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CunningKindred
2016-11-23, 10:22 AM
Every since I first read the 5E multiclass rules I've been considering the possibility of multiclassed archetypes. These would be archetypes that would replace the usual class-specific archetypes for a particular type of multiclass option and allow a character to gain a better fusion of the two classes. Essentially, it would allow the GM to better control the merging of the two classes and so allow for the more general restrictions on multiclassing to be relaxed a little since the combinations are known upfront and not decided by the player.

I've now started writing a few of these and I thought I'd run them past you good folk. Attached you will find:

The Fochlucan Lyrist - a Druid / Bard multiclass
The Ultimate Magus - a Sorcerer / Wizard multiclass
The Chosen of Magic - a Sorcerer /Warlock multiclass
The College Patron - a Bard / Warlock multiclass
The Darksoul Delver - a Rogue / Warlock multiclass
The Untamed Savage - a Barbarian / Fighter multiclass

25/11/2016 - added the following

The Arcane Trickster - a variant that allows the Arcane Trickster to properly exploit mult-iclassing
The Eldritch Knight - the same for the Eldritch Knight

26/11/2016 - added The Demonblade - a Warlock / Fighter multiclass and updated the Darksoul Delver to more accurately represent the nature of spell progression for multiclassed characters

28/11/2016 - added the Reclusive Mystic - a Druid / Monk multiclass
28/11/2016 - added Way of the Shrouded Fist - a Monk / Rogue multiclass


30/11/2016 - some miscellaneous tweaks to the Demonblade and the change of name to The Shrouded Way for the Monk/Rogue hybrid

The Multiclass Options: Multiclass Archetypes (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3q7u6o0wdf8z8tv/Multiclass%20Archetypes28112016.pdf?dl=0)

Have moved the miscellaneous options to: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d6omqwl5c3sgai0/Miscellaneous%20Stuff24112016.pdf?dl=0

Squiddish
2016-11-23, 09:24 PM
I personally like these, as they give much more depth to multiclassing, and give much better fluff (and crunch) for multiclassed mages.

I'll note that you need to be very wary about allowing access to higher level spells, since that's supposed to be one of the major disadvantages. However, that is also what makes these archetypes so unique. The reduced cantrips is a fairly good disadvantage under some conditions, but it's meaningless if you take a level of wizard followed by a level of sorcerer.
EDIT: Actually, looking back I saw that it wasn't as bad as I thought, the higher level abilities make up for it without worsening the flavor.

If you're taking suggestions, bard/warlock or fighter/barbarian might be good as the next combos to pursue.

Jamgretter
2016-11-23, 09:40 PM
These are really cool, with one issue I notice. The items the druid/bard and sorcerer/warlock aren't explained.They just happen and give benefits, what do you do if it's destroyed or you lose it? This also means you can't use a special spell focus like a wand of the warmage. I'd let them recreate it as a ritual, and turn a focus into these special focuses as a ritual.

CunningKindred
2016-11-24, 01:37 PM
Thanks for the feedback.

I've done some updates. I've separated out the miscellaneous homebrew stuff into a separate file.


If you're taking suggestions, bard/warlock or fighter/barbarian might be good as the next combos to pursue.

You will find the College Patron (a Bard/Warlock cross) and the Untamed Savage (a Barbarian/Fighter cross) and my favourite so far in the document along with a Warlock /Rogue cross. I would love to know what you think.

The Multiclass Options: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bn198csj0twggo4/Multiclass%20Archetypes24112016.pdf?dl=0

Have moved the miscellaneous options to: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d6omqwl5c3sgai0/Miscellaneous%20Stuff24112016.pdf?dl=0

CunningKindred
2016-11-25, 01:08 PM
I had an idea for expanding the Arcane Trickster as a Rogue / Wizard multiclass option and the Eldritch Knight as a Fighter / Wizard option, allowing them to better exploit the mutli-classing system but while remaining completely backward compatible. I thought I'd see what people think?

Multiclass Archetypes (https://www.dropbox.com/s/zlliczarahmrxbd/Multiclass%20Archetypes25112016.pdf?dl=0)

CunningKindred
2016-11-26, 05:37 PM
Have added another option:

The Demonblade - a Warlock / Fighter multiclass that can be taken as a standard Fighter archetype

I have also tweaked the Darksoul Delver to be slightly smoother in terms of spell progression.

