Link vs Samus

[Mato]

Dun-dun-dun-da-da-dun-dun-dun-it.
*pretend I have a cool looking forum battle logo here*

Multiple worlds full of endless hordes of enemies that require exploration and puzzle solving seems daunting but now when you have a vast array of items and equipment scattered along the way. Today it's all about Link the hero with all kinds of titles and Samus the space bounty hunter. I'm Mato, like tomato without the tah but spelt different, and you're the Giants of the Playground. It's our job to analyze their fully equipped weapons, items, and abilities to see who would win a Forum Battle!


http://zeldawiki.org/images/thumb/0/02/BotW_Link_Shooting_Artwork.png/170px-BotW_Link_Shooting_Artwork.png
Once a young boy that fell in love with a reincarnated goddess Link represents the spirit of the hero. Over the years and across the timelines Link always reincarnates in time to save the day. In every form Link is should to quickly master a wide verity of weapons including swords, boomerangs Those things illogically behave even worse than Cap's shield!, magic, and even whatever his happens to be using.
Age: varies, 10~17.
Height: varies, probably 5'7"
Weapons: all of them.
Armor: various enchanted tunics, chainmail and armor.
Items: limitation on potions & invincibility items.
Special Rules: no time travel, same bonus cross-game effects don't stack (ie loz's red ring and lttp's red mail)

Link's primary weapon isn't the sword in his hand but his mind. He's able to almost instantly spot when his opponent's guard is down and use his incredibly diverse gadgetry to leave them helpless to his following onslaught. He is almost always imbued with the Triforce a Courage, a McGruffin that does something. Often associated with the Goddess Farore it seems defensive and manipulate in nature, able to partially protect it's bearer from a variety of effects. He also wields hammerspace allowing him to carry almost any number of items that have no bearing on his weight or mobility unless they are being worn or used.

He is extremely athletic, able to perform backflips and side hops with ease. He also has a musical talent which also serves him well given the number of magical artifacts that require a high degree musicianship to use. Over his various lives he's saved Holodrum, Koholint Island, Labrynna, Lorule, Hyrule, Hytopia, the Sacred Realm, Subrosia, Termina, The Sky, and the Twilight Realm. He's traveled through time, met and trained him self, and even fully assembled the Triforce granting his inner most desire more than once. And he's battled in more dungeons than the D&D nerds at gamecon and defeated more overgrown creatures or magical entities than the guys on Supernatural.


http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/metroid/images/5/58/Mprime_07_big.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/150?cb=20150702054122
Like all true heroes Samus's parents were killed in front of her and she was raised to use weapons, technology, and stealth to combat her opponents. Samus was imbued with a mentally summoned variable powersuit and trained by an advanced ancient bird warrior race prior to joining the military. Finding following orders not to be one of her best qualities she quickly left and become a bounty hunter for hire.
Age: probably mid-twenties
Height: 6'3"
Weapons: all of them.
Armor: various stolen augmentations.
Items: limitation invincibility items and very little (if any) phazon.
Special Rules: same bonus cross-game effects don't stack (ie no gravity suit x4)

Samus is a walking hybrid of, well everything. Her DNA is part human, part Chozo which gives her above peak human levels of physical abilities, and part Metroid which allows her to absorb the X Parasite and presumably drain life energy using her arm talons. While her suit is Chozo in design it's able to augment it's self with foreign alien technology such as the Dark Aether. Once of the principal abilities of her suit is the morph ball transformation which safely compresses her down to about 1/4 her size as a self propelled orb.

While a bounty hunter in nature, most of her missions deal with space pirates and their fascination with a creature called the Metroid. Shes partially explored at least twenty planets and more than her share of space stations. But the one thing she can never seem to get rid of is Ridley. The space dragon that killed her parents and gets cloned, report, animated, and turned into a machine so many times Samus shouldn't even be surprised to see him Yeah, take that Team Ninja!.

But enough of that, it's time for a forum battle!
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So Giants of the Playground, who do you think would win?

[Emperor Ing]

A skilled swordsman vs one of the contenders for missing Primarch.

This is a curb-stomp battle if there ever was one. Just based on equipment alone, Samus holds a titanic edge, and that's even before you gave her full equipment. At that point, the only way to spell her name is in all-caps and with the inclusion of the honorific "destroyer of worlds" at the end.

I know i'm not putting forth arguments, but it's clear to me that what attacks Link might have would only annoy Samus at worst, since she's more likely than not carrying 12 energy tanks by now, whereas her attacks would be devastating to him, knocking out multiple hearts. What good will his shields be against the Wave Beam or the Plasma Beam? Okay, maybe the Mirror Shield can reflect beam attacks, but how about the Super Missile? Power Bomb? Does he have any options in avoiding the Skrew Attack other than to get out of the way? Link had better hope he doesn't get Shinesparked.

[Kid Jake]

My intensive research (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip-DAiuq_-4) says Link.

[KillingAScarab]

My intensive research (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip-DAiuq_-4) says Link.If you're going to use Smash as your basis, you can take note of the performance (http://shoryuken.com/2016/07/17/evo-2016-results/) of top players at this year's EVO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_Championship_Series). No one even placed in the top 32 while using Link, but in Melee there was a tie for 9th involving Duck who used Samus. In Smash 4, Zero Suit Samus is a distinct character and people placed 9th and 13th using her.

But Smash doesn't follow what's laid out in the post for Samus, which mentions this is post-Metroid 4. Not sure what "arm talons" you're talking about, but if Samus can take on Nightmare, she has the arsenal and stamina to take on Link.

♫ S-S-S-Samus Aran ♫
♫ Yeah! You are the man! ♫
♫ (Oh, no you're not!) ♫

[Forum Explorer]

What is the limitation on Invincibility and Potions? Cause Link has an invincibility item that makes him invincible so long as he has mana, and a potion that gives him infinite mana (Both in different games). I mean, clearly you mean to ban that combo by saying there is a limitation, just what specifically is it?

[Mato]

What is the limitation on Invincibility and Potions?The kind that keeps the argument from becoming "Link drinks Chateau Romani and keeps casting Nayru's Love" or some other variant of that.

A good and fair example would be Link drinking a blue potion to recover his magic bar after using the magic cloak as a counter to Samus trying to use her hypermode. Samus using concentration or crystal flash in response to Link drinking a red potion also seems sort of fair through the devil is in the details.


But Smash doesn't follow what's laid out in the post for Samus, which mentions this is post-Metroid 4. Not sure what "arm talons" you're talking about, but if Samus can take on Nightmare, she has the arsenal and stamina to take on Link.They are in the art and on the box.
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/metroid/images/5/54/Metroid_Fusion_box_art.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/280?cb=20070718152055
And to be lazy and quote the wiki

As a result of the infusion, Samus gained immunity to X Parasites, but also inherited the Metroid’s crippling weakness to cold, though this disability is canceled out with a later Varia Suit upgrade. She does not seem to have inherited their ability to float, and still relies on the Space Jump to do so. It is currently unknown whether Samus has inherited the Metroid’s signature ability to leech life energy from other lifeforms, aside from the well-documented X Parasites, though this is likely to be resolved in any sequels taking place after Metroid Fusion.Through I flipped it to "presumably" since her unremovable bonded-to-her-body pusdo-suit has talons and she does directly absorb the parasites.

[Traab]

Im sorry mato but the rules are very clear. As death battle has shown us, samus can only use her basic armor and blaster as those are the weapons she is shown using in the box art most often. Link getting everything is still allowed however. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, im going to lean in the direction of samus. I think she has better weaponry armor and mobility in general, though its hard to judge for sure as how do you directly compare magic to science across different universes? Maybe do a quick search for maximum feats? "Oh here we see link lifting a boulder roughly 4x his size over his head then throwing it. That implies a strength of x." That sort of thing.

[Rakaydos]

There are many links, but there is only one samus.

Each link can only reasonably be expected to have his own equipment. Wolf-link from twilight princess isnt going to be flying around on a Windwaker leaf, after all. At the very best, he should be limited to a single TIMELINE's worth of abilities.

Samus has... less of a problem in that regard, but still sells off most of her upgrades (probably to museums) between games. At "Full power", she could concevable raid her pawn shop to get them all back, minus short term powerups like the Phazon Suit (stolen by Metroid prime to become Dark Samus), and supermetroid's hyperbeam.

[Prime32]

Without the restriction on potions, Link could drink Chateau Romani for infinite MP, then turn invincible and can spam the Bombos/Quake/Ether medallions until Samus is dead.

Otherwise... both combatants are acrobatic and have grappling-hook-like weapons, plus boots that increase their jump height and give them a dash attack. However, Samus also has infinite midair jumps, can use the energy of her dash to launch herself in any direction, and can disintegrate enemies that touch her while doing either. So overall, the mobility advantage goes to Samus (unless they're underwater and Link has the Zora mask, in which case he probably has a slight edge).

Samus has homing attacks, AoE attacks and the ability to see and shoot through walls, which are a major threat to someone like Link who relies more on evasion than durability. On the other hand, Link's Mirror Shield can defend against many of her weapons.

Both combatants have freezing weapons that can be followed up by smashing the frozen target. Link can reflect the Ice Beam back at Samus, but not Ice Missiles or Diffusion Missiles. Samus doesn't have much defense against freezing, unless she's in Morph Ball mode in which case she can use bombs to break free.

Both combatants are capable of disarming enemies of their weapons, but while Link has lost his sword on multiple occasions, Samus's weapons cannot be removed from her without surgery (they can be disabled by inflicting critical damage or draining her energy, but Link doesn't have any draining powers that I'm aware of).

Finally, since all weapons are available, that means Samus has access to both the Hyper Beam (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Hyper_Beam_(Super_Metroid)) and Omega Cannon (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Omega_Cannon)... and can combine them together. I don't think Link's shields are going to do much good there. His closest answer to that is the Light Arrows, but they're an anti-evil weapon and Samus isn't evil.


Does Link get his abilities from Hyrule Warriors and does Samus get her abilities from Samus and Joey? Both are questionably canon but portray the characters as significantly more powerful than usual.

[Kyberwulf]

What is up with all these one sided fights lately. I would say a better matchup would be, Mega Man X vs. Samus.

[Mato]

Seriously though, im going to lean in the direction of samus. I think she has better weaponry armor and mobility in general, though its hard to judge for sure as how do you directly compare magic to science across different universes?idk, that's what I'm asking you :smalltongue:

Also I think Link is a clear winner in the strength area. Samus needs the Power Grip ability to grab ledges while wearing her suit which is suggestive her jumping is already augmented rather than a feat of her strength in weighted gear. Link on the other hand can backflip and hang off ledges in his weighted gear and would have either the lv2 Power Bracelet (LA) or Golden Gauntlets (OoT) as an augment on top of that.

But we don't know if Samus can drain things with her claws because she doesn't really punch or lift anything. She's more of a nuka-a-pew-pew-pew gunner that doesn't need physical prowess outside of mobility.

[Forum Explorer]

Well I don't think Link can actually harm Samus with his basic weaponry.

It'll take Bombs (and the many variants on them), War God's Mask, and Fire and Ice Arrows. Also the various magic. Samus can likely block the arrows by changing suit types, and likely some of the magic as well. Link can use the Hurricane Boomerang to push Samus around, and use the Gigaton Hammer in close range.

But overall, I think it's Samus who'll win most of the time. Her range is a lot better, she's still pretty mobile, and her stronger shots need to only hit Link once to finish him off. Though he has a bunch of regen and invinicbility techniques to block them if there is too much windup. And Link's mobility is insane. He can teleport, use multiple hookshots, transform into various animals, run on air, and attack from range or melee without problem.

So I see an epic battle of attrition where Link keeps using his tricks and defenses with his few weapons that can hurt her to whittle Samus down. But eventually they'll run out, and Samus has tricks of her own. And she only needs to get lucky once in order to win.

[Rakaydos]

Well I don't think Link can actually harm Samus with his basic weaponry.

But overall, I think it's Samus who'll win most of the time. Her range is a lot better, she's still pretty mobile, and her stronger shots need to only hit Link once to finish him off.

I dont buy this.
Samus takes damage can be knocked off a ledge if an alien porcupine (zoomer, I believe?) walks into her, and the porcupine is undamaged by the encounter. It takes several shots from her basic cannon to kill a giant bee, which attack in numbers.

I believe Samus has an advantage, but she isnt in auto-win territory just because she has tech.

[Sermil]

Well, if Link has ALL the items he's ever owned, then he has the complete Triforce (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triforce#Assembled_Triforce). Which is basically a ring of unlimited wishes. So he can just wish Samus out of existence...

There's a reason all the games end as soon as he gets the complete Triforce.

[Kyberwulf]

Again, as someone pointed out, which Link. There are so many of them, and you are trying to shove all of them into one Link to give him a shot. Also, we don't know how Link would fair against Samus' enemies. Now, she also has the Hyper Beam to do damage, not to mention if Link gets hit with a Ice beam, he is gonna be frozen. Shes got bombs and power bombs. Missles, she's got those too. Homing missiles, Super missles.

You want to talk about weak enemies. Link can start taking less damage...by wearing a different colored shirt. I think the best Armor he gets is chain.... so.. yeah. As for most of his gear. I don't seem to recall his Bracelets or Gauntlets to actually help him deal damage. If you need something thrown out of the way, he is your man.,.. er... elf... thing .. child... um. yeah.

[Mato]

Again, as someone pointed out, which Link. There are so many of them, and you are trying to shove all of them into one Link to give him a shot.Actually I'm rolling them both together. Samus always starts her games with none of the gear from the previous ones. The Prime series attempts to lampshade this by starting with some of the basic equipment and having that stolen but I'd rather see a Link/Samus with items than without and not worry about which ones someone thinks they should have.


You want to talk about weak enemies. Link can start taking less damage...by wearing a different colored shirt.Yep, pretty much. In most games he reduces damage to 1/4, same as Samus.

Several people in this thread think twenty energy tanks is more than twenty hearts through. I probably would have gone the other way, in heated environments Samus in a space-ready environmental suit dies faster than Link does. Acid/tainted pools also deplete energy tanks faster than hearts too. I suppose this probably stems from Echo's vs mode where a power beam shot deals 1 damage so "energy tanks" must be extremely powerful (opposed to paying attention to how the power beam deals 1/20th it's normal damage to make vs mode more playable).

[Kyberwulf]

Samus' Armor actually changes materials. Also, she get's every thing from every game, because she is the same Samus from all of them. Link on the other hand is what, 5 different Links, from different times, and Different Time LINES.

[khadgar567]

What is up with all these one sided fights lately. I would say a better matchup would be, Mega Man X vs. Samus.
agreed with you. match goes to samus with out any effort but just to balance the match lets say both fighters are in pathfinder universe with starfinder material back ported

we have samus who basicly wearing power armor with at least three modes( ball, jetpack and regular) has weapon basicly teched up eldricth blast.
on other corner we have vanilla figther link with good optimized umd checks

every angle i look samus has good vhance to win before peach serve a cup of tea

[Lord Raziere]

Hm.

Ok, lets do this scenario:

Samus shows up with all her equipment and gear. Hyrule is afraid of the suddenly new high tech metal monster going around shooting stuff and call upon their Link to defeat her. Link, seeing that Hyrule is in danger, heroically goes and finds a new artifact for this adventure as he always does: The One Sword.

Basically, think of the Four Sword, but in reverse. Instead of creating multiple versions of him, all versions of Link across all times, timelines, reincarnations, worlds, so on, all of them fuse into a single Link and the swords magic brings along all their equipment and powers as well. He goes to fight Samus with this new strength and.....

Well it turns out that having all versions of a single person being stuffed into one body has problems. All the Links inside the One Link disagree on the course of action to take, his mind is overloaded from trying to reconcile and remember all versions of his quest throughout time, and its just really mentally messed up there. So he slowly starts going insane. He tries to use the Four Sword, but since there are more than Four Links across all of time and space, all four new Links are experiencing problems because they have one fourth of all Links that ever existed inside them vying for dominance. And of course, So it becomes four link-bodies hosting far more link-minds all trying to coordinate with each other.

When they get to Samus, she only sees four uncoordinated madmen in different colors trying to kill her, so like the ruthless bounty hunter she is, she utterly destroys them one by one with her single clear tactical mind while all the different Links, not used to working together or with ANYONE much or having to discuss plans, get destroyed because they never thought that the fusion could work against them.

the end.

[KillingAScarab]

One thing which wasn't set in the opening post was location. Metroid and The Legend of Zelda have both flirted with the Metal Gear Solid formula, but of those attempts there is one location which gives a possible advantage to Link: the Temple of the Ocean King (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Temple_of_the_Ocean_King). If Link can use the Phantom Hourglass and Samus cannot, this becomes an area where Samus' superior mobility is mitigated by her much more limited time within it. One might think she can simply run through, but the speed booster stops charging when she takes damage and even the devious shinespark puzzles from Metroid: Zero Mission didn't involve turning corners.

[golentan]

One thing which wasn't set in the opening post was location. Metroid and The Legend of Zelda have both flirted with the Metal Gear Solid formula, but of those attempts there is one location which gives a possible advantage to Link: the Temple of the Ocean King (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Temple_of_the_Ocean_King). If Link can use the Phantom Hourglass and Samus cannot, this becomes an area where Samus' superior mobility is mitigated by her much more limited time within it. One might think she can simply run through, but the speed booster stops charging when she takes damage and even the devious shinespark puzzles from Metroid: Zero Mission didn't involve turning corners.

Conversely, if it's set in space Samus just has to open the airlock and trust in her suit's built in air supply and the realities of biology to do all her work for her.

The playing field should be comparatively level.

[KillingAScarab]

Conversely, if it's set in space Samus just has to open the airlock and trust in her suit's built in air supply and the realities of biology to do all her work for her.

The playing field should be comparatively level.Only the opening to Metroid Prime 3 featured people actually falling out of a habitable area into outer space, and I don't think there were too many other settings where that may have been possible. The opening to Metroid Prime and a perhaps a spoilery area of Metroid Fusion are all that come to mind, for me. ETA: Oh, right, I forgot about The Plot Recycler (http://www.metroid-database.com/mom/), which also had stuff getting sent into outer space.

That said, Samus has to use her arm cannon most of the time to even just open a common door. Link is going to have to take whatever routes civilians use to get around in Metroid settings.

[Frozen_Feet]

Let's start with one area where various Links are clearly superior to Samus: physical strength.

Ocarina of Time Link with gold gauntlets can lift and fling stone pylons about 1m x 1m x 8m in size (conservative estimate). If we presume them to be granite, that's ~25,000 kg. Wind Waker Link with a power bracelet can lift those huge stone heads, which are a couple of cubic meters big too, so I'd say ~5000 kg at least. Twilight Princess Link, in wolf form, can outwrestle a boar monster the size of an elephant, probably somewhere from 3000 to 7000 kg in weight.

Samus is never shown lifting such dramatic weight anywhere.

Not that it's likely to matter all that much, because Samus is durable enought to survive falling from pretty dramatic heights and being stepped on by giant monsters which must weigh comparable amounts. But if the question is "can Link hurt Samus with a sword swing?", then the answer is: probably, yes.

