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Maxilian
2016-11-23, 10:00 AM
Hello everyone, i have the idea of a INT 6 character (an Orc) Barbarian, but i was wondering how do you play a low INT character? He is a Servant of Bhaal and i wanted to set his ideal around this (a Lawful Character):


Quote From the Forgoteen Realm wiki.
"The nature of what the Lord of Murder has power over is contested - in his best incarnation he may take strength in violently punishing murderers and warmongers, others that he judged whether a murder was righteous or not."

But what would a low INT character identify as "righteous"?

Note: I have been thinking of giving him the idea of "Righteous" as being something like "needed to survive or defending what is yours", for example, someone kills another person that stole from them (That may be seen as a Righteous Murder for him), or someone that killed out of need (hunger, self-defense or the defense of others) or murder out of retribution (Rightfull Vengeance?) but in general, i would like some ideas (I normally evade playing low Int characters, but i think they do bring some interesting RP possibilities)

hymer
2016-11-23, 11:09 AM
The first thought that leaps to my mind is the guy who keeps asking "Is it okay to kill this one, boss?" He knows he's likely to get it wrong, so he defers to someone he believes knows better. But someone with low int could possibly get by on having a more average wisdom score. Without the int he bungles the specific rules and doesn't really bother with them a whole lot. He has maybe a handful clear and fairly simple ones that he considers set in stone, and for everything else he just relies on his intuition. He'd never be able to articulate why he thinks the way he does, but simply say it seemed the right thing to do, and it wasn't against any of the rules he can remember.

Spinach
2016-11-23, 11:18 AM
I'd take Lawfulness as more of deference to established order where he can perceive it, and low intelligence perhaps means he doesn't spend a lot of time contemplating the actual ethical/moral issues of the law he happens to abide by.

Of course, respecting law in general doesn't mean he will always follow one. I'd imagine a Lawful Orc servant of Bhaal would opt to follow 'Roman laws when he's in Rome' unless when it opposes his more personal set of laws (like the ones set out by Bhaal). It's like how you can respect an enemy, but you'll still kill them should you meet him on the field of battle.

DigoDragon
2016-11-23, 11:43 AM
But what would a low INT character identify as "righteous"?

If they have a decent "wisdom", they could be the type that follows simple rules to live by; Don't steal, don't lie, be nice to others... I'm playing a low INT character who probably doesn't know the big words you'd find in courts, law books, etc., but the character follows basic manners that can be what a "righteous" person would follow: aid people weaker than you, don't use more force than your opponent in a fair duel, etc.

Jumping on what Hymer said, if my character had questions, they would simply ask their friends. There is a cleric in the party that is very just (and my character's wisdom is good enough to recognize that), so my character knows to ask him in such moral quandaries.

Darth Ultron
2016-11-23, 11:45 AM
I'd see this character as the ''noble savage'' type. He has personal sense o honor, righteousness, and order, and he does not care about what others think.

His ''code'' is amazingly similar to other noble savage types, most warriors, knights and other such people. And he can get along at a basic level with any ''honorable'' type person.

Though he has the fairly straightforward,i you do something wrong, then you die mentality. This is even more true for ''dishonorable'' acts

You could put it simply: he does not think overly much about anything. He is very black and white. I you do something wrong, you get punished. You do something very wrong and/or dishonorable, you are killed. He does not care about ''reasons'' or ''explanations'' or such.

Like say a halling steals all his ood and he catches him, the halling would whine and cry that ''they need the food or his starving kids''. The orc would not even listen and just kill the halling ''better your kids to have you dead then live with a thief.''

Keltest
2016-11-23, 11:48 AM
The first thought that leaps to my mind is the guy who keeps asking "Is it okay to kill this one, boss?" He knows he's likely to get it wrong, so he defers to someone he believes knows better. But someone with low int could possibly get by on having a more average wisdom score. Without the int he bungles the specific rules and doesn't really bother with them a whole lot. He has maybe a handful clear and fairly simple ones that he considers set in stone, and for everything else he just relies on his intuition. He'd never be able to articulate why he thinks the way he does, but simply say it seemed the right thing to do, and it wasn't against any of the rules he can remember.