NightDweller
2016-11-27, 09:13 PM
Do you have plans for a Druid/Monk?

CunningKindred
2016-11-28, 05:39 AM
Do you have plans for a Druid/Monk?

I shall give it some thought. I suppose a monk who retires to the wilderness to avoid distractions and draws on the power of nature to enhance his Ki. I haven't done much with the monk yet as its quite a complicated class. Could be an interesting challenge.

CunningKindred
2016-11-28, 09:35 AM
Have added the Reclusive Mystic to the document. As requested, a monk/druid multiclass. Not an easy fusion mechanically. Those two classes are really at odds with each other. This option seems markedly better than the elemental archetype under monk but it follows the same mechanics as the other builds and at this moment I'm thinking it might be ok. Not really sure. I'll see what you all think.

Multiclass Archetypes (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3q7u6o0wdf8z8tv/Multiclass%20Archetypes28112016.pdf?dl=0)

JBPuffin
2016-11-28, 11:45 AM
This is...a wonderful yet bizarre use of archetypes. I'll want to do some testing with this at some point. In the meantime, I'd take a look at some of Pathfinder's hybrid classes for inspiration. Their Barbarian/Sorcerer is great.

There's this thing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0jQD4g1XaTTd0dnZlZSVVZQTU0/view?usp=sharing) I've been working on which I offer up to be fused with things. Any of the primal classes could cross with this flavor-wise...not sure how the progression would end up, though :smallbiggrin:.

NightDweller
2016-11-28, 02:38 PM
Have added the Reclusive Mystic to the document. As requested, a monk/druid multiclass. Not an easy fusion mechanically. Those two classes are really at odds with each other. This option seems markedly better than the elemental archetype under monk but it follows the same mechanics as the other builds and at this moment I'm thinking it might be ok. Not really sure. I'll see what you all think.

Multiclass Archetypes (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3q7u6o0wdf8z8tv/Multiclass%20Archetypes28112016.pdf?dl=0)

It is very good IMO.

I had an idea for a mixture of the Assassin Rouge and the Shadow Monk to make a Shinobi-esque (aka Ninja-esque) class if you are interested.

CunningKindred
2016-11-28, 04:50 PM
I had an idea for a mixture of the Assassin Rouge and the Shadow Monk to make a Shinobi-esque (aka Ninja-esque) class if you are interested.

It would seem great minds think alike. I've been working on a rogue / monk idea for a few days but it wasn't until I delved into the monk to do the Reclusive Mystic that I found a connection or two in the two classes that would allow for a merging. So, I've added The Way of the Shrouded Fist to the document. Its very similar to what you suggested.

Sicarius Victis
2016-11-28, 07:42 PM
I'd just like to point out that the Demonblade's Expanded Spell List is wrong. True Strike is a Cantrip, not a 1st-level, and Haste is 3rd-level, not 4th.

NightDweller
2016-11-29, 01:30 AM
It would seem great minds think alike. I've been working on a rogue / monk idea for a few days but it wasn't until I delved into the monk to do the Reclusive Mystic that I found a connection or two in the two classes that would allow for a merging. So, I've added The Way of the Shrouded Fist to the document. Its very similar to what you suggested.

Indeed, the only part I dislike it the name. As an assassin like this archetype would certainly not be using the fist but rather the dagger, shortsword, hand-crossbow, and things like that.

Perhaps the phrase "Shadow Warrior" might make more sense?

In any case this is a nitpick at best.

NightDweller
2016-11-29, 01:37 AM
I was hoping to start a recruitment thread later today to playtest some of these archetypes in a game.

Is that okay with you?

CunningKindred
2016-11-29, 02:33 AM
I'd just like to point out that the Demonblade's Expanded Spell List is wrong. True Strike is a Cantrip, not a 1st-level, and Haste is 3rd-level, not 4th.

Thanks for this. I'll fix it with the next update.


Indeed, the only part I dislike it the name. As an assassin like this archetype would certainly not be using the fist but rather the dagger, shortsword, hand-crossbow, and things like that.