Now, can Samus hurt Link? Conveniently enough, both characters utilize explosives as parts of their armory. If you take the games at face value, Samus Aran's missiles have about same explosive power as Link's bomb, and Link can be knocked around and hurt by his own bombs. (Samus, curiously, cannot, but she's often seen taking damage from comparable attacks.)

Both characters get pretty ridiculously durable at full health and defensive power-ups. Both can more or less bathe in lava and take multiple shots from a cannon. (Or be shot out of a cannon.)

Overall, one-on-one, I think it could go either way. Super Smash Bros. is surreal as ****, but in the case of this particular match-up, I think it actually presents the relative abilities of the characters fairly well.

However, Samus is clearly a greater scope character, as she owns a FTL-capable ship and even without it, can more or less fly under her own power with full suit power-ups. So should she ever want to, she can just GTFO and leave Link biting dust.

[Kato]

Both characters get pretty ridiculously durable at full health and defensive power-ups. Both can more or less bathe in lava and take multiple shots from a cannon. (Or be shot out of a cannon.)


Correct me if I'm wrong but when does Link show such levels of defense? Okay, he can fall in infinite pits or lava and then respawn but respawning is... weird. But be outright immune to it? (sidenote: I really need to play the newer Zelda games, so...)

[Mato]

Correct me if I'm wrong but when does Link show such levels of defense?Pretty much every single game. His hookshot should break his arm every time he fires it. He's been fired out of a canon in TP and a catapult in WW too. WW also has a scene when you gather the three gems to summon an enormous tower Link is comically thrown from a nearby island against it's wall before falling hundreds of feet into the sea. Generally most of the dungeon bosses are oversized beasts that probably have some ridiculous real world numbers behind them to actually function.

And minor correction to Frozen_Feet's list, Link can actually block bombs using his shield. It's a key part of bomb long jumping, using the floating glitch, and it's what makes the bomb mask so invaluable. Which, also means Link can illogically block a bomb attached to his face with a shield.

You can also dig up a ton of OP feats for Link if you actually look. His ice arrows can freeze a volcano, silver arrows are coded to kill in one hit, Giant Link can punch massive pillars of stone to break them, in Phantom Tracks it's shown Link's typical "magic hammer" is swung with enough force to throw Link 3~4 times his height into the air and several spaces over and the Megaton version's jab is power enough to shatter rocks so dense even bombs can't break them.

If you think about it, I had to preemptively ban a dozen forms of invincibility to even start this thread and that really has nothing to do with Samus. Hypermode is powerful but MM's Link doesn't even need to reach for invincibility when he can just don the Stone Mask and chill out while she kills her self. If you think this fight is one sided, you clearly have no idea of Hyrule's world.

Actually, the same could be said for Samus. Her Screw Attack makes her impervious to several attacks, chews through stone, and is a one hit kill to all non-bosses because, for example it's coded to deal one hundred and fifty times the damage of her power beam per frame in Super Metroid. But everyone is like "she has a ship!" as if that is her best weapon. :smallsigh:

[khadgar567]

Pretty much every single game. His hookshot should break his arm every time he fires it. He's been fired out of a canon in TP and a catapult in WW too. WW also has a scene when you gather the three gems to summon an enormous tower Link is comically thrown from a nearby island against it's wall before falling hundreds of feet into the sea. Generally most of the dungeon bosses are oversized beasts that probably have some ridiculous real world numbers behind them to actually function.

And minor correction to Frozen_Feet's list, Link can actually block bombs using his shield. It's a key part of bomb long jumping, using the floating glitch, and it's what makes the bomb mask so invaluable. Which, also means Link can illogically block a bomb attached to his face with a shield.

You can also dig up a ton of OP feats for Link if you actually look. His ice arrows can freeze a volcano, silver arrows are coded to kill in one hit, Giant Link can punch massive pillars of stone to break them, in Phantom Tracks it's shown Link's typical "magic hammer" is swung with enough force to throw Link 3~4 times his height into the air and several spaces over and the Megaton version's jab is power enough to shatter rocks so dense even bombs can't break them.

If you think about it, I had to preemptively ban a dozen forms of invincibility to even start this thread and that really has nothing to do with Samus. Hypermode is powerful but MM's Link doesn't even need to reach for invincibility when he can just don the Stone Mask and chill out while she kills her self. If you think this fight is one sided, you clearly have no idea of Hyrule's world.

Actually, the same could be said for Samus. Her Screw Attack makes her impervious to several attacks, chews through stone, and is a one hit kill to all non-bosses because, for example it's coded to deal one hundred and fifty times the damage of her power beam per frame in Super Metroid. But everyone is like "she has a ship!" as if that is her best weapon. :smallsigh:
unless he barrows princess zeldas triforce of magic i think its hard to shoot one arrow and stop erupting volcano i mean in pathfinder the feat it self ballsy enough that you can take star stone test and has good chance end up eceeding .

[Forum Explorer]

unless he barrows princess zeldas triforce of magic i think its hard to shoot one arrow and stop erupting volcano i mean in pathfinder the feat it self ballsy enough that you can take star stone test and has good chance end up eceeding .

Zelda's Triforce is Wisdom, not magic. Yes, there is a difference. Honestly, Link does use a fair bit of magic in his games, I don't know why people think he's a pure fighter type. It's not even only limited to using items. Din's Fire is a straight up fireball centered on himself and Faroe's Wind is teleporting.

Considering he always seems to have some sort of musical instrument in recent games, he's more like some weird Bard. Or a 5th edition Eldritch Knight.

[Kyberwulf]

Link's ability to lift things isn't .. that impressive. Because that's all it seems to do. Let's him lift things. It's not everything either. Just certain objects. It takes him time to lift things too. I am sure if he waddles up to Samus, and grabs her by the.... um.. yeah and tries to lift her to throw her. She would be shooting him the whole time. Not to mention that she would probably be using the Hyper beam.

[KillingAScarab]

Link's ability to lift things isn't .. that impressive. Because that's all it seems to do. Let's him lift things. It's not everything either. Just certain objects. It takes him time to lift things too. I am sure if he waddles up to Samus, and grabs her by the.... um.. yeah and tries to lift her to throw her. She would be shooting him the whole time. Not to mention that she would probably be using the Hyper beam.I also believe that the magic of the power bracelet/silver gauntlets/golden gauntlets isn't applicable to combat until Link becomes a Hulking Hurler or catches Samus in morph ball mode. In the later case, we're looking at a Chaos Dunk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkley,_Shut_Up_and_Jam:_Gaiden).

[Frozen_Feet]

Correct me if I'm wrong but when does Link show such levels of defense? Okay, he can fall in infinite pits or lava and then respawn but respawning is... weird. But be outright immune to it? (sidenote: I really need to play the newer Zelda games, so...)
I didn't say "outright immune", I said "take a bath in". Both Link and Samus typically continue to take damage from lava baths, but at max health it can take minutes for them to reach critical status.

But just to recap various fire-related abuse Link survives in various games:

Ocarina of Time, Oracle of Ages & Seasons: surviving falling volcanic debris.

Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker: being able to stay several minutes inside an active volcano. (In OoT, Goron Tunic makes the potential stay unlimited)

Oracle of Seasons: being able to stay in what's essentially HELL... sorry, Subrosia, for extended periods. And I think there's a ring which nullifies damage from lava, even if it still causes respawning. And another ring to turn Link to a Subrosian, who do bathe in lava for fun.

Majora's Mask: Goron!Link can stomp on lava and fire all he likes without issue.

Ocarina of Time & several other games: being set in fire.

And then there are roughly two dozen different enemies who spew fireballs and rays of flame on Link and he can, on his best, take dozens of these in the face before keeling over.

---

Really, now that I remember, if you're set on using some hypothetical max-power Link instead of any established one... just give Giant's Mask to one of the adult Links with their full equipment kit up to scale.

Seriously, Giant Young Link is huge. Those boulders he can pick up and throw like basketballs are, what, as big as Samus Aran's gunship? Twinmold's certainly up there with biggest Metroid bosses in size. Possibly bigger. Giant Young Link can pick it up by the tail and swing it like a flail. Giant Adult Link would be, what, taller by half?

We're talking about a Link with a shield big enough for Samus and (Meta-)Ridley do combat on.

A Link with a sword multiple times longer than Aran's gunship.

A Link so big he could pick Aran's ship up like a toy car.

A Link so strong he could pick up Ganon's tower and use it as a bludgeon.

In short, a Link so big he could do your mom. Almost.

If you think that would't be bad enough to give Samus a pause, I don't know what to say. That said, I could see Samus squeezing out a victory. It'd hardly be the first humongous end boss she's dealt with. But it's good to remember Samus does not win those by being strictly physically superior. She wins by engaging in ridiculous mid-air gymnastics to avoid certain death, scans the enemy for the weakpoint and then spams hot plasma on that weakpoint untill the enemy is burned to cinders. Even at max power, Samus is still at clear risk of death from most opponents of such size

[Forum Explorer]

Wasn't the Giant Mask limited to one specific room though?

[georgie_leech]

Is Hyrule Warriors considered canon?

[Frozen_Feet]

Yes. If that's what you're gonna get hung up on, just imagine that's where the battle takes place. It's hardly out-of-character for Samus to stumble in isolated rooms with no escape before the big monster is dead. :smalltongue:

[Forum Explorer]

Yes. If that's what you're gonna get hung up on, just imagine that's where the battle takes place. It's hardly out-of-character for Samus to stumble in isolated rooms with no escape before the big monster is dead. :smalltongue:

Well, it's hardly neutral territory, so it's giving a big advantage to Link.

For a different hilarious combo, Link can use the 4 sword, and then each activates a different Mask. War God for a beam sword and insane damage, Goron for some serious defense and strength while rolling around in a spiky ball of death, Deku for mobility and stunning shots, and Zora to play on the guitar. (Or just stay a Link for bombs, magic arrows, spells, hookshots, and other gadgets. But then who'll play something appropriately metal enough?)

[KillingAScarab]

Hm. We're missing something here.
Well, it's hardly neutral territory, so it's giving a big advantage to Link.
*rimshot*

That's better.


But then who'll play something appropriately metal enough?)Japas (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Japas)!

The Happy Mask Salesman would play "You Will Not Survive (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtnZpJNC2UU)."

https://68.media.tumblr.com/10c24b0503c2a1b1abd6f2717cbd3ff6/tumblr_ofdu6e0jD41s9fn3ko1_500.gif

[Maryring]

The fight will end when both realise that the other's actually a decent guy, and then they'll have the most awkward tea party of all times where neither one says anything.

[Mato]

Is Hyrule Warriors considered canon?Yes.
But is it in continuity? No. It takes part in a "separate dimension" that crosses the timelines through Cia's gates.

[Chives]

What is up with all these one sided fights lately. I would say a better matchup would be, Mega Man X vs. Samus.

Quick Man (and the quick man weapon equip) is confirmed FTL in the Mega Man Extreme Manga. I don't think Samus can match it.

[khadgar567]

Zelda's Triforce is Wisdom, not magic. Yes, there is a difference. Honestly, Link does use a fair bit of magic in his games, I don't know why people think he's a pure fighter type. It's not even only limited to using items. Din's Fire is a straight up fireball centered on himself and Faroe's Wind is teleporting.

Considering he always seems to have some sort of musical instrument in recent games, he's more like some weird Bard. Or a 5th edition Eldritch Knight.ı think he has no ranks in perform
path finder magus is more like him unless he forced to use ocarina or whistle weed

Yes.
But is it in continuity? No. It takes part in a "separate dimension" that crosses the timelines through Cia's gates.
if hyrule warriors is on table link can use strenth gauntlets to attack.

[Mato]

if hyrule warriors is on table link can use strenth gauntlets to attack.I'm not sure if that's a thing.

I know the weapons are named after the gauntlets, but Link doesn't need the gauntlets to wield the ball and chain and technically HW's gauntlets still don't deal any more damage than any of the counterparts.

What changes in depiction is instead of slowly walking with it he's able to run with it in one hand. Surplexing a pillar of obsidian is just what we'd attempt to do even if the gauntlets illogically only increased lifting power instead of overall strength.

[georgie_leech]

I'm not sure if that's a thing.

I know the weapons are named after the gauntlets, but Link doesn't need the gauntlets to wield the ball and chain and technically HW's gauntlets still don't deal any more damage than any of the counterparts.

What changes in depiction is instead of slowly walking with it he's able to run with it in one hand. Surplexing a pillar of obsidian is just what we'd attempt to do even if the gauntlets illogically only increased lifting power instead of overall strength.

I would be cautious about taking in game damage values as being representative of physics, rather than a game balance thing. After all, Ganon in OoT can destroy stone blocks with a single swing of his sword, and if "damage" is a measurable quantity, then so can 8 Deku Baba's hitting the same block at the same time.

[Red Fel]

Alright. Here's how I see it. If you dive too deeply into various games and powerups, you could potentially get to absurd lengths. Link can turn into basically a war god, Samus could basically drop her spacecraft on him. So let's keep it as baseline as possible - let's limit it to powerups that have been consistent across all or multiple games.

So, Link would have his sword. Whether it's the Master Sword would be mostly irrelevant, because the Sword of Evil's Bane reflects evil magic, not plasma cannon blasts. He would have a shield for a certain degree of defense. He would have a stunning boomerang, bow and arrows for ranged combat (Silver Arrows are irrelevant for the same reason the Master Sword is), bombs for localized explosions. He would have the Power Glove for enhanced lifting strength, and Pegasus Boots and Zora's Flippers have been pretty consistent as well, so let's give him those. And Hookshot has been with us for awhile, fine. Spin Attack, of course, has been with us since SNES.

Samus would have her Power Suit. Since the Varia Suit is a fairly consistent one, I'd give her that. She'd have her Arm Cannon, the specifics being mostly irrelevant. Ice Beam is pretty consistent, so let's give her that, and Grapple Beam has been around since SNES, if memory serves. Missiles as well, but not Homing Missiles - we didn't get those until Prime, if I remember correctly. And let's give her Morph Ball and Power Bombs, obviously. And lastly, Screw Attack.

Okay. So let's review. Both have ranged options. Link, however, has superior melee options - the sword and shield combo is functional, and the spin attack is brutal. And with the Pegasus Boots, he can close to melee quickly, dealing damage in the process. Samus' primary melee ability - pretty much her only one, actually - is the Spin Attack. And while her agility is notably superior, letting her get out of melee in a pinch, it's too easy for Link to close again. About the only trick she has to maintain distance is her Ice Beam - freezing Link would definitely give her breathing room. But that's a case of "fool me once, shame on you;" if she can't finish Link quickly while he's frozen, he probably won't give her a second chance with that trick. And I think Link has been stunned/frozen by enemies in the past; it only lasts a few seconds.

Now, Samus' Power Bombs are much, much more powerful than Link's; her bombs can clear a screen, while his only damage a few spaces. And Samus is far too mobile to be caught in Link's tiny explosions. So if she could get into Morph Ball mode, he could be in some trouble. But even then, Morph Ball has limited offensive and defensive abilities. Further, there's the problem of size. Consider this aspect of the Hookshot - when used by Link against large objects, it pulls Link to them. When used against enemies, it stuns or damages them. But when used against small objects, it pulls them to Link. Samus may constitute an enemy, but the Morph Ball is more like a small object - which might work in Link's favor, letting him pull her into range before she can drop a Power Bomb.

Lastly, there's one power-up I left off of the list - Fairy in a Bottle. Link gets free revives; Samus does not. (We're not counting the big "Game Over! Continue?" dialogue.) Even if we only limit Link to one, that's a huge advantage over Samus.

Now, we could give Samus more of her specialized beams and missiles. That really wouldn't influence the outcome, however. Samus' combat style (outside of Smash Bros.) is ideally suited to evasive firing from range. Link's, by contrast, is an in-your-face combat style that precludes getting to a safe distance and sniping from afar. For those reasons, I'd give the match to Link.

[Devonix]

I'm sorry but Samus tanks orbital lasers and high calibur automatic weapons in her base armor without even suffering a bit of damage. She's fast enough to outrun speeding spaceships by simply running. And strong enough physically to manandle creatures dwarfing link in size with her bare hands. I really don't see how Link's even going to be able to scratch her.

[Mato]

I really don't see how Link's even going to be able to scratch her.It's because Red Fel went the route of limiting which powerups each one gets. And one of the things she is missing is the speed booster which is an integral key to her speed and by extension her ability to flank and maintain a level of distance between her and her target if the area is open enough to permit using it.

But she does take damage from machine guns and such, it's just cut scenes don't deplete your in-game HP as part of a game mechanic.

[khadgar567]

It's because Red Fel went the route of limiting which powerups each one gets. And one of the things she is missing is the speed booster which is an integral key to her speed and by extension her ability to flank and maintain a level of distance between her and her target if the area is open enough to permit using it.

But she does take damage from machine guns and such, it's just cut scenes don't deplete your in-game HP as part of a game mechanic.
funny thing is if samus can thank 38 to 51 cm penetrating regular m16 ammo. I think she can tank medieval arrow with base power armor no problem hell she might say it tickes.

[georgie_leech]

It's because Red Fel went the route of limiting which powerups each one gets. And one of the things she is missing is the speed booster which is an integral key to her speed and by extension her ability to flank and maintain a level of distance between her and her target if the area is open enough to permit using it.

But she does take damage from machine guns and such, it's just cut scenes don't deplete your in-game HP as part of a game mechanic.

Plus, again, can killed by gently bumping into spiky things. Let's just say the game treats the impregnability of her armor inconsistently and move on.

[Red Fel]

It's because Red Fel went the route of limiting which powerups each one gets. And one of the things she is missing is the speed booster which is an integral key to her speed and by extension her ability to flank and maintain a level of distance between her and her target if the area is open enough to permit using it.

Actually, this is a very fair point. I'd forgotten about Speed Booster, which has been around since SNES, and I think is a valid option for her arsenal. It would definitely allow her to break to a safe distance for sniping. Further, use of Speed Booster renders Samus invulnerable.

The question is, is it valid for short-range use? I'll be honest, I only remember using it to smash through as much of a screen as possible to get from one side to the other. Given her limited melee options, Samus would be using it to get out of close range, not into it, so the question is whether it actually functions as an option for strategic withdrawal, or if it's really only useful to get right out of Dodge.

If it's usable for short-range bursts, then the contest becomes one of establishing combat distance - can she pull back and shoot, or will he pull close and strike? If, however, it's only usable for long distances, then it's mostly useless to her - pulling three screens away may give her time to regroup, but it doesn't give her a clean shot. Link's dash, by contrast, does precisely what it needs to - close to combat range and let him take swing.


Plus, again, can killed by gently bumping into spiky things. Let's just say the game treats the impregnability of her armor inconsistently and move on.

Yeah, let's just avoid the health abstraction for either one, altogether. I mean, Link has a ton of hearts, and even things that would instantly take out someone else (e.g. falling into a bottomless pit) would only ping him a little.

[theNater]

And with the Pegasus Boots, he can close to melee quickly, dealing damage in the process.
The Pegasus Boots have a wind-up time, during which Link is stationary. He might catch her with it once, but if she opens the range again she'll be able to see it coming and jump out of the way after that.


