5e Swordmage Class Request

[NightDweller]

First of all: I know what the eldritch knight is.

Second of all: Does anyone know of a good 5e swordmage class or would like to assist me in making one?

[Seekergeek]

Well I guess a good starting place would be to figure out what you mean by swordmage. Between the EK, the bladesinger, the bladelock, the paladin and the valor or blades bard I feel like most iterations of the concept are covered. Even the arcane trickster could potentially fill the roll. So, yeah, what do you imagine a swordmage to be that these classes aren't?

Edit: I forgot about the favoured soul sorcerer. That potentially belongs on the list too, I suppose.

[NightDweller]

Well I guess a good starting place would be to figure out what you mean by swordmage. Between the EK, the bladesinger, the bladelock, the paladin and the valor or blades bard I feel like most iterations of the concept are covered. Even the arcane trickster could potentially fill the roll. So, yeah, what do you imagine a swordmage to be that these classes aren't?

Edit: I forgot about the favoured soul sorcerer. That potentially belongs on the list too, I suppose.

Have you played or read the 4e class called the swordmage?

[Rowan Wolf]

Which build of Swordmage, I kind of remember them playing fairly differently?

[DivisibleByZero]

If you don't like the EK, just swap the Paladin spell list with the Sorcerer spell list and change the fluff.
If not that, then start from scratch and brew up the entire class. Or do a search. There are tons of homebrewed Swordmages out there.

[NightDweller]

If you don't like the EK, just swap the Paladin spell list with the Sorcerer spell list and change the fluff.
If not that, then start from scratch and brew up the entire class. Or do a search. There are tons of homebrewed Swordmages out there.

.....sigh....

1) A swordmage is a type of gish but not all gish are swordmages.

2) I presented homebrewing as a possibility in the OP so thanks for repeating my own words back to me.

3) I already did and was not satisfied.

[NightDweller]

Which build of Swordmage, I kind of remember them playing fairly differently?

The swordmage was a specific class in 4e.

It had three main builds based on its aegis options and I simply want to find or make a class which is a swordmage that those three builds as subclasses with possibly one or two more at a later date.

[Steampunkette]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design

You'll want to use this Subforum.

There are homebrew request threads, a dozen or more swordmages, and other options.

Enjoy.

[NightDweller]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design

You'll want to use this Subforum.

There are homebrew request threads, a dozen or more swordmages, and other options.

Enjoy.

Thank you very much for your help.

It is greatly appreciated.

[DivisibleByZero]

.....sigh....

1) A swordmage is a type of gish but not all gish are swordmages.

2) I presented homebrewing as a possibility in the OP so thanks for repeating my own words back to me.

3) I already did and was not satisfied.

.....sigh.....

There are literally THOUSANDS of homebrewed Swordmages out there for you to find on the Internet. You don't have to be a jerk about it.

[NightDweller]

.....sigh.....

There are literally THOUSANDS of homebrewed Swordmages out there for you to find on the Internet. You don't have to be a jerk about it.

Sorry if my blunt nature seems to come across that way.

[djreynolds]

What specific power or ability are you looking for?

Cast and attack? Attack and cast?

Its difficult to make swordmage in 5E, because spells usually cost an entire action.

Now there are 2 exceptions war magic and improved war magic.

Are you looking for a rider effects on your weapon?

An EK/paladin could provide this with multiple attacks coupled with elemental weapon spell, absorb elements, and smiting. This way you could combine aspects of you reaction and action, and have some bonus action smite spells also.

Its not the way, but a way

Its not perfect and obviously not what you are looking for, but it could give at least the flavor of what you might want.

Sorry.

Also the immortal mystic, its kinda cool.

[D.U.P.A.]

Have you played or read the 4e class called the swordmage?

I did. However there is major difference between 4e and 5e. In 4e you could attack with whatever main stat was, even if that meant you attacked with your mental stat, regardless of the weapon, which some people found odd. AC could be calculated of intelligence too, so you could safely dump dexterity and have skyhigh AC even without armor. Then there were no spells in 5e way, but powers you used when attacking with your sword. Now the stats are set accordingly your play style and you do not max primary stat and then put everything else to the secondary stat. So basically if you want to fight without armor, you will have to invest into dexterity (as in 4e was one of your dumpstats) to get a decent AC, which will most probably require you to use finesse weapons. I think Bladesinger is your closest bet, although is restricted to elves only (however you can ask if DM lift this limitation).

[rollingForInit]

Could you describe what kind of actions you'd want a swordmage to have? What are you expecting from it? I don't mean mechanically, just what you want it to be able to accomplish beyond "wield a sword and use magic".

[djreynolds]

I did. However there is major difference between 4e and 5e. In 4e you could attack with whatever main stat was, even if that meant you attacked with your mental stat, regardless of the weapon, which some people found odd. AC could be calculated of intelligence too, so you could safely dump dexterity and have skyhigh AC even without armor. Then there were no spells in 5e way, but powers you used when attacking with your sword. Now the stats are set accordingly your play style and you do not max primary stat and then put everything else to the secondary stat. So basically if you want to fight without armor, you will have to invest into dexterity (as in 4e was one of your dumpstats) to get a decent AC, which will most probably require you to use finesse weapons. I think Bladesinger is your closest bet, although is restricted to elves only (however you can ask if DM lift this limitation).

Could he do this with the immortal mystic?

[Lord_Jord]

Sorry if my blunt nature seems to come across that way.
I just want to say, and I did nearly not say anything at all, and I probably wouldn't have, had your apology actually seemed somewhat sincere, that just because you have a "blunt nature" does not give you reason to treat people like that. Especially someone trying to help you, regardless of whether you've heard or thought of their ideas before, regardless of whether you've even stated the idea before. Sometimes the best ideas come from retreading old ground.
.... Sigh ....
But then again, I guess this isn't a "learn social skillz forum"...
As to your post, I have never played 4e so I don't know the class, but the gish build I have been happiest with has been the Sorcadin. And yes, I know, "All Swordmages are gishes, but not all gishes are swordmages"

[Arkhios]

I did. However there is major difference between 4e and 5e. In 4e you could attack with whatever main stat was, even if that meant you attacked with your mental stat, regardless of the weapon, which some people found odd. AC could be calculated of intelligence too, so you could safely dump dexterity and have skyhigh AC even without armor. Then there were no spells in 5e way, but powers you used when attacking with your sword. Now the stats are set accordingly your play style and you do not max primary stat and then put everything else to the secondary stat. So basically if you want to fight without armor, you will have to invest into dexterity (as in 4e was one of your dumpstats) to get a decent AC, which will most probably require you to use finesse weapons. I think Bladesinger is your closest bet, although is restricted to elves only (however you can ask if DM lift this limitation).

Considering the fact that the 4th edition Swordmage was introduced in D&D 4.0 Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, it does make a lot of sense that Bladesinger is in fact The Direct Successor of Swordmage, because the Bladesinger in 5th edition was introduced in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. Now, if you look past the editions, both books cover essentially the same thing: "A player's guide to Forgotten Realms", more or less. Likewise, both the Swordmage and Bladesinger (wizard) are mages who can wield a sword quite effectively.

As already mentioned by D.U.P.A. it's also mentioned in the SCAG, that while a Bladesinger is meant to be elf-only, a DM may lift the restriction. Even within Forgotten Realms, because every DM has the right to make their indvidual decisions regarding the lore of the Realms. Now, that won't be the case with Adventurer's League, but Adventurer's League is stupid anyway, so I wouldn't pay that too much attention.


If that's not convincing or satisfying enough, then maybe a homebrew conversion of a Swordmage from 4th edition to 5th edition might be best, indeed. If I may suggest, the homebrewed version could actually have Unarmored Defense calculated by: 10+Dex+Int, with a prerequisite that you must not wear any armor and hold anything in the other hand. Rest of it could be based upon warlock chassis, with the various different Aegises functioning much like Eldritch Invocations and the Pact Boon. Maybe, however, instead of spells like a warlock you'd tap into a different kind of reserves, much like ki powers for a monk. Since swordmage was categorized as a Defender, I would try and play that out into the class, and focus more on the defensive abilities rather than on pure damage.

[djreynolds]

I know its frustrating, but I promise you the Immortal. Your intelligence is used for most of the augmenting of your powers... the damage is too much, your DM may tone it down from 1d10 to maybe even 1d6. You have a healing factor based on intelligence and ac and skill checks. Lots of play.

And the psychic damage is easily changed to force or elemental.

Its the best canvas for the swordmage. Just google Psionics and Mystics and downloaded it from wizards

You heal yourself and others, it just costs Psi points, you have 64 at 10th. So many talents, etc.

Just fluff it with your table. Good luck

[CaptainSarathai]

Okay, so, I loved the Swordmage in 4e, but this is 5e now - it is very hard to make a balanced Sword Mage. Let's itemize it, eh?

1. Proficiencies and Basics
You're no longer proficient with specific weapons/armor. So I'd say for 5th that you're proficient with Light Armor and Martial Weapons.
The 4e is proficient with Will (Con) only. Since Con is a primary save, you need a secondary. A Swordmage's main skills are Int, Str, and Con. So I'd give Int Prof.
The skill choices from 4e are alright; Arcana, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidate
Hit Points are a D10 per level.

2. Class Features
SwordBond - EKs already have this, verbatim. Swordmage would probably get it at 1st level. Note that they are not proficient with any other Arcane Focus.
Swordmage Warding - can remain unchanged.

3. Sword Mage Aegis
This is what kills it. These options (Assault, Shielding, and Ensnarement) would be your subclasses, likely picked at 3rd level. The problem is that 2/3 make use of Teleport, and that is something that is practically non-existent in 5e. That's a major change from 4e. Teleporting an enemy is unheard of in 5e. There's also no straightforward rule for 'marking' in 5e, so your Aegis will have to be a "spell-like effect" which targets an enemy creature.

4. Power Source, and Powers
This is where it gets really complicated, but not necessarily impossible.
You obviously have an Arcane power source, so you're grabbing from the Wizard list. However, you likely don't have the whole list to choose from. You're also very likely a Half-Caster at most, because of the D10, Martial Weapons, and Warding. If you want Extra Attack, make that a 1/3 Caster. This would be incredibly unusual though, because Swordmages treat Casting as one of their primary abilities. You also need to decide how they will learn spells - either choose from a list like a Wizard, or learn a limited number like a Sorcerer. Personally, I'm voting for learning a limited number, to
a) differentiate them from EKs
b) reduce their power at bit more if they go Half-Caster

You'll then need to pick out your features. What do they get as they level by-class, and what do they get as they level by sub-class?
For this, I would go through one of the 4e Swordmage guides and start looking at the optimized Power choices - grab the Gold-tier stuff, as these are the things which defined the class, and each specific Aegis build.
'Daily' powers obviously recharge on a Long Rest
'Encounter' powers recharge on Short Rests
'At Will' is a power that can be used every turn. I would avoid these.
'Utility' will tell you how often they recharge.