Perhaps the phrase "Shadow Warrior" might make more sense?

I had a similar issue with the name but I was trying to conform to the "Way of the ..." method used by the monk. I liked shrouded but didn't like weapon, dagger or knife as the follow up. I'll give it some more thought.



I was hoping to start a recruitment thread later today to playtest some of these archetypes in a game.

Is that okay with you?

Of course. It would be awesome to get some feedback from actual play.

NightDweller
2016-11-29, 10:59 AM
Here is a link to the campaign I am starting for it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507492-D-amp-D-5e-Multiclass-Archetypes-Campaign&p=21437865#post21437865

Sicarius Victis
2016-11-29, 12:00 PM
I had a similar issue with the name but I was trying to conform to the "Way of the ..." method used by the monk. I liked shrouded but didn't like weapon, dagger or knife as the follow up. I'll give it some more thought.

Could just call it "Way of the Shroud", or something similar.

NightDweller
2016-11-29, 08:25 PM
Could just call it "Way of the Shroud", or something similar.

Perhaps the Shrouded Path?

CunningKindred
2016-11-30, 02:21 AM
I'm thinking I might just use "The Shrouded Way". Its close to the original "way" scheme and simple.

Ultra4Life
2016-11-30, 03:06 AM
I have one question - with the Reclusive Mystic for its Nature's Bounty ability, it says the following for its final tier ability:

"When you become a 3rd level Monk and a 15th level Druid or a 9th level Monk and a 13th level Druid, you gain a 9th level Nature's Bounty. You regain each of your Nature's Bounties when you finish a long rest."

By my math, the second option is impossible in 5e. You'd need to be a level 22 character to take advantage of it. Unless there's recently been rules released for levels beyond 20 that I'm not aware of, in which case disregard this.

Ok, less question more observation but still something worth mentioning.

CunningKindred
2016-11-30, 06:40 AM
Thanks for that. I missed it completely.

Kobard
2016-11-30, 08:31 AM
Interesting options. There are a few combinations I would not mind seeing you try your hand based on other common or classic multiclass options:
* Paladin / (Draconic) Sorcerer
* Paladin / Bard
* General Cleric / Wizard: classic mystic theurge
* Cleric / Necromancer Wizard: a true master of life and death

JBPuffin
2016-11-30, 07:29 PM
I have one question - with the Reclusive Mystic for its Nature's Bounty ability, it says the following for its final tier ability:

"When you become a 3rd level Monk and a 15th level Druid or a 9th level Monk and a 13th level Druid, you gain a 9th level Nature's Bounty. You regain each of your Nature's Bounties when you finish a long rest."

By my math, the second option is impossible in 5e. You'd need to be a level 22 character to take advantage of it. Unless there's recently been rules released for levels beyond 20 that I'm not aware of, in which case disregard this.

Ok, less question more observation but still something worth mentioning.

DMG has epic rules, actually. Check them in the back.

Sicarius Victis
2016-11-30, 09:52 PM
Actually, I've been meaning to ask: If you're multiclassed and using oje of these subclasses, does it count as the subclass for BOTH classes, or just one?

Example: For a multiclassed Rogue/Warlock, does Darksoul Delver count as both their Roguish Archetype and their Otherwordly Patron, or just one of those?

CunningKindred
2016-12-01, 01:43 AM
Actually, I've been meaning to ask: If you're multiclassed and using oje of these subclasses, does it count as the subclass for BOTH classes, or just one?

Example: For a multiclassed Rogue/Warlock, does Darksoul Delver count as both their Roguish Archetype and their Otherwordly Patron, or just one of those?

It counts as both. By giving up both archetypes you provide the "room" so to speak for the abilities that the multiclass option offers.

CunningKindred
2016-12-01, 02:51 AM
Just to let everyone know: I've done an update for the Fochlucan Lyrist - just to take advantage of all the things I've learnt since doing the poor guy. He was the first and I think the new layout and options will allow for a smoother and more fun progression.