Samus may constitute an enemy, but the Morph Ball is more like a small object - which might work in Link's favor, letting him pull her into range before she can drop a Power Bomb.
The Morph Ball is still fully mobile and intelligent, so I'm hesitant to classify it as an object. Even if we do, Samus is still inside, and because she's bigger than Link, so is it. And "large object" is bad for him; she drops a bomb when she sees him fire, it goes off when he arrives, hurting him but not her.


Actually, this is a very fair point. I'd forgotten about Speed Booster, which has been around since SNES, and I think is a valid option for her arsenal. It would definitely allow her to break to a safe distance for sniping. Further, use of Speed Booster renders Samus invulnerable.

The question is, is it valid for short-range use? I'll be honest, I only remember using it to smash through as much of a screen as possible to get from one side to the other. Given her limited melee options, Samus would be using it to get out of close range, not into it, so the question is whether it actually functions as an option for strategic withdrawal, or if it's really only useful to get right out of Dodge.

If it's usable for short-range bursts, then the contest becomes one of establishing combat distance - can she pull back and shoot, or will he pull close and strike? If, however, it's only usable for long distances, then it's mostly useless to her - pulling three screens away may give her time to regroup, but it doesn't give her a clean shot. Link's dash, by contrast, does precisely what it needs to - close to combat range and let him take swing.
I think she can stop running when she wants, but I can't confirm that. It is worth noting, however, that she can move while charging her Speed Booster(unlike him).

[Red Fel]

The Pegasus Boots have a wind-up time, during which Link is stationary. He might catch her with it once, but if she opens the range again she'll be able to see it coming and jump out of the way after that.

*SNIP*

I think she can stop running when she wants, but I can't confirm that. It is worth noting, however, that she can move while charging her Speed Booster(unlike him).

The thing is, he doesn't have to hit her with the Pegasus Boots. That's simply a nice bonus if he does. The real function is that they allow him to close distance quickly.

Yes, charge-up time is problematic - it means she can line up a shot or move to a more strategic position. But she would have to do it fast, and would only have one chance, after which he'd be back in melee, which I think we can agree favors Link.

Further, Link has multiple weapons that can stun, including boomerang and hookshot. He could easily employ one of those to stun her, charge the boots while she's down, and rob her of that window of opportunity.


The Morph Ball is still fully mobile and intelligent, so I'm hesitant to classify it as an object. Even if we do, Samus is still inside, and because she's bigger than Link, so is it. And "large object" is bad for him; she drops a bomb when she sees him fire, it goes off when he arrives, hurting him but not her.

That's fair; it may not be an object. But even so, Power Gloves mean that Link can lift it. I will also acknowledge that her bombs will hurt him, leaving her unscathed; however, since he isn't a standard one-hit enemy, her bombs are unlikely to kill him outright, and she has them in limited supply. Assuming she doesn't just go straight into Morph Ball and repeatedly bomb him into submission - a possible strategy, though not the most functional one - it's unlikely she'll get multiple opportunities to pull that trick.

[Traab]

The pegasus boots are straight line charge until he hits something right? I seem to recall that in one of the older games but its been so damn long I cant be sure if im thinking of a different object. If that IS the case though, oh man are they not a big deal for a mobile samus in a 3d world. Take a step to the left and he just charged to the opposite side of the arena with no way to stop early or change direction. If not then nm, my knowledge of zelda games more or less stops around the days of super nintendo and Link to the Past.

[Maryring]

Actually, Samus's smaller bombs are unlimited in supply. It's her Power Bomb that is limited. And for good reason. It's essentially a Mini-nuke that will clear the screen.

Regarding the boots. Link is immobile while they charge. Trying to move cancels the build up. He can alter trajectory slightly as he runs, but he can't change direction. (Essentially, attempting to turn will just have you move slightly in that direction while keeping the same facing as before). He can stop running, but if he jumps he maintains momentum. I think Roc's Cape allows him to airbrake though.

Also, I'd say that the biggest problem with hookshoting Samus in morphball mode is that she can just release a Power Bomb as she gets close. Link may be strong, but I really don't see him surviving a Power Bomb

[Dienekes]

Eh. While I think Samus would win, let's not forget that Link can just casually break physics.

For example any energy ball Samus throws at him (which is a lot of her attacks) he can deflect. With an empty bottle. Links crazy.

[Devonix]

Gameplay mechanics can't or at least shouldn't be used in a versus battle. When Link's reflecting spellbolts with the net, or bottle, it's assumed that he's using the master sword to do so. And that it's Magical barrier and deflecting properties are being used. The same way that Him only being able to sprint in a straight line is a gameplay mechanic because it's a top down 2d game where battles and platforming have to be done in straight lines.

That said I fail to see how Link's going to penetrate Samus's armor with his weaponry It's got a far far lower destructive yield than other things Samus has been able to simply stand still and have bounce off of her.

[Kyberwulf]

Samus is far to mobile for link. His Pegasus Boots require him to be motionless, and the he runs, not at any great speed mind you. He pretty much runs, until he hits something. Samus can basically fly with the Screw attack. Not to mention she does a ton of damage when she hit something with it, and it doesn't even break her form when she does. Links wind up time is hardly instantaneously. Even the first time he runs at her, she could run too or jump. Her speed boost is far easier to activate. All she has to do, is start running, then she just starts boosting. Not on that she can stop on a dime, use the channeled energy and just jump AT link, at a more then fairly reasonable speed, and do a ton of damage. Not to mention Samus jump is about as far as Link's is when he has the Jump spell cast on him.

The thing about most of Link's arsenal, is that it gets more ineffective as the level of his monsters go up. Until at some point they become immune. Samus usually doesn't have that problem. So I would say Samus would rank as one of those, and most of Link's Cc abilities would just not work. Also, link isn't fast enough to dodge an endless stream of blaster shots. He just isn't that mobile. He would eventually get hit with one of the many forms of Blaster shots Samus has in her gun.

The hookshot only pulls you close to an enemy if it is a special type, usually being HUGE or having some kind of impenetrable armor. Which seems to be a general consensus Samus doesn't have.So at most it would maybe damage her. Link's boomerangs wouldn't hit hard enough to kill, as most monsters beyond a certain point don't take damage, and then don't even get stun by them. Link's Gloves and stuff only seem to let him lift objects. Specific Objects. I don't think he use them to lift any enemies that aren't specific to them. I assume that means you have to channel some type of energy into them. The only thing that doesn't get frozen by Samus' Ice Beam are special monsters and bosses. Then freeze is way more then a couple seconds, almost 20 I think. And in that time you are frozen Samus can instantly switch to a different blaster type kill Link that way. Switch to missiles, or Super missiles, which you left out and kill Link that way. Normal bombs, Link's dead. Superbombs, Link's dead.

Damage wise, I don't think it scales equally across games. First, let's consider Link's Arsenal. I don't he has any viable damage sources against Samus, that isn't rendered moot. except his Bow and Arrows, which he has a very limited supply. His sword he need to get to close to use, and it's ranged attack is useless once he gets hit. Samus' has a never ending arsenal of ranged, and her power bombs. Which do so much and she can just spam.

Now, to actual damage. Which I think is the mitigating factor here. I think so much of it is curbed for Samus. She has far more potential to actually do environmental damage with her weapons. I.e. Firing Plasma around, that just doesn't seem to affect objects like they would in real life. Powerbombs that blow up, and do no damage to the environment. Link's arsenal just doesn't have that same level of potential damage.

This is a nonfight. This is a Warrior vs a Wizard, essentially.

My main thing about this fight though, is that the characters in it are so undefined. Mainly Link. There are what, 15 versions of link? It's been the same Samus throughout all the games.

[theNater]

...it's unlikely she'll get multiple opportunities to pull that trick.
I think this is the common element to both our arguments; these characters are used to fighting puzzle bosses, and their arsenal allows them to handle pretty much anything once they know it's coming. Each of them has an answer to just about anything, so the real question is who has the greater number of meaningful surprises to pull out-things that will let them get in a shot before their opponent works out a counter.

Link:
Sword-He's obviously carrying a sword, so she's going to know to stay out of melee as much as possible. The fact that the sword can fire lasers is worth a surprise though.
Boomerang, bow& arrow-these are ranged attacks, and Samus is quite familiar with those. Maybe she won't expect him to have a ranged attack, given the sword, and maybe she won't be ready for the boomerang to return, but maybe she will. Call it half a surprise each, for one surprise total.
Bombs-these come out of nowhere, and don't look like explosives she's familiar with. One surprise for that, and one surprise for being able to throw them.
Power Glove-I don't see a good way for him to work in a surprise with this. She's not going to let him wrestle her, and throwing heavy things is going to be a less accurate than his other ranged options. In a fair environment, there's going to be as many ways for her to explode terrain beneficially as him to lift it, so that's a wash.
Pegasus Boots-Charging is a good surprise, but with that tell, one surprise only.
Zora's Flippers-If we give him the flippers, we gotta give her the Gravity Suit(around since Zero Mission), which also lets her move underwater. Another wash.
Hookshot-targeting her, it's just another ranged attack. As a grappling hook, one surprise.

Samus
Arm cannon-projectiles come out of that tube is not going to surprise Link. The blast radius of missiles is good for a surprise, though.
Grapple beam-that's good for a surprise.
Morph ball-this is a whole new movement mode, and comes out of nowhere. Huge surprise factor.
Bombs and power bombs-Just like his, they come out of nowhere and don't look like familiar explosives. And the power bomb's radius and damage are sufficiently distinct to count as another surprise, so that's two.
Screw attack-being able to do it at all is a surprise, being able to do it repeatedly is another.
Speed boost-one surprise for the mobility, one for the optional charge attack.

So far that's 6 surprises from Link, and 9 from Samus. What did I leave out?

[Kyberwulf]

Being able to throw a bomb..what... 5 feet... is a surprise? It's not like he is lobbing them at ftl speeds. I would also also assume, that Samus would see a fuse counting down, and deduce what that means. Hardly a surprise.

Also, there goes that whole Glove thing again.

Also, I don't think the grapple beam works in combat. So I am not sure how much of a surprise that would be...

[Dienekes]

Shield gliding is certainly a surprise.

[Mato]

The pegasus boots are straight line charge until he hits something right?Not really.

The debuted in LttP which had a standstill start up and straight line requirement which was kept for MC/LbW, but LA allowed you to charge up while running and it's improved handling allowed you to run at angles too. Both Oracles also had the pegasus seed which acted more like PH's version of the boots by providing a temporary speed increase no matter which way you were trying to move, they also appear in one of the Four Sword games along side the boots as well. And in the Four Swords series you can also turn while charging via the boots.

So that's five that require you to stop to use them but only three of them limit you to an unyielding line. And four that don't require a stationary charge. The majority suggests Link should have to pause to use them but has no limitation on curves. And if you count Young Link from HW where the boots are instantaneous and allow sharp turns that would instead bring things to a tie.

Alternatively, there is also the bunny hood and the Goron mask.
Also a horse, wolf form, a train, a boat, and a loftwing that can also be considered.
And Link's ability to simply teleport from point A to point B.

Like I said, it's closer than you think.

[Devonix]

Not really.

The debuted in LttP which had a standstill start up and straight line requirement which was kept for MC/LbW, but LA allowed you to charge up while running and it's improved handling allowed you to run at angles too. Both Oracles also had the pegasus seed which acted more like PH's version of the boots by providing a temporary speed increase no matter which way you were trying to move, they also appear in one of the Four Sword games along side the boots as well. And in the Four Swords series you can also turn while charging via the boots.

So that's five that require you to stop to use them but only three of them limit you to an unyielding line. And four that don't require a stationary charge. The majority suggests Link should have to pause to use them but has no limitation on curves. And if you count Young Link from HW where the boots are instantaneous and allow sharp turns that would instead bring things to a tie.

Alternatively, there is also the bunny hood and the Goron mask.
Also a horse, wolf form, a train, a boat, and a loftwing that can also be considered.
And Link's ability to simply teleport from point A to point B.

Like I said, it's closer than you think.

Not really that close considering Samus travels at multi hypersonic to low Ftl in transit.

[Mato]

Not really that close considering Samus travels at multi hypersonic to low Ftl in transit.:smallsigh:

Yes, space ships travel really fast in space, but I don't have the crayons needed to fully explain how air resistance rips apart ships and burns up asteroids before they hit the ground. So you're just going have to take the fact that Samus's ship never goes FTL on a planet and how Samas's speed boost is less than 0.000001% the speed of light as proof that she cannot move FTL at will.

More on point, the speed booster is supersonic (343m/s) per Fusion and Zero Mission making it faster than the Pegasus boots. It has a 1 second delay in Super, 2 second delay in Fusion/Zero, and a 5 second delay in Other M giving an average delay of 2.5 seconds which is longer than the Pegasus boot's longest start up delay. Damage is mostly unknown, in Super it's 300 making it the equivalent of a super missile or ice+wave+plasma beam, but in a strict SNES crossover that assumed the previously mentioned missile=bomb then Link's golden sword deals 1/3 more damage per hit than the speed booster's shinespark. From this we can expect Samus to primarily use the speed booster to avoid Link rather than any direct combat means but she needs an open chance in order to do so and is highly terrain dependent. Not only needing open ground to use it, but also a lack of cover for Link to hide behind allowing her to use her ranged arsenal from a long distance away.

[Devonix]

:smallsigh:

Yes, space ships travel really fast in space, but I don't have the crayons needed to fully explain how air resistance rips apart ships and burns up asteroids before they hit the ground. So you're just going have to take the fact that Samus's ship never goes FTL on a planet and how Samas's speed boost is less than 0.000001% the speed of light as proof that she cannot move FTL at will.

More on point, the speed booster is supersonic (343m/s) per Fusion and Zero Mission making it faster than the Pegasus boots. It has a 1 second delay in Super, 2 second delay in Fusion/Zero, and a 5 second delay in Other M giving an average delay of 2.5 seconds which is longer than the Pegasus boot's longest start up delay. Damage is mostly unknown, in Super it's 300 making it the equivalent of a super missile or ice+wave+plasma beam, but in a strict SNES crossover that assumed the previously mentioned missile=bomb then Link's golden sword deals 1/3 more damage per hit than the speed booster's shinespark. From this we can expect Samus to primarily use the speed booster to avoid Link rather than any direct combat means but she needs an open chance in order to do so and is highly terrain dependent. Not only needing open ground to use it, but also a lack of cover for Link to hide behind allowing her to use her ranged arsenal from a long distance away.

I really don't understand the use of ingame damage instead of how much damage it would do lorewise. Link's swinging a sword around, and I don't think he's swinging it with enough force to penetrate Samus's armor. Wheras Samus can simply blast Link's face or manhandle him in straight combat since she's physically far stronger as well as more agile in close combat. And hell a Superbomb would atomize the surrounding area.

And I'm not talking about her ship. Samus has shown near lightspeed, to full on lightspeed combat on her own in the suit.

[Rakaydos]

I think this is the common element to both our arguments; these characters are used to fighting puzzle bosses, and their arsenal allows them to handle pretty much anything once they know it's coming. Each of them has an answer to just about anything, so the real question is who has the greater number of meaningful surprises to pull out-things that will let them get in a shot before their opponent works out a counter.

Link:
Sword-He's obviously carrying a sword, so she's going to know to stay out of melee as much as possible. The fact that the sword can fire lasers is worth a surprise though.
Boomerang, bow& arrow-these are ranged attacks, and Samus is quite familiar with those. Maybe she won't expect him to have a ranged attack, given the sword, and maybe she won't be ready for the boomerang to return, but maybe she will. Call it half a surprise each, for one surprise total.
Bombs-these come out of nowhere, and don't look like explosives she's familiar with. One surprise for that, and one surprise for being able to throw them.
Power Glove-I don't see a good way for him to work in a surprise with this. She's not going to let him wrestle her, and throwing heavy things is going to be a less accurate than his other ranged options. In a fair environment, there's going to be as many ways for her to explode terrain beneficially as him to lift it, so that's a wash.
Pegasus Boots-Charging is a good surprise, but with that tell, one surprise only.
Zora's Flippers-If we give him the flippers, we gotta give her the Gravity Suit(around since Zero Mission), which also lets her move underwater. Another wash.
Hookshot-targeting her, it's just another ranged attack. As a grappling hook, one surprise.

Samus
Arm cannon-projectiles come out of that tube is not going to surprise Link. The blast radius of missiles is good for a surprise, though.
Grapple beam-that's good for a surprise.
Morph ball-this is a whole new movement mode, and comes out of nowhere. Huge surprise factor.
Bombs and power bombs-Just like his, they come out of nowhere and don't look like familiar explosives. And the power bomb's radius and damage are sufficiently distinct to count as another surprise, so that's two.
Screw attack-being able to do it at all is a surprise, being able to do it repeatedly is another.
Speed boost-one surprise for the mobility, one for the optional charge attack.

So far that's 6 surprises from Link, and 9 from Samus. What did I leave out?
Boost ball is a suprise and a half for mobility and attack, but I think the morph ball is only half asuprise. Spider ball, Spacejump, ect.

[Rakaydos]

I really don't understand the use of ingame damage instead of how much damage it would do lorewise. Link's swinging a sword around, and I don't think he's swinging it with enough force to penetrate Samus's armor. Wheras Samus can simply blast Link's face or manhandle him in straight combat since she's physically far stronger as well as more agile in close combat. And hell a Superbomb would atomize the surrounding area.

And I'm not talking about her ship. Samus has shown near lightspeed, to full on lightspeed combat on her own in the suit.

The issue is that Samus's armor isnt actually armor. She's got shields that burn power to stop attacks, but if power runs out, an animal's spikes could crack her visor.

I'd argue that the "damage" samus receves is only a measure of how hard the attack was to stop, not it's normal lethality. A flaming arrowhead or hookshot tip would do less damage than a fishingpole, which would do less to samus than the Ball and Chain would.

Another thing for the Suprises list- Magnetic Iron Boots.

[theNater]

Being able to throw a bomb..what... 5 feet... is a surprise?
It's about playing with expectations. After she's seen a few bombs in action, she'll think she knows what's safe and what isn't. By putting her in a position where she thinks the smartest move is to stand just outside of bomb radius, Link can then chuck the bomb and get a hit in. It's basically the same move I expect Samus to do with the missile; once Link has become comfortable with minimal dodging to avoid her arm-cannon, fire a missile that will hit the wall behind him or ground at his feet after he's dodged enough to not get hit directly.


I would also also assume, that Samus would see a fuse counting down, and deduce what that means.
Will you also allow Link to deduce what a beeping red light means? Because he's exactly as far removed from that technology as she is from burning fuses.


Also, there goes that whole Glove thing again.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, so I'll just point out that I didn't count the glove as a viable surprise.


Also, I don't think the grapple beam works in combat. So I am not sure how much of a surprise that would be...
As far as I'm aware, Metroid doesn't make a distinction between "in combat" and "out of combat". If you mean it doesn't damage creatures, no it doesn't, but just the mobility lets her attack from an unexpected direction, and even a regular arm cannon shot will hurt Link if he doesn't properly dodge or block it. She's also occasionally used it in the prime games to rip armor plating off of foes, and Link does have a history of losing his shield. Either way, I figure she only gets one or the other before Link recognizes it as being basically a Hookshot and is ready for the other use.


