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NightDweller
2016-11-23, 09:21 PM
Base class request for a swordmage based as closely as possible on the 4e swordmage with different swordmage traditions based on the three different forms of aegis.

Thank you in advance for any interest.

Nifft
2016-11-23, 11:34 PM
What I recall of the Swordmage is...

Defender. This means:
- high HD,
- a mechanic which makes this PC a preferable target for at least one enemy, and
- some form of lockdown / battlefield control.

The latter was accomplished through melee spell-attack powers like Booming Blade and Lightning Lure, both of which have been ported to 5e as cantrips.

Teleports to enemy when the "preferable target" mechanic triggers. This means some new mechanic.

Arcane. This means spells, at least half-caster; spells attacks and DCs are based off Intelligence.


- - -

IMHO Eldritch Knight is not a valid substitute: the Swordmage uses cantrips at high level, and a regular Fighter's Str-based attack x4 is going to eclipse that. So the Swordmage needs something else to keep up at higher levels, and it must be something compatible with using melee weapon attack cantrips.

NightDweller
2016-11-23, 11:43 PM
What I recall of the Swordmage is...

Defender. This means:
- high HD,
- a mechanic which makes this PC a preferable target for at least one enemy, and
- some form of lockdown / battlefield control.

The latter was accomplished through melee spell-attack powers like Booming Blade and Lightning Lure, both of which have been ported to 5e as cantrips.

Teleports to enemy when the "preferable target" mechanic triggers. This means some new mechanic.

Arcane. This means spells, at least half-caster; spells attacks and DCs are based off Intelligence.


- - -

IMHO Eldritch Knight is not a valid substitute: the Swordmage uses cantrips at high level, and a regular Fighter's Str-based attack x4 is going to eclipse that. So the Swordmage needs something else to keep up at higher levels, and it must be something compatible with using melee weapon attack cantrips.

Agreed, being a gish does not necessarily make one a swordmage.

Sicarius Victis
2016-11-24, 12:00 AM
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481588-D-amp-D-5e-Homebrew-Compendium-2) is a link to a compendium of 5e homebrew, including multiple "Swordmage" classes.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412947-5e-Swordmage-(Half-casting-two-subclass-variant)) is the closest I have found to the originsl 4e one.

NightDweller
2016-11-24, 01:27 AM
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481588-D-amp-D-5e-Homebrew-Compendium-2) is a link to a compendium of 5e homebrew, including multiple "Swordmage" classes.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412947-5e-Swordmage-(Half-casting-two-subclass-variant)) is the closest I have found to the originsl 4e one.

Why do so many people give them access to medium armor?

I think I will simply make my own when I have the time.

Ziegander
2016-11-24, 02:59 PM
The Swordmage
*(A work in progress...)

HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: 1d10 per swordmage level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d10 (or 6) + your Constitution modifier per swordmage level after 1st

PROFICIENCIES
Armor: Light armor
Weapons: Simple weapons, greatswords, longswords, rapiers, scimitars, and shortswords.
Tools: None

Saving Throws: Intelligence, Wisdom
Skills: Choose two from Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, History, Insight, and Intimidate

EQUIPMENT
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:

(a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) any simple weapon
(a) a greatsword, (b) a longsword, (c) a rapier, or (d) two shortswords
(a) a scholar's pack or (b) a dungeoneer's pack
Leather armor and a dagger





—Spell Slots per Spell Level—


Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Cantrips
Known
Spells
Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th