* Paladin / (Draconic) Sorcerer
* Paladin / Bard
* General Cleric / Wizard: classic mystic theurge
* Cleric / Necromancer Wizard: a true master of life and death

I will try to look into doing one or more of these in the next few days. I've got some ideas for the Paladin Sorcerer but I am a little concerned about the power level of the cleric / wizard combinations because I think having access to the cleric and wizard spell lists is a little more powerful than the other combinations I've worked with. The two classes are just so different and this potentially introduces a lot of versatility into one character.

CunningKindred
2016-12-01, 04:30 AM
Have added the Oath of the Wyrm - a draconic Paladin / Sorcerer multiclass

Kobard
2016-12-01, 06:03 AM
I will try to look into doing one or more of these in the next few days. I've got some ideas for the Paladin Sorcerer

Have added the Oath of the Wyrm - a draconic Paladin / Sorcerer multiclassThanks.


but I am a little concerned about the power level of the cleric / wizard combinations because I think having access to the cleric and wizard spell lists is a little more powerful than the other combinations I've worked with. The two classes are just so different and this potentially introduces a lot of versatility into one character.That is a natural concern, and one that I also share, but the "mystic theurge" is a fairly common combo. Of course, it may be easier to simply play either an Arcana cleric or provide a "theurge" tradition for wizards. But I was curious to see your take on this combination. It would probably be more feasible with the Grave/Death/Life Cleric and Necro Wizard as one could limit the spell lists more readily around thematic spells than the more generalist mystic theurge.

CunningKindred
2016-12-01, 12:53 PM
I've added a Mystic Theurge for your consideration. This one is really difficult to judge in terms of balance. I'd be interested to hear what people think.

Sicarius Victis
2016-12-02, 02:10 AM
Honestly, the Demonblade Expanded Spell List just feels kind of off. I feel like the Demonblade is a lot more likely to give their wielder spells based around using the sword in combat, rather than knowledge-focused utility spells. Smite spells, Haste, the kind of spells that would enhance the weapon itself and the wielder's ability to use it. The spell list now feels more appropriate for a GOOlock or a Lore Bard.

Also, Identify definitely shouldn't be on the list, considering that the subclass description specificly called out the Demonblade's jealousy of the wielder's other possessions.

CunningKindred
2016-12-02, 06:41 AM
I am also thinking haste and a smite spell might be appropriate. The identify thing was simply because I reasoned the blade would recognise its rivals and be able to tell what they were but now I think about it, I suppose it probably wouldn't be very willing to share that information with the wielder.

I'm concerned about putting too many smite spells on the list because I feel strongly that that's the purview of the Paladin and I don't want to tread on that.

Has anyone else noticed that the Paladins spell destructive smite (on their list) doesn't actually exist? Is that a print error in my copy that got errata'd at some point.

Sicarius, if you could pick just one of the smite spells for the Demonblade, which do you think would be the best match?

Sicarius Victis
2016-12-02, 10:52 AM
I am also thinking haste and a smite spell might be appropriate. The identify thing was simply because I reasoned the blade would recognise its rivals and be able to tell what they were but now I think about it, I suppose it probably wouldn't be very willing to share that information with the wielder.

Yeah, that's basically what I was thinking there too.


I'm concerned about putting too many smite spells on the list because I feel strongly that that's the purview of the Paladin and I don't want to tread on that.

True. But the Demonblade doesn't need many. And besides, the Paladin has a lot of other fun spells to go along with them.


Has anyone else noticed that the Paladins spell destructive smite (on their list) doesn't actually exist? Is that a print error in my copy that got errata'd at some point.

It's actually supposed to say Destructive Wave, which IS actually a spell in the PHB.


Sicarius, if you could pick just one of the smite spells for the Demonblade, which do you think would be the best match?

I'd probably have yo go with Searing or Wrathful. Both are flavourful, both are low-level enough to actually be used. I'd say Wrathful is slightly more likely given what the sword is, but Searing gets benefits when used from a higher-level spell slot, which is quite important for a Warlock.

Ultra4Life
2016-12-04, 03:38 AM
Another Reclusive Mystic issues I've found.

Draw Upon Nature
Prerequisite: 1st Level Druid and 3rd Level Druid

So either one of those is supposed to be Monk levels, or it has an ability that it gains at level 1 and another at level 3.