And Link's ability to simply teleport from point A to point B.
That's a new one on me, when did this happen?


Link's swinging a sword around, and I don't think he's swinging it with enough force to penetrate Samus's armor.
It's not just a sword, it's a magical laser-firing sword. There's no real-world precedent for such a thing; we can't assume it's identical to a regular lump of sharpened metal.


...she's physically far stronger...
You got a source for that? I'm not aware of any really impressive feats of physical strength on her part that meaningfully compare with Link's tendency to chuck around giant boulders. Not that being better able to push, pull, and lift is meaningful here, but I think he's got the edge on that.


Another thing for the Suprises list- Magnetic Iron Boots.
Only useful on specific sorts of terrain. In a scenario where the field doesn't favor either combatant, these either don't do anything or are countered by another bit of terrain similarly benefiting the other combatant.

[Frozen_Feet]

@Devonix: I am really curious, where does Samus show FTL movements or physical strenght comparable to Link?

Because I own & have played Metroid, Metroid II: Return or Samus, Metroid Zero Mission, Metroid Fusion, Metroid Prime, Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Metroid: Other M, as well as Super Smash Bros. Melee and Brawl. I've also played through better part of Super Metroid and read the prequal manga.

And she does what you describe precisely never.

Also, advocating complete ignorance of game mechanics when the two characters are primarily videogame characters is ill-adviced. Especially when Zeldas and Metroid share plenty of genre conventions and the protagonists do similar things, allowing for easy comparisons.

[Devonix]

@Devonix: I am really curious, where does Samus show FTL movements or physical strenght comparable to Link?

Because I own & have played Metroid, Metroid II: Return or Samus, Metroid Zero Mission, Metroid Fusion, Metroid Prime, Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Metroid: Other M, as well as Super Smash Bros. Melee and Brawl. I've also played through better part of Super Metroid and read the prequal manga.

And she does what you describe precisely never.

Also, advocating complete ignorance of game mechanics when the two characters are primarily videogame characters is ill-adviced. Especially when Zeldas and Metroid share plenty of genre conventions and the protagonists do similar things, allowing for easy comparisons.

http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en_color/ch_0002/scaled/sc_MM_Ch2_Page22.jpg

http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en_color/ch_0002/scaled/sc_MM_Ch2_Page23.jpg


These two images show her seeing someone fire, her transforming, picking up somoeone and leaping hundreds of feet into the air with them before the blast even hits the ground .

[Devonix]

http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en_color/ch_0002/scaled/sc_MM_Ch2_Page22.jpg

http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en_color/ch_0002/scaled/sc_MM_Ch2_Page23.jpg


These two images show her seeing someone fire, her transforming, picking up somoeone and leaping hundreds of feet into the air with them before the blast even hits the ground .

And you have to remove some gameplay functionality otherwise you have stuff like characters taking damage simply for touching someone. Or a person only being able to hold two weapons when you know they should be able to carry more.

Gameplay limitations shouldn't affect characters abilities. Link is a medival fantasy setting. Metroid is a high powered scifi fantasy setting. The power scales are too far apart. Normal enemies Samus fights would be world ending threats in other games.

[Red Fel]

Also, I don't think the grapple beam works in combat. So I am not sure how much of a surprise that would be...

It's present in most games, and has combat applications in Smash Brothers; I'd allow it.


Shield gliding is certainly a surprise.

And not consistent across games; I'd probably not allow it.


Not really.

The debuted in LttP which had a standstill start up and straight line requirement which was kept for MC/LbW, but LA allowed you to charge up while running and it's improved handling allowed you to run at angles too. Both Oracles also had the pegasus seed which acted more like PH's version of the boots by providing a temporary speed increase no matter which way you were trying to move, they also appear in one of the Four Sword games along side the boots as well. And in the Four Swords series you can also turn while charging via the boots.

So that's five that require you to stop to use them but only three of them limit you to an unyielding line. And four that don't require a stationary charge. The majority suggests Link should have to pause to use them but has no limitation on curves. And if you count Young Link from HW where the boots are instantaneous and allow sharp turns that would instead bring things to a tie.

Alternatively, there is also the bunny hood and the Goron mask.
Also a horse, wolf form, a train, a boat, and a loftwing that can also be considered.
And Link's ability to simply teleport from point A to point B.

Like I said, it's closer than you think.

Short version, Link has . To make it reasonably consistent, we can simply say that he has a fast movement mode with a brief charge time, and that he can curve somewhat but not completely change direction. That pretty much covers the "close to combat range" gap, since unless Samus moves [I]substantially out of the way, a minor curve can correct Link's trajectory.


More on point, the speed booster is supersonic (343m/s) per Fusion and Zero Mission making it faster than the Pegasus boots. It has a 1 second delay in Super, 2 second delay in Fusion/Zero, and a 5 second delay in Other M giving an average delay of 2.5 seconds which is longer than the Pegasus boot's longest start up delay. Damage is mostly unknown, in Super it's 300 making it the equivalent of a super missile or ice+wave+plasma beam, but in a strict SNES crossover that assumed the previously mentioned missile=bomb then Link's golden sword deals 1/3 more damage per hit than the speed booster's shinespark. From this we can expect Samus to primarily use the speed booster to avoid Link rather than any direct combat means but she needs an open chance in order to do so and is highly terrain dependent. Not only needing open ground to use it, but also a lack of cover for Link to hide behind allowing her to use her ranged arsenal from a long distance away.

Okay. So we know Samus has a faster movement mode with a longer delay, and that she'll probably use it for tactical repositioning as opposed to damage. That's good data. It also means that once Link has seen Samus charge her Speed Booster once, he won't give her the opportunity to do so again. Same is probably true of the Pegasus Boots.


I really don't understand the use of ingame damage instead of how much damage it would do lorewise. Link's swinging a sword around, and I don't think he's swinging it with enough force to penetrate Samus's armor. Wheras Samus can simply blast Link's face or manhandle him in straight combat since she's physically far stronger as well as more agile in close combat. And hell a Superbomb would atomize the surrounding area.

We can't rely on the lore because, simply put, that's a contest between a laser-firing space warrior with a building-busting cannon and a pixie swordsman. No contest.

We rely on the game mechanics because that shows us the abilities with which we are familiar.

Side note, Link's sword can carve through the hide of a magical pig-demon and the stoney-metal skin of living statues. I think he'll do fine.


Another thing for the Suprises list- Magnetic Iron Boots.

I don't think those appeared in enough games to be applicable here. Also, I don't know what they'd add.


These two images show her seeing someone fire, her transforming, picking up somoeone and leaping hundreds of feet into the air with them before the blast even hits the ground .

And they didn't happen in the games. As I said earlier, we really need to rely on stuff from multiple sources, and this is just one - and a non-canon one at that.


And you have to remove some gameplay functionality otherwise you have stuff like characters taking damage simply for touching someone. Or a person only being able to hold two weapons when you know they should be able to carry more.

Actually, gameplay mechanics allow Link to hold the equivalent of an armory in a little pouch on his belt. But yes, we are ignoring certain gameplay rules like "contact is automatic damage." We also need to ignore the sheer number of hearts Link has, and Faerie in a Bottle revives, as previously mentioned.


Gameplay limitations shouldn't affect characters abilities. Link is a medival fantasy setting. Metroid is a high powered scifi fantasy setting. The power scales are too far apart. Normal enemies Samus fights would be world ending threats in other games.

And if that's your position, then there's no discussion needed. Samus wins.

Those of us who want to actually consider the combat scenario will be over here, doing so.

[Prime32]

And they didn't happen in the games. As I said earlier, we really need to rely on stuff from multiple sources, and this is just one - and a non-canon one at that.The Metroid manga is canon. Fusion and Zero Mission make direct reference to it, even having panels from the manga show up in-game.

Samus & Joey is the non-canon manga: it features things like Samus moving faster than the eye can can see (http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/samus_joey_en/ch_0001/scaled/sc_SAJ_Vol1_020.jpg), catching bullets out of the air (http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/samus_joey_en/ch_0001/scaled/sc_SAJ_Vol1_021.jpg) while doing other things at the same time (http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/samus_joey_en/ch_0001/scaled/sc_SAJ_Vol1_022.jpg), shattering walls with her punches (http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/samus_joey3_en/ch_0012/scaled/sc_SAJ_CH12_031.jpg), performing combined (http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/samus_joey3_en/ch_0013/scaled/sc_SAJ_CH13_059.jpg) Shinespark (http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/samus_joey3_en/ch_0013/scaled/sc_SAJ_CH13_060-061.jpg) Screw Attacks (http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/samus_joey3_en/ch_0013/scaled/sc_SAJ_CH13_062.jpg) with extreme manueverability and no charge time, and powering up to five times her normal strength through willpower (http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/samus_joey3_en/ch_0014/scaled/sc_090.jpg).

[zimmerwald1915]

It's present in most games, and has combat applications in Smash Brothers; I'd allow it.
Not to mention Prime III, where they tried using the grapple beam to make the most of the motion controls.

[Maryring]

Okay. So we know Samus has a faster movement mode with a longer delay, and that she'll probably use it for tactical repositioning as opposed to damage. That's good data. It also means that once Link has seen Samus charge her Speed Booster once, he won't give her the opportunity to do so again. Same is probably true of the Pegasus Boots.

---

Side note, Link's sword can carve through the hide of a magical pig-demon and the stoney-metal skin of living statues. I think he'll do fine.

I have to disagree on your conclusion that Link won't give Samus an opportunity to charge her Speed Booster for two reasons. Samus steadily builds up speed as she runs in a given direction, until she is running many times faster than her usual run speed. The Pegasus Boots on the other hand are binary. Either you're moving at about double normal speed, or you aren't. There exists a sweet spot where Link can catch up to Samus, assuming they both start running at the same time. But if Samus can create enough initial distance before they both start to run, then she'll be able to get away.

Which brings me to her second point, namely creating that initial distance. There's one tool I would argue Samus has that hasn't been properly accounted for and that's her Boost Ball, her ability to use a smaller speed boost while in Morph Ball form. Since this is essentially an alternate use of her Shine Spark power, I'll argue that it should be present in this theoretical incarnation of her. Even then, it was present in all three Prime games.

Now, with the ability to use the Boost Ball, Samus will be able to use Morph Ball mode not just to create some distance between the two, but also punish Link for chasing her by dropping bombs. Leaving behind a bomb does not slow her movement, so Link will be forced to weave around them or utilize a ranged option to try and tag her. This is where the Boost Ball becomes important. With it, Samus's escape path can become highly irregular and unpredictable, making it difficult for Link to tag her with Bow or Boomerang.

---

Second part. The sword's ability to carve through Ganon's hide is ostensibly tied to it being the Master Sword and it's ability to cut through evil. So I don't see the Master Sword being in any way specially capable of cutting through Samus's defenses.

That doesn't mean it will have no effect though. Samus's suit projects a force field which will stop the sword from hitting her. But it'll expend energy doing so. Maybe not as much as a hit from Ridley would, but Link will certainly be able to damage Samus with all of his damaging abilities.

[Mato]

I really don't understand the use of ingame damage instead of how much damage it would do lorewise.It gives a mechanical sense of scale over a more subjective one, like assuming scifi auto-wins against medieval and in turn propagating any vs fight's results from that ideology rather than the characters involved.


It's about playing with expectations. After she's seen a few bombs in action, she'll think she knows what's safe and what isn't.I really wouldn't expect her to run up and hug the bright blue orb with a fuse on it anyway. A bomb is a bomb, it's pretty obvious to begin with.

If Samus ducked behind some rocks for a over advantage and seen pretty much anything lobbed over the wall and landing next to her she should automatically assume it's a grenade-type weapon and she's put in the precarious situation of guaranteed damage for not moving and risking exposing her self to whatever her opponent has planned for her. And the thing is knowing Link has bombs doesn't really change things, if she doesn't have the option for grenade proof cover she's forced into it just like she's forced to make a decision on the above.


That's a new one on me, when did this happen?Every game after the NES?

Besides the obvious Farore's Wind which let's Link set up recall points, the various warp points he can unlock in most games, and if Samus gets her ship then things like LttP's bird isn't logically limited to wind vanes. Generally he travels to two worlds allowing him to exit one, traverse the other, and return which may be the slowest form of a teleportation ever, it does allow you to ignore obstacles and enemies that are waiting in ambush in the other world.


It's present in most games, and has combat applications in Smash Brothers; I'd allow it.In Super, where the grapple beam debuted, it dealt damage when fired at enemies anyway. Prime3 also included an upgrade to it called the energy lasso which was designed to pump electricity into the grappled target. So even Smash aside Samus can use her grapple beam as a weapon.


The Metroid manga is canon. Fusion and Zero Mission make direct reference to it, even having panels from the manga show up in-game.I really like the fact that you included links and referenced your material, but when you say "the Metroid manga" are you aware there are about a dozen different ones? Other nitpicks include things like powering up = charge beam which isn't new news, the linked manga panels depicts a charge up time to use the screw attack which disagrees with every single one of the games. And if you paid attention a panel is spent showing her floating in the air before shinesparking which disagrees with the games on how to activate but also disagrees with your statement that she can instantaneously use it.

Link can also play the non-canon manga game. Here is Link saving a guy from an already slashing sword (http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5420960-7934873398-k36.j.jpg) by kicking him fifty feet away (http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5420961-3623569224-k37.j.jpg) without strength power ups. And speaking of brick walls, Link can be thrown around (http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5420422-7791239187-14.jp.jpg) by a guy capable of shattering brick walls (http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5420421-8871800384-13.jp.jpg) and stand up like it was nothing to decapitate (http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5420423-2873313794-15.jp.jpg) his opponent. With a speed power up he can save multiple people from the same energy attack (http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5421217-7457458325-34087.jpg) at once because using speed boosting items just to save one guy is pretty lame. There is also power scaling like Ricky is fast (http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5421248-5338891838-2.jpg.jpg) & powerful (http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5421243-1095259386-13.jp.jpg) but lost to Might (http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5421235-3241409249-15.jp.jpg) who lost to Link (http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5421232-0678913907-5.jpg.jpg). Here is Ganty blitzing (http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5420449-9889533892-16.jp.jpg) and being called slow (http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5420439-4002924298-20.jp.jpg), which is expected since Link can be injured (http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5421060-3307376091-k24.j.jpg), climbing a mountain (http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5421061-7220940659-k25.j.jpg) no one thought he could make, and still cut down three mooks instantly (http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5421062-7847093951-k26.j.jpg). He can also move so fast he can vanish from sight (http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5421158-9782718231-19.jp.jpg). And several of Link's opponents use lightning (http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5421170-0148597359-12.jp.jpg), specially (http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5421351-7949353462-legen.jpg) Ganon (http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/5421353-0440505812-legen.jpg), but there are others like that eyeball monster in LttP and electricity moves very close to the speed of light.

While moving faster than a sword and killing multiple people at once doesn't seem as cool as catching a bullet, at least it's fairly constant throughout several mangas and that's "base form Link", as demonstrated his speed enhanced version was fast enough to save four people in the time it for an energy blast to hit the ground.

[Prime32]

I really like the fact that you included links and referenced your material, but when you say "the Metroid manga" are you aware there are about a dozen different ones?I'm talking about the manga just called "Metroid", with Samus's backstory in it.


Other nitpicks include things like powering up = charge beam which isn't new newsThat's not the charge beam. The guys scanning Samus are aware of all her weapons (and just saw her use the charge beam anyway), but have never seen her display this level of power before, to the point where they claim that "Samus is transforming!". And she uses that extra energy to power up a Super Missile rather than a beam shot anyway.

[Frozen_Feet]

http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en_color/ch_0002/scaled/sc_MM_Ch2_Page22.jpg

http://www.metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en_color/ch_0002/scaled/sc_MM_Ch2_Page23.jpg


These two images show her seeing someone fire, her transforming, picking up somoeone and leaping hundreds of feet into the air with them before the blast even hits the ground .

... and if you use those panels as proof she's moving at FTL speeds, you are an idiot. That's overinterpretation on the level of the derp-worthy "Shunpo is FTL, guys" prevalent in Bleach fandom.

Consider the possibility that the beam being shot is moving at the same speed as weapon blasts in the games. That, alone, drops the speed required for the stunt by several orders of magnitude. Then consider that 1) Samus is, again, never said to be capable of FTL movement in the games in continuity with this manga and 2) the unarmored Chozo elder remains in one piece. So neither the art or rest of the canon supports "Samus is FTL" interpretation.

[Devonix]

... and if you use those panels as proof she's moving at FTL speeds, you are an idiot. That's overinterpretation on the level of the derp-worthy "Shunpo is FTL, guys" prevalent in Bleach fandom.

Consider the possibility that the beam being shot is moving at the same speed as weapon blasts in the games. That, alone, drops the speed required for the stunt by several orders of magnitude. Then consider that 1) Samus is, again, never said to be capable of FTL movement in the games in continuity with this manga and 2) the unarmored Chozo elder remains in one piece. So neither the art or rest of the canon supports "Samus is FTL" interpretation.

Come now, there's no reason for insults. Just say that you disagree with the interpretation of the scene. I'm fine with that.

[Mato]

That's not the charge beam. The guys scanning Samus are aware of all her weapons (and just saw her use the charge beam anyway), but have never seen her display this level of power before, to the point where they claim that "Samus is transforming!". And she uses that extra energy to power up a Super Missile rather than a beam shot anyway.I have no doubt what's depicted is inaccurate and misleading given the source, but what I am saying is Samus does have a charging ability. The charge beam empowers her different beams, morph ball bombs, missiles, and even gives her a pseudo-screw attack making it clearly a systems wide charging ability.

It's also the charging beam that allows you to expend power bombs or missiles to use the third tier blast of your beam and it appears responsible for Other M's recharge mechanic.

[Frozen_Feet]

Few comments about the "tech level" tangent:

1) Zelda is not "medieval". In Link's Awakening, Link dreams of phone booths. In Ocarina of Time, we see late renessaince level architechture. In Skyward Sword, there is a lost civilization with time reversal crystals, electrical circuits and sapient robots. In Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, there are steam engines. The games do not take place in a single time period and are not subject to technological stasis - we see the series range from medieval to brink of industrial revolution to post-apocalyptic.

2) "Tech level" or setting thematics is no guarantee of who can hurt who. Several of Aran's opponents are just big animals, but she can still be injured and even killed by them if careless. And nothing makes scifi beasts inherently more powerful than fantasy beasts. Case in point: Gorons from Zelda. Here we have humanoids who weigh hundreds of kilos each, can crush granite with bare hands, eat rocks & lava & bombs, can survive extreme temperatures and even bathe in lava, and can curl up in a ball and roll around at extreme speeds, crushing monsters, rocks and walls of ice alike... wait, don't those last few items maybe bring to mind someone else?

There are plenty of Zelda monsters which would be dangerous to Samus, because they display traits similar to and sometimes identical to monsters from Metroid.