The tricky part is that all three subclasses need to stay consistent. If you give Assault an Encounter Power at level3, then you should not give Ensnarement a Daily, and Shielding an At-Will. They should all get Encounter (or all the same).

5. PlayStyle
This is the absolute most impossible part of this build. Swordmages focused on casting spells as a sort of "rider" to a melee attack, kind of like Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade in 5e. There aren't many spells that do that. So, most likely, you're actually going to be creating a new spells for your list. I would essentially rename the various '___ Smite' spells from the Paladin, and leave it at that. Perhaps add in that at some point, Swordmages can cast spells with 'Range: Melee' and use a weapon attack (from their bonded weapon only) rather than rolling to hit. This means that the "offensive" spells on their list should be comprised of Wizard 'Touch' spells, the renamed 'Smite' spells, and GFB/BB.

With all that in front of us, I'll start trying to put something together. I just have a feeling that it's going to be an almost OP class, and will render the other Arcane "gish-type" options utterly obsolete.

[Vaz]

Sorry if my blunt nature seems to come across that way.

Please do not try to excuse your attitude as being anything other than rude.

[JellyPooga]

Between the EK, the bladesinger, the bladelock, the paladin and the valor or blades bard I feel like most iterations of the concept are covered. Even the arcane trickster could potentially fill the roll.

OP: I don't really get what you're looking for that one or a combination of these doesn't.

CaptainSarathai gives a pretty decent rundown of how you might homebrew a Swordmage, but largely speaking I'm not seeing anything he talks about that a Bladelock/Paladin or some other gish can't do. If it's just a matter of flavour...change the fluff. The tools are there to build the concept you want, just paste whatever fluff you want on top.

Remember that there is no "arcane" or "divine" magic in 5ed; it's all just "magic". If you want a guy who's good at casting spells but also decent in a fight, then plain old Wizard can do the job, let alone any of the above mentioned "gish" classes.

[Millstone85]

This is the absolute most impossible part of this build. Swordmages focused on casting spells as a sort of "rider" to a melee attack, kind of like Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade in 5e. There aren't many spells that do that. So, most likely, you're actually going to be creating a new spells for your list. I would essentially rename the various '___ Smite' spells from the Paladin, and leave it at that.4e also had the seeker class, whose shtick was casting spells as a rider to a ranged attack. I would ask if there really needed to be two classes and if the 5e swordmage couldn't take spells from the ranger as well as from the paladin. So now we have:
* Banishing Smite
* Blinding Smite
* Branding Smite
* Conjure Barrage
* Conjure Volley
* Cordon of Arrows
* Elemental Weapon
* Ensnaring Strike
* Flame Arrows
* Hunter's Mark
* Lightning Arrow
* Magic Weapon
* Searing Smite
* Staggering Smite
* Swift Quiver
* Thunderous Smite
* Wrathful Smite

I would then add the cantrips from SCAG and call it an interesting spell list to build a class around.

[j_spencer93]

I would think the bladesinger would do it, you even get int to ac that way. However I actually think the bladesinger originated in 3.5 at the latest.

[D.U.P.A.]

Considering the fact that the 4th edition Swordmage was introduced in D&D 4.0 Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, it does make a lot of sense that Bladesinger is in fact The Direct Successor of Swordmage, because the Bladesinger in 5th edition was introduced in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. Now, if you look past the editions, both books cover essentially the same thing: "A player's guide to Forgotten Realms", more or less. Likewise, both the Swordmage and Bladesinger (wizard) are mages who can wield a sword quite effectively.

As already mentioned by D.U.P.A. it's also mentioned in the SCAG, that while a Bladesinger is meant to be elf-only, a DM may lift the restriction. Even within Forgotten Realms, because every DM has the right to make their indvidual decisions regarding the lore of the Realms. Now, that won't be the case with Adventurer's League, but Adventurer's League is stupid anyway, so I wouldn't pay that too much attention.


If that's not convincing or satisfying enough, then maybe a homebrew conversion of a Swordmage from 4th edition to 5th edition might be best, indeed. If I may suggest, the homebrewed version could actually have Unarmored Defense calculated by: 10+Dex+Int, with a prerequisite that you must not wear any armor and hold anything in the other hand. Rest of it could be based upon warlock chassis, with the various different Aegises functioning much like Eldritch Invocations and the Pact Boon. Maybe, however, instead of spells like a warlock you'd tap into a different kind of reserves, much like ki powers for a monk. Since swordmage was categorized as a Defender, I would try and play that out into the class, and focus more on the defensive abilities rather than on pure damage.

4e handbook points out elven, genasi and human swordmages. Other races basically have no such class. Now genasi bladesingers are not an option even if the race restriction is lifted just because both race and subclass are in two different splatbooks. This leaves us only with humans, but for optimized builds, high elves are already the optimal race for this build.

As for unarmored armor, arcane classes already have their own type of unarmored defense, called Mage armor. You must know that a lot of class features are replaced with spells in this edition if possible. Hence classes unarmored defense features are given to classes that have no spellcasting abilities. Mage armor may not scale, but those classes usually have other support, like Shield spell.

Then about aegis and powers. The reason why it was played in that way in 4e, it was because 4e had no spells like other edition. Even a wizard was using powers in the same way fighter did. Swordmage should be casting spells just like wizard, not using chargeable powers by hitting with the blade. You must adapt the playstyle to 5e, abandoning 4e mentality.

[Citan]

First of all: I know what the eldritch knight is.

Second of all: Does anyone know of a good 5e swordmage class or would like to assist me in making one?
Hi!

If you are interesting in my work in progress, I could send you one archetype. ;)
It's a kind of mix between a Battlemaster (for short-rest abilities) and a Ranger (only basic Extra Attack + long-rest "spells"), although thematically centered on elemental spells and "empowered" weapon attacks. ;)

Otherwise, as other suggested, taking Paladin and tweaking spell list could be enough, couldn't it? I honestly don't remember 4e Swordmage enough...

[NightDweller]

Could you describe what kind of actions you'd want a swordmage to have? What are you expecting from it? I don't mean mechanically, just what you want it to be able to accomplish beyond "wield a sword and use magic".

I would like them to channel magic through their weapons and also use magic that is similarly focuses on combat.


I did. However there is major difference between 4e and 5e. In 4e you could attack with whatever main stat was, even if that meant you attacked with your mental stat, regardless of the weapon, which some people found odd. AC could be calculated of intelligence too, so you could safely dump dexterity and have skyhigh AC even without armor. Then there were no spells in 5e way, but powers you used when attacking with your sword. Now the stats are set accordingly your play style and you do not max primary stat and then put everything else to the secondary stat. So basically if you want to fight without armor, you will have to invest into dexterity (as in 4e was one of your dumpstats) to get a decent AC, which will most probably require you to use finesse weapons. I think Bladesinger is your closest bet, although is restricted to elves only (however you can ask if DM lift this limitation).

I would be okay with shifting the attack stat to Str instead of Int while letting Int cover the spells.


What specific power or ability are you looking for?

Cast and attack? Attack and cast?

Its difficult to make swordmage in 5E, because spells usually cost an entire action.

Now there are 2 exceptions war magic and improved war magic.

Are you looking for a rider effects on your weapon?

An EK/paladin could provide this with multiple attacks coupled with elemental weapon spell, absorb elements, and smiting. This way you could combine aspects of you reaction and action, and have some bonus action smite spells also.

Its not the way, but a way

Its not perfect and obviously not what you are looking for, but it could give at least the flavor of what you might want.

Sorry.

Also the immortal mystic, its kinda cool.

Thx for the advice but for me the fluff is more important than the mechanics.


Okay, so, I loved the Swordmage in 4e, but this is 5e now - it is very hard to make a balanced Sword Mage. Let's itemize it, eh?

1. Proficiencies and Basics
You're no longer proficient with specific weapons/armor. So I'd say for 5th that you're proficient with Light Armor and Martial Weapons.
The 4e is proficient with Will (Con) only. Since Con is a primary save, you need a secondary. A Swordmage's main skills are Int, Str, and Con. So I'd give Int Prof.
The skill choices from 4e are alright; Arcana, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidate
Hit Points are a D10 per level.

2. Class Features
SwordBond - EKs already have this, verbatim. Swordmage would probably get it at 1st level. Note that they are not proficient with any other Arcane Focus.
Swordmage Warding - can remain unchanged.

3. Sword Mage Aegis
This is what kills it. These options (Assault, Shielding, and Ensnarement) would be your subclasses, likely picked at 3rd level. The problem is that 2/3 make use of Teleport, and that is something that is practically non-existent in 5e. That's a major change from 4e. Teleporting an enemy is unheard of in 5e. There's also no straightforward rule for 'marking' in 5e, so your Aegis will have to be a "spell-like effect" which targets an enemy creature.

4. Power Source, and Powers
This is where it gets really complicated, but not necessarily impossible.
You obviously have an Arcane power source, so you're grabbing from the Wizard list. However, you likely don't have the whole list to choose from. You're also very likely a Half-Caster at most, because of the D10, Martial Weapons, and Warding. If you want Extra Attack, make that a 1/3 Caster. This would be incredibly unusual though, because Swordmages treat Casting as one of their primary abilities. You also need to decide how they will learn spells - either choose from a list like a Wizard, or learn a limited number like a Sorcerer. Personally, I'm voting for learning a limited number, to
a) differentiate them from EKs
b) reduce their power at bit more if they go Half-Caster

You'll then need to pick out your features. What do they get as they level by-class, and what do they get as they level by sub-class?
For this, I would go through one of the 4e Swordmage guides and start looking at the optimized Power choices - grab the Gold-tier stuff, as these are the things which defined the class, and each specific Aegis build.
'Daily' powers obviously recharge on a Long Rest
'Encounter' powers recharge on Short Rests
'At Will' is a power that can be used every turn. I would avoid these.
'Utility' will tell you how often they recharge.