I'm inclined to believe you meant:

1st Level Druid and 3rd Level Monk

since all three of its previous abilities mention being a 3rd level monk. In fact all of its abilities require at least 3 levels in monk.

Other than that should point out I do love the Reclusive Mystic. It's my favorite option you've created, as you may figure out given it's the only one I'm paying attention to. I like Monks and really like them having supernatural abilities beyond special ways to punch things. This makes that a lot more fun.

CunningKindred
2016-12-04, 04:56 AM
Other than that should point out I do love the Reclusive Mystic. It's my favorite option you've created, as you may figure out given it's the only one I'm paying attention to. I like Monks and really like them having supernatural abilities beyond special ways to punch things. This makes that a lot more fun.

:smallsmile: Really pleased you like them. And you are right. Its supposed to be 1st level druid and 3rd level monk. It'll be fixed on the next update.

Ultra4Life
2016-12-04, 05:39 AM
One more thing about the Reclusive Mystic - not super thrilled about its final ability. Admittedly the core abilities the class got were already really powerful - a lot more Ki than your standard monk gets (though that's to compensate for not getting any druid spell slots), and access to powerful ki based abilities from the druid - so it's acceptable that it has more than a few ribbons (abilities that are cool/flavorful, but not all that useful without getting really creative) like getting speak with animals and plants.

But its last ability only does something when the Mystic dies, and the earliest they can get it is level 16. At that point there's more than likely someone in the party who can cast either Raise Dead or Reincarnate, and you almost certainly have someone who can cast Resurrection. Add to that the fact that by this point a Cleric could easily afford to have Revivify prepared at all times, the only real way this ability would ever have any real use is if not only the Mystic died, but everything went incredibly bad for everyone involved. So its only true use is protection against a "rocks fall everyone dies" scenario.

In addition, this is actually worse than Reincarnate since (unless I'm missing some errata) Reincarnate is the one revival spell (Sans Revivify, and True Resurrection since at this point you can't cast the latter) that doesn't impose a penalty to your abilities for a few days after being revived. This gives a vibe of a common trap developers fell into with previous editions and the monk - giving them abilities that are weaker versions of what a spell caster could do later than a spell caster could do it.

Now, please don't mistake me for saying you should give this character something to make them more powerful in its place - like I said, I think it's already plenty powerful. I just think something the Mystic could use that's not necessarily a linear increase in power (maybe a lateral one) could be better.

For instance, maybe you could give it the standard "When you take the Attack action you can cast a Cantrip you know as a bonus action." ability that gishes tend to get in this edition. It'd let the mystic mix its close quarters combat and magic to a little better degree, but it wouldn't be terribly powerful. The best cantrip they have for that is Thorn Whip, 4d6 damage at level 17 or on average 14 damage (and pulling them 10 ft. closer). Comparatively they can perform a Flurry of Blows at that level, dealing unarmed+dex damage twice for a ki point. At most (between martial arts and Improved Wild Shape) their unarmed attack will be 1d10+5 (before accounting for possible magic weapons), so 2d10+10 if both hit is on average 21 damage. Which, yes, the flurry is more powerful (at the cost of 1 Ki point) but that's kinda the point as far as I'm concerned. But one hit (thanks to Martial Arts) is 10.5 damage on average, or 15 damage tops, so Thorn Whip becomes a decent at-will option for the mystic without increasing their maximum damage output. Plus it helps the mystic get into melee a bit easier. Or they could use another cantrip, I only used Thorn Whip as an example for it being the cantrip I thought would mesh best is straight up damage dealing combat.

Yes, not terribly powerful, but like I said I don't think the Reclusive Mystic really needs much more in the way of power. But it is still something the Reclusive Mystic can take advantage of when they want, rather than a "Break in case of things going horribly wrong" option that you likely won't ever use.

CunningKindred
2016-12-04, 07:19 AM
I can see your point. I'm rather fond of this level thematically for the path but I do see that it likely won't get much use at that level. First, why I've done what I've done:

I impose the penalty because their is no gp cost nor need for any other character to make this resurrection work so it seemed their should be an imposed penalty on the monk and at least a chance of successfully killing them at all (which there would not be without this limitation).