I agree with this, but for bonus points, that boss could be the literal Voice of Bhaal! It's driven him insane and serves as the evil equivalent to a conscience, telling him when it is and is not ok to do stuff. And it serves as an excuse when you need to take an action that an int 6 orc probably wouldn't think of on their own.

Flickerdart
2016-11-23, 12:04 PM
Intelligence has no bearing on determining the righteousness of an act, except insofar as that righteousness might be legally defined. An idea as vague as righteousness is more of a Wisdom issue. Your orc won't be a lawyer, but he should have no trouble knowing right from wrong. Those ideas come from his society, not his ability scores.

Rogozhin
2016-11-23, 12:21 PM
I actually think it would be easier to play lawfullness/righteousness with low intelligence. Just like in real life it's easier to follow a rule of law or faith dogmatic ally if you don't see nuance and don't have the mental capacity for analysis.

thedanster7000
2016-11-23, 12:39 PM
I actually think it would be easier to play lawfullness/righteousness with low intelligence. Just like in real life it's easier to follow a rule of law or faith dogmatic ally if you don't see nuance and don't have the mental capacity for analysis.
Precisely; just have him obey whoever he admires/follows/fears blindly and without question.

Maxilian
2016-11-23, 01:22 PM
Intelligence has no bearing on determining the righteousness of an act, except insofar as that righteousness might be legally defined. An idea as vague as righteousness is more of a Wisdom issue. Your orc won't be a lawyer, but he should have no trouble knowing right from wrong. Those ideas come from his society, not his ability scores.

Yeah, but because of his INT, and the way he was indoctrinated, he did not have a connection with Society (an Orc in the end), and the idea of Righteousness is not something, i think, he will understand completely, so i wanted to give him more of a "Law of the Strong" (where they get what they need, but in the end, despising senseless murder and things like that, in the end, its not like Bhaal is a good god that cares about the weak or anything like -nor those the orcs in general-) so i don't think he will care about the weak or anything like that

Maxilian
2016-11-23, 01:24 PM
I agree with this, but for bonus points, that boss could be the literal Voice of Bhaal! It's driven him insane and serves as the evil equivalent to a conscience, telling him when it is and is not ok to do stuff. And it serves as an excuse when you need to take an action that an int 6 orc probably wouldn't think of on their own.

I like both ideas (of Bhaal and the just ask the Cleric for permission )

Maxilian
2016-11-23, 01:31 PM
If they have a decent "wisdom", they could be the type that follows simple rules to live by; Don't steal, don't lie, be nice to others... I'm playing a low INT character who probably doesn't know the big words you'd find in courts, law books, etc., but the character follows basic manners that can be what a "righteous" person would follow: aid people weaker than you, don't use more force than your opponent in a fair duel, etc.


Right now i have it like he hates stealing, mostly because stealing give the victim a "righteous" reason to murder someone (I was looking at it as more like an Animal that got its food stolen)

Flickerdart
2016-11-23, 03:17 PM
Yeah, but because of his INT, and the way he was indoctrinated, he did not have a connection with Society (an Orc in the end)
This is ridiculous. Orcs are intelligent beings, and have a society. Unless they are literally solitary for their entire lives.


and the idea of Righteousness is not something, i think, he will understand completely,
Every society has an idea of righteousness. Even the baby eater aliens (http://robinhanson.typepad.com/files/three-worlds-collide.pdf) have an idea of righteousness (their idea of righteousness is eating babies).


so i wanted to give him more of a "Law of the Strong" (where they get what they need, but in the end, despising senseless murder and things like that, in the end, its not like Bhaal is a good god that cares about the weak or anything like -nor those the orcs in general-) so i don't think he will care about the weak or anything like that
The purpose of "righteousness" as a concept is to maintain stability within the society. This usually only means that you must only kill the people your leader permits you to kill. At its simplest, those people are "not us." Non-orcs? Killing them is righteous. Weak orcs? Killing them is righteous (after all, we are strong, right?) Traitors that plot to usurp the leader? Killing them is righteous.