1st
+2
Cantrips, Swordbond, Swordmage Warding
1
—
—
—
—
—
—


2nd
+2
Spellcasting, Fighting Style
1
2
2
—
—
—
—


3rd
+2
Swordmage Aegis
2
3
3
—
—
—
—


4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
2
4
3
—
—
—
—


5th
+3
Extra Attack
2
5
4
2
—
—
—


6th
+3
? ? ? ?
2
6
4
2
—
—
—


7th
+3
Aegis Feature
2
7
4
3
—
—
—


8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
2
8
4
3
—
—
—


9th
+4

2
9
4
3
2
—
—


10th
+4
? ? ? ?
3
9
4
3
2
—
—


11th
+4
Eldritch Swordbond
3
10
4
3
3
—
—


12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
3
10
4
3
3
—
—


13th
+5

3
11
4
3
3
1
—


14th
+5
? ? ? ?
3
11
4
3
3
1
—


15th
+5
Aegis Feature
3
12
4
3
3
2
—


16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
3
12
4
3
3
2
—


17th
+6

3
13
4
3
3
3
1


18th
+6
? ? ? ?
3
13
4
3
3
3
1


19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement
3
14
4
3
3
3
2


20th
+6
Aegis Feature
3
14
4
3
3
3
2



CANTRIPS
At 1st level, you know one cantrip of your choice from the swordmage spell list. You learn additional swordmage cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Swordmage table.

SWORDBOND
You can perform a ritual over the course of 1 hour that creates a magical bond between yourself and a greatsword, longsword, rapier, scimitar, or shortsword. The weapon must be within your reach throughout the ritual, at the conclusion of which you touch the weapon and form the bond. Once you have bonded a weapon to yourself, you can't be disarmed of that weapon unless you are incapacitated. If it is on the same plane of existence you are, you can summon that weapon as a bonus action on your turn, causing it to teleport instantly into your grasp.

You can have up to two bonded weapons, but can summon only one at a time with your bonus action. If you attempt to bond with a third weapon, you must break the bond with one of the other two.

Your bonded weapon counts as magical (if it was not already) for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

If your bonded weapon is broken or damaged, you can spend 1 hour of meditation to recreate the weapon from a fragment (This process automatically destroys any other fragments of the weapon in existence, so you can't use it to create multiple copies of a broken weapon).

SWORDMAGE WARDING
You gain a +1 bonus to AC while conscious and wielding greatsword, longsword, rapier, scimitar, or shortsword. This bonus increases to +3 if you are wielding the blade in one hand, and your other hand is free, that is, not carrying a shield, an off-hand weapon, a two-handed weapon, or anything else.

Swordmage Warding is effectively a Fighting Style, and thus its bonus does not stack with any AC bonuses derived from the Fighting Style class feature.

SPELLCASTING
As a student of arcane magic, you have a spellbook containing spells that show the first glimmerings of your true power. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and below for the swordmage spell list.

CANTRIPS
Acid Splash
Blade Ward
Booming Blade
Chill Touch
Fire Bolt
Green-Flame Blade
Light
Lightning Lure
Mage Hand
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Ray of Frost
Shocking Grasp
Sword Burst
True Strike

1ST LEVEL
Burning Hands
Chromatic Orb
Compelled Duel
Comprehend Languages
Detect Magic
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Identify
Jump
Longstrider
Magic Missile
Protection from Evil and Good
Searing Smite
Shield
Thunderous Smite
Thunderwave
Wrathful Smite

2ND LEVEL
Blur
Branding Smite
Cloud of Daggers
Darkness
Darkvision
Detect Thoughts
Enlarge/Reduce
Flaming Sphere
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Invisibility
Levitate
Magic Weapon
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Spider Climb

3RD LEVEL
Blinding Smite
Blink
Dispel Magic
Elemental Weapon
Fireball
Fly
Gaseous Form
Haste
Lightning Bolt
Magic Circle
Phantom Steed
Protection from Energy
Slow
Tongues
Vampiric Touch
Waterbreathing

4TH LEVEL
Banishment
Dimension Door
Fire Shield
Ice Storm
Staggering Smite
Stoneskin
Wall of Fire

5TH LEVEL
Banishing Smite
Cone of Cold
Hold Monster
Passwall
Teleportation Circle


Spellbook
At 2nd level, you learn two 1st-level swordmage spells of your choice and record them into your spellbook. As you gain additional swordmage class levels you will add new swordmage spells to your spellbook as shown in the Spells Known column of the Swordmage table. These new spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the "Your Spellbook" sidebar on page 114 of the Player's Handbook).