The tricky part is that all three subclasses need to stay consistent. If you give Assault an Encounter Power at level3, then you should not give Ensnarement a Daily, and Shielding an At-Will. They should all get Encounter (or all the same).

5. PlayStyle
This is the absolute most impossible part of this build. Swordmages focused on casting spells as a sort of "rider" to a melee attack, kind of like Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade in 5e. There aren't many spells that do that. So, most likely, you're actually going to be creating a new spells for your list. I would essentially rename the various '___ Smite' spells from the Paladin, and leave it at that. Perhaps add in that at some point, Swordmages can cast spells with 'Range: Melee' and use a weapon attack (from their bonded weapon only) rather than rolling to hit. This means that the "offensive" spells on their list should be comprised of Wizard 'Touch' spells, the renamed 'Smite' spells, and GFB/BB.

With all that in front of us, I'll start trying to put something together. I just have a feeling that it's going to be an almost OP class, and will render the other Arcane "gish-type" options utterly obsolete.

I can think of several ways to use your advice in a way that could nerf the class. Thank you for your help.


Please do not try to excuse your attitude as being anything other than rude.

And your comment is what exactly?


OP: I don't really get what you're looking for that one or a combination of these doesn't.

CaptainSarathai gives a pretty decent rundown of how you might homebrew a Swordmage, but largely speaking I'm not seeing anything he talks about that a Bladelock/Paladin or some other gish can't do. If it's just a matter of flavour...change the fluff. The tools are there to build the concept you want, just paste whatever fluff you want on top.

Remember that there is no "arcane" or "divine" magic in 5ed; it's all just "magic". If you want a guy who's good at casting spells but also decent in a fight, then plain old Wizard can do the job, let alone any of the above mentioned "gish" classes.

That would not meet the aesthetics, flavor, or mechanics I am seeking. Like I said a being a swordmage is more than being a gish.


4e also had the seeker class, whose shtick was casting spells as a rider to a ranged attack. I would ask if there really needed to be two classes and if the 5e swordmage couldn't take spells from the ranger as well as from the paladin. So now we have:
* Banishing Smite
* Blinding Smite
* Branding Smite
* Conjure Barrage
* Conjure Volley
* Cordon of Arrows
* Elemental Weapon
* Ensnaring Strike
* Flame Arrows
* Hunter's Mark
* Lightning Arrow
* Magic Weapon
* Searing Smite
* Staggering Smite
* Swift Quiver
* Thunderous Smite
* Wrathful Smite

I would then add the cantrips from SCAG and call it an interesting spell list to build a class around.

I think that doing that may give the swordmage to much versatility.


I would think the bladesinger would do it, you even get int to ac that way. However I actually think the bladesinger originated in 3.5 at the latest.

The bladesinger is not exactly what I am looking for.


4e handbook points out elven, genasi and human swordmages. Other races basically have no such class. Now genasi bladesingers are not an option even if the race restriction is lifted just because both race and subclass are in two different splatbooks. This leaves us only with humans, but for optimized builds, high elves are already the optimal race for this build.

As for unarmored armor, arcane classes already have their own type of unarmored defense, called Mage armor. You must know that a lot of class features are replaced with spells in this edition if possible. Hence classes unarmored defense features are given to classes that have no spellcasting abilities. Mage armor may not scale, but those classes usually have other support, like Shield spell.

Then about aegis and powers. The reason why it was played in that way in 4e, it was because 4e had no spells like other edition. Even a wizard was using powers in the same way fighter did. Swordmage should be casting spells just like wizard, not using chargeable powers by hitting with the blade. You must adapt the playstyle to 5e, abandoning 4e mentality.

The swordmage traditions originated among eladrin (shielding), genasi (assaulting), and gith (ensnaring). Other races are not restricted in any way from learning these and it was common for humans, half-elves, and dragonborn to learn them as well.


Also I must do nothing, 5e is a game it is meant for entertainment, there is no reason it cannot be homebrewed to be made more entertaining.

Hi!

If you are interesting in my work in progress, I could send you one archetype. ;)
It's a kind of mix between a Battlemaster (for short-rest abilities) and a Ranger (only basic Extra Attack + long-rest "spells"), although thematically centered on elemental spells and "empowered" weapon attacks. ;)

Otherwise, as other suggested, taking Paladin and tweaking spell list could be enough, couldn't it? I honestly don't remember 4e Swordmage enough...

Thank you for the advice but it is definitely not what I am looking for.

[DanyBallon]

To OP:

I'm not familiar enough with 4e, even less with swordmage, but from all the ideas and possible solutions provided in the forums, I'm trying to understand why none of these fits your expectation of a Swordmage. Maybe, in order to get better constructive ideas, you could describe what make a swordmage to you.

I remember once trying to convert 3.5 beguiler to Pathfinder and throughout discussion, I cam to realised that I wasn't seeing the beguiler the same as other were, resulting in conflicting ideas for my conversion.

By identifying what are the defining characteristic features of the Swordmage for you, we will be in a better position to try and help you out homebrew a 5e Swordmage that will fit the fluff and mechanics you want.

[Millstone85]

I think that doing that may give the swordmage to much versatility.I really don't. First, it is still a very short and highly specialized spell list. Secondly, I was assuming that weapon attacks would use Str and Dex as normal, not Int or any other brainy stat.

Now, here is the sort of feature I would expect from a 5e swordmage.

Martial Focus
You can use any weapon as a spellcasting focus while you wield it.

Two-Weapon Casting
When you wield a light melee weapon in each hand, you can cast a cantrip as a bonus action if the cantrip includes a melee weapon attack. You do not add your ability modifier to the damage of the attack, unless that modifier is negative.

Great Weapon Casting
When you wield a melee weapon with two hands and cast a cantrip that includes a melee weapon attack, the attack deals an additional 1d8 cold, fire or lightning damage (your choice) on a hit.

[MrStabby]

I would also vote for a Paladin base. Vengeance would give you misty step for teleportation and the whole hitting things with spells feel from the smites. To add the arcane feel I would suggest a couple of levels of warlock - but whatever caster class you really want the spells from.

[Nifft]

I'm not familiar enough with 4e, even less with swordmage, but from all the ideas and possible solutions provided in the forums, I'm trying to understand why none of these fits your expectation of a Swordmage. Maybe, in order to get better constructive ideas, you could describe what make a swordmage to you. Not the OP but here's my take (copied from the other thread over in Homebrew) as a person who did play 4e:


What I recall of the Swordmage is...

Defender. This means:
- high HD,
- a mechanic which makes this PC a preferable target for at least one enemy, and
- some form of lockdown / battlefield control.

The latter was accomplished through melee spell-attack powers like Booming Blade and Lightning Lure, both of which have been ported to 5e as cantrips.

Teleports to enemy when the "preferable target" mechanic triggers. This means some new mechanic.

Arcane. This means spells, at least half-caster; spells attacks and DCs are based off Intelligence.


- - -

IMHO Eldritch Knight is not a valid substitute: the Swordmage uses cantrips at high level, and a regular Fighter's Str-based attack x4 is going to eclipse that. So the Swordmage needs something else to keep up at higher levels, and it must be something compatible with using melee weapon attack cantrips.

[DanyBallon]

Not the OP but here's my take (copied from the other thread over in Homebrew) as a person who did play 4e:


What I recall of the Swordmage is...

Defender. This means:
- high HD,
- a mechanic which makes this PC a preferable target for at least one enemy, and
- some form of lockdown / battlefield control.

The latter was accomplished through melee spell-attack powers like Booming Blade and Lightning Lure, both of which have been ported to 5e as cantrips.

Teleports to enemy when the "preferable target" mechanic triggers. This means some new mechanic.

Arcane. This means spells, at least half-caster; spells attacks and DCs are based off Intelligence.


- - -

IMHO Eldritch Knight is not a valid substitute: the Swordmage uses cantrips at high level, and a regular Fighter's Str-based attack x4 is going to eclipse that. So the Swordmage needs something else to keep up at higher levels, and it must be something compatible with using melee weapon attack cantrips.

So basically a "War Magic" like feature that comes earlier than 7th level, access to SCAG cantrips, some kind of "teleport" feature (would Arcane Charge, or Misty Steps, do the trick?), Int half-caster, and d10 HD, is that it?

Should they have access to range cantrip, and to utility spells?

What kind of armor do they have?

[Arkhios]

So basically a "War Magic" like feature that comes earlier than 7th level, access to SCAG cantrips, some kind of "teleport" feature (would Arcane Charge, or Misty Steps, do the trick?), Int half-caster, and d10 HD, is that it?

Half-casters don't seem to have a precedent access to cantrips, which might cause some issues. Then again, an Eldritch Knight (while it's a 1/3-caster) does get cantrips, so I really don't know. Personally, when I'm homebrewing I try to see if there is any precedency with some features - paladins and rangers not having cantrips is quite a remarkable sign.

[DanyBallon]

Half-casters don't seem to have a precedent access to cantrips, which might cause some issues. Then again, an Eldritch Knight (while it's a 1/3-caster) does get cantrips, so I really don't know. Personally, when I'm homebrewing I try to see if there is any precedency with some features - paladins and rangers not having cantrips is quite a remarkable sign.

I agree with you, I'm trying to do the same when homebrewing. I'm just trying to figureout comparative features that could be used build a swordmage

[The Shadowdove]

I was skeptical when I went 1 fighter / rest warlock..

But the build was actually really fun and full of stubby/Blasty memories.

[Nifft]

So basically a "War Magic" like feature that comes earlier than 7th level, access to SCAG cantrips, some kind of "teleport" feature (would Arcane Charge, or Misty Steps, do the trick?), Int half-caster, and d10 HD, is that it? Mmm... keep in mind that I'm giving you a high-level overview, not a comprehensive list of check-boxes which will fulfill all necessary criteria.

The SCAG cantrips were taken directly from the 4e Swordmage, yeah. It'll certainly need those.

Arcane Charge would be a good fit, except that it's on a Fighter, and Fighter overall is a bad fit.

Misty Step + Improved War Magic is also a good fit, except the attack should be with a cantrip. So alone, Misty Step is not really passing the bar.

I think half-caster is good, but maybe they're full-casters like a Bard, or Warlock casters with some at-will teleport Invocations. *shrug* Lots of ways to skin this cat.


Should they have access to range cantrip, and to utility spells? No and yes, respectively.


What kind of armor do they have? Light armor, plus if they fight with a one-handed weapon they get an Arcane Shield bonus (basically a benefit of War Caster but without costing a feat).