[Knaight]

Few comments about the "tech level" tangent:

1) Zelda is not "medieval". In Link's Awakening, Link dreams of phone booths. In Ocarina of Time, we see late renessaince level architechture. In Skyward Sword, there is a lost civilization with time reversal crystals, electrical circuits and sapient robots. In Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, there are steam engines. The games do not take place in a single time period and are not subject to technological stasis - we see the series range from medieval to brink of industrial revolution to post-apocalyptic.

2) "Tech level" or setting thematics is no guarantee of who can hurt who. Several of Aran's opponents are just big animals, but she can still be injured and even killed by them if careless. And nothing makes scifi beasts inherently more powerful than fantasy beasts. Case in point: Gorons from Zelda. Here we have humanoids who weigh hundreds of kilos each, can crush granite with bare hands, eat rocks & lava & bombs, can survive extreme temperatures and even bathe in lava, and can curl up in a ball and roll around at extreme speeds, crushing monsters, rocks and walls of ice alike... wait, don't those last few items maybe bring to mind someone else?

There are plenty of Zelda monsters which would be dangerous to Samus, because they display traits similar to and sometimes identical to monsters from Metroid.

On the first point: While Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks all have steam engines and there are a lot of items that are beyond medieval technology in Zelda in general (the hookshot really stands out here, although that's entirely from an energy density perspective and could be solved by magic) the medieval point is mostly accurate. OoT's architecture is all within the medieval range (albeit the range of more developed areas and not the backwater that was England which provides so much of the anglophone history). More than that the weaponry is consistently within the medieval rang, if not actually medieval technology. The sword and bow are all sorts of medieval, the slingshot is an inferior bow, the boomerang is stone age, the bombs are well within the technology of medieval explosives, etc.

On two: While some of Samus's opponents are technically just big animals every time the lore comes up it is abundantly clear that these animals routinely have adaptations that make them much more dangerous than the term "big animals" implies. A lot of these outright prefer to live in lava or extremely strong acids that would deter microscopic extremophiles, a lot of them explicitly have carapaces or similar better than metal armor and similar teeth/spikes/whatever, more than a few can straight up breathe fire or acid or high density freezing gas. There are several swarming creatures that apparently managed to develop explosive processing and self detonate. The ecosystems are in short full of ridiculously capable creatures, much more so than the Zelda universe.

[Mato]

On two: While some of Samus's opponents are technically just big animals every time the lore comes up it is abundantly clear that these animals routinely have adaptations that make them much more dangerous than the term "big animals" implies.Uh-huh.
"Zeela are arthropods sporting long eyestalks that appear in Metroid, Metroid: Zero Mission, Super Metroid, and Metroid Fusion. They are quite agile and can climb walls and hang onto ceilings with little difficulty. They are native to Brinstar and Kraid's Lair on Zebes. Like the near-identical Geemers of Crateria and Norfair, Zeelas seem to be nothing more than indigenous lifeforms and not a biological weapon used by the Space Pirates. According to the Metroid manual, they have no bones." ~wiki.
"These boneless animals creep along horizontal and vertical surfaces. They normally live underground. The blue ones are the strongest." ~Metroid manual
"Crawls around the floor and ceiling, moving its eyeballs." ~1986 manga
"This enemy moves like Zoomers and lives underground. His defensive power is stronger than Zoomers’." ~Official Nintendo Player's Guide
"Moving slowly on lush surfaces, they only serve to get in your way." ~Super Metroid Nintendo Player's Guide
At least Link's jelly enemies are amorphous, capable of leaping at their enemies, electrified, horrendously teethed, and tasty. :smalltongue:

[Kyberwulf]

Meh, how dangerous can Link's monsters be. I mean a kid with no training can take them out. Remember, Link has no training. He is basically given a sword and goes and hacks at all his enemies. At least in Metroid, you are given the backstory of Samus being a trained BA, with a lot of experience at her belt. If Link wasn't given the plot armor of being a Main character, he wouldn't have succeeded based on skill alone.

Also, I don't think you should use any of Smash Brothers as a source. A lot of characters on that game are routinely given powers and abilities they don't have, or their powers are exaggerated. Just to keep them relevant in the game.

I also like how people are assigning real world equivalences to these games. "Well, they have Renaissance level architecture so we can clearly not choose the time in front of me. Yet they also have phone booths, so I can clearly not choose the time in front of you." "Yes captain, these rocks are 1o meters high, 3 meters wide, and 2 meters long. If we assume that they way the same as a rock on earth..." Okay Valcuans. They could way as much as Styrofoam. Link is an elf you know. See the thing is, with you admitting science would work on Hyrule, you admit Samus' gear would work. Yet, we don't know if Hyrule's magic would work any where else. Could be, Link is near death.. plops out his glass jar and tries to summon a fairy, only to find that it turned to dust once he past the wall.

Samus has the training, firepower, and the experience of the universe's most BA bounty hunter. Meaning she has been from world to world.Taking out all types of challenges.

All Link has going for him is.... MAYBE Experiences, if you roll all the Links into one to give him a shot. Firepower? Meh, to situational. Yeah he has some Magic "I win" buttons, but that just makes it clearer he needs outside help to win. He has no training to go off.

A clear indication of who is better and would win. Just transpose the two characters in their games. I have a hard time picturing Link doing well in any of Samus' worlds. On the flip side I can see Samus doing what Link does preatty easily. Meaning if you gave her the same "I am special" card that get's Link access to all his gear. I have a hard time seeing Link walking around in any of Samus' world. With is wooden stick and plastic shield.

[Red Fel]

Samus has the training, firepower, and the experience of the universe's most BA bounty hunter. Meaning she has been from world to world.Taking out all types of challenges.

All Link has going for him is.... MAYBE Experiences, if you roll all the Links into one to give him a shot. Firepower? Meh, to situational. Yeah he has some Magic "I win" buttons, but that just makes it clearer he needs outside help to win. He has no training to go off.

This is a pure fluff argument. I can just as easily make a pure fluff counterpoint. Observe.

"Samus is an augmented human with some training. Link is a multiple-times reincarnated destined hero with literal lifetimes of training (thanks to time travel) who also possesses the Triforce of Courage, a fragment of the animating magic of an entire world that imbues him with the wherewithal, stamina, and creativity to overcome any obstacle. She's a space soldier, he's a divinely-empowered time-traveling champion."

And then let's talk about monsters. "She fights various mutated and dangerous lifeforms and extremophiles. He fights balls of magic, animated suits of armor, giant terror-spiders, actual demons, an evil god on a couple of occasions, and manages to overcome a supreme sorcerer imbued with the power of Power itself. She does it in space armor, and he does it in a tunic and short-shorts."

Fluff cuts both ways, and should probably be disregarded.

[georgie_leech]

and he does it in a tunic and short-shorts."

OBJECTION! He also has a funny hat.

[Devonix]

Each Link is a completely separate individual. You cannot give one the experience of the others.

[Kyberwulf]

Except the ONLY reason he is able to fight all that stuff, is because he is "destined" to win. He survives purely off plot armor, and story contrivance. He is "destined" to get the ONE Item that is need to win against the big boss. All his specialness wouldn't help him if he went on a walkabout in Samus' game. Samus would easily survive in Link's world with her gear, EXCEPT where it is specifically needed Link's Destiny to get his special gear. Such as the Master Sword. Or other things. Heck, it might even be that the gods and sword would find Samus worthy, in which case she would easily win against all of Link's gear.

You are trying to argue that Static things, like gear make the person. It doesn't. While both combatants are probably "worthy" of being a hero. Meaning that both would probably get access to links gear, I don't think Link would get access to Samus' gear. He pretty much always just happens into fate. Whereas Samus was chosen by the Chozo. Link just doesn't have the experience of needing one life to succeed. He has so many different lives in so many games. Samus needed to win.

You also have this idea that magic trumps science. When we don't know which is better. In your mind being a Demon somehow makes you special. It could be, Link could try use his sword on something from Samus' world, only to find .. clunk. It's just metal. It's special-ness is tied intrinsically to Hyrule. Whereas you guys argue that our science and world is the same as theirs, ergo Samus' stuff would work there.

[Knaight]

And then let's talk about monsters. "She fights various mutated and dangerous lifeforms and extremophiles. He fights balls of magic, animated suits of armor, giant terror-spiders, actual demons, an evil god on a couple of occasions, and manages to overcome a supreme sorcerer imbued with the power of Power itself. She does it in space armor, and he does it in a tunic and short-shorts."

I notice we're comparing the bottom of the Metroid pile (war wasps, zoomers) with the top of the Zelda pile. It's not like there aren't plenty of enemies there that are either modified small animals (keese, cuckoo) or the rough equivalent of human bandits who are really incompetent at their banditry (moblins). Sure, this is to make a point about fluff arguments in general, but all it really does is prove that among the fluff arguments are ones that are obviously bad. It's just not that convincing.

Fluff as a whole also really can't be disregarded - there's just not enough overlap in the games to work entirely off mechanics. It's not like both games have a shared enemy somewhere that can be used to calibrate. Certain sources of fluff should probably be ignored, such as the various Metroid comics, but core capabilities of each character in fluff terms are pretty key. Eventually even a purely mechanical comparison is going to come back to fluff when connecting the two games, unless we just map the existing quanta of 1 HP to 1 HP - which has obvious problems. I could use said obvious problems to argue that mechanics should be completely ignored by making a deliberately lousy mechanical argument based off of them, but that's a waste of both our times.


Except the ONLY reason he is able to fight all that stuff, is because he is "destined" to win. He survives purely off plot armor, and story contrivance. He is "destined" to get the ONE Item that is need to win against the big boss. All his specialness wouldn't help him if he went on a walkabout in Samus' game. Samus would easily survive in Link's world with her gear, EXCEPT where it is specifically needed Link's Destiny to get his special gear. Such as the Master Sword. Or other things. Heck, it might even be that the gods and sword would find Samus worthy, in which case she would easily win against all of Link's gear.
The destiny bit only covers a small amount of what's shown. Destiny grants him access to the master sword every so often, but it's not the reason he's able to fight, able to generally be fairly athletic (there's a lot of climbing on less than ideal surfaces at decent speeds with questionable armor, walking in ludicrously heavy shoes, swimming while carrying a lot of equipment, holding on to something accelerating quickly, etc.), and have the other capabilities he has. Have him wander around a metroid planet for a while and things like good aim with a bow and generally knowing how to fight with a sword and shield will count for something.

[Devonix]

Most Links have combat training, but not all of them have equal amounts.

Skyward Sword Link: Formal swordtraining in Skyloft
Twilight Princess Link: Bow and some sword training, as well as getting aditional training from the Hero of time
ALttP Link: Training from his uncle in their family's sword style.
Legend of Zelda Link: Unknown training, but an experienced adventurer before the game starts
Wind Waker Link: I'd say the one with the least combat training since he's the youngest as well as only having a bit of training from his neighbor.

[golentan]

Most Links have combat training, but not all of them have equal amounts.

Skyward Sword Link: Formal swordtraining in Skyloft
Twilight Princess Link: Bow and some sword training, as well as getting aditional training from the Hero of time
ALttP Link: Training from his uncle in their family's sword style.
Legend of Zelda Link: Unknown training, but an experienced adventurer before the game starts
Wind Waker Link: I'd say the one with the least combat training since he's the youngest as well as only having a bit of training from his neighbor.

I dunno about the Wind Waker one. I mean, said neighbor is an objectively better fighter than Ganon.

And Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask Link's combat training consists of "find a sword lying around, read some signs which describe basic attacks. Everything else is self taught.

[Mato]

Except the ONLY reason he is able to fight all that stuff, is because he is "destined" to win.The fallen hero timeline and past-life shade living an undead life of remorse from TP says otherwise.


Meh, how dangerous can Link's monsters be. I mean a kid with no training can take them out. Remember, Link has no training.But is a sharpshooter with a bow the moment he gets it and can actually get a boomerang to come back to him, after hitting five different targets. WW's Link also uses several TP's hidden skills the moment he picks up a sword too. The prevailing theory for his in-game instant mastery comes from the reincarnating spirit of the hero, similar to how Gannondorf never really dies and all Zeldas get magical light powers. Is there anything else you don't know about the games you feel I need to cover?

Also that complaint isn't even a point of relevant discussion, the thread has the noted pretenses in the first post. There are rules to this fight, one of them is banning certain types of shenanigans and another is all Links combined, but unstacking, since virtually all of these items are laying around in treasure chests in Hyrule as each Link retires. Two great examples of what's banned is how OoT & MM share the same Link which had/has an infinite amount of time to train whatever he wishes or even restart the fight over and over again and he also has access to limitless invincibility so the thread is over and Link wins. Another would be how LttP, both Oracles, and LA use the same Link and that one has the ability to zip back and forth through four different seasons and at least two different points in time with multiple bottles, increased magic, and invincibility items much like the first. If you feel this is unfair then I acknowledge and accept your input that Link should win and I how am unfairly favoring Samus. However I am stubborn and I will continue on with my "unfair" treatment anyway.

[zimmerwald1915]

get the ONE Item that is need to win against the big boss.
This describes the core of both Metroid and Zelda gameplay, with a couple of caveats (mostly that One Items were less necessary to beat bosses in the earlier games; I'm pretty sure item-gated navigation has always been a thing to some extent though).

[Frozen_Feet]

The "low tier" of Zelda villains contains bioelectric jellies (yellow ChuChu), bats which live inside a volcano and get more powerful by being set in fire (fire keese), centipedes which live inside magma (gohma), bats which encase you in ice if you touch them (ice keese), mice which variably explode or are smart enough to actually carry and throw bombs (Bombchu) and spiked or bladed balls of iron which crash at you at 20 to 40 kilometers per hour (traps & spikes).

There is no non-stupid principle under which these are less impressive than parasites, spiked beetles, reaper vines, shriekbats, zoomers, geemers or other "low tier" Metroid opponents.

The "mid-tier" of Zelda villains includes armored knights strong enough to knock down stone pillars (darknuts), evil wizards capable of disappearing into thin air and conjuring fire and ice (wizrobes), glass eyes capable of shooting lazers, and the aforementioned Gorons.

There is no non-stupid principle under which these are less impressive than plated beetles, space pirates, magmoor serpents, security turrets or other "mid-tier" Metroid opponents.

The "high tier" of Zelda villains includes gigantic magma-dwelling armored insect (King Gohma), gigantic fire-spewing sandworms (Twinmold & Molgerra), evil ghosts capable of shooting firestorms and balls of energy (Phantom Ganon), a magma-dwelling flying dragon (Volvagia) and another larger one in metal armor (whatever that dragon in Twilight Princess was) and giant stone statues which come to life and shoot bombs out of their mouths (Tower of God boss in Wind Waker).

There is no non-stupid principle under which these are less impressive than Flaaghra, Chykka, Chozo Ghosts, Thardus, or the weaker versions *) of Ridley.

*) by "weaker versions", I refer to original Metroid and Zero Mission, where Ridley's attacks only include firebreathing and attacks with tail and claws. The stronger versions are space-flight capable cyborgs.

[Frozen_Feet]

Regarding Link and his training:

Links tend to be total bumpkins at the start of their games, but it'd be ludicrous to think they are unskilled at the ends of their games. To use this as an argument towards Link being less skilled than Samus is fallacious. As has been noted, Samus is the same from game to game, and none of the games start from her humble beginnings. (Zero Mission is the closest we get to playing Samus as a total novice.) In comparison, many Zelda games start by showing Link's life before he becomes a hero.

Let's take a look at Wind Waker Link. He arguably represents the arguable bottom of the bunch at the beginning: he owns no weapons, has no training in anything useful and is explicitly not a reincarnation of Hero of Time. Heck, he lives by the sea yet can't even swim for more than a few dozen meters or so!

But: to get his first sword, he has to pass a swordsmanship course containing basic slashes and lunges, as well as a spinning strike, a jumping cut, a backflip and a maneuver where he rolls to dodge and then jumps half his height in the air while performing a spinning slash aimed at the back of his opponent.

After passing the course, he can cut down palm trees as thick as his arm. Multiple such palm trees, actually. With one cut.

And then he tags along with pirates. Where he has to pass a test where he has to hang from ropes and swing on them from block to block.

Soon after, he gets shot out of a cannon, hits a fortress wall - and lives. I don't remember what happens if he gets caught while in the fortress, but I think he gets thrown off the fortress wall, which is 10 to 20 meter falls. I don't rememer if he landd on rock or water, but it wouldn't make a difference - not much later in Forbidden Forest, he can fall 20 something meters straight down on a solid surface and survive.

Keep in mind, these are stuff he does before he gets any strength or defensive upgrades.

Later in the game, he has the opportunity to learn the Hurricane Slash, a hidden sword technique - but to be allowed this, he has to acquire 30 Knight's Crests. How do you get these? Why, by fighting and defeating 30 armored knights in mortal kombat! Sometimes, you have to fight several at once.

WW Link can also take part of a challenge by his sword master to hit him 300 times before Link gets hit 3 times.

But hey. Totally kid stuff. Any random teenager could do it, surely.

[Maryring]

Samus would easily survive in Link's world with her gear, EXCEPT where it is specifically needed Link's Destiny to get his special gear. Such as the Master Sword. Or other things. Heck, it might even be that the gods and sword would find Samus worthy,

Now I want a Zelda/Metroid crossover. Nintendo, please make it so.

[zimmerwald1915]

(whatever that dragon in Twilight Princess was)
It was named Argorok. Not to be confused with kargoroks, which are pterosaurs with chicken combs.


Soon after, he gets shot out of a cannon, hits a fortress wall - and lives. I don't remember what happens if he gets caught while in the fortress, but I think he gets thrown off the fortress wall, which is 10 to 20 meter falls.
Unless they changed it in the remake, if Link is caught in the first visit to the Forsaken Fortress, a moblin throws its lantern at him which spills burning oil all over the floor, and then throws him in a dungeon cell.

[Frozen_Feet]

Oh, that sounds about right. I must've mixed up Wind Waker's Link and Majora's Mask Link in my thoughta - it's the latter who gets thrown off a fortress wall if he's caught sneaking in the Gerudo fortress.

[KillingAScarab]

Now I want a Zelda/Metroid crossover. Nintendo, please make it so.A team-up seems doable to me. I mean, Metroid Prime had plenty of Chozo magic/technology fusions.


Oh, that sounds about right. I must've mixed up Wind Waker's Link and Majora's Mask Link in my thoughta - it's the latter who gets thrown off a fortress wall if he's caught sneaking in the Gerudo fortress.Oh, right. There's that one quest where you use the pictobox to get a picture of one of the Gerudo warriors' faces... for a lonely fisherman (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Fisherman_%28Majora%27s_Mask%29). One of the creepier ways to advance a plot in the series.

[zimmerwald1915]

A team-up seems doable to me. I mean, Metroid Prime had plenty of Chozo magic/technology fusions.

Oh, right. There's that one quest where you use the pictobox to get a picture of one of the Gerudo warriors' faces... for a lonely fisherman (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Fisherman_%28Majora%27s_Mask%29). One of the creepier ways to advance a plot in the series.
Considering what Lenzo has you get up to in Wind Waker, has the pictobox ever been used for anything other than creepy voyeurism?

