Favourite save-or-suck?

[GilesTheCleric]

For business or pleasure. Or both!

[Thurbane]

I'm quite fond of Heartache (BoVD): save or helpless for 1 round. The neat thing is that it's only 1st level, and easy enough to Extend. Helpless for 2 rounds usually means death (nice set up for a coup-de-grace).

But my favorite has to be Great Thunderclap (SC): three separate saves (admittedly, deafened ins't that great, but stunned and/or prone are nice), one save again each save type. Also, one of the few Evocation attacking spells that is SR: no.

[Endarire]

Web is my go-to for disabling crowds. It hampers those even who save! Add haboob (Sandstorm) and you have a blender!

I like Evard's Black Tentacles due to it preventing movement while deailng blunt damage.

[Soranar]

Dominate person.

Has many uses in and out of combat. You neutralize a target and gain an ally, it's a great effect.

[Muggins]

I'll extend that to Suggestion, too. I know savage progressions and monsters are totally passé, but a succubus with a high charisma score can absolutely wreck any fight of equal CR.

All you need to be able to do is speak their language, and bam. "Go and take a lie down, you seem tired" or "go jump in that refreshing acid, why not?" can serve as I-win buttons in combat, and it's a nice out-of-combat ability too.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I would have to second Evard's Black Tentacles.

Unless we're including Save or Dies as well, in which case my favorite is Flesh to Ice due to the fact that you can add Irresistible Spell to it without taking up an Epic level spell slot.

[The Glyphstone]

Defenestrating Sphere. Because it picks up its target and flings them out the nearest window if one is available. Hilarious.

[flappeercraft]

Phantasmal Assailants is an incredible spell when fighting against divine casters, if they miss any of the 2 saves (One Will, One Fort), each save reduces their dexterity and wisdom by 4 which just screws them up if you get the saves high enough and is especially useful in low levels where it makes them have crappy touch AC, next to no Will saves, almost no reflex saves and possibly unable to cast spells

[Hiro Quester]

Irresistible Dance is high up on my list. No save, just suck. And suck while being hilarious.

You have to make a touch attack, but in many situations that is easier than beating a saving throw. And then the target can do nothing but "caper and prance" in place for 2-5 rounds, provoking attacks of opportunity as it shuffles and taps its feet.


Edit: plus it's now -10 on reflex saves, which makes other Casters' blasting spells way more likely to be effective.

First time I ever got to use this spell as a bard/sublime chord (gets access to the spell quite early, at 13th level) was against a fairly large red dragon.

The DM played up the dragon's dancing really well, and was a good sport about the comedy of it all, but it was clear that our party just massacring the dragon in a few rounds was not how he thought that encounter would go down.

[danielxcutter]

Ooo, tricky. I assume posting multiple fun spells is allowed, right?

For starters, Ray of Exhaustion. Save-or-suck, but it sucks even if you save. Real fun against chargers.

Cloudkill is another suck-or-suck spell, great for taking care of vermin swarms. In fact, in Murphy's Law, it was originally developed as just that.

Feeblemind is a real monster, since Int and Cha down to 1 is something arcanists want to avoid at all costs... except for the tiny fact that arcanists take penalties.

My absolute favorites, however, are the Prismatic family, especially the Wall and the Sphere. Half are save-or-loses, and the other half suck even if you save. Plus, it gives you the opportunity to say "Taste the rainbow, m#th$rfu*ke&s."

[sleepyphoenixx]

Hesitate (PHB2). Making your enemy lose at least one standard action for your immediate action? Awesome.
Even better if it's chained. Sure, the lower save on secondary targets is annoying, but you're still only using an immediate action.

[Korahir]

Glitterdust. AoE, very useful without the suck. Love it, even the nerfed PF Version.

[remetagross]

Unless we're including Save or Dies as well, in which case my favorite is Flesh to Ice due to the fact that you can add Irresistible Spell to it without taking up an Epic level spell slot.