IIRC they were Int major, Dex & Con minor (but someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

[DanyBallon]

Mmm... keep in mind that I'm giving you a high-level overview, not a comprehensive list of check-boxes which will fulfill all necessary criteria.

The SCAG cantrips were taken directly from the 4e Swordmage, yeah. It'll certainly need those.

Arcane Charge would be a good fit, except that it's on a Fighter, and Fighter overall is a bad fit.

Misty Step + Improved War Magic is also a good fit, except the attack should be with a cantrip. So alone, Misty Step is not really passing the bar.

I think half-caster is good, but maybe they're full-casters like a Bard, or Warlock casters with some at-will teleport Invocations. *shrug* Lots of ways to skin this cat.

No and yes, respectively.

Light armor, plus if they fight with a one-handed weapon they get an Arcane Shield bonus (basically a benefit of War Caster but without costing a feat).

IIRC they were Int major, Dex & Con minor (but someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

Ok, the more I see it, it's pretty much a Bladesinger from SCAG, but with more HP, and some kind of teleport when attacking... I'm I right?

[Nifft]

Ok, the more I see it, it's pretty much a Bladesinger from SCAG, but with more HP, and some kind of teleport when attacking... I'm I right?

Nope.

Reductionism is unhelpful in this context.

[DanyBallon]

Nope.

Reductionism is unhelpful in this context.

I'm not trying to be reductive, but from the information you gave me the Bladesinger is able to wear light armor, is an INT spellcaster, have access to SCAG cantrip, have some sort of AC boost when fighting with a one-handed weapon, but lacks bigger HD, and have no means to teleport when attacking. Since, like I said previously, I'm not familiar with 4e Swordmage, that's why I'm asking if this is right, and could be a good base for homebrew.

[Nifft]

I'm not trying to be reductive, but from the information you gave me the Bladesinger is able to wear light armor, is an INT spellcaster, have access to SCAG cantrip, have some sort of AC boost when fighting with a one-handed weapon, but lacks bigger HD, and have no means to teleport when attacking. Since, like I said previously, I'm not familiar with 4e Swordmage, that's why I'm asking if this is right, and could be a good base for homebrew.
Like ~I~ said previously, what I gave you was a high-level overview.

You're trying to use the overview as a list of "nothing but...", and that's a flawed, reductionist approach.

Thanks for trying to help, but at this point you're basically randomly guessing which one of the things you already know about could be used to emulate a thing that you do NOT know about.

In order for that approach to be helpful, it must be the case that the person you're speaking with does not already know any of the things that you know about. That is not the case here. BS and EK are already things that are known and rejected as unsuitable.

If you want to actually help, you'll want to research the Swordmage (e.g. read a build guide over in the 4e forum).

[DanyBallon]

Like ~I~ said previously, what I gave you was a high-level overview.

You're trying to use the overview as a list of "nothing but...", and that's a flawed, reductionist approach.

Thanks for trying to help, but at this point you're basically randomly guessing which one of the things you already know about could be used to emulate a thing that you do NOT know about.

In order for that approach to be helpful, it must be the case that the person you're speaking with does not already know any of the things that you know about. That is not the case here. BS and EK are already things that are known and rejected as unsuitable.

If you want to actually help, you'll want to research the Swordmage (e.g. read a build guide over in the 4e forum).

Hence it's why I asked OP to describe as much as possible what he was looking for. If you give imcomplete information, then it's hard to help you out. And as I said, there's is a possibility that two persons have different view on a same class, so its even more important for OP to list what defines a Swordmage for him.

The reason I'm using EK and BS features is that it is easier to balance existing features than features create from scratch.

[Ziegander]

I'm working on my own write up currently if anyone's interested.

[Nifft]

Hence it's why I asked OP to describe as much as possible what he was looking for. If you give imcomplete information, then it's hard to help you out.
Here's the thing: any information which appears here is going to be incomplete, because the whole 4e class is 100+ pages of text & powers.

"It's just X right?" is very unlikely to be helpful, unless the person you're speaking with is ignorant of large portions of 5e.

That's not the case here.

[DanyBallon]

Here's the thing: any information which appears here is going to be incomplete, because the whole 4e class is 100+ pages of text & powers.

"It's just X right?" is very unlikely to be helpful, unless the person you're speaking with is ignorant of large portions of 5e.

That's not the case here.

There's no need to be so rude, especially with people trying to help you. There's alot of people that tried to be helpful and were shut down. I tried to get more information in order so future comments will be more helpful.
Unfortunatelly it seems that it won't do either.

[NightDweller]

There's no need to be so rude, especially with people trying to help you. There's alot of people that tried to be helpful and were shut down. I tried to get more information in order so future comments will be more helpful.
Unfortunatelly it seems that it won't do either.

I would greatly appreciate it if you could discover the difference between disagreeing with you and being rude.

[DanyBallon]

I would greatly appreciate it if you could discover the difference between disagreeing with you and being rude.

Rude is being exasperated when someone ask to get more information in order to help you, while disagreeing is explaining to someone why their solution is not useful. Nifft did both in his post.

Now I'll step down as I'm not able to be of any real help and because I don't want to derail this topic any further.

Good luck building your Swordmage conversion. I'll be looking forward to the end result. :smallsmile:

[Millstone85]

a "War Magic" like feature that comes earlier than 7th level, access to SCAG cantripsIt is more that spells available to the swordmage, be they encounter powers (≈ 1 / short rest) or daily powers (≈ 1 / long rest), would often be buit on the same model than the booming blade and green flame blade cantrips. The melee weapon attack was part of the spell.


some kind of "teleport" featureThe general feel of the aegises was the one you would get from casting compelled duel at will. There's always that one enemy who has difficulties getting away from you or attacking anyone else than you. Only, instead of the enemy needing a save to move away, you would teleport yourself to them (Aegis of Assault) or teleport them to you (Aegis of Ensnarement) any time they manage to hit someone else despite the malus. Or you could instead reduce the damage taken (Aegis of Shielding).

The aegises also counted as subclasses in the sense that other spells would give you additional goodies if you had chosen a given aegis. I do not see this working for 5e subclasses.

[NightDweller]

It is more that spells available to the swordmage, be they encounter powers (≈ 1 / short rest) or daily powers (≈ 1 / long rest), would often be buit on the same model than the booming blade and green flame blade cantrips. The melee weapon attack was part of the spell.

The general feel of the aegises was the one you would get from casting compelled duel at will. There's always that one enemy who has difficulties getting away from you or attacking anyone else than you. Only, instead of the enemy needing a save to move away, you would teleport yourself to them (Aegis of Assault) or teleport them to you (Aegis of Ensnarement) any time they manage to hit someone else despite the malus. Or you could instead reduce the damage taken (Aegis of Shielding).

The aegises also counted as subclasses in the sense that other spells would give you additional goodies if you had chosen a given aegis. I do not see this working for 5e subclasses.

I have some ideas.....

[Millstone85]

I have some ideas.....On second thought, the 4e warlock subclasses were also mostly defined by certain spells having patron-specific clauses. 5e took the fey / fiend / squid theme and did its own thing. Maybe you can do that too.

[D.U.P.A.]

For those who mentioned Paladins, Eldritch knight is adequate substitute to an 'arcane paladin'. But Swordmage may or not be this. Also no heavy armor in 4e can be explained that no Int or Dex primary classes had heavy armor for the fact they just did not need it, because both stats contributing to AC (whichever was higher). Dex may determine in 5e that too, but we cannot say really for Int in this edition. Hence why in 5e armor depends on which attack stat you focus: Str = heavy; Dex = light or medium. And 4e had no medium armor. Swordmage was a product of filling a defender role to a class that has some yet unused stat in that field.

And aegis was just a gadget in hands of defender style classes, just like Paladins had their divine challenge or Fighters their mark to emphasise their role. In 5e you can emulate some such features via spells or maneuvers, but generally not needed and they are not often picked anyway. Honestly, I would not like to see again for someone teleporting here and there at will.

[Regitnui]

Just judging by the posts so far, it seems like the swordmage people want the swordmage put in as is, powers and all, instead of trying to meet the existing system halfway.

[djreynolds]

Just judging by the posts so far, it seems like the swordmage people want the swordmage put in as is, powers and all, instead of trying to meet the existing system halfway.

I think he can do what he wants with the mystics, they're not spells but disciplines

Like the swordmage

Use celerity to move faster, or better initiative or even action surge
iron durability to boost Ac
Psionic weapon

on and on, just refluff the class damage to what you want.

This can do what you want, just get by the name you just pick talents and disciplines and they cost so much many levels to obtain and points to use. Similar to a monk, but many more points, awesome riding damage.

It can nova, defense heal yourself and others, increase initiative, skills, and saves...

That said, we used one in game and he was powerful when he hit.... so we had to tone down the damage as not much had intelligence saves. So we toned the damage from 1d10 to 1d6 because he was adding up to 5 of these at a pop and we switched the damage to other stuff like elemental and force.

Its in the UA, it is IMO very OP, but the chassis works for you.

[Millstone85]

Just judging by the posts so far, it seems like the swordmage people want the swordmage put in as is, powers and all, instead of trying to meet the existing system halfway.My idea of meeting the existing system halfway starts with assembling a spell list out of the PHB and SCAG. The cantrips booming blade, green-flame blade, lightning lure and sword burst are just like the swordmage at-will powers of the same name, so they are a must. Then there are a number of "melee weapon attack spells" that can be borrowed from the paladin. Personally, I would also give the new swordmage some range by borrowing "ranged weapon attack spells" from the ranger.

The next step is creating class features in the style of 5e. Here is my revised copy of what I imagined earlier:
Fighting Style
At 3rd level, you adopt a particular style of fighting as your specialty. Choose one of the following options. You can’t take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.

Aegis
When you cast compelled duel, you immediately regain the spell slot you expanded on it. You can ignore this benefit to instead change the duration of the spell to 1 minute without concentration.

Arcane Archery
When you cast flame arrows, you immediately regain the spell slot you expanded on it. You can ignore this benefit to instead change the type of the extra damage from fire to acid, cold, lightning or thunder.

Stance of Chaos
When you cast elemental weapon, you immediately regain the spell slot you expanded on it. You can ignore this benefit to instead change the type of the extra damage to a combination of acid, cold, fire, lightning and thunder.

