Balancing Legendary Items

[adonis53]

Heyo! I made some legendary items, and knowing myself, they probably aren't balanced... Mainly I want them to be equal in power in comparison to each other so nobody in the party will have one more powerful than another. If anyone could give their 2 cp that would be great! Thanks in advance! :)

Original:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p-Esut18AxRWmF7ZLATOtFM55mjnoL45dhM8njlb6eU/edit?usp=sharing

Edited Version based on replies:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-EtLiOnSm2hcYbfAi0EJKLLCy0EtUtrz70QSv6LXYn8/edit?usp=sharing

[adonis53]

Bump. Anyone have any opinions? I just want to make sure that they are in tune with each other performance-wise before adding them to a game.

[Giant2005]

The first 3 look relatively balanced with one another but Windcarver is less powerful than Skyblaze (which means it is also less powerful than the other two). The problem is its damage bonus requiring a bonus action to use whereas Skyblaze's doesn't.

Worldshaper is much less powerful imo. I'd increase the bonus to spell DCs to the full 3 and give it the ability to replenish used spell slots at a rate of 3 charges per level of the spell slot replenished.

[adonis53]

The first 3 look relatively balanced with one another but Windcarver is less powerful than Skyblaze (which means it is also less powerful than the other two). The problem is its damage bonus requiring a bonus action to use whereas Skyblaze's doesn't.

Worldshaper is much less powerful imo. I'd increase the bonus to spell DCs to the full 3 and give it the ability to replenish used spell slots at a rate of 3 charges per level of the spell slot replenished.

Hmm... Do you think making it so windcarver does an extra die of base damage as well would be better or just add another die to the damage when you activate it? I just want the extended reach to require a bonus action.

Worldshaper seemed a little iffy to me, but I didn't want to add +3 to saves because that's really powerful so I only did the +1... But I guess it is a legendary item and it needs to be equal to the others. I don't think I'll let it restore slots though, because that kind of removes the whole earth-based ability of it as most people would just use it for more daily slots.

Edit: Or maybe I could also add it resistance to nonmagical slashing and/or bludgeoning for Worldshaper? I originally thought of that, but figured it'd be too powerful for a magic item.

[Giant2005]

Hmm... Do you think making it so windcarver does an extra die of base damage as well would be better or just add another die to the damage when you activate it? I just want the extended reach to require a bonus action.
Made the extra damage apply regardless of what you do, and have the bonus action trigger the reach and add some other effect like making ranged weapon attacks have disadvantage against the user.




Edit: Or maybe I could also add it resistance to nonmagical slashing and/or bludgeoning for Worldshaper? I originally thought of that, but figured it'd be too powerful for a magic item.
You definitely need to do something to empower it somewhat. All of the other items are vastly more powerful than the standard magic items in the DMG, however that items is quite a bit weaker than a simple +3 Rod of the Pact Keeper (The Rod gives the full bonus to spell DCs and gives freedom of choice regarding extra spell castings).

[adonis53]

Made the extra damage apply regardless of what you do, and have the bonus action trigger the reach and add some other effect like making ranged weapon attacks have disadvantage against the user.



You definitely need to do something to empower it somewhat. All of the other items are vastly more powerful than the standard magic items in the DMG, however that items is quite a bit weaker than a simple +3 Rod of the Pact Keeper (The Rod gives the full bonus to spell DCs and gives freedom of choice regarding extra spell castings).

Do you think adding an AC bonus +2 and the earth elemental earth glide ability would be too strong? Also I'll add Stoneskin as a cast able spell with it.

[Giant2005]

Do you think adding an AC bonus +2 and the earth elemental earth glide ability would be too strong? Also I'll add Stoneskin as a cast able spell with it.

No, I think that would be much more comparable with the other items.
Looks good to me.

[adonis53]

No, I think that would be much more comparable with the other items.
Looks good to me.

Alrighty. Thanks for your help. :)

A little off topic, what's your opinion on item upgrades based on certain triggers?

Like with Windcarver, you'd have to defeat, but not necessarily kill, a djinni single-handedly using the blade. It would unlock some sort of extra ability.