Maxilian
2016-11-23, 03:39 PM
This is ridiculous. Orcs are intelligent beings, and have a society. Unless they are literally solitary for their entire lives.

Yes you're completely right, i'm sorry, i meant that they don't have the type of society as human does (the Orc society goes mainly with the rule "The Stronger rule the weak") and even there, he was mainly an "Acolyte" -by an Acolyte i mean he was always in the temple or doing missions (Killing non-rightheous murderers -AKA those that the head of the cult told them to kill-)



Every society has an idea of righteousness. Even the baby eater aliens (http://robinhanson.typepad.com/files/three-worlds-collide.pdf) have an idea of righteousness (their idea of righteousness is eating babies).


Yes i understand that they have an idea of it, but as you mention it could change a lot depending on the society they come from



The purpose of "righteousness" as a concept is to maintain stability within the society. This usually only means that you must only kill the people your leader permits you to kill. At its simplest, those people are "not us." Non-orcs? Killing them is righteous. Weak orcs? Killing them is righteous (after all, we are strong, right?) Traitors that plot to usurp the leader? Killing them is righteous.

This sound right, it helps a lot (thanks), though i need to work around this a little bit, cause in the end, he's someone that have to work with non-orcs (The other PC and will most likely be in many places that are populated by non-orcs), so i want to put the "righteousness" only in the concept of his God (murder) without having it be a big conflict with the group.

Flickerdart
2016-11-23, 04:02 PM
Okay, so he is raised by the church. That helps a bit. The role of the church in society is typically to prop up the leaders (though there is some control of the leaders by the church too). The particular cult of Bhaal (every society has its interpretations of scripture!) will have been informed by the priorities of the society's leaders, so we're pretty much back to "kill the people the leader lets you kill."

But just because you are allowed to do something does not mean you must do it. The orc knows he is no longer a member of orc society, but instead cosmopolitan society. This society still has outsiders and lawbreakers. Killing them is righteous, because they endanger his people's order. But he has led a life of killing the people he was told to kill by his priests. He is not likely to develop initiative, so he might seethe at people who are weak and treasonous, but would not kill them wantonly unless his leader commanded him to do so (unless the violation was particularly severe).

It's interesting to note that stability goes both ways - a weak ruler is a threat to the stability of a community. The orc will be happy to support any contender that is stronger than the current leader, because how could it not be righteous to kill a weak leader and install a strong one?

Jama7301
2016-11-23, 06:26 PM
So he's Lawful Stupid (No Really)?

On topic, I like this character conceptually. The premise seems really interesting and can open up for some interesting situations, especially if two people the Orc respects have differing opions on what is "Right" in a given situation.

Mechalich
2016-11-23, 07:26 PM
So you have a low intelligence lawful character who is part of a religious organization.

The core of this character would then be loyalty to the ideals of the church - its just that his understanding of those ideals would be limited. At Int 6, he might have the theological understanding of the average 10 year old despite being an adult. As a lawful character he's also going to be loyal to his superiors and will make good faith efforts to complete tasks as assigned without deviation.

Interesting points of conflict: this character will be vulnerable to manipulation by people who can spin theological circles around him (sort of the religious equivalent of drowning a person in legalese) in order to justify just about anything. This is especially true if he lacks a high wisdom - which would enable intuiting that maybe certain things are a bad idea. He is also likely to assume that his superiors are lawful like he is, meaning he assumes they are acting in good faith even when - since this is the Church of Bhaal - they often are not.

This seems to me like the kind of loyal guard character who strikes down the high priest when the hero shows up with evidence that he's corrupt and has been embezzling the holy offerings.