Preparing and Casting Spells
The Swordmage table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

You prepare the list of swordmage spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of swordmage spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + ½ your swordmage level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

For example, if you're a 6th level swordmage, you have four 1st-level spell slots and two 2nd. With an Intelligence modifier of +3, you list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spellbook. If you prepare the 1st-level spell magic missle, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn't remove it from your list of prepared spells.

You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of swordmage spells requires time spent studying your spellbook and memorizing the incantations and gestures you must make to cast the spell: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.

Spellcasting Ability
Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your swordmage spells, since you learn through dedicated study and memorization. You use your Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a swordmage spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spellcasting Focus
You can use a weapon you have made a bond with through your Swordbond class feature as a spellcasting focus for your swordmage spells.

SWORDMAGE AEGIS
At 3rd level, you choose an aegis that will come to define your arcane style of martial arts, a mantle that grants you power and reflects your character. Choose Aegis of Shielding, Aegis of Snaring, or Aegis of Striking, detailed below. The aegis you choose grants you features at 3rd level and again at 7th, 15th, and 20th.

AEGIS OF SHIELDING
At 3rd level, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.

Starting at 3rd level, if an enemy makes an attack against an ally within 10ft, you may use your reaction to give that ally resistance to all damage dealt by that attack. If the enemy's attack hits, that enemy is dealt 1d8 radiant damage.


Dazing Rebuke
At 7th level, whenever an enemy makes an attack against an ally within a distance less than or equal to your movement speed, you may use your reaction to make either an attack with your bonded weapon (if the enemy is adjacent to you), or a ranged spell attack against that enemy that deals force damage equal to your bonded weapon's damage dice + your Intelligence modifier. Whichever attack you make, if it hits, the enemy must then make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier) or be Stunned until the end of your next turn, then suffer disadvantage on all attacks it makes for 1 minute (though it can make a new saving throw at the end of each of its turns to remove its disadvantage).

After hitting with Dazing Rebuke you can't use the ability again until you have completed a short or long rest.

Silverlight Strike
Starting at 15th level, as an action you can make a single melee attack against a creature with your bonded weapon, dealing 5d8 additional radiant damage with that attack. If your attack hits, your allies are invisible to the target for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence modifier.

After hitting with Silverlight Strike you can't use the ability again until you have completed a short of long rest.

Righteous Flames
Starting at 20th level, as an action you can make a single melee attack against a creature with your bonded weapon, dealing 10d10 additional fire damage with that attack. If your attack hits, for the rest of the encounter, whenever it makes an attack against you or an ally within a distance less than or equal to your movement speed it is dealt fire damage equal to 1d8 + your Intelligence modifier and must pass a Charisma saving throw (DC 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier) or it suffers disadvantage on all attacks it makes until the end of your next turn.

After hitting with Righteous Flames you can't use the ability again until you have completed a long rest.


AEGIS OF SNARING
At 3rd level, you may take either the Disengage or Dash action as a bonus action on your turn.

Starting at 3rd level, if an enemy within 10ft makes an attack against an ally, you may use your reaction to reduce that enemy's speed to 0 until the end of its next turn. If its attack hits, that enemy must make a Dexterity saving throw (8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier). If the enemy's save fails, it is teleported into an open space of your choice that is adjacent to you.


AEGIS OF STRIKING
Starting at 3rd level, attacks you make with bonded weapons score critical hits on a roll of 19 or 20.

Starting at 3rd level, if an enemy within 10ft makes an attack against an ally, and that attack hits, you may use your reaction to teleport to an open space adjacent to that enemy and make an attack against it with a weapon you are bonded with. If you are fighting with two weapons and are bonded with both of them, you may make one attack with each as part of the same reaction.


ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, two ability scores of your choice by 1, or you may choose a feat (as described in the Player's Handbook starting on page 165). As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

EXTRA ATTACK
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

ELDRITCH SWORDBOND
Beginning at 11th level, whenever you hit with an attack with one of your bonded weapons that attack deals 1d8 additional force damage.