I'm tempted to add hidden triggers like this to each item that the character could accidentally find or they could research via books and legends for what they have to do.

[furby076]

I love equipment that grows with the character. It makes it so the character doesn't dump the weapon for a new toy (e.g., you sell a +2 longsword because you just found a vorpal sword. Makes sense...except the +2 longsword is a family heirloom that has been in your family for hundreds of years). So having equipment level up is awesome, and I am a fan of one piece of equipment following the character. For this I would do several things:
1) Questing is good (e.g., your killing a djinn)
2) Sacrificing similar equipment into it (balance so the group doesn't have too many goodies). Example, if the player wants the flaming property - maybe they have to use a flaming sword to kill a djinn, and then use a master dwarven weapon smith to forge the flaming sword and the players "legacy" sword together
3) Make sure it's not overkill for your campaign
4) Ask the player what they want, or really have a good bead on what they need

For example, in the 3.5 pathfinder game I played. My character found a spear at about level 5. +1 Morphing Spear. There were some abilities I wanted on it (e.g. ghost touch, holy), and the DM thought it would be great to have swift fly, cure critical (sword could activate it), lucky, and 2x smite damage - because through the years he saw many instances where those abilities would have been great for my character

It ended up growing to be this by level 20:
The Endless Blade
Holy Avenger, Morphing (typically 2-h Falchion), Holy (+2d6 dmg, +4d6 vs evil), Ghost Touch, Swift Fly 2x/day, Cure Critical 2x/day, Lucky 1/day reroll failed attack, 2x smite damage, Calling (hid in my characters Arm of Nyr)
*Weapon of Exorcist/Good/Law/Silver/Flame/Sacred Flame), Crystal of Energy Assault (Greater) Cold 1d6, -10 speed to opponent when hit
Int =?, Wis =?, Cha =?, AL = CG, Telepathic and verbal communication (it was a very snarky weapon, and was adamant about having long conversations at night with our Warforged Scout)

[adonis53]

I love equipment that grows with the character. It makes it so the character doesn't dump the weapon for a new toy (e.g., you sell a +2 longsword because you just found a vorpal sword. Makes sense...except the +2 longsword is a family heirloom that has been in your family for hundreds of years). So having equipment level up is awesome, and I am a fan of one piece of equipment following the character. For this I would do several things:
1) Questing is good (e.g., your killing a djinn)
2) Sacrificing similar equipment into it (balance so the group doesn't have too many goodies). Example, if the player wants the flaming property - maybe they have to use a flaming sword to kill a djinn, and then use a master dwarven weapon smith to forge the flaming sword and the players "legacy" sword together
3) Make sure it's not overkill for your campaign
4) Ask the player what they want, or really have a good bead on what they need

For example, in the 3.5 pathfinder game I played. My character found a spear at about level 5. +1 Morphing Spear. There were some abilities I wanted on it (e.g. ghost touch, holy), and the DM thought it would be great to have swift fly, cure critical (sword could activate it), lucky, and 2x smite damage - because through the years he saw many instances where those abilities would have been great for my character

It ended up growing to be this by level 20:
The Endless Blade
Holy Avenger, Morphing (typically 2-h Falchion), Holy (+2d6 dmg, +4d6 vs evil), Ghost Touch, Swift Fly 2x/day, Cure Critical 2x/day, Lucky 1/day reroll failed attack, 2x smite damage, Calling (hid in my characters Arm of Nyr)
*Weapon of Exorcist/Good/Law/Silver/Flame/Sacred Flame), Crystal of Energy Assault (Greater) Cold 1d6, -10 speed to opponent when hit
Int =?, Wis =?, Cha =?, AL = CG, Telepathic and verbal communication (it was a very snarky weapon, and was adamant about having long conversations at night with our Warforged Scout)
Well I'm definitely limiting it haha. I won't have it consume other items either. Maybe for the Hoarfrost Mantle you'd have to venture to the plane of ice and survive with no assistance(magical or otherwise) for a set amount of time... A month maybe.