PersonMan
2016-11-24, 01:32 AM
I'd take Lawfulness as more of deference to established order where he can perceive it, and low intelligence perhaps means he doesn't spend a lot of time contemplating the actual ethical/moral issues of the law he happens to abide by.

Another option is that he does actually spend a lot of time in contemplation, considering the ramifications of various actions and legal codes - either without result, because he can't grasp it, or as a way to make it so he can grasp it. Instead of being a genius who fully understands the law, he's simply spent so many hours working to learn it that he has a solid understanding of it despite being unintelligent.

FreddyNoNose
2016-11-24, 01:35 AM
I actually think it would be easier to play lawfullness/righteousness with low intelligence. Just like in real life it's easier to follow a rule of law or faith dogmatic ally if you don't see nuance and don't have the mental capacity for analysis.

If played correctly, it would appear to be no different than a high functioning 1st edition adnd Paladin! lol

Koo Rehtorb
2016-11-24, 01:59 AM
I don't think it takes overly many brains to identify a decent sized list of "goods" and "bads", particularly with help. Played with greatest effect if attached to someone good with brains who can direct them.

Mystral
2016-11-24, 04:32 AM
A low int lawfull character propably has a set of very clear, simply worded rules that he does not break, and doesn't try to weasel around, either, because that would be beyond them. One of those rules, and maybe the rule that supercedes all the other, can be "Do what I'm told by my boss".

If he had a moderate to high wisdom score, he'd propably memorise the sayings, rulings and actions of other people of his faith and emulate them when faced with a similiar situation, and go with his gut feeling in other cases.

Segev
2016-11-24, 12:18 PM
Low int lawful is a stubborn variety of hidebound. When confronted with difficult choices, they default to a learned set of behaviors. They can be "too dumb to fool" if the one doing the fooling is not careful. They will, when faced with apparent contradiction, fall back on almost mantra-like rules.

SpoonR
2016-11-24, 12:43 PM
Int: Did this person break any of the rules? (what the rules are is determined by his superiors)
Wis: Does this person need killin?

Low int would mean simpler rules. Low Wis would mean easily tricked into believing they must die, and probably a more black/white worldview. Average or higher Wis might mean exactly "always stand next to a superior who can tell you if someone broke a rule"

Possible examples of this kind of character
Miko?
Been rewatching Bleach, so Jidanbo. Very simple rules. Always wash hands before eating. Kill anyone trying to go through the gate. If someone defeats you, then obviously they are allowed to go through the gate :smallconfused:.
The Lord Darcy series had a character born without a conscience, had a geas put on him that he could only kill when given permission by his boss, but must kill when he has permission.

Side thought, wouldn't this be something like a person stuck with a poorly worded geas? Has to follow the strict wording (lawful), can't come up with exceptions on their own (low int), tries to stay near a rules lawyer who can explain him out of bad ideas (middlin to high wis)?

Maxilian
2016-11-24, 03:08 PM
So you have a low intelligence lawful character who is part of a religious organization.

The core of this character would then be loyalty to the ideals of the church - its just that his understanding of those ideals would be limited. At Int 6, he might have the theological understanding of the average 10 year old despite being an adult. As a lawful character he's also going to be loyal to his superiors and will make good faith efforts to complete tasks as assigned without deviation.

Yeah, i kind of wanted to give him the understand of religion a child have (A child that have been raised by a religious family) to the point that, every Cleric / Priest is a servant of Bhaal (he doesn't understand that there are more than 1 God, cause Bhaal is the only God for him)



Interesting points of conflict: this character will be vulnerable to manipulation by people who can spin theological circles around him (sort of the religious equivalent of drowning a person in legalese) in order to justify just about anything. This is especially true if he lacks a high wisdom - which would enable intuiting that maybe certain things are a bad idea. He is also likely to assume that his superiors are lawful like he is, meaning he assumes they are acting in good faith even when - since this is the Church of Bhaal - they often are not.