Two-Weapon Casting
When you are wielding a light melee weapon in each hand and cast a spell that includes a melee weapon attack, you can use a bonus action to replace the attack with a melee weapon attack from each weapon you wield. You do not add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack, unless that modifier is negative. If the spell refers to a hit, it can be from either attack.

Warding
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a bonus to your AC equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).

[JellyPooga]

Arcane Archery
When you cast flame arrows, you immediately regain the spell slot you expanded on it. You can ignore this benefit to instead change the type of the extra damage from fire to acid, cold, lightning or thunder.

Stance of Chaos
When you cast elemental weapon, you immediately regain the spell slot you expanded on it. You can ignore this benefit to instead change the type of the extra damage to a combination of acid, cold, fire, lightning and thunder.

While I like the "change the damage type" thing, you might want to take another look at these; functionally, this is giving a 3rd level and a 1st level spell, respectively, at-will. Wizards have to be level 18 to get a 1st level spell at-will and you're giving it away at 3rd. No-one gets to cast 3rd level spells at-will. I appreciate that they're not the most overpowered spells going or anything, but I think you need to revisit the "regain spell slot" thing. Perhaps regain a spell slot one level lower, like the Diviner ability?

[Spellbreaker26]

My idea of meeting the existing system halfway starts with assembling a spell list out of the PHB and SCAG. The cantrips booming blade, green-flame blade, lightning lure and sword burst are just like the swordmage at-will powers of the same name, so they are a must. Then there are a number of "melee weapon attack spells" that can be borrowed from the paladin. Personally, I would also give the new swordmage some range by borrowing "ranged weapon attack spells" from the ranger.

The next step is creating class features in the style of 5e. Here is my revised copy of what I imagined earlier:

I really like some of these, but some need balancing. I want to like warding, I love the idea (blocking swords with your bare hands), but the potential of getting 2 or 3 higher AC than the normal max is a little bit too much. How about half intelligence bonus rounded up?

I think the wording of Two-Weapon casting needs a little change to allow it to synergize with the dual wielder feat.

To the OP, just wondering, which bases in particular are Eldrich Knight and Spellsword not covering? I was looking up the 4e Swordmage, and I was wondering if the ability to take the Hunter's Mark spell from the ranger list would be a good imitation of the Aegis ability that 4e swordmages have.

They should definitely get either the "weapon bond" ability the Eldrich Knight has or the magic weapon the Warlock Blade Pact gets (perhaps the weapon is conjured from their willpower or determination?). They should also get the extra attack at level 5/6 but I'm leery of giving them more because the OP said that they should be primarily casters.

[DracoKnight]

I really like some of these, but some need balancing. I want to like warding, I love the idea (blocking swords with your bare hands), but the potential of getting 2 or 3 higher AC than the normal max is a little bit too much. How about half intelligence bonus rounded up?

There is already precedent for adding full INT to AC in 5e. The Bladesinger Wizard can manage to get a 30 AC this way.

[Spellbreaker26]

There is already precedent for adding full INT to AC in 5e. The Bladesinger Wizard can manage to get a 30 AC this way.

:smalleek: Wow, I did not know that. Are there any limits on that? Number of times per day, etc?

[DracoKnight]

:smalleek: Wow, I did not know that. Are there any limits on that? Number of times per day, etc?

At 18th level, no, not really.

Mage Armor = 13 + Dex (5) = 18
Blade Song: + INT (5) = 23
Shield spell: +5 1/round (Spell Mastery for At Will casting at 18th level) = 28
Haste spell: on top of all the other goodies, haste grants +2 AC = 30

NOTE: It's possible to get 31 on a Bladesinger, if you pick up the Dual Wielder feat, as Bladesong doesn't prohibit you from wielding a weapon in each hand, just from wielding two-handed weapons. So you can benefit from the Additional +1 from Dual Wielder.

An enemy literally needs to score a critical hit to deal damage to a Bladesinger. If the Bladesinger can convince an ally to cast haste on them, the Bladesinger can instead concentrate on blur, making sure that critical hit almost never happens.

As far as limits go, you are technically limited, but not really.

Bladesong is 2/rest and lasts 1 minute, but your combats rarely go over 3 rounds. There's also no way for it to end early like the Barbarian's rage. So you're going to have Bladesong every encounter. The rest you're limited only by your spell slots.

And since you only need 18 levels of Wizard to pull this off, you can dip 2 levels into Fighter to pick up Second Wind, a Fighting Style and Action Surge. If I were doing this, I would start off with Fighter for Constitution saving throws. Now, under haste you can pull off 6 attacks per round. Two by being a Bladesinger, one from your off-hand attack, one from haste, and two from Action Surge. You get to add your Strength or Dexterity and Intelligence modifier to the damage of all of these attacks, so you're dealing and average of 87 damage on an Action Surge round, or an average of 58 damage on a normal haste round.

If you choose to go a full 20 levels in Wizard, due to multiclassing being disallowed, or you want to get Signature Spell at 20th level, you can pick up haste as a Signature Spell, and cast it without expending a spell slot 1/rest.

EDIT: By the way, +INT to AC is NOT the only function of Bladesong. It also gives you +10 feet of movement, advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks, and +INT to Constitution saving throws made to maintain concentration on spells. Combined with the War Caster feat, ridiculous AC, and the blur spell and you're almost never going to lose concentration.

The one significant weakness of the Bladesinger is AOE spells and effects. Those suck when you're a Bladesinger. They're not invincible, but they're more survivable than most people think.

[Millstone85]

While I like the "change the damage type" thing, you might want to take another look at these; functionally, this is giving a 3rd level and a 1st level spell, respectively, at-will. Wizards have to be level 18 to get a 1st level spell at-will and you're giving it away at 3rd. No-one gets to cast 3rd level spells at-will.I was under the impression that at least one of the warlock invocations was an at-will 3rd-level spell. As it turns out, I dreamed that. :smallfrown:

Warlocks do get at-will 1st and 2nd-level spells, though.


I appreciate that they're not the most overpowered spells going or anything, but I think you need to revisit the "regain spell slot" thing. Perhaps regain a spell slot one level lower, like the Diviner ability?That might be a good idea.

That or the swordmage could be "handful of spell slots / short rest recharge" like the warlock.


I really like some of these, but some need balancing. I want to like warding, I love the idea (blocking swords with your bare hands), but the potential of getting 2 or 3 higher AC than the normal max is a little bit too much. How about half intelligence bonus rounded up?In 4e, it was described as a field of magical force and would provide a +1 bonus to AC while wielding a blade or a +3 bonus to AC while wielding a blade in one hand and keeping the other hand free. Now, the 5e bladesinger has the restriction of not wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield while getting this bonus. Maybe it should be nerfed this way.


I think the wording of Two-Weapon casting needs a little change to allow it to synergize with the dual wielder feat.I don't know if that synergy should be allowed. The idea is that swordmages are using weapons as spellcasting foci and that swordmage would use two together. The weapons ought to be light.


They should definitely get either the "weapon bond" ability the Eldrich Knight has or the magic weapon the Warlock Blade Pact gets (perhaps the weapon is conjured from their willpower or determination?).I vote for the former, as the 5e eldritch knight took the feature from the 4e swordmage.


They should also get the extra attack at level 5/6 but I'm leery of giving them more because the OP said that they should be primarily casters.Multiple attacks without magic? Not the swordmage way. :smallsmile:

[GandalfTheWhite]

At 18th level, no, not really.

Mage Armor = 13 + Dex (5) = 18
Blade Song: + INT (5) = 23
Shield spell: +5 1/round (Spell Mastery for At Will casting at 18th level) = 28
Haste spell: on top of all the other goodies, haste grants +2 AC = 30

NOTE: It's possible to get 31 on a Bladesinger, if you pick up the Dual Wielder feat, as Bladesong doesn't prohibit you from wielding a weapon in each hand, just from wielding two-handed weapons. So you can benefit from the Additional +1 from Dual Wielder.

An enemy literally needs to score a critical hit to deal damage to a Bladesinger. If the Bladesinger can convince an ally to cast haste on them, the Bladesinger can instead concentrate on blur, making sure that critical hit almost never happens.

As far as limits go, you are technically limited, but not really.

Bladesong is 2/rest and lasts 1 minute, but your combats rarely go over 3 rounds. There's also no way for it to end early like the Barbarian's rage. So you're going to have Bladesong every encounter. The rest you're limited only by your spell slots.

And since you only need 18 levels of Wizard to pull this off, you can dip 2 levels into Fighter to pick up Second Wind, a Fighting Style and Action Surge. If I were doing this, I would start off with Fighter for Constitution saving throws. Now, under haste you can pull off 6 attacks per round. Two by being a Bladesinger, one from your off-hand attack, one from haste, and two from Action Surge. You get to add your Strength or Dexterity and Intelligence modifier to the damage of all of these attacks, so you're dealing and average of 87 damage on an Action Surge round, or an average of 58 damage on a normal haste round.

If you choose to go a full 20 levels in Wizard, due to multiclassing being disallowed, or you want to get Signature Spell at 20th level, you can pick up haste as a Signature Spell, and cast it without expending a spell slot 1/rest.

EDIT: By the way, +INT to AC is NOT the only function of Bladesong. It also gives you +10 feet of movement, advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks, and +INT to Constitution saving throws made to maintain concentration on spells. Combined with the War Caster feat, ridiculous AC, and the blur spell and you're almost never going to lose concentration.

The one significant weakness of the Bladesinger is AOE spells and effects. Those suck when you're a Bladesinger. They're not invincible, but they're more survivable than most people think.

To put all of this into perspective, Spellbreaker26, they have higher AC than a heavy-armored fighter (Max 28 +3 Plate mail, +3 Shield, Defensive Fighting Style, +1 by being Warforged). Admittedly, they don't have too much more, but those 2-3 points of AC make all the difference, and the fighter has to invest his fighting style into it, every wizard is going to pick up the shield spell anyways. They also out-damage the great weapon fighter (average of 48 damage per round) by 10 damage on average on any round on which the great weapon fighter does not use their action surge.

Bladesingers are a terrifying force to be reckoned with when built properly.

[FMLest1998]

At 18th level, no, not really.

Mage Armor = 13 + Dex (5) = 18
Blade Song: + INT (5) = 23
Shield spell: +5 1/round (Spell Mastery for At Will casting at 18th level) = 28
Haste spell: on top of all the other goodies, haste grants +2 AC = 30

NOTE: It's possible to get 31 on a Bladesinger, if you pick up the Dual Wielder feat, as Bladesong doesn't prohibit you from wielding a weapon in each hand, just from wielding two-handed weapons. So you can benefit from the Additional +1 from Dual Wielder.