Ziegander
2016-11-24, 03:57 PM
So far:


Any thoughts on the 5e versions of the various Swordmage Aegis powers?
Any ideas for the many empty class features?

Gr7mm Bobb
2016-11-24, 09:39 PM
Shameless self promoting. Most likely not entirely what you are looking for. But maybe it offers something new enough to be worthwhile. It is a gish style class that operates like the paladin mechanically.

Gr7mm's attempt at 5e Duskblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?431632-5e-Duskblade-PEACH)

NightDweller
2016-11-24, 11:52 PM
So far:


Any thoughts on the 5e versions of the various Swordmage Aegis powers?
Any ideas for the many empty class features?


I like most of what I see so far, and I do have some ideas but it is late for me right now so I will post them tomorrow.

Ziegander
2016-11-25, 12:02 AM
I like most of what I see so far, and I do have some ideas but it is late for me right now so I will post them tomorrow.

Cool, I appreciate it. I'm working on finishing up the the Aegis of Shielding subclass at the moment.

NightDweller
2016-11-25, 11:36 AM
Cool, I appreciate it. I'm working on finishing up the the Aegis of Shielding subclass at the moment.

The attack that the shielding aegis gets being radiant seems kind of out of place on an arcane class.

NightDweller
2016-11-25, 12:07 PM
Ideas for changes.

1) Switch investigation to Intimidation on the skills list, it fights them more thematically and it was on their list in 4e.

2) Switch them from a prepared caster to a spontaneous one. Just like the EK in 5e this class has drilled their spells over and over in order to be able to cast them on the fly this makes sense themetiaclly as they are a martial-like arcane tradation.

3) Add fighting styles as a choice in one of the other levels allowing: Great Weapon, Dueling, and Dual Wielding.

EDIT: Also willing to PM skype info to talk through that if you wish.

NightDweller
2016-11-25, 12:46 PM
Ideas for new powers for the Shielding Aegis.

Level 3: Shield Aegis: You can use your move action to select one creature within 15 ft of you. You can only have one creature selected at a time, if you select another creature with this power then the previous selected creature is no longer considered selected by this feature. If the selected creature attacks another creature within 15 ft of you, then you may use your reaction in order to make the targeted creature have disadvantage on their attack roll.

Level 7: Expansive Aegis: Your Shield Aegis power can now target creatures as a bonus action or a move action, can target up to 2 creatures. can target those creatures up to 30 ft. away, and can use a reaction to impose disadvantage on attack rolls from up to 30 ft. away.

Level 15: Aegis Backlash: When a creature targeted by your Shield Aegis hits you with an attack you can use your reaction to deal 2d10 force damage to that creature.

Level 20: Shield Aegis Mastery: You can now target up to 3 creatures with your Shield Aegis feature, can do so at up to 50 ft. away, and can impose disadvantage on them without using a reaction from up to 50 ft away.

Ziegander
2016-11-25, 04:20 PM
The attack that the shielding aegis gets being radiant seems kind of out of place on an arcane class.

Silverlight Strike? It dealt radiant damage in 4e.


Ideas for changes.

1) Switch investigation to Intimidation on the skills list, it fights them more thematically and it was on their list in 4e.

Fair enough.


2) Switch them from a prepared caster to a spontaneous one. Just like the EK in 5e this class has drilled their spells over and over in order to be able to cast them on the fly this makes sense themetiaclly as they are a martial-like arcane tradation.

I was leery about making them a prepared caster too, and I suppose I can still keep Arcane Recovery if I make them spontaneous, I'll just have to refluff it.


3) Add fighting styles as a choice in one of the other levels allowing: Great Weapon, Dueling, and Dual Wielding.

At level 6?

The biggest reason I didn't do this is because it almost makes Dueling mandatory. Since Warding gives you +3 AC while you use a rapier or a longsword, and since you can use a longsword in two hands and still get the +3 bonus to AC by simply letting go with one hand when you're done attacking, that's +3 AC with a weapon that deals 1d10 + modifier + 2 damage. Average without modifier becomes 7.5 which is higher than a greatsword and nets +2 extra AC.