I had not introduced a "cantrip when you attack option" for precisely the reason you give. There is already flurry of blows and I don't want the mystic to stop feeling like a monk by providing them with a better option than this. Besides, proper use of their other powers provides a significant at-range advantage over other monks.

So, in preference, I would like to think of a secondary ability to put along side the resurrection, one that's thematically tied to it, but will see more utility use. I haven't got any ideas what that should be (I'm open to suggestions) but I'll have to mull it over and wait for inspiration to strike.

JBPuffin
2016-12-04, 09:43 AM
I can see your point. I'm rather fond of this level thematically for the path but I do see that it likely won't get much use at that level. First, why I've done what I've done:

I impose the penalty because their is no gp cost nor need for any other character to make this resurrection work so it seemed their should be an imposed penalty on the monk and at least a chance of successfully killing them at all (which there would not be without this limitation).

I had not introduced a "cantrip when you attack option" for precisely the reason you give. There is already flurry of blows and I don't want the mystic to stop feeling like a monk by providing them with a better option than this. Besides, proper use of their other powers provides a significant at-range advantage over other monks.

So, in preference, I would like to think of a secondary ability to put along side the resurrection, one that's thematically tied to it, but will see more utility use. I haven't got any ideas what that should be (I'm open to suggestions) but I'll have to mull it over and wait for inspiration to strike.

I think what he was saying is that they won't stop feeling like a monk, and if you're multiclassing it's partially because you want to be something more than a monk anyway, so that's a rather moot point. You shouldn't be trying to align a druid/monk fusion archetype tit-for-tat with the core monk. Is a Resurrection ability good? Yes, but it needs to be better than the spell that comea online before it. Ignore the penalties, because it only affects the monk unlike every other revival spell (which is why they have penalties, really - the caster can normally revive important quest NPCs as well), and instead give it a ki cost.

Morphic tide
2016-12-06, 12:44 PM
Would multiclass archetypes that have effects kicking in at levels of only one class, for easy sliding scales, be a better option for how to crunch? Seems less confusing to me.

For example, a Duskblade/Arcane Archer style archetype for Wizard/Fighter multiclassing that gives you the 'apply magic to weapon hits' things on the Fighter progression and 'do weird magic things with your weapon attacks' on the Wizard progression.

Furthering the example, your level 3 Fighter thing is spending spell slots for added damage and to-hit, while the level 2 Wizard thing is actually using proper spells when you hit, where you hit.

It's less headache inducing because it covers all the archetype slots without weird workarounds and gives more specialization options with less crunch text. In the above example, you can be a Fighter 18/Wizard 2, just grabbing first level spells when you hit things and some slots to burn in a pinch for some crazy effects. Or you can be a Fighter 3/Wizard 17, getting access to 9th level spells and some just martial power for when you run out of spell slots and some crazy things to do with a bow. Or a more balanced setup where you have more access to both spells and melee at a level that isn't horrible.

You'd get the 3.5 Arcane Archer Imbue Arrow and Seeker Arrow type things on the Wizard progression, but you'd get the 'burn spell slots for weapon effects' and Enhance Arrow type things on the Fighter progression in this example.

Yes, the result is that the archetype needs something for every slot on both classes, but it also makes it so that the archetype technically doesn't need both classes to use it if not wanted. Granted, you can always use 'Have both Fighter and Wizard levels' as a prerequisite. For example, if it's able to be gotten by either class alone, then the Wizard side lacks any useful weapon skills of their own. They don't have any reliable way to get the attacks to hit at high levels. However, they are free to snag Rogue levels instead of Fighter levels for their martial class, or go Paladin or Ranger on the martial class.

The point of having it as one archetype in this case it to save on book space. Those headings and tables can be surprisingly bulky... Oh, and the formatting allows for even larger varieties of character builds, with a Wizard-tied Fighter archetype using the casting of a Sorcerer for fuel, and the Sorcerer side has a Rogue-tied archetype to give access to some odd sneaky options... The requirements can be 'Has martial weapon proficiency and Arcane casting' if you want to keep to the multiclass needs but want it to be varied multiclassing instead of completely locked to class pairs.