Yeah, that's one of the main reason why i want to have him as LE (cause the Chruch of Bhaal are not that... well... good and he wouldn't question what they ask of him), so he would do anything their leaders told him to do (As the Church of the God of Murder, its most likely to take out X or Y infidel)



This seems to me like the kind of loyal guard character who strikes down the high priest when the hero shows up with evidence that he's corrupt and has been embezzling the holy offerings.

I, wouldn't be surprised if that, eventually, become one of his quests (knowing my DM)

Maxilian
2016-11-24, 03:11 PM
I don't think it takes overly many brains to identify a decent sized list of "goods" and "bads", particularly with help. Played with greatest effect if attached to someone good with brains who can direct them.

The problem is that i don't want him to lose the identity of an Orc (have some of their racial custom and all) but not to the point that it would be impossible for him to work with non-orc people (Also i doubt Orcs have the same idea of Good and Bad as others -Murder and explotation of the Weak is not bad for them, what is bad for them is the idea of being weak itself-)

dps
2016-11-26, 07:52 PM
I kind of reject the notion that a low INT character necessarily has less understanding of "right" and "wrong" than more intelligent characters. IMO, what's "right" and "wrong" is determined more by what values one holds than by logic and reason. So I don't think this character would be particularly vulnerable to being manipulated by others as to what behavior is right or wrong.

Where the character will be vulnerable to being manipulated is in the facts of a specific situation. For example, this character and a much more intelligent lawful character might both believe that someone who murders everyone in a shop while robbing the shop needs to be punished by death, but the low intelligence character would be much more likely to believe that a person accused of the crime was actually the guilty party, whereas a more intelligent character might be more inclined to investigate whether or not the accused was actually the guilty party, and a much more intelligent character might question whether or not the crime actually occurred as alleged at all.

Herobizkit
2016-11-27, 05:56 AM
If the Church is picking his targets for him, that's one thing. He could also be a firm believer of "Natural Law", ie. how the beasts in nature tend to act.

Perhaps he models himself after the noble lion.
* you are the leader of his pack and generally the strongest, so if you are not, you will strive to be.
* "the darker and fuller the mane, the healthier the lion" - so you have some kind of crazy headdress that shows your superiority to others, or perhaps show deference to the "guy with the biggest helmet" ^_^
* Lions have a pride, and so you should have a retinue of loyal followers/mates which you rule without question.
* Bhaal wants murders to be grisly and prominent, so maybe you use claw-like weapons to rend his foes and smears blood on his face as if he were eating his kill (or maybe he straight up eats a piece of his kill...)

(This is sounding more Malar than Bhaal lol)

Low Int doesn't means you're slow so much as you don't get complex concepts. You learn by doing, or having someone show you how. You don't often question theoretical concepts like morality or makes detailed plans. The hunter hunts for food, but you hunt for glory in the name of Bhaal.

Trope-wise, think of Grimlock from G1 Transformers as a Noble Savage. He respects strength, but is himself the strongest and leads his own faction of Dinobots. While Grimlock's strength rivals that of Optimus Prime, Grimlock defers to him because he recognizes that strength alone doesn't make for a great leader - compassion, self-sacrifice, and respect are needed as well. Once Grimlock is called upon to 'unleash hell', however, nothing stands in the way of his goals and success.

Also in the comic continuity, "Grimlock [...] still talks in the caveman dialect of his animated counterpart, but is one of the Autobots' most brilliant leaders, often coming off as a sort of brutally cunning Josef Stalin to Prime's FDR (or Prime's Churchill, if you're reading Marvel UK)."

Pauly
2016-11-28, 01:28 AM
The best advice I ever got about playing low int characters generally is to have very short (5 to 10 second) decision making phases. "Me hit that orc with sword." not, "I will take three steps to the left and then sidestep this minion and engage the most dangerous enemy in a flanking attack"

By having the character make really quick decisions your character will make sometimes bad decisions especially in nuanced situations which reasonably simulates the downside of low intelligence. It annoys me when players use their own intelligence to give low int characters Sun Tzu like tactical acumen.