Ideas for new powers for the Shielding Aegis.

Level 3: Shield Aegis: You can use your move action to select one creature within 15 ft of you. You can only have one creature selected at a time, if you select another creature with this power then the previous selected creature is no longer considered selected by this feature. If the selected creature attacks another creature within 15 ft of you, then you may use your reaction in order to make the targeted creature have disadvantage on their attack roll.

The biggest hangup we have here is that 5e doesn't have a move action. To word this properly for 5th edition would be really messy, something like, "If you have not moved on your turn, you may elect to reduce your speed to 0 until the start of your next turn and select one creature within 15ft of you." Personally, I just don't like that wording.

Second, I'm not sure how I feel about "marking" one creature and then spending your reaction to simply give an attack disadvantage. Seems mechanically boring, but then again, the 4e Aegis of Shielding was mechanically boring as well...


Level 15: Aegis Backlash: When a creature targeted by your Shield Aegis hits you with an attack you can use your reaction to deal 2d10 force damage to that creature.

I was trying to work Ward of Brilliance into the Aegis of Shielding somehow, this is a fair way of doing it.


Level 20: Shield Aegis Mastery: You can now target up to 3 creatures with your Shield Aegis feature, can do so at up to 50 ft. away, and can impose disadvantage on them without using a reaction from up to 50 ft away.

This is certainly quite powerful, nigh-automatic disadvantage on all attacks of up to three creatures against allies within 60ft of you. In fact, I'm not sure that straight, automatic disadvantage on all attacks against allies within 30ft, period, would be overpowered at 20th level. I'll mull this over.

Arkhios
2016-11-25, 05:42 PM
It's late for me to give better feedback, but Dueling Fighting Style only works when you wield a weapon in one hand, not when you wield a one-handed versatile weapon in two hands.

Nifft
2016-11-25, 07:03 PM
@Ziegander:

- Ranged cantrips are a bad idea, since they steer the class away from its canonical role.

- One to three cantrips? That seems really pathetic.

- The Swordmage will need some new spells. This list has poor fits like Burning Hands & Chromatic Orb.

- Arcane Recovery is for casters who are supposed to cast more than usual, and in particular is how Wizards & Land Druids get more spells per day than the typical full-caster. That doesn't seem like a good fit for the Swordmage.

- Extra Attack means that attack actions compete directly with cantrip attacks, and this is bad design. The special Swordmage Cantrips should be how a Swordmage participates in melee.

Ziegander
2016-11-25, 08:32 PM
@Ziegander:

- Ranged cantrips are a bad idea, since they steer the class away from its canonical role.

Does having a longbow steer a Fighter away from cleaving with his greatsword? There shouldn't be any base class that can only perform in melee combat.


- One to three cantrips? That seems really pathetic.

Paladins and Rangers get zero, so...

Meanwhile, Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters get 3.


- The Swordmage will need some new spells. This list has poor fits like Burning Hands & Chromatic Orb.

Feel free to write up new spells for the Swordmage, but I'm not going to go there.


- Arcane Recovery is for casters who are supposed to cast more than usual, and in particular is how Wizards & Land Druids get more spells per day than the typical full-caster. That doesn't seem like a good fit for the Swordmage.

Any suggestions for a replacement feature for 2nd level that's not overly powerful? I was really scraping the bottom of the barrel, but felt like at least this fit a little.


- Extra Attack means that attack actions compete directly with cantrip attacks, and this is bad design. The special Swordmage Cantrips should be how a Swordmage participates in melee.

I considered giving them War Magic at 6th level and not giving them Extra Attack at all, but Booming Blade + one bonus attack doesn't seem competitive damage-wise with other melee options. Am I wrong?

It also discourages two-weapon fighting, which I'd like to encourage.


It's late for me to give better feedback, but Dueling Fighting Style only works when you wield a weapon in one hand, not when you wield a one-handed versatile weapon in two hands.