An enemy literally needs to score a critical hit to deal damage to a Bladesinger. If the Bladesinger can convince an ally to cast haste on them, the Bladesinger can instead concentrate on blur, making sure that critical hit almost never happens.

As far as limits go, you are technically limited, but not really.

Bladesong is 2/rest and lasts 1 minute, but your combats rarely go over 3 rounds. There's also no way for it to end early like the Barbarian's rage. So you're going to have Bladesong every encounter. The rest you're limited only by your spell slots.

And since you only need 18 levels of Wizard to pull this off, you can dip 2 levels into Fighter to pick up Second Wind, a Fighting Style and Action Surge. If I were doing this, I would start off with Fighter for Constitution saving throws. Now, under haste you can pull off 6 attacks per round. Two by being a Bladesinger, one from your off-hand attack, one from haste, and two from Action Surge. You get to add your Strength or Dexterity and Intelligence modifier to the damage of all of these attacks, so you're dealing and average of 87 damage on an Action Surge round, or an average of 58 damage on a normal haste round.

If you choose to go a full 20 levels in Wizard, due to multiclassing being disallowed, or you want to get Signature Spell at 20th level, you can pick up haste as a Signature Spell, and cast it without expending a spell slot 1/rest.

EDIT: By the way, +INT to AC is NOT the only function of Bladesong. It also gives you +10 feet of movement, advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks, and +INT to Constitution saving throws made to maintain concentration on spells. Combined with the War Caster feat, ridiculous AC, and the blur spell and you're almost never going to lose concentration.

The one significant weakness of the Bladesinger is AOE spells and effects. Those suck when you're a Bladesinger. They're not invincible, but they're more survivable than most people think.


To put all of this into perspective, Spellbreaker26, they have higher AC than a heavy-armored fighter (Max 28 +3 Plate mail, +3 Shield, Defensive Fighting Style, +1 by being Warforged). Admittedly, they don't have too much more, but those 2-3 points of AC make all the difference, and the fighter has to invest his fighting style into it, every wizard is going to pick up the shield spell anyways. They also out-damage the great weapon fighter (average of 48 damage per round) by 10 damage on average on any round on which the great weapon fighter does not use their action surge.

Bladesingers are a terrifying force to be reckoned with when built properly.

Holy f*ck! WotC is closer to bringing back the god wizard...just be a high elf and you're set. Oh...wait...right you have to be an elf. Right, cuz that's a detriment here.

[Millstone85]

Another thing I want to ask to the OP.

Instead of the aegises, have you considered turning paragon paths into subclasses?

[NightDweller]

Another thing I want to ask to the OP.

Instead of the aegises, have you considered turning paragon paths into subclasses?

I have considered turning two of the paragon classes into subclasses to be added after we cover the aegises: Umbriri and Wandering Swordmage.

[Bugado25]

I have my own Swordmage homebrew free on DMGuild. I would link it to you but apparently i cannot post links yet because i'm new to the forum.

www dmsguild
com/product/184091/Swordmage-Class

Add the dots and you will get there

[mgshamster]

I know its frustrating, but I promise you the Immortal. Your intelligence is used for most of the augmenting of your powers... the damage is too much, your DM may tone it down from 1d10 to maybe even 1d6. You have a healing factor based on intelligence and ac and skill checks. Lots of play.

And the psychic damage is easily changed to force or elemental.

Its the best canvas for the swordmage. Just google Psionics and Mystics and downloaded it from wizards

You heal yourself and others, it just costs Psi points, you have 64 at 10th. So many talents, etc.

Just fluff it with your table. Good luck

We've got a level 4 mystic immortal in one of my games, and he doesn't seem OP at all. I thought he would be, especially since he's also using UA feats, but gameplay seems to have turned out otherwise.

I mean, he doesn't seem to be doing more damage than my thief with sneak attack, unless he's dumping nearly all of points into damage (and the last time he did, he dealt 30 damage to a guy with 2 HP remaining; lots of wasted damage, there). And then, he's out of points.

[Millstone85]

I have considered turning two of the paragon classes into subclasses to be added after we cover the aegises: Umbriri and Wandering Swordmage.No love for the Anarch of Shyr? I quite liked the fluff of being a nation's official watchdog against its rulers. I also liked that the anarchs themselves eventually turned to excessive kingmaking. In the game of thrones...

The crunch was nice too. Elemental and brutal.

[NightDweller]

No love for the Anarch of Shyr? I quite liked the fluff of being a nation's official watchdog against its rulers. I also liked that the anarchs themselves eventually turned to excessive kingmaking. In the game of thrones...

The crunch was nice too. Elemental and brutal.

Well 1st of all. The Anarchs where exemplars of the assault style so adding them would be redundant.

Second of all I do not want to make subclasses that are campaign specific.

[Millstone85]

Well 1st of all. The Anarchs where exemplars of the assault style so adding them would be redundant.Good point. It also gives more weight to the aegis approach.


Second of all I do not want to make subclasses that are campaign specific.4e FRPG and 5e SCAG, the books this thread most relates to, do not shy away from that. But okay.

[Captain Panda]

Sorry if my blunt nature seems to come across that way.

It isn't coming across that way; it is that way. You should probably work on that.

[Millstone85]

I am trying to improve my Fighting Style feature, although the OP doesn't seem interested in it.

But I am having some difficulties.

First, I can't believe that I started it with "At 3rd level". I know very well that a 3rd-level full caster wouldn't have 3rd-level spell slots yet, much less a half caster or whatever the swordmage would be.

But more importantly... What happens if you cast elemental weapon on a bow? The spell doesn't say anything about melee but it also doesn't seem to be 5e's philosophy to have an enchantment leak from a weapon to its ammunition.

Edit: The thread the OP made in the homebrew section seems to be going well for them, so I probably shouldn't bother. Anyway, I asked about elemental weapon and bows in the simple RAW thread.

[Spellbreaker26]

I am trying to improve my Fighting Style feature, although the OP doesn't seem interested in it.

But I am having some difficulties.

First, I can't believe that I started it with "At 3rd level". I know very well that a 3rd-level full caster wouldn't have 3rd-level spell slots yet, much less a half caster or whatever the swordmage would be.

But more importantly... What happens if you cast elemental weapon on a bow? The spell doesn't say anything about melee but it also doesn't seem to be 5e's philosophy to have an enchantment leak from a weapon to its ammunition.

From what everybody's been saying, I think the swordmage is more a cleric than a paladin, so to speak; a full caster with weapon and armour proficiencies rather than a true gish.
The fighting styles are great though. Perhaps for Chaos Stance, you gain +1d4 damage on your next weapon attack after casting a spell of the same damage? So after casting burning hands, your next weapon attack will do +1d4 fire, then the bonus will go away till you cast another spell. If you cast another elemental spell in the meantime it replaces the bonus. Therefore, the Swordmage would be using the sword as a conduit for magic.

[Millstone85]

From what everybody's been saying, I think the swordmage is more a cleric than a paladin, so to speak; a full caster with weapon and armour proficiencies rather than a true gish.And here I thought the swordmage was the gisher gish I had ever seen. Let's try to figure that out.

The crunch.

You can imagine 4e classes as a table with rows labelled Arcane / Divine / Martial / Primal / Psionic and columns labelled Controller / Defender / Leader / Striker. The former were called "power sources" and the latter "roles". The designers may have tried to make a single class for each combination, although the result wasn't so clean.

Anyway, the paladin was the divine defender. Divine because full of radiant energy and other holy special effects. Defender because tanky and sticky, the one with great HP and armor that won't let you get close to their allies.

The cleric was the divine leader. Divine because full of radiant energy and other holy special effects. (Cheer)Leader because here to dispense healing and other buffing.

The swordmage? The arcane defender. Arcane because full of less pious energies and tricks. Defender because tanky and sticky, the one with great HP and armor a force field that won't let you get close to their allies.

So you see, the swordmage should have more in common with the paladin than with the cleric. Especially since I would say roles were more important than power sources in defining the style of play. At least by 4e standards.

The fluff.

When you say "a full caster with weapon and armour proficiencies", I imagine a character who sometimes casts spells and sometimes charges with their sword, depending on what seems best at the moment. Maybe a jack of all trades, master of none, oftentimes better than a master of one.

Meanwhile, the swordmage is that character whose sword makes eerie sounds as they move in physics-defying ways. I am thinking of something between Obi-Wan Kenobi and Roronoa Zoro. Their arcana and their swordsmanship are one and the same thing more often than not.

[Stoloc]

It isn't coming across that way; it is that way. You should probably work on that.
I have to say I agree with this. Several posts in this thread seemed unnecessarily rude to people who were honestly trying to contribute.

[Nifft]

It isn't coming across that way; it is that way. You should probably work on that.


I have to say I agree with this. Several posts in this thread seemed unnecessarily rude to people who were honestly trying to contribute.

Are you both honestly trying to contribute to the topic of this thread?

If so, could you briefly describe your contributions?

It looks to me like the OP tried to apologize for sounding like a jerk, and his reward for posting an apology is that he gets a couple of people trying to provoke more of a reaction by "subtly" -- scare quotes because it's actually not that subtle -- calling him a jerk.

That seems neither on topic, nor helpful.

I'm sure someone will claim that I'm being very rude by asking you both to contribute to the topic and to also stop calling the OP a jerk.

==============

A wild on-topic post appears!

So, about fighting styles.

It's my memory that the Swordmage was about one-handed weapons, so he would tend to have one hand free (for casting), and that he always made Int-based melee attacks with this weapon.

But I stopped playing 4e a little before Essentials hit the scene, so I'm sure there's stuff that I missed.

What other fighting styles were available to the 4e Swordmagi?

Cheers, -N

[Sicarius Victis]

Are you both honestly trying to contribute to the topic of this thread?

If so, could you briefly describe your contributions?

It looks to me like the OP tried to apologize for sounding like a jerk, and his reward for posting an apology is that he gets a couple of people trying to provoke more of a reaction by "subtly" -- scare quotes because it's actually not that subtle -- calling him a jerk.

That seems neither on topic, nor helpful.

I'm sure someone will claim that I'm being very rude by asking you both to contribute to the topic and to also stop calling the OP a jerk.

It was really less of an "apology" and more of an "excuse". And they weren't much more impolite than the OP was in the first place. But I digress.