So when you have non combat decisions, you either make quick decisions based on clear moral rules, follow the advice of your leader, or stand around scratching your head. It can be fun to frustrate other players by having your character standing around with a dazed look on his face while they give overly complex instructions, otherwise other players can abuse the "I'm giving him guidance" schtick. You want to play as your own character, not "Blaster" from "MasterBlaster" in Beyond Thunderdome.

SickBritKid
2016-11-28, 01:35 AM
There's a trope for this one!

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid

Probably more well-meaning or as much of a jerk as the typical examples of that trope, though.

That said, be prepared to have some unusually insightful lines in the event of a nat 20/high roll on Int checks.

A good stock one is, of course: "[Character] just pawn in Game of Life."

Flickerdart
2016-11-28, 10:24 AM
That said, be prepared to have some unusually insightful lines in the event of a nat 20/high roll on Int checks.

A good stock one is, of course: "[Character] just pawn in Game of Life."

Platitudes are covered by WIS, not INT.

wumpus
2016-11-28, 10:56 AM
There's a trope for this one!

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid

Probably more well-meaning or as much of a jerk as the typical examples of that trope, though.

That said, be prepared to have some unusually insightful lines in the event of a nat 20/high roll on Int checks.

A good stock one is, of course: "[Character] just pawn in Game of Life."

Except that this is lawful stupid because the character is stupid, so it pretty much inverts the trope of lawful stupid because lawful. And pretty believable in that a sufficiently low INT likely precludes the concept of exceptions and how to evaluate them. Of course, a less lawful character with a reasonable wisdom score could make a less stupid neutral/stupid chaotic character, but presumably such character was raised to follow the *rules*.

I'm guessing that the INT defines the mental capabilities of this character more than the WIS. Presumably WIS defines alertness and physical presences, INT defines social/tactical "what is going on". Lots of ways to interpret such a stat block.

N810
2016-11-28, 10:57 AM
hmmm lawfull stupid with low wisdom and some cha...

Zapp Brannigan :smallbiggrin:

Delicious Taffy
2016-11-28, 03:41 PM
I don't know if this has been suggested already, but what about a simple farmer type? He ain't the smartest, but he knows right from wrong well enough, and this business about some loony warlock taking over the kingdom and summoning up the dead just don't sit right with him.

Maxilian
2016-11-29, 11:50 AM
I don't know if this has been suggested already, but what about a simple farmer type? He ain't the smartest, but he knows right from wrong well enough, and this business about some loony warlock taking over the kingdom and summoning up the dead just don't sit right with him.

Its an Orc, as far as i know they are not that much of a farmer (Also it have a Religious connection, mainly cause i plan on playing the Zealot Barbarian -One of the new UA we got-)

Maxilian
2016-11-29, 11:52 AM
If the Church is picking his targets for him, that's one thing. He could also be a firm believer of "Natural Law", ie. how the beasts in nature tend to act.

Perhaps he models himself after the noble lion.
* you are the leader of his pack and generally the strongest, so if you are not, you will strive to be.
* "the darker and fuller the mane, the healthier the lion" - so you have some kind of crazy headdress that shows your superiority to others, or perhaps show deference to the "guy with the biggest helmet" ^_^
* Lions have a pride, and so you should have a retinue of loyal followers/mates which you rule without question.
* Bhaal wants murders to be grisly and prominent, so maybe you use claw-like weapons to rend his foes and smears blood on his face as if he were eating his kill (or maybe he straight up eats a piece of his kill...)


Really like this, mainly cause the character concept is basically this:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/6f/1b/1d/6f1b1d6ca7b043191d8716866d492ae1.jpg

And this give it a good way to roleplay the giant Afro, and i did wanted to go with a more "Law of the Nature" so its even better