[Knaight]

Links tend to be total bumpkins at the start of their games, but it'd be ludicrous to think they are unskilled at the ends of their games. To use this as an argument towards Link being less skilled than Samus is fallacious. As has been noted, Samus is the same from game to game, and none of the games start from her humble beginnings. (Zero Mission is the closest we get to playing Samus as a total novice.) In comparison, many Zelda games start by showing Link's life before he becomes a hero.

Total bumpkins with a lot of natural talent. Twilight Princess link had maybe done some stick fighting with the other kids prior to picking up the Ordon sword and shield, but he immediately uses it effectively. Even being able to draw the bows that show up is indicative of a lot of strength, and that's before we get into how Link is a natural sharpshooter. Heck in Ocarina of Time he's a natural horse archer despite never having used either a horse or a bow prior to the game. The destiny angle really only comes up inasmuch as it lets him bypass Ganon(dorf)'s more ridiculous defenses.

[The Glyphstone]

How would the two fair if they were swapped? Give Link an appropriately sized suit of power armor with Samus's weapons and set him to fighting Ridley and the space pirates, while Samus gets a sword, shield, and other assorted hardware (including the nebulous designation of 'chosen one') and tasked with defeating Ganandork. Assume both have the minimal competence not to kill themselves with their own gear before they figure out which end is pointy/boomy.

[Knaight]

How would the two fair if they were swapped? Give Link an appropriately sized suit of power armor with Samus's weapons and set him to fighting Ridley and the space pirates, while Samus gets a sword, shield, and other assorted hardware (including the nebulous designation of 'chosen one') and tasked with defeating Ganandork. Assume both have the minimal competence not to kill themselves with their own gear before they figure out which end is pointy/boomy.

It depends on how far their talents really go. Link has a knack for figuring out devices he has never used before, or in many cases knew existed. He'd pick up suit and arm cannon functions just fine, they're a set of unfamiliar projectile weapons, a set of unfamiliar movement systems, some detection gear, and some armor. Some of them aren't even that unfamiliar - going from bomb arrows to missiles is unlikely to cause a lot of confusion, the grapple beam has more than a little resemblance to the grappling hook, hookshot, and clawshot, the fire rod and the flamethrower are basically the same weapon. I could see having some trouble with certain scan visor functions, but he likely wouldn't need them anyways. Could Link pilot a space ship? That's a much murkier case. The skill for intuitively picking up tool use absolutely does extend to vehicles - Link's worked out how to use a few boats, a train, and the tools involved in riding a few different types of animals, although in some cases this is where there actually was explicit training. On the other hand a sailboat or steam engine is a whole different kettle of fish than a spaceship. Then there's the matter of computer systems, futuristic HVAC, and other things that we know Samus uses fairly routinely and that have proven instrumental in her tasks.

In short, I'd expect Link to be able to fight like Samus just fine, and generally navigate planets on foot and as a ball easily enough - being a bit less agile in general doesn't help, but is likely something that can be overcome. Piloting a space ship and interacting with some of the more advanced technology would likely be beyond him, so Link wouldn't be able to do what Samus does. With that said, Link routinely has a helper in his games - assuming that he starts in civilization it's only a matter of time until he finds some sort of small vaguely cute alien who can pilot ships and provide advice over communicators.

On the Samus end, there's no particular reason to think that she has a wide scale weapon knack the way Link does. She's quick, she's strong, she has the psychology needed to fight terrifying monsters, and all of that definitely counts for a fair amount, but whether she can actually use a sword or bow competently is in the air. The boomerang stunts in particular can be outright assumed not to happen. Then there's the matter of magic. How it even works in the Zelda universe is murky, but it does appear to be a rare talent that not everyone has. If being a chosen one covers it, all is well. Absent that, there's a handful of games where there is either no magic or it's accessible by anyone with the right instrument, and while there's no evidence either way on musical talent Samus could presumably figure it out, particularly as some of these instruments don't exactly seem hard to use (the Wind Waker in particular comes to mind).

So, breaking it down by game Samus should be generally fine for the games that don't have Link as a proper spell caster, and which aren't Majora's Mask. For the rest, there's not enough information to even make educated guesses.

[Mato]

Give Link an appropriately sized suit of power armor.
http://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Iron-Link.png

Knaight covered it pretty well, I really don't think Link would have any trouble adapting. We don't know how good Samus would be with a shield given her performance for all out mobility and attack, a boomerang returning after it hits is impossible, she probably never picked up a bow in her life given the prevalence of energy weapons, if Samus doesn't have magic how can she learn it, and some other short comings. But if you fire/throw something enough times you're bound to hit the switch so I think for most of it she'd do all right. Even if she cannot wield the Master Sword, she can always use a bottle to reflect Ganonndorf's shots back :smallsmile:

@Frozen_Feet when your comparison includes magical laser shooting turret is "less impressive" then mechanical laser shooting turret it's pretty obvious your results are skewed.

[theNater]

Short version, Link has . To make it reasonably consistent, we can simply say that he has a fast movement mode with a brief charge time, and that he can curve somewhat but not completely change direction. That pretty much covers the "close to combat range" gap, since unless Samus moves [I]substantially out of the way, a minor curve can correct Link's trajectory.
Remember that thanks to Screw Attack, she can dodge up, which is going to cause Link some trouble.


A bomb is a bomb, it's pretty obvious to begin with.
It's really not, because a bomb isn't a bomb. A bomb is a petard, or a stick of dynamite, or a pineapple grenade, or an M117, or an ICBM. Nobody who doesn't know their function would classify those as the same type of object upon visual inspection, but they're all bombs.

I know it feels like you've always known that a sphere with a fizzy rope is a bomb, but you had to learn that somewhere. Think carefully about where you learned that(I'm fairly sure I learned it from Bugs Bunny cartoons), and then ask yourself where Samus would have learned it.


If Samus ducked behind some rocks for a over advantage and seen pretty much anything lobbed over the wall and landing next to her she should automatically assume it's a grenade-type weapon and she's put in the precarious situation of guaranteed damage for not moving and risking exposing her self to whatever her opponent has planned for her.
Why would Link lob it over the cover when there's enough time left for Samus to get clear? He can hold them before throwing so that they explode in midair, why not just as it passes the cover? That's why he gets a surprise for being able to throw it; after he's done it once Samus will know she needs to get out of range, not just into cover.


Every game after the NES?

Besides the obvious Farore's Wind which let's Link set up recall points, the various warp points he can unlock in most games, and if Samus gets her ship then things like LttP's bird isn't logically limited to wind vanes. Generally he travels to two worlds allowing him to exit one, traverse the other, and return which may be the slowest form of a teleportation ever, it does allow you to ignore obstacles and enemies that are waiting in ambush in the other world.
So...things that only work in specific locations? Even his ability to visit alternate dimensions requires the alternate dimension to exist, and those seem to be features of the particular worlds; a fair battleground isn't going to have those any more than it is going to be riddled with Morph Ball tunnels.


On the Samus end, there's no particular reason to think that she has a wide scale weapon knack the way Link does. She's quick, she's strong, she has the psychology needed to fight terrifying monsters, and all of that definitely counts for a fair amount, but whether she can actually use a sword or bow competently is in the air. The boomerang stunts in particular can be outright assumed not to happen.
Why do you think it's going to be harder for Samus to learn a bow than it is for Link to learn an arm cannon? She's regularly picking up new types of weaponry, even stuff not originally designed to interface with her armor, and using it effectively.

[georgie_leech]

Why do you think it's going to be harder for Samus to learn a bow than it is for Link to learn an arm cannon? She's regularly picking up new types of weaponry, even stuff not originally designed to interface with her armor, and using it effectively.

Quibble, in the metroid universe Chozo tech underlies pretty much everything, so Samus' armor is compatible with pretty much everything. The exceptions tend to be things that make a point of adapting themselves to everything else.

[khadgar567]

Quibble, in the metroid universe Chozo tech underlies pretty much everything, so Samus' armor is compatible with pretty much everything. The exceptions tend to be things that make a point of adapting themselves to everything else.
Can samus's armor make expresso?

[georgie_leech]

Can samus's armor make expresso?

No, but apparently the other way around works. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67o8SC6CRRo)

[Prime32]

a boomerang returning after it hits is impossible,To be fair, Link's boomerang is often explicitly magic.


she probably never picked up a bow in her life given the prevalence of energy weapons, if Samus doesn't have magic how can she learn it, and some other short comings.
There is precedent for Samus learning new techniques on the spot - she was taught the Wall Jump and Shine Spark techniques by animals during the events of Super Metroid.

As for magic... Samus was raised by (and genetically altered into a hybrid of) the Chozo - a race who are super-intelligent, capable of astral projection and can sometimes see into the future. Samus herself has shown passive telepathy on occasion, and it's claimed that she meets the requirements for becoming a Space Pirate general (who use a technique similar to Battle Meditation from the Star Wars EU). That's a lot more than most Links start off with, so I see no reason to assume that she'd be worse at learning magic than he is.

Note also that Samus has encountered magic-based enemies (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Mogenar) before, that she's at the centre of at least one prophecy, and that her second Power Suit (the one she wears in most of the games) is a legendary artifact associated with a Chozo "god of war", complete with a test to prove her worthy of using it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3amY9mkiSVE).

[Mato]

and then ask yourself where Samus would have learned it.From military basics when she was introduced to the grenade and the gunpowder based kinetic weapons as Prime 2 & Other M displays them all carrying. :smallsigh:


Why would Link lob it over the cover when there's enough time left for Samus to get clear?To try and get her to break cover as part of a set up for something else, it wouldn't be the first time he has used bombs as a trap. I feel like already covered this... :smallsigh:


So...things that only work in specific locations?All but Farore's Wind which lets him set up his own specific locations as I said and the game shows off. And Zelda from Smash uses the same spell to quickly teleport around too so that's like five or six sources you've missed in one sentence. :smallsigh:


Why do you think it's going to be harder for Samus to learn a bow than it is for Link to learn an arm cannon?Because unlike you I own, and have killed with, both of them.


To be fair, Link's boomerang is often explicitly magic.Other than TP's version they start as normal boomerangs through. But like I said, Samus could just keep throwing it until she got lucky.


There is precedent for Samus learning new techniques on the spot - she was taught the Wall Jump and Shine Spark techniques by animals during the events of Super Metroid.Are they new through? The remake of Metroid 1 has them as normal abilities which predates Super in the timeline. And the Shinespark is part of the speed booster, it's a little like someone reminding you, the real you, Ctrl+F opens the search dialog box because the software is already designed to handle it for you but you refused to read the manual or click the help button and fully learn what the device can actually do.


and that her second Power Suit (the one she wears in most of the games) is a legendary artifact associated with a Chozo "god of war", complete with a test to prove her worthy of using it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3amY9mkiSVE).That's probably a good point, her clones are considered super bosses. Facing a limited version of her self was, according to the Chozo, the greatest feat she could do to prove her self. The SA-X was considered to be literally an unwinnable fight until she was almost fully powered, and Dark Samus was a main antagonist.

To Link, they are a staple of the series. Dark Link in LoZ2/OoT is easily beaten by exploiting his style, the Four Sword series throws multiple copies at Link including seeming-unique ones like the ones seen in the hand-held rerelease. LbW they are trivialized to a "for fun" fight that technically has Link going against hundreds of versions of him self. I'm not saying Dark Link doesn't hold a reserved spot as a super boss such as his place in spirit tracks, but Link's adaptability (or the inherent properties of the triforce or the true version of the spirit) is so powerful that when matched against an evil version him self it's often a fairly easy fight so they increase the hardness by stacking the odds against you. Such as no healing (PH), consecutive battles (4S), or three-vs-one and they all have upgraded gear but you can't (TH).

Them more similar these two turn out to be, the more of an upper hand Link gets.

[georgie_leech]

To Link, they are a staple of the series. Dark Link in LoZ2/OoT is easily beaten by exploiting his style, the Four Sword series throws multiple copies at Link including seeming-unique ones like the ones seen in the hand-held rerelease. LbW they are trivialized to a "for fun" fight that technically has Link going against hundreds of versions of him self. I'm not saying Dark Link doesn't hold a reserved spot as a super boss such as his place in spirit tracks, but Link's adaptability (or the inherent properties of the triforce or the true version of the spirit) is so powerful that when matched against an evil version him self it's often a fairly easy fight so they increase the hardness by stacking the odds against you. Such as no healing (PH), consecutive battles (4S), or three-vs-one and they all have upgraded gear but you can't (TH).

Them more similar these two turn out to be, the more of an upper hand Link gets.

Zelda II would like a word with you. :smallamused:

[Mato]

To Link, they are a staple of the series. Dark Link in LoZ2/OoT is easily beaten by exploiting his style,
Zelda II would like a word with you. :smallamused:Why? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGcwSNfpAgs)

[Prime32]

Are they new through? The remake of Metroid 1 has them as normal abilities which predates Super in the timeline. And the Shinespark is part of the speed booster, it's a little like someone reminding you, the real you, Ctrl+F opens the search dialog box because the software is already designed to handle it for you but you refused to read the manual or click the help button and fully learn what the device can actually do.Those animals show up again in Fusion, where Samus explicitly says that they're the ones who taught her those abilities, and she makes an effort to repay them for it. They even save Samus's life.
Zero Mission doesn't try to retcon this, so it's safe to handwave the Shinespark's presence as a gameplay conceit rather than "what really happened". It's not that unusual for prequels to do that kind of thing. Particularly since both Zero Mission and the second half of the manga are already in this state with regards to each other - they cover the same period of time and both are considered canon, but for obvious reasons the manga doesn't include Samus wandering around caves for hours, while the game doesn't include Samus having conversations with her enemies.


That's probably a good point, her clones are considered super bosses. Facing a limited version of her self was, according to the Chozo, the greatest feat she could do to prove her self.:smallconfused: The Ruins Test wasn't a contest of power, nor was it a clone of Samus in any way beyond holding a mirror. The Zero Suit pistol is so weak it can't even damage normal enemies; Samus passed the test just by tagging symbols at the right time. Presumably the idea was that an evil person would attack immediately/continuously with powerful weapons, causing them to hit their own image and have their attacks reflected back at them. Alternatively, we know that Old Bird took Samus to see the test chamber before, so it might be a puzzle that only those raised as Chozo would be able to figure out.


The SA-X was considered to be literally an unwinnable fight until she was almost fully powered, and Dark Samus was a main antagonist.

To Link, they are a staple of the series. Dark Link in LoZ2/OoT is easily beaten by exploiting his style, the Four Sword series throws multiple copies at Link including seeming-unique ones like the ones seen in the hand-held rerelease. LbW they are trivialized to a "for fun" fight that technically has Link going against hundreds of versions of him self. I'm not saying Dark Link doesn't hold a reserved spot as a super boss such as his place in spirit tracks, but Link's adaptability (or the inherent properties of the triforce or the true version of the spirit) is so powerful that when matched against an evil version him self it's often a fairly easy fight so they increase the hardness by stacking the odds against you. Such as no healing (PH), consecutive battles (4S), or three-vs-one and they all have upgraded gear but you can't (TH).

Them more similar these two turn out to be, the more of an upper hand Link gets.
The SA-X was considered an unwinnable fight because it's a copy of Samus made when she had all her Super Metroid upgrades (i.e. the version that people call SAMUS ARAN, DESTROYER OF WORLDS), at a time when the real Samus is forced to use a heavily stripped-down suit with far less power and durability than even her baseline SM suit... and while Samus also has a crippling vulnerability to the cold-based weapons that her old suit is equipped with. Even after being fully upgraded, the Fusion Suit is inferior to the original Power Suit.

The Zelda equivalent would be, say, Wolf Link fighting Dark Link... when Dark Link can only be harmed by the Master Sword or Light Arrows... both of which he is wielding, and have been corrupted to hurt good things instead of evil ones. Or maybe a Link with 3 Hearts and no defensive items fighting a Dark Link with 20 Hearts and a Bombos Medallion that deals more than 3 Hearts of damage.

[georgie_leech]

The Zelda equivalent would be, say, Wolf Link fighting Dark Link... when Dark Link can only be harmed by the Master Sword or Light Arrows... both of which he is wielding, and have been corrupted to hurt good things instead of evil ones. Or maybe a Link with 3 Hearts and no defensive items fighting a Dark Link with 20 Hearts and a Bombos Medallion that deals more than 3 Hearts of damage.

And a proper AI. Apparently we're judging threat levels by AI too, so here's my submission. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Ap14qUORo)

[Mato]

Those animals show up again in Fusion,That doesn't matter. The Zero Mission and the Prime series were released after Fusion and they retcon Samus knowing how to wall jump prior to the events in Super. And given that you can wall jump before meeting the Etecoons, Samus has no dependency on learning anything from them. You're not going to get a free pass on the shinespark either, it doesn't matter what Fusion claims since it's already proven to be retconned and Zero Mission proceeds it it the official timeline. And the manga is a secondary source, if it even counts as a source at all in the first place.

Also compare Samus's "learning" with Link's, Link's advanced abilities are prohibited until trained, Link must train in-game to learn how to use them and masters them almost instantly. Comparatively, Samus is already capable of, and as the game prove she already has done and knows how to do, her "advanced" abilities. Only the metagame element of the player needs to learn how to use them. Your point might as well be claiming the first Prime's instructions on how to move and shoot were magically inner voices that taught Samus how to walk are a clear demonstration of her genius level intellect. :smallsigh:



Facing a limited version of her self was, according to the Chozo, the greatest feat she could do to prove her self.:smallconfused: The ruins test wasn't a contest of power,And if you read my message I said it was about her proving her self worthy of the upgrade.

You think it has to do with brute force because you missed the purpose of the test just as you continue to misunderstand me. Samus, for the first time, has to fight strategically in order to beat her opponent rather than just pumping missiles into it's face when it's mouth or skull is open as she does with every other enemy. The point of the ruin's test is for her to win by examining her target and using her recently obtained weapon to attack it's weak points during the proper times. Previously, the games only punished you for trying to brute force your way through things, which is why most people think Metroids are hard, but to get past the trial you had no other choice.

The Chozo trial for their greatest armor/weapon unlock is one of wisdom, and it's one that Samus doesn't even truly come to master until Other M, but unfortunately for her it's one every incarnation of Link mastered in a matter of minutes as part of his basic crash course.


The Zelda equivalent would be, say,Link vs Dark Link.

When Samus faces a version of her self that's more powerful than she is, all she does is run away and was horrified to learn that she might have to face all sixteen clones, but fifteen of those were skipped and it took two games to deal with the other one.

As already pointed out, and you ignored it, several fights against Link's twins are circumstantially made harder on purpose. In LttP they have the sword drop, charge, a fireball beam, and whirlwind techniques that Link cannot use. In Four Swords Dark Link will bring in big bomb that will kill all Links in one hit. In TH Link has to battle against three of the simultaneously and all three of them "nice" versions of the gear Link has but due to Outfit limitations and selectable items the trio of Links most likely does not and in single-player mode it's impossible to enter the fight with anything more than 1/3 their upgrades. In LbW it's possible to fight a much higher level equipped Dark Link which can deal up to sixteen hearts of damage as a screen-wide attack before you even have a hundred rupees. But instead of fleeing in terror, the spirit of the hero bearing the Triforce of Courage grits his teeth and takes their superior rears out behind the wood shack and teaches them not to mess with him.