Also, are you really trying to say that people shouldn't be allowed to post on a thread at all if they aren't specificly trying to contribute? I understand the sentiment, but that's going a little bit too far.


So, about fighting styles.

It's my memory that the Swordmage was about one-handed weapons, so he would tend to have one hand free (for casting), and that he always made Int-based melee attacks with this weapon.

But I stopped playing 4e a little before Essentials hit the scene, so I'm sure there's stuff that I missed.

What other fighting styles were available to the 4e Swordmagi?

Cheers, -N

A one-handed sword or a two-handed sword, basically. Not much more besides that. No shields, no non-swords...

Not even any dual-wielding, either. AFAIK only the Ranger could actually make multiple attacks do to dual-wielding.

[Coyote81]

With the idea that Swordmage (My favorite class from 4e) is a defensive half caster similar to Paladin, perhaps we can take an example from paladin and give them a spell slot using ability that will give them their 4e Aegis type ability.

My Ideas:
Starting at 1st level: Weapon Bond just as Eldritch Knight

Starting at 3rd level, when you a creature makes a weapon attack against a target other then yourself, you can expend one swordmage spell
slot as a reaction to:

(Based on what archtype you pick)
-Assault: Teleport up to 30ft to the attacking target and make a melee spell attack that on a hit deals 2d8 force damage for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8.

-Ensaring: Teleport up to 30ft to the attacking target, making a melee spell attack that on a hit deals 1d8 force, giving allies advantage when attacking the target until the end of the round, also reduces targets movement by half during their next turn.

-Shielding: Teleport up to 30ft to the target of the attack giving them 2+ Int modifier temporary hitpoints for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st to a make of 5d8.


The idea is to mimic misty step (costing both your reaction, thus limiting how much teleporting you can do and a spell slot) and providing aegis like abilities.


Summary:
This would be the iconic start of swordmage. They would be a half caster like paladin, instead of fighting styles they'd get the aegis of defense (open hand = shield). Having access to wizard cantrips will be their go to attack. Each archtype will offer a different type of defender similar to 4e, Assault = Punisher, Ensnaring=controlling, Shielding=Defensive. The bonuses at higher levels will push the archtype more into their methods.

I haven't worked out any more details, but this is what I'd like to see in 5e.

[Spellbreaker26]

With the idea that Swordmage (My favorite class from 4e) is a defensive half caster similar to Paladin, perhaps we can take an example from paladin and give them a spell slot using ability that will give them their 4e Aegis type ability.

My Ideas:
Starting at 1st level: Weapon Bond just as Eldritch Knight

Starting at 3rd level, when you a creature makes a weapon attack against a target other then yourself, you can expend one swordmage spell
slot as a reaction to:

(Based on what archtype you pick)
-Assault: Teleport up to 30ft to the attacking target and make a melee spell attack that on a hit deals 2d8 force damage for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8.

-Ensaring: Teleport up to 30ft to the attacking target, making a melee spell attack that on a hit deals 1d8 force, giving allies advantage when attacking the target until the end of the round, also reduces targets movement by half during their next turn.

-Shielding: Teleport up to 30ft to the target of the attack giving them 2+ Int modifier temporary hitpoints for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st to a make of 5d8.


The idea is to mimic misty step (costing both your reaction, thus limiting how much teleporting you can do and a spell slot) and providing aegis like abilities.


Summary:
This would be the iconic start of swordmage. They would be a half caster like paladin, instead of fighting styles they'd get the aegis of defense (open hand = shield). Having access to wizard cantrips will be their go to attack. Each archtype will offer a different type of defender similar to 4e, Assault = Punisher, Ensnaring=controlling, Shielding=Defensive. The bonuses at higher levels will push the archtype more into their methods.

I haven't worked out any more details, but this is what I'd like to see in 5e.

I like this sort of idea. I came up with a rough sort of arcane paladin and I was wondering if we could combine that with your idea. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZjnJy2TZKwgwbA31su6E5uzKuDqazJtx5FCsQnlorDg/edit?usp=sharing

[Coyote81]

Interesting ideas. I'm going to flush out my idea in full and then we can look into combining ideas

[Spiritchaser]

One thing is clear: despite all the combinations currently available, many people feel there is a conceptual and mechanical role which is not currently easy to fill.

I've played with this kind of thing but I always find myself overshadowed by the range of Paladin 6 Sorcerer 14 through Paladin 12 sorcerer 8 builds.

Because it's conceptually not THAT far off what I would like to achieve (particularly Paladin 12 Sorcerer 8) and because Paladin Sorcerer is VERY strong, it tends to mess up my balance efforts.

Yes something with similar synergy with wizard has occurred but... That seems manipulative...

[Nifft]

IMHO the Int casting synergy with Wizard should be expected, and multi-classing should be anticipated & supported.

Going full Swordmage 20 or Wizard 20 should be at least as viable as multi-classing -- IMHO that's the goal worth striving towards.


The niches which aren't filled yet seem to include:

• Arcane Defender -> use your Reaction to punish a foe for not attacking you, by teleporting to that foe and performing a face-stab.

• Tactical Teleports -> Shadow Monk kinda has this, so at that frequency but with different restrictions. Also, the Rogue is very mobile, so an Arcane Trickster / Swordmage combo should be expected and viable without overshadowing either AT or Swordmage.

• One-Handed Fighting Style -> IMHO this should be viable without dipping Fighter, but if you do dip Fighter then you can get the Duelist fighting style to buff yourself even more. That multi-class combo should be valid, but dipping Fighter is not free, and the Swordmage should be viable without any dips. I would expect to see some Eldritch Knight / Swordmage multi-class builds.

• Cantrip-Based Front-Liner -> The Bladesinger was probably supposed to fill this role, but IMHO it's not up to the job, and frankly making a viable tank who is ALSO a full-caster PLUS gets the best spell list is probably not balanced.

[Sicarius Victis]

4e also had the seeker class, whose shtick was casting spells as a rider to a ranged attack. I would ask if there really needed to be two classes and if the 5e swordmage couldn't take spells from the ranger as well as from the paladin. So now we have:
* Banishing Smite
* Blinding Smite
* Branding Smite
* Conjure Barrage
* Conjure Volley
* Cordon of Arrows
* Elemental Weapon
* Ensnaring Strike
* Flame Arrows
* Hunter's Mark
* Lightning Arrow
* Magic Weapon
* Searing Smite
* Staggering Smite
* Swift Quiver
* Thunderous Smite
* Wrathful Smite

I would then add the cantrips from SCAG and call it an interesting spell list to build a class around.

Actually, that would be a rather interesting basis for a class. Give them 1/2 casting, give them a choice between "Seeker/AA" and "Swordmage" subclasses, and give them slightly modified spelllists.

[The Shadowdove]

Does canceling the blade song as described in SCAG (no action required) only use up part of its duration or the entirety of it?

[DivisibleByZero]

Does canceling the blade song as described in SCAG (no action required) only use up part of its duration or the entirety of it?

All of it.
You get two uses per short rest up to one minute each, not two minutes worth per short rest. If you cancel it (or if it gets canceled by some other means) that was one of your uses.

[Arkhios]

Does canceling the blade song as described in SCAG (no action required) only use up part of its duration or the entirety of it?

Entirety of it, as there's no such things as "must be used in X increments" as in Pathfinder. And it's better that way. Incremental micromanagement is frustrating.

[Nifft]

Actually, that would be a rather interesting basis for a class. Give them 1/2 casting, give them a choice between "Seeker/AA" and "Swordmage" subclasses, and give them slightly modified spelllists.

That sounds like a more ambitious project than just making a Swordmage.

If you can see a way to do it, I'm very interested in stealing your designs. :)

[Sicarius Victis]

That sounds like a more ambitious project than just making a Swordmage.

If you can see a way to do it, I'm very interested in stealing your designs. :)

Actually, I have a few thoughts for it now. Give them 1/2 casting, with a smaller spell list than the Ranger or Palading. Give them a few more "Arcane" spells that Ranger/Paladin don't get, as well as INT-based casting rather than WIS or CHA. Give them a choice of either Swordmage or Arcane Archer at 2nd level, and an "Expanded Spell List" giving them either Paladin Smite spells or Ranger "Volley" spells, as well as certain other spells such as Hunters Mark, all depending on what subclass they chose. Give them spontaneous spellcasting like a Ranger, give them a Weapon Bond at first level instead of Lay on Hands/Favoured Enemy, and that's a good start right there. Maybe give them "mini" subclasses depending on what their choice was, such as Swordmage getting their Aegis choice and Archer getting a choice between AA and Seeker. Or something.

You know what, now I think I'm going to try to make this into an actual class. I'll attempt to write it up in the Homebrew forum later today, when i have a bit more time to do it.

Edit: Or maybe I'll just write it up as two different classes, basically as Arcane variants of Paladin and Ranger.

[Ziegander]

Actually, I have a few thoughts for it now. Give them 1/2 casting, with a smaller spell list than the Ranger or Palading. Give them a few more "Arcane" spells that Ranger/Paladin don't get, as well as INT-based casting rather than WIS or CHA. Give them a choice of either Swordmage or Arcane Archer at 2nd level, and an "Expanded Spell List" giving them either Paladin Smite spells or Ranger "Volley" spells, as well as certain other spells such as Hunters Mark, all depending on what subclass they chose. Give them spontaneous spellcasting like a Ranger, give them a Weapon Bond at first level instead of Lay on Hands/Favoured Enemy, and that's a good start right there. Maybe give them "mini" subclasses depending on what their choice was, such as Swordmage getting their Aegis choice and Archer getting a choice between AA and Seeker. Or something.

You know what, now I think I'm going to try to make this into an actual class. I'll attempt to write it up in the Homebrew forum later today, when i have a bit more time to do it.

Edit: Or maybe I'll just write it up as two different classes, basically as Arcane variants of Paladin and Ranger.

https://i.imgflip.com/1evhk7.jpg

[Millstone85]

When I read the original post and its warning that eldritch knight wouldn't do, I was on board with that feeling.

But the more this thread goes on and the more I try to come up with ideas, the more I realize that an eldritch knight with SCAG cantrips does meet the fluff and crunch of a swordmage pretty well already.

Tweaking the spell list a bit, notably with compelled duel, elemental weapon and a few smite/strike spells, would make it complete as far as I am concerned.

Please accept my apologies for losing my motivation in helping to recreate the swordmage as its own class.

