it doesn't work for Soulknives, because "whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mind blade then dissipates" and the Soulknife "can make only one attempt to materialize the mind blade per round."

The situation is worsened because Bloodstorm Blade is the only class in Tome of Battle that doesn't progress maneuvers, so your full attack alternatives are kind of lacking. Your options from here are to go into a class that lets you customize your mind blade (Kensai or more Soulknife, really) or one that adds maneuvers (probably more Warblade).

By coincidence I was looking into Bloodstorm Blade builds yesterday, so this was just off the top of my head (plus a quick SRD search for proper Soulknife wording).

Flickerdart

2016-11-30, 08:45 PM

That is soooooooo rules-lawyering, but I presume that's normal for Emperor Tippy. :smallbiggrin:

It's not even lawyering, just straight-up assuming that his reading is the only possible one without even offering supporting rules citations.

Godskook

2016-11-30, 10:18 PM

I'm not being a Pathfinder elitist or anything

yet you continue to refuse to do it.

We are what we continually do. If you want me to believe you're not a Pathfinder elitist, please, don't represent an OP as "refusing" to do it the "pathfinder way". That's pretty elitist.

The reason that a lot of us, including myself, are saying "Just use Pathfinder!" is that it accomplishes everything you want to do,

How does anything pathfinder fulfill the criteria "be 3.5, not pathfinder"? While OP has not clarified, there's perfectly reasonable reasons to have this restriction, too. Such as for the thought experiment(where homebrew is the ugliest sin, while pathfinder would be lesser challenge) or use in a game with a DM who is restrictive to 3.5 WotC. And you seem to ignore these reasonable and predictable reasons, and just assume the OP is simply being stubborn because "pathfinder is better".

ben-zayb

2016-11-30, 10:35 PM

While Soulknife / Bloodstorm Blade / Initiator X is certainly viable, about the only advantage you get for those wasted levels in Soulknife is minute enhancement bonuses to damage.

The best advantage of a Soulknife is having weapons for free, so clearly the way to make it properly optimized is to use Vow of Poverty!*gasp*

More seriously, though, you can even pull off a Iaijutsu Focus build with Iaijutsu Master on it!!1! That works well with 1/round burst weapon damage, and will even synergize with Tippy's cheese, should you choose to add it.

Mehangel

2016-12-01, 12:16 AM

How does anything pathfinder fulfill the criteria "be 3.5, not pathfinder"?

The pedant in me wants to point out that the Soulknife recommended isn't strictly pathfinder, it originates from a third party publisher whose content supports both 3.5 and Pathfinder game systems.

Kaje

2016-12-01, 01:51 AM

3rd party to a 3rd party is not better.

nijineko

2016-12-05, 12:04 PM

The catch here is that it doesn't work for Soulknives, because "whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mind blade then dissipates" and the Soulknife "can make only one attempt to materialize the mind blade per round."

Get the multi-throw ability from the soulknife prestige and that problem is solved.

@digiman619 - it amuses me to no end that pathfinder has no support for psionics at all. Yet another reason why I won't play pathfinder. it simply isn't worth it compared to 3.x and d20. they fell flat on their face for implementation and simply became just another version of what they originally fought against. the more products they produce the worse it gets.

Lyndworm

2016-12-05, 02:32 PM

Get the multi-throw ability from the soulknife prestige and that problem is solved.
Would that be the 3.0 Soulknife prestige class? It gets that ability at 6th level, but it would technically work. Assuming that you need 9pp to qualify (because of weird 3.0 rules), something like a Psion 3/Warblade 2/Soulknife 6/Bloodstorm Blade 4 is viable, but doesn't really come online until 15th level.

If you meant Soulbow, the mindarrow ability states that it is treated as a projectile so it can't be used with Bloodstorm Blade.

digiman619

2016-12-05, 08:28 PM

@digiman619 - it amuses me to no end that pathfinder has no support for psionics at all. Yet another reason why I won't play pathfinder. it simply isn't worth it compared to 3.x and d20. they fell flat on their face for implementation and simply became just another version of what they originally fought against. the more products they produce the worse it gets.

Paizo's idea on psionics eventually became psychic magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/psychic-magic). Apparently, they planned on implementing their "Vancian psionics" early during Pathfinder's run, but the fanbase rejected the idea, hard. When Dreamscarred Press made their Pathfinder psionics, Paizo basically said "If you want psionics, use these guys' stuff". Only after DSP had established a deep affection from the fanbase did they make their version.

nijineko

2016-12-13, 03:05 PM

Would that be the 3.0 Soulknife prestige class? It gets that ability at 6th level, but it would technically work. Assuming that you need 9pp to qualify (because of weird 3.0 rules), something like a Psion 3/Warblade 2/Soulknife 6/Bloodstorm Blade 4 is viable, but doesn't really come online until 15th level.

If you meant Soulbow, the mindarrow ability states that it is treated as a projectile so it can't be used with Bloodstorm Blade.

No,that would be the 3.5 version of the soulknife - both the base class (@17th level) and the prestige from Athas (also 3.5, and @8th level) have the Multiple Throw ability.

nijineko

2016-12-13, 03:10 PM

Paizo's idea on psionics eventually became psychic magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/psychic-magic). Apparently, they planned on implementing their "Vancian psionics" early during Pathfinder's run, but the fanbase rejected the idea, hard. When Dreamscarred Press made their Pathfinder psionics, Paizo basically said "If you want psionics, use these guys' stuff". Only after DSP had established a deep affection from the fanbase did they make their version.

You have a point.

However, the entire vancian system is part of the reason i dislike D&D magic and play psionics in the first place. I don't really feel that "vancian psychic-style magic" qualifies for various reasons. Also, Paizo shunting it off onto Dreamscarred doesn't count as in-system support without an official statement of legitimacy.

Please note that I do not intend by any of this, any implication that dreamscarred doesn't do good work. only that they are sadly not official.

digiman619

2016-12-13, 04:10 PM

You have a point.

However, the entire vancian system is part of the reason i dislike D&D magic and play psionics in the first place. I don't really feel that "vancian psychic-style magic" qualifies for various reasons. Also, Paizo shunting it off onto Dreamscarred doesn't count as in-system support without an official statement of legitimacy.

Please note that I do not intend by any of this, any implication that dreamscarred doesn't do good work. only that they are sadly not official.

Personally, I'm with you on disliking Vancian magic (look here (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/) for Spheres of Power, probably the best non-Vancian magic system ever, plus Pathfinder versions of the Binder and Truenamer), but Paizo learned from WotC's mistake by introducing as few subsystems as possible. Every new subsystem it introduces, the more space has to be set aside for it in later works. Having a large third-party scene lets its fans that want those subsystems have them without having to support it themselves.