Oh, duh, of course. Maybe it's not a bad idea, then, to replace Arcane Recovery with Fighting Style...

The more I think about it, the more I think, for the most faithful 4e to 5e conversion, we're gonna want Pact Magic slots on this. Start with your choice of any two between Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, or Sword Burst, there's your at-wills, then you've got Pact Magic slots for encounter powers, and even Mystic Arcanum for daily powers. Throw in some kind of arcane Smite analog that deals Cold, Fire, or Lightning damage, invocations can tweak the Smite or add additional Dailies (and Utilities).

Nifft
2016-11-25, 10:15 PM
Paladins and Rangers get zero, so... ... so they're a bad model? Yeah.

Paladins and Rangers are both Str-based melee characters.

Swordmage is supposed to be Int-based melee.


Feel free to write up new spells for the Swordmage, but I'm not going to go there. I feel like the spell list and the class features need some kind of synergy.

Utility spells certainly do have a place, but they're probably not bound to the same feature as basic attacks.

If I do write new spells, it'll be as a part of re-writing the whole class.


I considered giving them War Magic at 6th level and not giving them Extra Attack at all, but Booming Blade + one bonus attack doesn't seem competitive damage-wise with other melee options. I feel like neither of those is the correct choice.

They should certainly get a buff to damage at level 5, but making an additional Str-based melee attack shouldn't be that buff, since they're supposed to be Int-based melee attackers.


It also discourages two-weapon fighting, which I'd like to encourage. Is that a Swordmage fighting style from a supplement?

The ones that I played were always oriented towards one-hander combat. (In that regard, they're filling a niche that 5e lacks -- the duelist with a free hand who does fencing-like moves.)

Two-handed and two-weapon combat both already seem to be pretty well represented in Core 5e, IMHO anyway.

Ziegander
2016-11-25, 10:47 PM
... so they're a bad model? Yeah.

Paladins and Rangers are both Str-based melee characters.

Swordmage is supposed to be Int-based melee.

Okay... I just think you're going to get a lot of pushback for trying to make a fully Intelligence-based melee, half-caster, tank.


I feel like neither of those is the correct choice.

They should certainly get a buff to damage at level 5, but making an additional Str-based melee attack shouldn't be that buff, since they're supposed to be Int-based melee attackers.

Any suggestions or thoughts on exactly what kind of damage/attack buff, then? Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade scale up at 5th level already.


Is that a Swordmage fighting style from a supplement?

The ones that I played were always oriented towards one-hander combat. (In that regard, they're filling a niche that 5e lacks -- the duelist with a free hand who does fencing-like moves.)

Two-handed and two-weapon combat both already seem to be pretty well represented in Core 5e, IMHO anyway.

It's not a 4e Swordmage style that I'm aware of, no, but I'm of the opinion that designing a base class that can only be played as one sword, in one hand, in melee only is really poor base class design. So with my design I was hoping to make more options viable.

Nifft
2016-11-25, 11:14 PM
Okay... I just think you're going to get a lot of pushback for trying to make a fully Intelligence-based melee, half-caster, tank. Bladesinger already kinda did it, albeit with full-casting, and I think Swordmage would tend to be less BS than the BS. Probably it would be harder to get the BS's game-breaking AC.

What sorts of pushback do you envision?

(And why would "pushback" be a concern?)


It's not a 4e Swordmage style that I'm aware of, no, but I'm of the opinion that designing a base class that can only be played as one sword, in one hand, in melee only is really poor base class design. So with my design I was hoping to make more options viable. Okay, different goals then.

I feel like it's a fighting style that has poor support so far in 5e, and that's why it's interesting; you think that having only one fighting style is insufficient choice for a class.

Ziegander
2016-11-25, 11:40 PM
Warlock-Style table mock-up...



Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level
Utilities Known


1st
+2
Swordbond, Blade Magic
2
1
1
1st
--


2nd
+2
Swordmage Utilities, Swordmage's Warding, Eldritch Strike
2
2
1
1st
1


3rd
+2
Swordmage Aegis, Fighting Style
2
3
1
1st
1


4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
2
4
1
2nd
2


5th
+3
? ? ? ? (Damage Boost?)
2
5
1
2nd
2


6th
+3
? ? ? ?
2
6
1
3rd
2


7th
+3
Aegis Feature
2
7
2
3rd
3


8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
2
8
2
4th
3


9th
+4
? ? ? ?
2
9
2
4th
3


10th
+4
~Ribbon~
2
10
2
5th
4


11th
+4
Arcane Bladeworks
2
10
2
5th
4


12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
2
11
2
5th
4


13th
+5
Arcane Bladeworks
2
11
2
5th
5


14th
+5
Aegis Feature
2
12
3
5th
5


15th
+5
Arcane Bladeworks
2
12
3
5th
5


16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
2
13
3
5th
5


17th
+6
Arcane Bladeworks
2
13
3
5th
6


18th
+6
? ? ? ?
2
14
3
5th
6


19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement
2
14
3
5th
6


20th
+6
Aegis Feature
2
15
3
5th
6

NightDweller
2016-11-27, 02:28 PM
Sorry for my absence from the other day. But my input is that yes a swordmage would be very tanky but at the cost of not having exemplary damage output like a warlock or rouge.

FreddyNoNose
2016-11-27, 02:59 PM
wow, that class seems very cheesy to me.

NightDweller
2016-11-27, 03:12 PM
wow, that class seems very cheesy to me.

1) Read the Swordmage in the 4e forgotten realm guide.

2) Constructive criticism is welcome, petty opinions that help no one are not.

Arkhios
2016-11-27, 03:30 PM
ELDRITCH SWORDBOND
Beginning at 11th level, whenever you hit with an attack with one of your bonded weapons that attack deals 1d8 additional force damage.

I understand you wish to give extra damage of some type, and force is certainly magical, but I still wouldn't give Improved Divine Smite equivalent that added force damage on every damage roll, because force is probably the least resisted damage type and in that already very strong. Instead, I would either let the swordmage deal additional damage of the same type than their bonded sword does. Since the weapon is already considered magical for the purpose of resistance against non-magical, it's going to be pretty damn good. Or, if you want to incentivize intelligence for the class, let them add flat intelligence instead of the die roll to their attacks. At most +5 damage (without a magic item) is almost equal with the average of d8 (4.5), and frankly even if you had +2 more to intelligence score, a +6 modifier would still be pretty balanced.

Ziegander
2016-11-27, 03:32 PM
I understand you wish to give extra damage of some type, and force is certainly magical, but I still wouldn't give Improved Divine Smite equivalent that added force damage on every damage roll, because force is probably the least resisted damage type and in that already very strong. Instead, I would either let the swordmage deal additional damage of the same type than their bonded sword does. Since the weapon is already considered magical for the purpose of resistance against non-magical, it's going to be pretty damn good. Or, if you want to incentivize intelligence for the class, let them add flat intelligence instead of the die roll to their attacks. At most +5 damage (without a magic item) is almost equal with the average of d8 (4.5), and frankly even if you had +2 more to intelligence score, a +6 would still be pretty balanced.

Extra slashing/piercing damage is actually a cool idea, I like it.

Arkhios
2016-11-28, 03:38 AM
Extra slashing/piercing damage is actually a cool idea, I like it.

An idea for how to word it, maybe:

When you hit with your bonded weapon attacks, they land with such an impact that they deal additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your bonded weapon.

JBPuffin
2016-11-28, 11:55 AM
I'd recommend not going with the Warlock setup; what you have right now works for a 5e rendition of the swordmage, especially considering the differences in the way combat runs and feels in this edition. Good luck with the rest of the project at hand.

NightDweller
2016-11-28, 02:17 PM
I'd recommend not going with the Warlock setup; what you have right now works for a 5e rendition of the swordmage, especially considering the differences in the way combat runs and feels in this edition. Good luck with the rest of the project at hand.

I agree about the table.