For Link, the prospect of facing an opponent more powerful than him is Tuesday.
For Samus, it's her nightmare. And Team Ninja made a point of, her fears and PTSD can disable her armor.

[golentan]

Ugh... As a fan and long time player of both series, bringing Other M into the discussion is the equivalent of bringing in Wand of Gamelon...

[KillingAScarab]

Ugh... As a fan and long time player of both series, bringing Other M into the discussion is the equivalent of bringing in Wand of Gamelon...I disagree. I think it is more like bringing in Zelda: Wand of Gamelon and Zelda's Adventure. That way you have two different camera settings represented.

[Knaight]

You think it has to do with brute force because you missed the purpose of the test just as you continue to misunderstand me. Samus, for the first time, has to fight strategically in order to beat her opponent rather than just pumping missiles into it's face when it's mouth or skull is open as she does with every other enemy. The point of the ruin's test is for her to win by examining her target and using her recently obtained weapon to attack it's weak points during the proper times. Previously, the games only punished you for trying to brute force your way through things, which is why most people think Metroids are hard, but to get past the trial you had no other choice.

The Chozo trial for their greatest armor/weapon unlock is one of wisdom, and it's one that Samus doesn't even truly come to master until Other M, but unfortunately for her it's one every incarnation of Link mastered in a matter of minutes as part of his basic crash course.

Yeah, no. Both the Metroid and Zelda series are full of puzzles and puzzle bosses, and both of them tend to operate at comparable puzzle difficulties (really easy to pretty easy). Both also have plenty of bosses that can be reduced to hitting them repeatedly when they show a weak point. As far as the whole argument that Link's capability to beat down Dark Link compared to Samus's ability to beat down the SA-X and Dark Samus, it's worth noting that there are two ways to interpret it. One is that Link has an advantage because only he can think strategically while Samus can't. Another is that Dark Link has a disadvantage because he can't operate strategically compared to SA-X and Dark Samus. The second of these has a lot more support. Every time Dark Link shows up he immediately attacks link unrelentingly with a tiny fraction of Link's arsenal. SA-X meanwhile sabotaged the station to trap Samus, made a point of staging attacks where they had the advantage, and generally acted like an intelligent adversary.

[Kyberwulf]

So.... what you are saying is that Link is so easy to beat... he is pretty much just a common monster now?

[Prime32]

The Ruins Test wasn't a contest of power

You think it has to do with brute force because you missed the purpose of the test just as you continue to misunderstand me.
... :smallconfused:

[zimmerwald1915]

@Frozen_Feet when your comparison includes magical laser shooting turret is "less impressive" then mechanical laser shooting turret it's pretty obvious your results are skewed.
What are you talking about? Frozen_Feet put Zelda beamos on a rough par with Metroid security turrets.

[khadgar567]

No, but apparently the other way around works. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67o8SC6CRRo)
I need to start using blue text since it globally means i am sarcastic.

[georgie_leech]

I need to start using blue text since it globally means i am sarcastic.

If wasn't an objection, just a vaguely related excuse to post something I found neat. :smallbiggrin:

[Mato]

So.... what you are saying is that Link is so easy to beat... he is pretty much just a common monster now?That's a better rebuttal than Prime has presented.

Any maybe, Link's better than everyone else in his world by if you've played Hyrule Warriors you probably yelled at the console for every single NPC being helpless. :smallwink:



@Frozen_Feet when your comparison includes magical laser shooting turret is "less impressive" then mechanical laser shooting turret it's pretty obvious your results are skewed.What are you talking about? Frozen_Feet put Zelda beamos on a rough par with Metroid security turrets.

The "mid-tier" of Zelda villains includes armored knights strong enough to knock down stone pillars (darknuts), evil wizards capable of disappearing into thin air and conjuring fire and ice (wizrobes), glass eyes capable of shooting lazers, and the aforementioned Gorons.

There is no non-stupid principle under which these are less impressive than plated beetles, space pirates, magmoor serpents, security turrets or other "mid-tier" Metroid opponents.

[georgie_leech]

Yeah, "There is no non-stupid principle" is the key phrase there. In other words, they're equally impressive, and a scale that rates them otherwise is stupid.

[Frozen_Feet]

What are you talking about? Frozen_Feet put Zelda beamos on a rough par with Metroid security turrets.

I presumed he was merely paraphrasing my own point.

---

More commentary on various sub-topics of this thread:

Re: "Why would we presume Samus to not be good with a bow/other Zelda gadgets?"

Few important reasons. Few of these have to do with nature of Samus' armor:

1) it has direct uplink to her ship AI. (Most obvious throughout Prime series.)
2) its upgrades are information-based. (This is most obvious in Fusion, where she explicitly downloads them, and Echoes, where her ability to use Luminoth tech is related to her having a translation key for Luminoth holograms.)

Hence, while in her armor, even in the case Samus finds something she is not trained with, she can at least read the instruction manual and Wikipedia page on it.

While not in her armor, her access to such information is sharply reduced.

Some have to with Samus herself:

1) outside her suit, she's less strong than many incarnations of Link. For example, even in her armor we rarely see her pushing or pulling giant stone blocks or wrestling cow-sized goata.
2) we have no reason to think she has training in what are, in her setting, obsolete martial arts, because we never see her engaging in any.

Some have to do with Link's equipment. The bow is a very good example, actually:

1) drawing and firing a bow is very different from pulling the trigger of an armcannon
2) archery requires a lot more physical strength than firearm usage. Especially Link's bow must have high draw strength to do what we see it do.

Add all these together, and we could expect Samus to be a complete n00b with a bow.

However:

1) Huryle has plenty of archery ranges and games to practice with. So Samus could learn to use a bow the old-fashioned way: lots of practice.
2) both crossbows and firearms are possible with Hylian technology. So Samus could make herself one of those, or modify a Hookshot to shoot projectiles, to get a more familiar sort of weapon.
3) some pieces of equipment, like bombs, bombchus or the lantern, are very easy to use. Samus would have no trouble learning how to use those.

More generally, I think the cross-over for Samus changes quite a bit depending on how much of her existing character you retain. To give two examples:

Scenario A: Samus crashlands in Hyrule and loses all her gear, as she has a habit of doing. Luckily, the atmosphere is breathable and the people are human, so she'll not have much trouble fitting in, though people will loudly wonder about her round ears. Her first obstacle would be learning the language, which she could best do by joining a travelling troupe of gymnasts or dancers. That's what her own abilities are most suited for, and she already looks the part in her underoos.

I don't see Samus bothering with a sword or shield. Instead, like I suggested above, I think she'd get herself a crossbow and maybe bombs. She's less strong than Link, so I don't see her bothering with all those block puzzles. Instead, she will use her better gymnastic ability to climb and crawl around obstacles Link would lift, push or blast through.

Eventually, she'll want to fix her armor. Let's see... it's red and yellow... it curls up in a ball... it is associated with power... and it at least appears metallic, so the likeliest person to go to would be a blacksmith, and an explosives specialist for the weaponry.

Gee. Out of all Hyrule's peoples, who are associated with red and yellow, curl into balls, are associated with power and have a penchant for smithing and explosives? Yeah, it's the Gorons again.

So Samus collects a heap of rupees and orders herself a new, Goron-made power armor. It will have some familiar features, like resisting tremendous heat and turning into a ball. Of course, it's going to have some differences. It probably has way more emphasis on the "power", making her as strong as a Goron. And the Goron-ball has less emphasis on crawling through small spaces and more on rolling real fast and crushing your enemies. Bombs will likely have to carried by hand, but now Samus has the option of lugging around Goron powder kegs as replacement for power bombs.

Now she just has to outfit the armor with an arm crossbow, "spider boots" (magnetic iron boots) for walking on iron surfaces, and perhaps Zora-made scuba gear for underwater missions.

If she can't beat Ganon without the Master Sword, she will likely strap it on her arm and utilize its ability to shoot swordbeams to her advantage.

Scenario B: Samus is actually born in Hyrule, but her backstory follows similar steps to her real backstory. So she's an orpan whose home was ransacked by pirates led by an evil dragon, then adopted and raised by mysterious bird people.

The obvious choice for "mysterious bird people" are Rito, placing this Samus in Wind Waker era. She would start her journey from Dragonroost Island, learning to use grappling hook first and then earning her wings and the Pearl of Power from Valoo. Or maybe Valoo, turned evil by Ganondorf, is the dragon who destroyed her home and she will make armor out of his scales? Who knows.

Anyways, I think Samus's Rito-based upbringing and ability to fly would give her a different perspective on things compared to Link with his Hero of Time based upbringing. Maybe, given Rito evolved from Zora, some of her story would focus on learning how to swim and exploring ruins of the lost Zora civilization, similar to how original Samus explores ruins of the Chozos. I have a hard time seeing her wielding the Master Sword, I think the Bow and its magic arrows would make a better weapon for her. So she'd fly around shooting enemies with arrows. Underwater, she'd likely use a spear, as Rito and Zora seem to favor those. Maybe she'd make the Master Sword into a polearm?

[Prime32]

That's a better rebuttal than Prime has presented.Dude, no need to get snippy. That was not a rebuttal. That was me agreeing with you, saying that you are 100% right on that topic, always have been and always will be. You can't rebutt that I think you're right. :smallconfused:

[Kyberwulf]

Wow. Link has access to all his games, when he is master level. Different characters, and mastered all his abilities, unquestionably. Yet Samus power's are quibbled over each game? It doesn't matter when, how, or if the way she got her powers are inconsistent. The fact is she has them, in ONE Timeline. As ONE person. Link is being given the powers of so many people over so many games. In each one he is so inconsistent with each other game.

Link's skill is being HIGHLY overrated. All his gear is magical, so in essence. ANYONE could pick them up and do what he does with them. Two, his training is usually universally, hey kid, do something. His physical strength is being highly overrated too. It is so inconstant. In on instant he is pushing boulders 5 times the size as him, in the next instant he can barely damage a low-level minion.

Also, you are metagaming the situation so badly. Just because he can "Pick up" any weapon and use them expertly. Doesn't mean he is some magical uber warrior. It just means no one wants to play a game where the main character sucked so much. It doesn't mean he can use all items instantaneously. It just means the game had to stop the world to give the player time to do something. He is able to push certain rocks, in certain places because he has to do puzzles somehow. He doesn't routinely push rock anywhere he isn't allowed.

Also, I can't believe no one hasn't gone there yet, but I think I will. Seriously. A woman, doesn't have the muscle to draw a bow? Link is so much more powerful then Samus?

[Traab]

If link is so tough he can shove around giant boulders to solve puzzles, why cant he walk through bushes? How weak is his fireball power if only some bushes can be ignited? See this is why determining power levels by video games is so hard to truly nail down. Because you can easily make a case for the character being ungodly strong AND horrifically weak just by picking specific aspects of the game to work with.

[Frozen_Feet]

"A magical uber warrior" is exactly what Links are by end of their games. It is particularly asinine to argue against that.

And yes, for the umpteenth time, Links are strong. How many examples do I need to give you to get this incredibly obvious point across?

Nothing in my argumentation has anything to do with sex of any of these characters and everything to do with the fact that Links routinely demonstrate feats of physical strength where Samus does not. I even specifically noted Samus could learn how to shoot Link's bow simply by using the ample opportunities for practice which exist in nearly every Zelda game! Sheesh.

---

@Traab: that paradox is incredibly easy to solve: everyone knows that limited interaction with the environment is artefact of game engine limitations. That's why, when you want to extrapolate how video game characters would fare in a "real" environment, you look at those cases where they can interact with the environment and extrapolate those to cover all similar situations.

So Link's sword can hurt civilians, because it's a sword and we see it act like a sword against humanoid opponents, even though majority of Zelda games arbitrarily prevent him from wounding them. And Samus Aran's Plasma Beam can melt and weld metal because it's explicitly that hot and we see her melt and weld metal with it, even though the games arbitrarily prevent it from affecting waist-high metal railings.

Going the other way would be idiotic.

[Kyberwulf]

I like how Link gets this pass, where he can do certain things in the game at certain points. Mind you, that he can only do them there. Such as push a rock a certain distance. Then from the you can extrapolate all this insane strength. He can swing a sword, nowhere else it is really stated that he is trained. Or that he got his skills from a past life. He is being attributed some ftl movement that lets him dodge all her attacks. Yet it is explicitly stated that Samus is far beyond the best human standards. Yet we need proof that she can do anything. despite varying accounts that she is the best Bounty hunter, soldier, augmented human in the galaxy.

[Frozen_Feet]

I like how Link gets this pass, where he can do certain things in the game at certain points. Mind you, that he can only do them there. Such as push a rock a certain distance. Then from the you can extrapolate all this insane strength.

Sure, just like I extrapolate Samus Aran's ability to melt and weld metal, despite that she only does this in Metroid Prime 3.

To argue that Link is not strong requires massive selective ignorance of what he does in the games and how often he does so. For example, Twilight Princess Link can wrestle cow-sized goats and mountain trolls into submission, can walk around in iron boots heavy enough to resist storm winds, can swing a flail with an iron ball about 50 kg in weigh, can climb up ropes and iron chains while burdened by his gear, can swim across a lake fully clothed, can push and pull around stone cubes as tall as himself etc.

All of these things would require great physical strength to accomplish. Put together they make up a good portion of gameplay features of Twilight Princess. If you choose to ignore them because, say, the game doesn't allow you to flip a table in Hyrule town, you're putting game engine limitations before the actual character.


He can swing a sword, nowhere else it is really stated that he is trained.

Only true at the start of some games. As noted, Wind Waker Link is trained by a martial arts master and is awarded special recognition by him by the end; Ocarina of Time / Majora's Mask Link can likewise engage in swordsmanship test to gain recognition; Skyward Sword Link is a knight-in-training; Twilight Princess Link gets taught his sword skills by a ghost of his ancestor; Spirit Tracks Link, at the end of his game, can become a fighting instructor for Hyrule castle guard.

And beyond all that, we can actually look at how Link uses his sword and what he accomplishes it. To argue that Link is unskilled with a sword requires complete ignorance of that. Go split a log with a longsword with a single jumping swing and then come back to tell me how I'm wrong.


Or that he got his skills from a past life.

This is more or less explicit for Twilight Princess Link; for other Links, it's up in the air. It is also irrelevant, because knowing how Link got his skills is not important when we know he has them.


He is being attributed some ftl movement that lets him dodge all her attacks.

Who is doing that? Please tell me so I can call them the idiot they are.


Yet it is explicitly stated that Samus is far beyond the best human standards. Yet we need proof that she can do anything. despite varying accounts that she is the best Bounty hunter, soldier, augmented human in the galaxy.

Can you quantify "best augmented human" absent of other proof? How much does Samus deadlift? Bench press? What's her reaction time? IQ? Oxidization factor of her blood?

Vague statements like that are not useful for judging a character without some demonstration of what they mean in practice. From the games, we do know she can, without her suit, jump her own height, wall jump and pull herself up a ledge, so she is on the level of a world-class gymnast. But we also know she needs a strength upgrade to pull herself up a ledge while in her full suit, so she can't be tremendously strong.

Or the short version: OF COURSE WE NEED PROOF.

[zimmerwald1915]

can walk around in iron boots heavy enough to resist storm winds
Not to mention lift his iron-booted feet when they're magnetically attached to a wall or ceiling, with enough force to keep him1 from falling to the ground.

1 I don't count his gear, besides his sword, shield, and whatever he's carrying openly, because it's effectively weightless in his pouch (the fact that the iron boots only sink him while he has them equipped shows as much), but an interesting question that has a bearing on Link's strength comes to mind. Can Link walk on walls using the iron boots, while carrying the ball and chain? I'd check, but my console's long since broken.


Twilight Princess Link gets taught his sword skills by a ghost of his ancestor
Y'know, Rusl might just continue on as a shade after death himself, considering how little recognition he gets. When he sees Link off near the beginning of Twilight Princess, he has this line:

"The time has come! Well, Link... Can I at least interest you in one serious sword lesson once you return from Hyrule? You have talent with a blade. If you were to get proper instruction, I bet you could be a very skilled swordsman. You can let me know once you return, but I want you to give it some serious consideration..."

From this, it is easy to glean that while that Link had not had "serious... proper instruction," he had at least some coaching in bladework before his game started. Enough to show his "talent."

[KillingAScarab]

To argue that Link is not strong requires massive selective ignorance of what he does in the games and how often he does so. For example, Twilight Princess Link can wrestle cow-sized goats and mountain trolls into submission, can walk around in iron boots heavy enough to resist storm winds, can swing a flail with an iron ball about 50 kg in weigh, can climb up ropes and iron chains while burdened by his gear, can swim across a lake fully clothed, can push and pull around stone cubes as tall as himself etc.

All of these things would require great physical strength to accomplish. Put together they make up a good portion of gameplay features of Twilight Princess. If you choose to ignore them because, say, the game doesn't allow you to flip a table in Hyrule town, you're putting game engine limitations before the actual character.Twilight Princess has lots of cool things. If I remember correctly, his ox-wrangling is related to having a sumo wrestler mayor in his village (Bo must have lost the mayoral race for Metro City (http://oldskooled.comicgenesis.com/archive.html?date=20051103)). So, Link is quite fit, but he is also skilled at redirecting his opponent's force against them. His sumo moves aren't enough for Gor Coron; you need the iron boots to continue the plot because it isn't cheating if you're a protagonist. 'course, strength doesn't mean anything when this should mean his bones snap, because the iron boots are supposedly over four times his weight in that game (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Boots#Weight).

Yeah, throw physics out the window. :smalltongue:

[zimmerwald1915]

because it isn't cheating if you're a protagonist.
Or part of a minor NPC's backstory.

[Frozen_Feet]

Twilight Princess has lots of cool things. If I remember correctly, his ox-wrangling is related to having a sumo wrestler mayor in his village (Bo must have lost the mayoral race for Metro City (http://oldskooled.comicgenesis.com/archive.html?date=20051103)). So, Link is quite fit, but he is also skilled at redirecting his opponent's force against them. His sumo moves aren't enough for Gor Coron; you need the iron boots to continue the plot because it isn't cheating if you're a protagonist. 'course, strength doesn't mean anything when this should mean his bones snap, because the iron boots are supposedly over four times his weight in that game (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Boots#Weight).

Yeah, throw physics out the window. :smalltongue:

Or you accept the feat at face value and accept that Link is superhumanly tough, because the statement "his bones should snap" is based on the premise that his bones are of ordinary strength. Yet this is a guy who can also survive falling off a mountain cliff or being shot out of a cannon.

[KillingAScarab]

Or you accept the feat at face value and accept that Link is superhumanly tough, because the statement "his bones should snap" is based on the premise that his bones are of ordinary strength. Yet this is a guy who can also survive falling off a mountain cliff or being shot out of a cannon.While Link is a Hylian, and for all I know they have metal bones, the prospect seems extremely unlikely since nothing known develops metal bones naturally (http://www.materialstoday.com/mechanical-properties/news/why-are-your-bones-not-made-of-steel/). At the least, they have bones (and equipment) which are extremely weakly affected in a magnetic field. The iron boots wouldn't be the gating mechanism for the Goron Mines ceiling puzzles to begin with, otherwise.
...
Now I want a team-up between non-Silver Age Magneto and Link.