CunningKindred
2016-12-07, 03:36 AM
Would multiclass archetypes that have effects kicking in at levels of only one class, for easy sliding scales, be a better option for how to crunch? Seems less confusing to me.

For example, a Duskblade/Arcane Archer style archetype for Wizard/Fighter multiclassing that gives you the 'apply magic to weapon hits' things on the Fighter progression and 'do weird magic things with your weapon attacks' on the Wizard progression.

Furthering the example, your level 3 Fighter thing is spending spell slots for added damage and to-hit, while the level 2 Wizard thing is actually using proper spells when you hit, where you hit.

It's less headache inducing because it covers all the archetype slots without weird workarounds and gives more specialization options with less crunch text. In the above example, you can be a Fighter 18/Wizard 2, just grabbing first level spells when you hit things and some slots to burn in a pinch for some crazy effects. Or you can be a Fighter 3/Wizard 17, getting access to 9th level spells and some just martial power for when you run out of spell slots and some crazy things to do with a bow. Or a more balanced setup where you have more access to both spells and melee at a level that isn't horrible.

You'd get the 3.5 Arcane Archer Imbue Arrow and Seeker Arrow type things on the Wizard progression, but you'd get the 'burn spell slots for weapon effects' and Enhance Arrow type things on the Fighter progression in this example.

Yes, the result is that the archetype needs something for every slot on both classes, but it also makes it so that the archetype technically doesn't need both classes to use it if not wanted. Granted, you can always use 'Have both Fighter and Wizard levels' as a prerequisite. For example, if it's able to be gotten by either class alone, then the Wizard side lacks any useful weapon skills of their own. They don't have any reliable way to get the attacks to hit at high levels. However, they are free to snag Rogue levels instead of Fighter levels for their martial class, or go Paladin or Ranger on the martial class.

The point of having it as one archetype in this case it to save on book space. Those headings and tables can be surprisingly bulky... Oh, and the formatting allows for even larger varieties of character builds, with a Wizard-tied Fighter archetype using the casting of a Sorcerer for fuel, and the Sorcerer side has a Rogue-tied archetype to give access to some odd sneaky options... The requirements can be 'Has martial weapon proficiency and Arcane casting' if you want to keep to the multiclass needs but want it to be varied multiclassing instead of completely locked to class pairs.

When I first started to try to build something like these, this was kind of the approach I used. I found that it didn't really do what I wanted though. You see, for me, the point of the system is to give control of a multiclassing character back to the game designer to a certain extent. Multiclassing in the main rules is limited in several ways, I think, precisely because its impossible for the designers to anticipate every combination and assess them. Therefore, as a rule, its less powerful than staying in one class.

When I designed these archetypes I was hoping to encourage specific builds which I could then assess as balanced and so grant them additional levels of power to bring them up to the same level as a single class character of approximately the same level. The reason that I occasionally incorporate other class abilities along the way is to make sure that the right abilities for the build turn up at appropriate character levels. With normal multiclassing, the system strongly encourages one class over another while I hoped to smooth that out and let a player explore each class as they wishes while still gaining access to the abilities they probably think they should have at appropriate levels.

You will not that some of these builds can reasonably be followed by members of one class exclusively but most can't because I found that route to be a little too powerful or odd or unthematic, so I removed it from the optimum progression the archetype was trying to encourage. Indeed, I started most of the archetypes with the idea of a 50/50 progression in each class, and built out from there because its precisely those types of characters which the base system so strongly discourages.

So that was why I drifted into the current model. Just my reasoning.

Squiddish
2016-12-23, 01:25 PM
These are seriously awesome, and I'm glad you're still adding more.

If you're looking for suggestions, a druid/wizard nature mage, a muscle wizard, or a monk/paladin (with smite punching) would be cool. I understand if you're busy, I can see these things taking quite some time.

Natal
2017-04-03, 10:06 AM
Would you please do totem warrior barbarian/druid? My thinking is a barbarian that doesn't just take on aspects of a animal during raging,they become the animal.

Sariel Vailo
2017-04-03, 01:59 PM
Not to much here.consisering the amount of multiclassing subclasses.