About the fact that Flesh to Ice is essentially Flesh to Stone but one level earlier, would you say that Flesh to Ice is too powerful or Flesh to Stone is too weak?

[Inevitability]

Seething Eyebane. You're making someone's eyes explode into acid, and it's only a 1st-level spell.

Use it on a beholder for bonus points.

[Togo]

Bardic suggestion

I saw a ballerina bard use it once, in combat with the big bad.

"I suggest you join me in expressing your inner pain through the medium of dance"

[MilleniaAntares]

Do grease and ectoplasmic sheen count? They have saved the butts of a few people in the various games I've been in. Also hilarious.

[Inevitability]

Web is my go-to for disabling crowds. It hampers those even who save! Add haboob (Sandstorm) and you have a blender!

Also, there's the oft-forgotten Ectoplasmic Web from Ghostwalk. Now ghosts can enjoy being entangled, too!

[ace rooster]

I'd probably go with pyrotechnics. 120' radius blind, from a second level spell. Have allies in fog when you cast it to make them immune. The alternate mode is an extra cherry of versitility.

[Demidos]

Frostfell. High level druid spell, 1d6/level ON A SAVE, Die if you fail.

Alternately, final rebuke -- Save and dazed, or die if you fail.

So more of suck or die, really.

[Starkeeper]

I'm quite fond of the spell Clutch of Orcus, it's pretty of bad due to the fact that it allows a Fortitude save every round as well as being Spell Resistance: Yes, but grabbing someone's heart magically, having them at your mercy as you walk towards them for a fatal blow(remember to use Swift Concentration) just really fits the evil necromancer fluff.

And then their smoking heart appears in your hand.

[Thurbane]

Isn't there a couple of spells that allow you to rip someone's heart out? The other one is an assassin spell, from memory. AFB at the moment.

[Crake]

Personally I'm actually a big fan of seething eyebane, especially on undead clerics, so you can ignore the corruption cost :smalltongue: Who doesn't like a level 1 save-or-have-your-eyeballs-explode-into-acid

[ben-zayb]

Glamer spells on a Shadowcraft Mage: oh, you saved? Take more damage!

Glitterdust: as mentioned above
Downdraft (Drd 3): make creatures fall down 100ft, or 50ft on save.
Stun Ray: Stun for 1d4 rds, 1 round on a save
Final Rebuke: Die, or be dazed for 1 round
Arboreal Transformation: be turned into a freaking tree, or be slow for 1 *day* per CL

[Powerdork]

Spark of life (Spell Compendium 196) is fun because it removes many of those pesky undead immunities from the target and lets you choke it with stinking cloud or apply other such fun crowd control effects.

[Tainted_Scholar]

About the fact that Flesh to Ice is essentially Flesh to Stone but one level earlier, would you say that Flesh to Ice is too powerful or Flesh to Stone is too weak?

Flesh to Ice on it's own probably wouldn't be too powerful, but considering that it's pretty much the exact same as Flesh to Stone it seems overpowered. Mostly because Flesh to Stone is a core spell while Flesh to Ice is from a splat book.

[Inevitability]

Personally I'm actually a big fan of seething eyebane, especially on undead clerics, so you can ignore the corruption cost :smalltongue: Who doesn't like a level 1 save-or-have-your-eyeballs-explode-into-acid

Undead being immune is shaky, though. The BovD FAQ said that undead merely have all damage and drain shifted to their charisma score, which would actually make them worse for casting such spells.


Isn't there a couple of spells that allow you to rip someone's heart out? The other one is an assassin spell, from memory. AFB at the moment.

It's the aptly named Heart Ripper you're referring to, I believe.

[Hiro Quester]

Frostfell. High level druid spell, 1d6/level ON A SAVE, Die if you fail.


Seconding this. Turn into a popsicle, or if you save take CL d6 damage. Plus it also has a large and flexible area (20 10ft squares).

And it increases the CL of any cold spells cast from that area afterwards (which helps out our party's cold-focused blaster sorcerer.

So die or suck, plus buffing.

My Druid PC always has one or two of these prepared.