Fulfilling these quests would end in the item "unlocking" and some feature that was hidden is now revealed. Such as the Hoarfrost Mantle making the wearer immune to cold instead of resistant and also giving them some other active ability.

So coming up with one active and one passive upgrade for each unlocked item:
Hoarfrost Mantle: Cold Immunity(Increased from resistance); Otiluke's Freezing Sphere at 7th level once/day
Skyblaze: Fire Resistance; Cast fire shield as a bonus action once/day - no concentration required
Stormwarden Plate: Immunity to Thunder/Lightning(Increased from resistance); Elemental Weapon at 4th level lightning/thunder only once/day - no concentration required
Windcarver: Additional 1d10 slashing while the blade is extended; Cast Whirlwind once/day
Worldshaper: Charges increased to 25 max and restores 1d8+4 per day instead; Stoneskin self only once/day - no concentration required

[adonis53]

Hoarfrost Mantle: Cold Immunity(Increased from resistance); Otiluke's Freezing Sphere at 7th level once/day
Skyblaze: Fire Resistance; Cast fire shield as a bonus action once/day - no concentration required
Stormwarden Plate: Immunity to Thunder/Lightning(Increased from resistance); Elemental Weapon at 4th level lightning/thunder only once/day - no concentration required
Windcarver: Additional 1d10 slashing while the blade is extended; Cast Whirlwind once/day
Worldshaper: Charges increased to 25 max and restores 1d8+4 per day instead; Stoneskin self only once/day - no concentration required

There, I think they're somewhat even with one another. I tried to keep it so any buffs were level four and didn't require concentration and any attack-type spells were level 7 once/day use with concentration if they had it. And the passives should be fairly balance although the extra 1d10 on Windcarver might be a bit much and the immunity to two types, even if they're less common, for Stormwarden Plate may be a little much.

[Giant2005]

Alrighty. Thanks for your help. :)

A little off topic, what's your opinion on item upgrades based on certain triggers?

Like with Windcarver, you'd have to defeat, but not necessarily kill, a djinni single-handedly using the blade. It would unlock some sort of extra ability.

I'm tempted to add hidden triggers like this to each item that the character could accidentally find or they could research via books and legends for what they have to do.

I think that is a great idea. I wouldn't give them extra abilities though, I'd just add required conditions to unlock some of the abilities you have already statted up.

[adonis53]

I think that is a great idea. I wouldn't give them extra abilities though, I'd just add required conditions to unlock some of the abilities you have already statted up.

True... if you had to pick one ability for each item what would it be?
Maybe the extend for windcarver, earth glide for worldshaper, the skyblaze arrow for skyblaze, the area burst from stormwarden, and the cold effect when touched from Hoarfrost?

I think those would be good ones to keep "hidden" until it is triggered.

[Giant2005]

True... if you had to pick one ability for each item what would it be?
Maybe the extend for windcarver, earth glide for worldshaper, the skyblaze arrow for skyblaze, the area burst from stormwarden, and the cold effect when touched from Hoarfrost?

I think those would be good ones to keep "hidden" until it is triggered.

Sounds good to me.
Although I would personally hide more than just those abilities. I would hide most of the abilities and even consider making multiple versions of some of them (an easily unlocked weak version, a medium version, and a hard to unlock strong version).
I play in a game where a DM just hands us super powerful artifacts like they are candy and it isn't much fun. It denies the player their sense of accomplishment, and that sense of accomplishment is a big part of why games like this are fun in the first place.
If you hide most of the abilities, then the players can accomplish more by unlocking more of them.

[adonis53]

Sounds good to me.
Although I would personally hide more than just those abilities. I would hide most of the abilities and even consider making multiple versions of some of them (an easily unlocked weak version, a medium version, and a hard to unlock strong version).
I play in a game where a DM just hands us super powerful artifacts like they are candy and it isn't much fun. It denies the player their sense of accomplishment, and that sense of accomplishment is a big part of why games like this are fun in the first place.
If you hide most of the abilities, then the players can accomplish more by unlocking more of them.

Well these are late game quest rewards, so I don't want them to feel unsatisfying when they get them. I don't want to give it all in one go though.