[georgie_leech]

While metal bones would be one way for them to be stronger, I really don't see how 'Link's bones aren't metal, therefore they aren't stronger,' is supposed to be a valid argument. :smallconfused:

[Frozen_Feet]

Speculating what materials Link's body would have to be made of to do what he does is fascinating, but besides the point.

We do not know, and the games do not provide enough information to figure it out. Just like we don't know what principle Samus Aran's armor uses to turn her into morph ball and back, or how in blazing fires of Hell she can perceive her surroundings in 3D environment to do what she does in the Prime series.

In any case, when we know what a character is capable of, not knowing how they are capable of it is no reason to dismiss such feats.

[Knaight]

And beyond all that, we can actually look at how Link uses his sword and what he accomplishes it. To argue that Link is unskilled with a sword requires complete ignorance of that. Go split a log with a longsword with a single jumping swing and then come back to tell me how I'm wrong.

We could, but we probably shouldn't. Doing this is how you get to the conclusion that Link is not in fact particularly skilled, and while he has some fancy acrobatic stunts they're tied to an oddly sluggish and imprecise sword style devoid of non-shield blocking, devoid of winding, devoid of meaningfully aggressive shield use, etc. We could conclude that he only succeeds because while he's bad his opponents are so incredibly lousy that he doesn't need to be half decent, with it being downright routine that they manage less than one strike attempt per second of aggressive fighting.

Alternately, we could interpret that as more reflective of video game controls, programming limitations, and playability concerns. Link has a large vertical strike, a large horizontal strike, and a large stab because those attacks show up well on a screen, are visually distinct, and are easy to aim with the controls available. They also look powerful, whereas showing something with more finesse is likely to only count for much among people who have at least some subject matter expertise to begin with. Taking the attacks in the gameplay as indicative of the sum of Link's swordsmanship just doesn't make sense.


Or part of a minor NPC's backstory.
The bit about the boots being much heavier than Link wouldn't apply to the mayor. The mayor was not a small guy.

[Rakaydos]

The bit about the boots being much heavier than Link wouldn't apply to the mayor. The mayor was not a small guy.

Also, boots are magic. If they are only heavy (and magnetic) when link's weight is on that foot, link doesnt need to be nearly so strong.

[Chives]

Alternately, we could interpret that as more reflective of video game controls, programming limitations, and playability concerns. Link has a large vertical strike, a large horizontal strike, and a large stab because those attacks show up well on a screen, are visually distinct, and are easy to aim with the controls available. They also look powerful, whereas showing something with more finesse is likely to only count for much among people who have at least some subject matter expertise to begin with. Taking the attacks in the gameplay as indicative of the sum of Link's swordsmanship just doesn't make sense.


We could use Link's Soul Caliber moveset for this, there's quite a bit of information there. It would also serve as a good standard for what Link would get if he's in a different dimension.

[Knaight]

We could use Link's Soul Caliber moveset for this, there's quite a bit of information there. It would also serve as a good standard for what Link would get if he's in a different dimension.

We could, but there's a lot of the same concerns there. That moveset is intentionally designed to both be visually distinct to someone looking at the screen, to be controlled by a player with a controller, and to have moves slow enough that a quick opponent can react to and counter them while still dealing with the various controller and screen induced delays. The safe bet would be that we can assume that Link is a highly competent swordsman by virtue of winning fights against groups of competent warriors on a pretty routine basis and that the details are unknown but likely reflect more skill than is shown in the moves. What the moves do tell us is that we can assume a style based on overwhelming opponents with speed and aggression.

[Chives]

We could, but there's a lot of the same concerns there. That moveset is intentionally designed to both be visually distinct to someone looking at the screen, to be controlled by a player with a controller, and to have moves slow enough that a quick opponent can react to and counter them while still dealing with the various controller and screen induced delays. The safe bet would be that we can assume that Link is a highly competent swordsman by virtue of winning fights against groups of competent warriors on a pretty routine basis and that the details are unknown but likely reflect more skill than is shown in the moves. What the moves do tell us is that we can assume a style based on overwhelming opponents with speed and aggression.

But this also applies to Samus and won't produce measurable results for either of them.

[Knaight]

But this also applies to Samus and won't produce measurable results for either of them.

It applies a lot less to Samus, if only because of projectile weaponry generally being easier to handle in a game than the intricacies of melee (although there are still relevant things here, Samus has the flexibility to use cover a lot better than the controls tend to allow). This just means we have no direct data instead of useless direct data though; it's not any more of a problem.

[Chives]

It applies a lot less to Samus, if only because of projectile weaponry generally being easier to handle in a game than the intricacies of melee (although there are still relevant things here, Samus has the flexibility to use cover a lot better than the controls tend to allow). This just means we have no direct data instead of useless direct data though; it's not any more of a problem.

Could we use the cutscenes from Smash then? that would provide a crossover universe with consistent laws and the lack of players means that the attacks come from the characters, instead of requiring visual distinctness to help the player along.

[Knaight]

Could we use the cutscenes from Smash then? that would provide a crossover universe with consistent laws and the lack of players means that the attacks come from the characters, instead of requiring visual distinctness to help the player along.

That also involves a universe where the characters are designed to be the same power because it's a fighting game and they have to be, and that's before we get into the living toys/trophies thing. There's really not a good source here - working off sources of what fights they've been in and how they did in them works much better.

[Chives]

That also involves a universe where the characters are designed to be the same power because it's a fighting game and they have to be, and that's before we get into the living toys/trophies thing. There's really not a good source here - working off sources of what fights they've been in and how they did in them works much better.

But that brings us back to the problem earlier on: One character is a Space merc with missiles and plasma weaponry while the other is a sword and shield fighter.

[Frozen_Feet]

... which is not an actual problem because, for the umpteenth time, Zelda games and Metroid games have enemies doing similar, sometimes identical, things.

[zimmerwald1915]

The bit about the boots being much heavier than Link wouldn't apply to the mayor. The mayor was not a small guy.
The boots are more than four times heavier than Link. Bo is almost certainly not. It stands to reason that the boots are heavier than Bo to some extent. There's also this dialogue from Bo:

"Strong as you are, though, you can't hope to beat the Gorons wrestlin' with power alone. Those Gorons are made of rock! Naw, the secret to beatin' the Gorons...is locked away in that chest. Take it with you, lad.

Go on, lad. Open the chest.



Hey, hang on! Wait! You've gotta defeat the Gorons, right? Well, you're not going to do it without this little secret of mine!

[Link finds the Iron Boots in the chest]

You can probably tell, those boots are made of iron, lad. [i]Whoever wears 'em won't easily be pushed around...even by a Goron. If you're fixin' to fight a Goron, be sure to wear those boots. ...Let's be square, though, lad: You can't ever tell ANYONE about those boots! 'Specially Renado!"

And this dialogue, from Renado:

"Are you trying to reach the Gorons of Death Mountain? It is far too dangerous, Link! They recognize only strength! A normal person could never persuade them... But...I do know one person who was able to best them and earn their trust... His name is Bo. You may know him as the mayor of your hometown, Ordon."

We are clearly meant to infer that any human-goron sumo matchup is hopelessly one-sided without the iron boots. Thus, they must confer some benefit to just about anybody.

[acheter]

So Samus is clearly better at range however the mirror shield kind of renders any ranged attacks basically useless so we don't need to worry about that.

[Lord Raziere]

But that brings us back to the problem earlier on: One character is a Space merc with missiles and plasma weaponry while the other is a sword and shield fighter.

Hm.

Well lets try this:
Link is a melee fighter
Samus is a ranged fighter.

On a neutral field, with no obstacles, the ranged fighter will most probably win. No matter how fast Link runs, an experienced ranged fighter will always train to fire off their shots as fast as possible and any ranged attack will fly faster than any human can run. Link, even at his fastest can't run faster than any ranged attack.

But wait, Link has a mirror shield that reflects energy attacks back at things.

But wait, Samus has missiles, which a mirror shield wouldn't help against, since unlike other projectiles that can bounce off back at octoroks or witches, they are powered by rocketry and explode when they hit stuff. So he can't deflect missiles like he can say deflect nuts or energy bolts, thats just not logical. I mean, I think there has been games where Link hiding behind his shield protected him from explosions, but never deflecting explosives, y'know?

So really, it would be a standoff, with Samus firing missiles and Link hiding behind his shield to block them. At least at first. To block with his shield, Link needs to stand still- this is pretty consistent across incarnations. Samus can fire off her ranged attacks while moving, and could say simply attack from a different angle. So Samus wins.

[zimmerwald1915]

To block with his shield, Link needs to stand still- this is pretty consistent across incarnations.
I'm pretty sure that limitation's been overcome in more recent installments. I remember being able to move while shielding in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, and possibly A Link Between Worlds too, though my memory of that game is much fuzzier.

[Frozen_Feet]

So Samus is clearly better at range however the mirror shield kind of renders any ranged attacks basically useless so we don't need to worry about that.

Not "any ranged attack". Only beam weapons. Even if Link's shield can block a direct hit from a missile, Samus can shoot at the ground and catch him in the explosion. Seeker Missiles might even be able to circle around Link's shield.

@Raziere: it's actually more common for Link to be able to move with his shield up than not. In several games, such as Zelda, Zelda II: Adventure of Link and Link to the Past, keeping his shield up is his default stance. In the 3D games, he crouches and stops to block only when he is not locked on to an opponent.

Also, Link is not a "melee fighter". He uses bows, boomerangs, thrown bombs, hookshots and magic wands almost as much. If he can't get to fencing distance, he will use those. Notably, being dragged by a hookshot is faster than Samus Aran's usual run speed, so if there's a tree or other attaching point for it, Link can use that to close distance.

Because of this, there is no surefire win strategy for Samus, expect maybe using her superior jumping ability or just calling her spaceship to fly away. Samus with a Speed Booster has greater top speed than Link, but she needs an unobstructed runway of few dozen meters, making that unusable in some terrains and giving Link an opportunity to hit her and screw her start-up phase.

Instead of trying to keep distance, it might even be better for Samus to morph into a ball and roll around Link, laying Power Bombs to blast him. At least untill Link responds in kind by using Din's Fire or Quake Medallion.

EDIT: though it can be noted that Samus can strafe faster, has more ammo and faster firing rate, so in a gunfight she clearly has an advantage.

[Kyberwulf]

The reason I keep bringing up the fact that Link is a different person in most of his games, is that people keep trying to point out inconsistencies in her game.

Take for example. Moving large stones. In most cases I have seen. They are part of a puzzle. So they must be made to be moved easier. The same way a bookcase will swing open when you pull a lever. Just because we see him push things, doesn't equate to strength. He hardly exhibits any other strength based feats standard to those characters. Such as being able to jump obscenely large distances. We never see Link do the Devil May Cry/God of War's block a obviously larger and strong opponent and hold him off.

No Link's way of doing things is to dodge until he can get the one shot on a weakness to bring someone down. This isn't the way of someone who has the kind of strength people are claiming. All of course, he has so much magical gear that it skews the results of what we can deduce of his abilities. In short. It makes everything Link does, inconsistent. The fact he is the sum of so many Links. Makes him... Inconsistent. If you want to use all of Link's abilities, you don't just get the good. For all the amazing things Link is, he also has a lot of crap to him. For example need I remind you of the Link Cartoon.

[Red Fel]

Take for example. Moving large stones. In most cases I have seen. They are part of a puzzle. So they must be made to be moved easier. The same way a bookcase will swing open when you pull a lever. Just because we see him push things, doesn't equate to strength. He hardly exhibits any other strength based feats standard to those characters. Such as being able to jump obscenely large distances. We never see Link do the Devil May Cry/God of War's block a obviously larger and strong opponent and hold him off.

Then you get into all the times he lifts a boulder the size of several people. Which is a pretty clear "strength based feat."


No Link's way of doing things is to dodge until he can get the one shot on a weakness to bring someone down. This isn't the way of someone who has the kind of strength people are claiming. All of course, he has so much magical gear that it skews the results of what we can deduce of his abilities. In short. It makes everything Link does, inconsistent. The fact he is the sum of so many Links. Makes him... Inconsistent. If you want to use all of Link's abilities, you don't just get the good. For all the amazing things Link is, he also has a lot of crap to him. For example need I remind you of the Link Cartoon.

Which is precisely why we decided to choose a baseline gear layout. A list of his most commonly-used items, to better establish his abilities.

We do the same thing with her, you recall, because hers vary between games as well.

As an aside, we can't define Link's combat strategy as "dodge until you can get in a good shot," because that's basically every action game ever, Metroid included.

[georgie_leech]

Point of order, we do see Links clash directly with much bigger monsters. See: pulling Argorok out of the sky instead of just letting go of his claw shots, blocking the giant swords wielded by Ganon in OoT, and Wolf Link being strong enough to not go flying back when Beast Ganon charges full speed into him.

[golentan]

Honestly, if we're going both characters at full power, end of game mode, I think it might fall to samus in terms of Endurance and Mobility. 15 energy tanks is a lot more hits she can tank than 20 hearts is for link (comparable attacks by enemies in the games that I've looked at do half a heart of damage to link, and 5-10 damage to Samus, I.E. minimum 40 attacks to drop full power link and minimum 150 to drop full power samus, meaning he'd need 3 fairy bottles to tank an equivalent amount of damage), she can and usually does fire while moving evasively, enabling her to wait for link to attack and then fire before he can go defensive again, and unlike him she never runs out of ammo for her ranged attacks, something which is only true of hookshot and boomerang for him, both of which are more limited range, and depending on what beam weapons she has available she might not need ammo for her higher power weapons either. Fighting her at range in most games/with most weapons precludes the use of his shield, closing to close range runs the risk of an evasive countershot, and she can keep shooting and dodging for days, and she has more general mobility items at her disposal to buy herself time to think(double jump, grapple beam, speed boost, morph ball options, Screw Attack, all of which but the Grapple Beam require no real environmental factors to give her at least some mobility boost, while most of link's mobility items like the hookshot are dependent on the presence of something to grab onto).

I get that Link has more general options for how to carry out the fight, but the fact is he can't use them all at once, and attacking ALWAYS makes him vulnerable to a counterattack with a few exception of limited use, like Din's Fire. He can't use the fairy bow and the mirror shield, because he doesn't have enough hands. He can turtle up, but if he wants to win he must make himself vulnerable, and Samus can punish him for doing so ruthlessly. The only exception is if we do allow game breaker combos, like the aforementioned Chateau Romani/Nayru's Love combo, which... so many reasons no.

And allowing him to turtle assumes that Samus can't use the Grapple Lasso on his shield as a guard break. Granted, it's not one of her iconics, but it is a thing which seems to have been developed specifically for dealing with enemies with reflective shields.

[Knaight]

Not "any ranged attack". Only beam weapons. Even if Link's shield can block a direct hit from a missile, Samus can shoot at the ground and catch him in the explosion. Seeker Missiles might even be able to circle around Link's shield.

Even beam weapons are sketchy. The mirror shield hasn't even consistently worked on energy attacks - it reflects light well, and it consistently reflects magical blasts. That doesn't line up with Samus's weapons in all incarnations - the plasma is presumably a hot gas, the wave beam often explicitly phases through barriers, etc. Link's likely much better off trying to dodge than to block.

[Mato]

So it can be said this is a really close fight, each one has a counter to the other's attempted tactics with pros & cons counterbalancing each other.

Let's trim the rule set some. We're going to go with 100 points of Samas's energy is the equivalent of one heart and use the SNES damage figures from both games as the standard. In one hour the entire place will explode and the only way to leave is by killing their opponent.

Samus
Beams: Power 20, ice 30, spazer 40, wave 50, plasma 150, combined 300, most combos deal 300.
Explosives: missile 100, super missile 300, bomb 30, power bombs 200.
Other: shinespark 200, screw attack 2,000, charged beams deal x3, diffusion missiles deal x5.

Link
Sword: golden deals 8 hearts, beams deal 1 (lttp's nerf), spin/jump attacks deal x1.5 (skyward's nerf).
Items: boomerang 1/2, bombs 2, hammer 4, arrows 2, fire/ice arrows x2 (or 4), fire/ice rods 4, misc rods 1.
1-hit-kills: medallions rescaled to 20 & 100ft range that requires line of sight, light/silver arrows 8.

And that is in full-scale meaning it does not take into account their defensive bonuses. I like this scale too, it respects Link's close-quarters ability by having him deal more damage but all of his ranged options either deal significantly less than Samus's or they cost some of his very valuable mp. On Samus's end over all her attacks deal less but she has a ranged advantage and when investing into a charge attack she simply deals more (beam deals 900 vs the sword's 8). Their nukes even balance their weaknesses, Link can invoke a medallion as a ranged attack and if pulled close Samus can try a screw attack.

Terrain will be RWBY style with an open center field, a lost wood's like area wrapped around half of it with a more Zebes-like hollow volcano taking the other half. The Metroid side allows for a lot of platforming, ball-sized short cuts, is heated to it requires adaptions, contains lava on it's lowest level, and despite being rough terrain looking terrain it's mostly smooth allowing for easy running when applicable. The Zelda side is mostly level but contains low cobblestone ruins and tree roots sticking out of the ground, a 100ft deep lake with a small series of twisting tunnels, and of course lots of trees with little-to-no undergrowth for concealment through you could hide in the canopy. The open area is simply a 100ft wide octagon and they start at the edges of it with their respective terrain behind them.

Other minor rules include Link's reflective shields can block, but not reflect, any wave-enhanced beam. In return he loses his ability to block larger explosions such as power bombs and super missiles. Damage prevention is capped at 3/4 for both sides. The no-infinite rule manifests in ways such as Samus's screw attack can be blocked and interrupted and Link is limited to four bottles, single magic upgrade, and no invincibility items. Limited recovery on both sides is allowed such as shinespark and blue potions but no concentration, regeneration, or slashing bushes for hearts. The magical clock and all other forms of time control are outright banned. Samas's energy lasso can rip away Link's shield(s) until he can pick them up again but in return his Hookshot works on her either pulling him close or if 'heavy' pulling her towards him. And I can update this later if I missed anything.

[Rakaydos]

https://www.metroid2002.com/3/techniques_crystal_flash.php

Samus' s Crystal Flash ability.

[Mato]

Samus' s Crystal Flash ability.I know.

Samus using concentration or crystal flash in response to Link drinking a red potion also seems sort of fair through the devil is in the details.

And some of the details is Samus has more life, 20 main & 4 reserve, compared to Link but Crystal Flash takes time and can dangerously kill her. In Super, the only game it appears in, she takes contact damage from any enemy walking into her for each frame which can result in near instant death or significant recovery loss. Finally, due to the no infinite rule she has a 50 power bomb limit which prevents her from flashing more than five times which also means it becomes a limited method of healing allowing it.

Link has less life if you interpret the great fairy blessings as defensive boosts. But his potions only take a second to use and provide instant life and even magic recovery. Finally his bottle count is, well I suppose I glossed over that. Technically his highest limit is seven which is pretty excessive. Let's go with a limit of 4 healing-related potions, his typical limit in other games, since they recover his arsenal too.