[Sicarius Victis]

https://i.imgflip.com/1evhk7.jpg

Yes. After posting my comment, I realized how stupidly complicated the concept had gotten and decided it would likely be better to simplify, using two classes instead of one.

[DivisibleByZero]

But the more this thread goes on and the more I try to come up with ideas, the more I realize that an eldritch knight with SCAG cantrips does meet the fluff and crunch of a swordmage pretty well already.

Exactly.
EK was designed as 5e's answer to multiple classes, Swordmage being one of those.
I mean, it literally steals features from SM and drops them into EK.
It wasn't meant to be an exact replica of SM, but it was indeed intended to work appropriately in its absence, which it does.

[Spellbreaker26]

Exactly.
EK was designed as 5e's answer to multiple classes, Swordmage being one of those.
I mean, it literally steals features from SM and drops them into EK.
It wasn't meant to be an exact replica of SM, but it was indeed intended to work appropriately in its absence, which it does.

Gonna have to agree. Anything it doesn't do can be fulfilled by multiclassing (say, Wizard/Eldrich Knight).

[Coyote81]

I disagree, one of the inherit issues I have with 5e is that the tanks don't really tank. The swordmage was designed behind forcing your enemies to deal with you or suffer consequences, something 5e doesn't do well at all. EK does it even less (They fit bladesinger/arcane archer well, but I find them to tank poorly. Although everything tanks poorly right now.)

Making a swordmage class is the perfect opportunity to bring real tanks to the game. Instead of super health and resistant barbarian that the only reason the DM even deals with them is because they actually do more damage then Rogues. What ever happened to the tank role in this game anyways, now it seems we have pure DPS, DPS skill monkeys, blaster casters, and utility casters. Tanks are not needed and pure support healers are not required.

Bring back the swordmage, and show them how interesting tanking can be.

[Sicarius Victis]

I disagree, one of the inherit issues I have with 5e is that the tanks don't really tank. The swordmage was designed behind forcing your enemies to deal with you or suffer consequences, something 5e doesn't do well at all. EK does it even less (They fit bladesinger/arcane archer well, but I find them to tank poorly. Although everything tanks poorly right now.)

Making a swordmage class is the perfect opportunity to bring real tanks to the game. Instead of super health and resistant barbarian that the only reason the DM even deals with them is because they actually do more damage then Rogues. What ever happened to the tank role in this game anyways, now it seems we have pure DPS, DPS skill monkeys, blaster casters, and utility casters. Tanks are not needed and pure support healers are not required.

Bring back the swordmage, and show them how interesting tanking can be.

The Paladin objects.

[Nifft]

The Paladin objects.

Paladin is a nice example of the scale of melee damage that can't be ignored.

IMHO the Swordmage should aim to be about as annoying as the Paladin, albeit in totally different mechanical ways.

[Arkhios]

I disagree, one of the inherit issues I have with 5e is that the tanks don't really tank. The swordmage was designed behind forcing your enemies to deal with you or suffer consequences, something 5e doesn't do well at all. EK does it even less (They fit bladesinger/arcane archer well, but I find them to tank poorly. Although everything tanks poorly right now.)

Making a swordmage class is the perfect opportunity to bring real tanks to the game. Instead of super health and resistant barbarian that the only reason the DM even deals with them is because they actually do more damage then Rogues. What ever happened to the tank role in this game anyways, now it seems we have pure DPS, DPS skill monkeys, blaster casters, and utility casters. Tanks are not needed and pure support healers are not required.

Bring back the swordmage, and show them how interesting tanking can be.
Why is it people make assumptions that any of the classes were "made to tank", when they're not. The classes are just classes with different mechanics. The choice whether one should fill the role of a "tank" isn't a built in feature in 5th edition, like it was in 4th edition. And that's a good thing. Now, everyone have equal chance to be the "tank" if they wish to. Making a class specifically for that purpose is redundant.

The Paladin objects.
Also, this.

[Coyote81]

Why is it people make assumptions that any of the classes were "made to tank", when they're not. The classes are just classes with different mechanics. The choice whether one should fill the role of a "tank" isn't a built in feature in 5th edition, like it was in 4th edition. And that's a good thing. Now, everyone have equal chance to be the "tank" if they wish to. Making a class specifically for that purpose is redundant.

Also, this.

I actually called out that none of the classes are tanks. The purpose of my post is that none of the classes can tank, their are no mechanics that punish attackers for not attacking the "tank" or aid party members defended by "tank". I think this is a mechanic that is missing from 5e that would make things more interesting.

As a DM, I have to purposely not just kill the squishy caster type character from a group. They're is nothing stopping a DM from doing this, is they put their mind to it (and by the rules, not cheating). The protection methods in this game are a joke. Don't think the game wouldn't get better from having official tank classes that prevent squishy classes from getting kill. Then DMs wouldn't have to tone down engagements that would 1-shot a wizard, so far down that Barbarians make the engagement infantile.

[DivisibleByZero]

So what you're saying is that the game needs mechanics which force the DM to use different tactics than the players use, and that forcing him to do so would make the game more interesting and more fair?
That's basically what you're saying, and it's asinine.

The Roles from 4e are intentionally a thing of the past. They were left out for a reason. Introducing a "Tank" class that functions the way that a 4e tank did would be a huge mistake.
Luckily the developers knew this.

This isn't an MMO, and no one wants it to be one. The people that want to play a tabletop MMO can simply play 4th edition.

[Arkhios]

I actually called out that none of the classes are tanks. The purpose of my post is that none of the classes can tank, their are no mechanics that punish attackers for not attacking the "tank" or aid party members defended by "tank". I think this is a mechanic that is missing from 5e that would make things more interesting.

As a DM, I have to purposely not just kill the squishy caster type character from a group. They're is nothing stopping a DM from doing this, is they put their mind to it (and by the rules, not cheating). The protection methods in this game are a joke. Don't think the game wouldn't get better from having official tank classes that prevent squishy classes from getting kill. Then DMs wouldn't have to tone down engagements that would 1-shot a wizard, so far down that Barbarians make the engagement infantile.

That's where you're wrong. In Dungeon Master's Guide there is an optional rule for Marking (pg. 271 to be precise) which anyone can use. Combined with the Sentinel feat, that's going to leave a mark (see what I did there :smallbiggrin:?)

But as DBZ said, D&D isn't an MMO, while there is an MMO based on D&D. 4th edition was the first - and hopefully last - D&D edition that tried to force specific roles to characters. It was just an experiment that so many people didn't like - enough for its more scetchier mechanics to not weasel their way into 5th edition.

[BloodxHunter]

Don't know what level you're thinking of, so I'll use lvl7 (rough estimate) point buy Human/variant
Dragon Sorcerer4/ Eldritch knight 3

str 15
dex 14
con 13
int 10
wis 10
cha 14

Warcaster..... and anything you want or ASI

A Dueling sword and board, with a teleporting hand axe
get your sword as a focus

(I) take quicken and subtle spell
(if you get sorc up high enough, take twin spell)

with EK levels, take only support/mobility spells(shield, jump, misty step, Light, longstrider ect. ) and Wizard spells the sorc doesn't have(Fire Shield, Blade Ward, Find Familiar, Gentle Repose ect. ect)

Sorcerer takes spells that kill or sustain ones self(FALSE LIFE,(you ****ing take it), Fireball, Rayoffrost, Feather Falling, Booming and Green Flame blades, Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Mirror image, Globe of NyehNyeh Can't Touch Me, ect. ect. ect.) and utility and disruption spells that make you not die.(Counterspell, Dispel magic, Hold Person, sleep, mending, message, prestidigitation, D.D. Door ect. ect. ect. ect. ect.)

EK is a sweet idea, but as it's a 3rd/caster, it sucks. For this reason, we umm "fix" it with full-caster levels. But what people overlook about the EK is that it still follows the Fighter skill tree, so you get extra attacks and action surge on top of teleporting weapons(and self(that you can chain)) and the ability to cast haste, counterspell mages and E. tele away from berserkers.

when you say gish, I either think anime spellblade, or Arcane Warrior (sub class from Dragon Age: Origins.)
The messy description above is based off of the latter.

what we have here is a mage that can switch(or simultaneously)
perform many roles, but is built around survival.

Now the specifics!

why subtle and quickened spell?
subtle spell, because of its sheer utility. It's makes your spells unable to be countered, silent(not explosions, obviously) and surprising, as there is nothing to react to.
To state an RP reason, imagine the fear you can inflict on a villain as they monologue, to slowly rise, gripping your blade... they laugh and cast disintegrate, but it fizzles(subtle counterspell), you walk toward them, bloodlust welling in your eyes. they try again! and againn! that moment, when you're upon them, and terror grips their soul! Beautiful.... oh yeah and some thing about stealth, or charming or whatever.

Quicken spell, is for more... niche applications. such as needing to cast enlarge while inside monsters very fast. it does let you cast 2 spells, without burning an action surge, but you're burning spellpoints.

And to the better question... why sorcerer? wizard uses int.
purely flavor reasons. he's like a jedi, innately gifted with magic, and buffs himself with it to do lots of wacky supernatural bull****.
If you want practical reasons though, cause twin spell and that he gets con saves with a higher hit die than the wizard. Also CHA

if you are a higher level, or progress to level 10, go sorc till lvl 8 then take 2 in Paladin for the Cure Wounds(member Find Familiar? Member Twin Spell?), Shield of Faith and Revivify(member Gentle Repose?)

you'll be the king of cantrips by lvl 10(assuming you took Magic initiate(Bard, Viscous Mockery and Dissonant Whispers), able to keep yourself and the team alive, take a sword to the chest and keep fighting. You'll be able to cover very long distances quickly with buffs and teleports. Sneak, parkour, and be an effective combatant at any range (any.)
but only a 7th level caster and wouldn't have a second attack untill you take another EK level. Given that EK gets 1/3rd caster levels, you'll have to be very careful about how you allot levels further. IMO this character at 20th level would ideally look like...
Sorc 12/ EK 6/ Pal 2
with this, you'd be a 15th lvl caster able to cast level 7th spells, which still grants you everything(except Astral Projection :( ) you need to be a toolbox mage still made out of badass solid enough to beat people over the head with it. And a supple enough interior lining enough for you to play it smooth.


sorry for the rant, hope this at least gives ideas or an appreciation for the sheer potential behind just one of the many possible gish builds.

Unless you're basically just talking about a bladesinger, in which case just take that. No, you're not gonna find a really better "spellblade" than a bladesongEK